I've got my popcorn ready for this one.

This made me chuckle. We a GIF now. On my phone so I'm too lazy!

By the way, starting threads on this forum about powercranks is technically banned. Just don't start a thread saying you were lifting weights, with Lance and the two of you went for a powercranks ride with Hincapie, and Travis Tygart saw you guys not using blood bags.
Dev

I can echo Sam's comments about Powercranks. I wouldn't ride without them. Love them. I think the key is to use them when tired. Everyone can use them when they are fresh, the key is when you are dead tired do you opt for a bike without PCs because you are dreading the use of Powercranks? That is IMO when you really get strong and break thru performance barriers. At some point, PCs just become normal.

I've got my popcorn ready for this one.

By the way, starting threads on this forum about powercranks is technically banned. Just don't start a thread saying you were lifting weights, with Lance and the two of you went for a powercranks ride with Hincapie, and Travis Tygart saw you guys not using blood bags.
Dev

This made me chuckle. We need a GIF now. On my phone so I'm too lazy!

As far as I am concerned, I will never ever bike without powercranks.

For A-races, I usually switch to fixed cranks 3-4 days before the race.

So you race with them as well?

They appeal intuitively to people because part of the mythos of cycling is that a smooth, round pedal stroke is efficient. Thus it seems plausible that power cranks could force your body to adopt a more smooth, round pedal stroke where power is applied more evenly around the pedal circle.

Unfortunately, reality is that this idea has been thoroughly investigated and there is no evidence that evenly applying the power around the pedal stroke is more efficient, nor do the worlds best cyclist have round pedal stroke even if they think they do. ( lab and real world in agreement in other words)

It is an aerobic sport and pushing down, not pulling back or up, is actually the most efficient way to use your oxygen.

So anyway of course people suggest all kinds of indirect benefits because it is hard to cognitively accept something you have bought into is completely pointless. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/...oice-supportive_bias )

Heck, worst case, they won't hurt your power long-term,

and you might even realize some gains in collateral sports. Just be patient with their use.

I can echo Sam's comments about Powercranks. I wouldn't ride without them. Love them. I think the key is to use them when tired. Everyone can use them when they are fresh, the key is when you are dead tired do you opt for a bike without PCs because you are dreading the use of Powercranks? That is IMO when you really get strong and break thru performance barriers. At some point, PCs just become normal.

Reading this thread, I think I just time traveled 10 years ago.

Well I don't know what you mean by conventional training methods.

Reading this thread, I think I just time traveled 10 years ago.

I don't think one can even make that claim. Using them results in an opportunity cost (time spent training and money) that most likely would have been better spent on other things.

Of course one can. Also can say this about a whole lot of things that multisport athletes do.





Better than gains available through simply training for that other sport? I very much doubt it.

I don't think one can even make that claim. Using them results in an opportunity cost (time spent training and money) that most likely would have been better spent on other things.



Better than gains available through simply training for that other sport? I very much doubt it.

Well I don't know what you mean by conventional training methods.

??? If I ride for 2 hours @ 200w on PC or 2 hours @ 200w on standard cranks, why is my time on PC's not "training"?

Not making any claims about improved training.....just straight up comparison between time and watts.

You might not be making such claims, but others are and have. So if the training is not improved, or the outcome of training not improved, why would anyone spend their hard earned on such a thing?

As for time and watts, how long before you were attaining the same chronic workload using such cranks? I'm assuming you were not a few hours a week kind of rider, but someone doing decent volume of training.

I'm unconvinced on the PCs fixing a muscle imbalance claim, but that's an anecdote in any case and it's impossible to sensibly ascribe such causation without control.

Is this based on your time using PC's? How long did you ride on them?

I'm unconvinced on the PCs fixing a muscle imbalance claim, but that's an anecdote in any case and it's impossible to sensibly ascribe such causation without control.

Do you also have BB30 and one of their converters?

True. As soon as you try to have something nice, people try to put Powercranks on it.

By the way, I know if Frank was on here, he'd tell me to stop worrying about riding at high RPM and when I ride my bike for TT purposes, I'll just let the RPM self select ad probably gravitate down to 80 RPM for IM and 85 RPM for half IM, but for now, this is more of a coordination restoration effort.

I personally find high RPM training on PC's to be very taxing (hard to maintain) even with relatively low power output. However on a fixed gear (track bike) high inertia setup I find it relatively easy to maintain RPM's above 110 for extended periods.

So my new training strategy is to do PC at low (40-60) and intermediate (70-90) RPM's and do my high RPM (100-120) on my fixed gear.

Reading this thread, I think I just time traveled 10 years ago.

and still no credible study after all these years and nearly 500 pages of history on ST. Its just hard to not log into these threads when they've provided us such comic relief over the years ..... wasn't it a promise of 40% power increase ;-) ;-) ;-)
Dave

Better yet .... do ALL of us a favor and quit posting anecdotal garbage ... anecdote is just anecdote. If FD has data to share ... he should come share it. Glad you like your PCs ;-)
Dave

Another example of wasted research time, incomplete and misleading.

Yes, we should just take your observations as a given Noel.

If you knew why non counterweighted single leg pedalling was less efficient, you would understand the reason for my post.

I do know, it's been quite well researched as have many other forms of pedalling.
.

Awww, geez... I leave you guys alone for a while, and this is what happens? A Gizmocrank(tm) thread?
(shakes head)

I've used PC's for almost 2 years now and prefer training with them over solid cranks.

You mentioned the contradiction of engaging more muscle groups with PC being less efficient for endurance. You're right, but that misses the usefulness of training with PC's. When training on them your , what I'll refer to as support muscles, are trained and built up. When racing or riding on a solid crank the primary muscles are used but now the support group are stronger and able to take some more stress and for me, increase my endurance. ..

Running. Wish I could find my notebook, but two months time I went from around a 9:05 avg pace on the same 11 mile run to a 6:50 pace. When I started that I hadn't run in months and was only on PC's. Also only did that one long run each week. Prior to that I never had done a long run faster than 8:20. I was also 49 years old so usually running performance is hard to get back much less improve.

Biking. I rode and trained with some fast guys in Arizona but no matter what I did it seemed I was going to stay a 20 mile per hour rider. One year of training with PC's on a trainer I did a ride and 30 miles in I had almost a 24 me avg. Even stopped to make sure there wasn't a tailwind. Climbs I used grind out I can shift through gears.

IMO any study shorter than 4-6 months won't show anything other what they have shown. For the first few months I was worthless on the bike because I had stressed those support muscles so much. But after that improved, biking and running showed modest gains.

Ok, let's see it.

Or you just train the muscles that you use to push the pedals down to do the job required as everyone else does. Cycling is not a strength sport. To produce more power you simply produce more power. The question is how long you can sustain this not building or recruiting more muscle. Training for endurance sport is about building energy stores, energy pathways and learning to use what you have more efficiently.


Runs counter to the study that measured running performance.



Runs counter to several studies measuring cycling performance.



INMO a quick glance through most of the performance enhancement literature in the last 100 years interventions as short as two weeks or total training volumes as little as 16min in a two week period have led to huge improvements in performance. Why would independent cranks be any different.

Why are you so anti-power cranks? Some people say they improved their performance….cool. Why the need for NASA to be involved and a scientific study, and why the hate for PC's? Did you have a falling out with the company?

Did you have anything to add to the debate?


I have used them for a year and they have helped.

I have used them for a year and they have helped.

INMO a quick glance through most of the performance enhancement literature in the last 100 years interventions as short as two weeks or total training volumes as little as 16min in a two week period have led to huge improvements in performance. Why would independent cranks be any different.

My money is on your imagination.

This is my experience with using powercranks for more than 4 years. I am a medical doctor. I am 53 years old; 5'8"; lifted heavy weights for 20 years and my weight often was around 220. I stopped lifting heavy about 5 years ago. I still weight train a little and run and swim. My goal is to do a 1/2 ironman this summer and possibly a full ironman in the fall. I intend to get my weight down to 175 or less but I am getting fairly lean at 193.

I am usually riding 6 hours a week or less but for several months I might put in more time and mileage. I am usually "hammering" when I get on the road. A lot of my rides are 15-30 miles and I may put in several 50+ mile rides in a month. Some winters, I stop cycling for 1-3 months.

I went to power cranks in about May, five years ago. I did most of my training on them until about three months ago. Before using powercranks, I did one leg drills and thought I was "spinning" for 25 years. However, read a lot of reviews and was ready for some torture. My first day on powercranks, I almost didn't venture outside of the parking lot but road about 6 miles in 30+ minutes. After the first minute or two, I was limited to coasting between several strokes or alternating 5-10 slow strokes, one leg at a time. I felt muscles in the legs and pelvis and back that I never used before. I had muscles pain that I never had before. I was hooked!!! I committed to doing all of my training on power cranks. Unfortunately, training on these cranks were so difficult that I lost my cardio fitness that year. I could not physically or mentally train at the previous volume. I could not stand up on the pedals well. I lost strength in my quads. I could not maintain a decent cadence for more than a few seconds. I did a lot of riding alternating legs But, I'm stubborn.

I stopped cycling for most of the winter and in the spring I needed to relearn using the cranks. I built up my mileage pretty well the second year but still had extra muscles pain after a ride and became almost as fast as I was on regular cranks. The third spring after "resting" through the winter, the cranks felt natural after about the first day or two. I concentrated on standing on the pedals. I became strong again but did not make any breakthroughs in my speed. That Labor Day weekend, I had a heart attack -- while on the bike; lost a chunk of my heart and damaged a third of the heart muscle. I continued to ride powercranks and the fourth summer I was as strong as ever on a bike, but I as loosing my coordination on regular cranks. The same was true of the fifth summer and I started going back to regular cranks intermittently. I could finally ride at a cadence of 80-90 for an extended period.

The last few months, I am going back to regular cranks about 3/4 of my training (mostly inside through the winter). I believe that I will be faster this year.



Other issues: 1) The end caps can get stuck and I have one stuck and will send it back to powercranks to see if they can get it off. 2) The caps can loosen and fall off during a ride and leave the crank hanging from your foot (I carry a large hex wrench and an extra cap with me most of the time but you can ride carefully without the cap and get home). 3) The crank arms seem a little more likely to loosen from the bottome bracket than regular cranks. 4) The washers and mechanism that attach the pedals to the arms bend and get loose and I have had two sets chip where the pedals attach.

These aggravations can ruin days of training or potential training.


My opinion, as one who has read extensively about powercranks for 5 years and road them regularly: Don't expect a miracle. I think that working the extra muscles will help balance your pushing muscles and help with core strength. I expect they are especially beneficial for improving running and grinding out the hills in a higher gear. I had calf strains while running the year before I started using power cranks and have not had any since. I broke my back in 1993 and although I had some back pain with power cranks, I thought they helped with it.

Advice: Give them a try but keep a regular bike ready to ride if there is a mechanical issue or you do not have the will to ride them that day. Use them for maybe 1/4 to 1/2 of your training time until your body is adapting to them and you understand how they work with your body and style. Otherwise, you will likely loose strength in your quads and your training time will decrease and cardio will worsen. You might loose your coordination with regular cranks.

Disclaimer: This is the experience of an under-trained, over-muscled, overweight, old guy who is trying to go from a power athlete to an endurance athlete.

I think my heavy legs and thighs made powercranks particularly difficult, especially in regard to keeping a high cadence. This year, I plan to do most of my training on conventional cranks. However, I am buying a new set of entry level powercranks with several pedal positions and intend to experiment with shorter crank lengths to get in a better time trial position. The entry level cranks do not have the problematic adjustment system of most of the powercranks.