3) If you are swimming at a decent tempo DO NOT IMMEDIATELY GO TO BREAST STROKE! All of a sudden I'm drafting off of someone at a good clip and then my face goes into your ass.....C'mon people let's go!

Bravo. I sincerely applaud your non-offensive rebuttal! Unusual around these parts.


True, it would help all of us pass this wisdom along to the less experienced athletes. Maybe something to add to the athlete's guide / pre-race meetings

Redog wrote:

This guy did not even make it into the top ten of the 45-50 AG. Just checked his race result.
Probably swam breast stroke most of the way.

We need to make this post sticky....and I honestly mean that as a compliment. Thank you for your race report.

What a putz!

Ok so you're younger and faster and you have absolutely no idea how hard it is for an older AG. Boo Hoo. You haven't bothered to find out how fast performance drops off with age,(but you will kiddo) but you're pissed because they got in your way. Since when did they start the Pros and/or Elites in the last wave. You're an also ran like the rest of us, get over yourself.


What a winner you are. Did you get a medal, have you framed it. How cute. Your mommy must be proud.

Hoser

Besides, what/who gives?
We payed for doing whatever we want. That is the single most ignorant comment I have seen in years.
Who do these people think they are.
The police?

This just a genaral response to this and all the other threads like it....

Why is it,that every time someone points out things that happen in a race that bugs then or to them needs mentioning they are immediately slammed down as being an asshole or an elitist?

Why is it that every time someone who is faster than most of the field mentions that they hate having to swim and bike through crowds some tool immediately say "You don't like racing with us,get an Elite Card"..

Why is it that the slower people can't accept the fact that everything this guy said actually happens and yes it is a pain in the ass.That doesn't make everyone who points it out an asshole.That just means he is telling people his experiences.

Why is it that so many people come here to ST to learn how to improve their times and get faster but then slam down the people who have done precisely that and are now struggling to deal with a whole new series of problems that they never knew exsisted.

Now as for all the negativety toward the OP..

Why the hell are you all giving him shit for stating what actually happens to faster people in crowded races...It is not like he called beginners or slower people fucking useless retards...No he didn't did he?..He didn't call anyone idiots who don't don't have a clue how to race in groups...He didn't say that it seems that these days the faster folks seem to be expected to forgo all the training they have done to tiptoe around a bunch of "special people" who while exercising their rights to compete in said event don't exercise any common sense while doing so...

There are two sides to every story and maybe.......just maybe....some of the slower people should just take a deep breath and realise that, just as some of the reckless tactics of the faster people is selfish and dangerous the very same thing can be said of the slower people.The difference is that the slower people just don't see how dangerous and selfish they can be as well.


---

Thank you for your post.

One year during the swim of IM Augusta, the 25-29 males started two waves behind the 35-39 females. Nothing like having a younger man swim over me. Seriously, I could tell that the chilly water did not bother him much....

If you are going to participate in triathlon, please learn USAT regs and a little course courtesy. Tri responsibly!!!

Ours is an interesting sport because in swim training we have fast,medium and slow lanes to break up the talent levels and reduce potential of injury and confrontation between different abilities..

On the road we have different classifications in cycling cpmpetitions to seperate the different ability and skill levels in order to make things fair and safe for all..We also tend to train with people of our own ability and would not expect newbies to jump in among experienced cyclists,nor would we expect better cyclists to have to worry about inexperienced riders potentially causing accidents during our training rides.

On the running track,slower runners are asked to move to the outside lanes to allow the faster runners to train on the inside..On the trails when someone is about to pass it is common courtesy for the slower runners to step off the trail and let those coming through to pass..

So,when we have all of this ingrained in our heads during every day of training then why is it unreasonable to be frustrated when the same rules,safety procedures and courtesies are thrown out the window on race day..


===

Ours is an interesting sport because in swim training we have fast,medium and slow lanes to break up the talent levels and reduce potential of injury and confrontation between different abilities..

On the road we have different classifications in cycling cpmpetitions to seperate the different ability and skill levels in order to make things fair and safe for all..We also tend to train with people of our own ability and would not expect newbies to jump in among experienced cyclists,nor would we expect better cyclists to have to worry about inexperienced riders potentially causing accidents during our training rides.

On the running track,slower runners are asked to move to the outside lanes to allow the faster runners to train on the inside..On the trails when someone is about to pass it is common courtesy for the slower runners to step off the trail and let those coming through to pass..

So,when we have all of this ingrained in our heads during every day of training then why is it unreasonable to be frustrated when the same rules,safety procedures and courtesies are thrown out the window on race day..


===

what are you talking about? The original poster is not in that age group and in fact went faster than, if my math is accurate, 90 percent of the racing field.

I follow his posts on ST and have never found him to back door brag or be elitist. If anything, he's quite humble for his actual performances.
I agree with 70% of his observations, and yes going in the later waves sucks ass. Whether you are fast, semi fast or slow(but fast enough to have to be stuck some of the jack assess i observed on the road)

Thank you for your post.

One year during the swim of IM Augusta, the 25-29 males started two waves behind the 35-39 females. Nothing like having a younger man swim over me. Seriously, I could tell that the chilly water did not bother him much....

If you are going to participate in triathlon, please learn USAT regs and a little course courtesy. Tri responsibly!!!

He has a point about the breastrokers and the people riding too far to the left. However, most of this could be avoided by careful choice of races. Now that there are more races and many more participants, you should be able to anticipate the races that get more newbies. Not fool proof, but if the race is advertised on some of the charities' web sites, they probably will have a good proportion of newbies. Glad to have the charities and their efforts to bring people into the sport, plus thank god if I or my relatives ever get the disease. But you can often figure out which races to do. And you can nicely call out and advise, 'good morning, I am going to pass you on your left since you are riding far left.' I realize you are very swift and do not have time to mess with these folks, but courtesy and the few seconds it takes will not ruin your race time.

No, that's when I sped up and passed him....

Agreed that things won't be perfect, but it goes both ways on the lack of courtesy and lack of compliance front for both fast and not so fast folks. What ultratriguy is saying is that whenever the perspective of the faster guy is tabled, the perspective is beaten down as elitest and selfish. Both sides have some role in making events both safer and more enjoyable for both sides....as the saying goes, it takes 2 hands to clap. A fast guy probably won't be a prick on the road if the slower folks are not riding 4 abreast. Likewise the slower folks probably won't be irate and hurl back insults to the fast guy if he/she is kind enough to graciously ask for some passing space and then do the pass safely.

In general, I've found that the guys who are really fast have been welcoming of all participants. I've raced now for every year for 27 years, and by and large the really fast guys have gone out of their way to ask me and others who "grew up through the ranks" about our progress, racing, and experience. They have wanted us to be in the sport. Over time, largely because of people like that, I became a slightly faster age grouper and was able to do the same. Now I'm the slowing older guy getting passed a lot (mainly on the run). But we all have the opportunity to make the sport more welcoming no matter where we fit into the spectrum.

As the sport has grown over 27 years, I have frankly seen more selfishness from both new participants and established/experienced folks than I had in the past. That's understandable, because going back into the 1980's and early 90's, the sport was a bit more fringe, and in essence it attracted a slightly different crowd of "newbies" who were probably already more athletic. If I look at my IMC 1991 results, most of the field were 25-34 year old.

Now most of the field is 35-49 year olds. For some reason, you'd think that this crowd should be less selfish than 25-34, but surprisingly I have not seen that in real life on courses.

The sport has aged in terms of composition and we're getting more folks who are entering sport as a means to change their lives (in a positive way). When you go from fringe and fairly hard core to more of a mass participation activity, there will be different groups with a different mindset about what the sport means to them. As society has become less civil somewhat due to the internet, it seems we have taken this same behaviour to the streets in our cars and as triathlon has grown, that behaviour has spilled over to our sport. That's just the way things are.

So its not entirely surprising what we see in the mass participation events, however, that does not mean that we can't endeavour to influence the behaviour of our peers on the race course be they fast or slow. Slower athletes, stick to the right and pre emptively offer up a passing lane to faster athletes. Faster athletes, courteously announce your presence and if it is in the water, don't swim over someone as that someone is a person's mother, father, daughter or son. You would not like somone to do the same to a person in your own family.

Dev

1) If you are a less experiences swimmer learn how to swim in a straight line. I know it's not an easy thing to master, but it's not that hard to learn that a straight line is a shorter swimming distance than making a continuous "Z" pattern. Which leads me to #2...


As a former zig-zagger, I assure you that no one needs you to point out that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line.

2) If you know you are a slower swimmer...please stay to the right of the swim course. It's better for everyone. Leads me to #3....


Now that I can swim straight, I swim for the next buoy. Sorry if I'm in your way.

3) If you are swimming at a decent tempo DO NOT IMMEDIATELY GO TO BREAST STROKE! All of a sudden I'm drafting off of someone at a good clip and then my face goes into your ass.....C'mon people let's go!


Lots of people switch to breast stroke to sight (so they can address #1). I've never felt they owe me anything if I'm drafting off them.

....

8) Don't try to act like your saving yourself for the last 1/2 of the race. If I'm passing you just accept it. It gets old passing people who try to stay with you because they don't like getting passed. Then you see them at an out and back walking cause they obviously overcooked themselves.


So what? I don't see this as a safety issue.


10) After the race keep the food line going! Some of us are hungry!

Use the VIP line.

---

“Read the transcript.”

I never said it didn't go both ways. I am advocating education for triathletes, so hopefully, most of us, fast or slow, will abide by the same rules and make it a smoother experience for all. But I am also saying that slow doesn't equal newbie or rule-breaker, and you can't argue that there are not quite a few posts against the new/slow athlete on this particular forum. Also...you ski, Dev...and know that you yield to the skier in front of you, as they don't have eyes in the back of their heads. Though not exactly the same in triathlon, as bikers need to be to the right to allow faster riders to get by (and there is no position rule that I am aware of for the run, so slower people can take the tangents if they choose), a passing rider or runner cannot reasonably expect the person in front of them to have eyes in the back of their head, so a little heads up from the passing cyclist is sometimes in order. I say 'sometimes' because I don't even want to get into that argument where some on this forum claim that every time they say 'on your left' the rider being passed moves left.

...and then the kind gentleman exclaimed 'you call out on your left and then pass me on my right, whats your problem asshole' while i passed him... am i not being courteous? is there something more i should be doing? or perhaps is it not absurd to think people can and should follow a direction as simple as ride on the right?

chasec wrote:

This is far more insightful than the OPs self righteous rant against all those who are perceived inferior to him. Honestly, if you are that great - get your elite card, I'm sure you won't encounter many of these problems in that group of athletes.

One woman had the entire road to herself, and was about 6 feet from the right. She wasn't passing anyone. When I told her to move over, she yelled back to me "I'm not riding in the dirt". It was crappy pavement, but we were dealing with that the entire way.

Try starting at the back of a 100+ rider cyclocross race.
I takes skill to work your way thru the crowd. Skill gets you thru the crowd safely, complaining is an excuse for a poor performance.

Michael

I understand your comments, but unfortunately, if you read my comment (grammatical mistakes and all) at no time did I bemoan being old, I just said there is a natural fall of in performance with age. Someone who is twenty years my junior will and should expect, to out race me. Which means at some point they might have to pass me. Complaining about it just makes them look silly. To pick isolated incidents, which in twenty years of racing I encounter infrequently and to blame it on having to put up with newby Ag'ers in late waves is just selfish. Like it or not that is the reality, whether you race a Sprint or an Ironman. However to swim over someone, because you haven't bothered to sight a clear path, or to ride inside to pass on the bike is just plain dumb and dangerous. The OP complaining about walkers, means they weren't that fast as they haven't passed all the slow ones, so where's the beef?

However, here's a solution, where I race they allow faster Ag's to start in the Elite wave (although I never have...aaah) and perhaps the OP should get themselves to a level where they can start there. Problem solved. Otherwise he should find a solitary sport. We have a term for that, but as you're a lady, I won't mention it!

As for being a dude, I have never been near a horse ranch in my life. :0)

Granted the OP is a bit critical, it's not a matter of people being inferior, it's a matter of people not knowing what they're doing and forgetting there are other people on the course and what they're doing is dangerous to themselves and everyone else. It's amazing how many unprepared/under-trained people I see. I learned everything I possibly could about triathlons before even doing a sprint.

Old geezer hint: don't swim for the next buoy. Swim for the buoy that is furthest to the side opposite the direction of the next turn. So if the swim course is clockwise, always aim for the buoy furthest to the left.

huh?

The buoys lining the inside of the swim course are rarely in a straight line, so swimming from buoy to buoy isn't the shortest path. At any given point, you should determine the furthest buoy you can see that is to the outside of your next turn: if the next turn is a left, then look for the rightmost buoy and head for that.

Thank you for your post.

One year during the swim of IM Augusta, the 25-29 males started two waves behind the 35-39 females. Nothing like having a younger man swim over me. Seriously, I could tell that the chilly water did not bother him much....

If you are going to participate in triathlon, please learn USAT regs and a little course courtesy. Tri responsibly!!!

Did Vineman yesterday. I like how they have it setup to where all the AG waves are scrambled every year to make it a little more fair to everyone, especially when it's hot later in the day.

That unfortunately put my usual first to third wave start (25 male) almost two hours after the first wave of the morning. Definitely a new experience for me. Holy hell they're some down sides to starting so much later...

As a person who is rarely see's the course when it is at it's highest capacity I learn some things yesterday. Here's a few things to rant about...mostly about less experiences AG'rs....

1) If you are a less experiences swimmer learn how to swim in a straight line. I know it's not an easy thing to master, but it's not that hard to learn that a straight line is a shorter swimming distance than making a continuous "Z" pattern. Which leads me to #2...

2) If you know you are a slower swimmer...please stay to the right of the swim course. It's better for everyone. Leads me to #3....

3) If you are swimming at a decent tempo DO NOT IMMEDIATELY GO TO BREAST STROKE! All of a sudden I'm drafting off of someone at a good clip and then my face goes into your ass.....C'mon people let's go!

Onto the bike....

4) When in doubt stay on the right side of the road! If I had a quarter for every time I had more room to pass on the right than on the left of someone I could've paid for my sure to be medical fees for crashing from one of these loons.

5) Know how to bike BEFORE the race. There was this one girl in front of me who not took a terrible left turn (took up the whole road and braking way more than needed). Not only did she take up the whole lane when doing this, but she made a bad shift and dropped her chain. She then just stopped on the road! Right in the middle! This was a part of the road where the left lane was full of cars that were stopped waiting to pass when there was lack of riders. So I had to pass on the right of her (while almost riding into the dirt embankment) while another passed on the left. And #6, which is related....

6) If you can't climb....just walk your bike up. I know Chalk Hill is a grinder, especially that far into the race, but that doesn't give you the right to do zig zags all over the right lane cause you don't have the bike strength or totally chose the wrong gear choices for the race. It's annoying and dangerous....just walk and stay out of our way. It's less embarrassing than looking like a fool all over the road.

7) If you have to make a pit stop at one of the bike aid stations to go to the restroom please take your bike off the road. This is a part of the course where us people who choose not to stop need to get close to the volunteers on the right side of the road to get hydration/nutrition.

Now onto the run. Boy the roads get crowded at this point of the race.

8) Don't try to act like your saving yourself for the last 1/2 of the race. If I'm passing you just accept it. It gets old passing people who try to stay with you because they don't like getting passed. Then you see them at an out and back walking cause they obviously overcooked themselves.

9) If you're going to be taking every water, ice, gatorade cup at an aid station...just goto the table instead of taking every volunteers cup. Some of us actually know what we want at a station and will be on out own way. These poor volunteers spinning around and around trying to make sure they help everyone who needs it doesn't need you just taking stuff and dropping it cause you can't say "Water".

And #10...I Didn't plan for this to be a 'Top 10' List, but I'll leave it here.

10) After the race keep the food line going! Some of us are hungry!


To all you AGr's who every race have deal with all this bs, you now have my sympathy.

I think the correct term is "race".

Many of your points advocate for mass start races.

1) If you are a less experiences swimmer learn how to swim in a straight line. I know it's not an easy thing to master, but it's not that hard to learn that a straight line is a shorter swimming distance than making a continuous "Z" pattern. Which leads me to #2... How is this a problem for you?. The only way this is a problem is if you are so slow that the zig zagging person still manages to bump you on each zig and zag. Or, you just have a knack for being in the wrong place for every person zig zagging out there.

2) If you know you are a slower swimmer...please stay to the right of the swim course. It's better for everyone. No, it's better for you. It's better for them to stay on the left, becuase it's the shortest route (see your note above.) And, presumably you are on the left side of the course - if so, then how are you being bothered by zig zaggers? If you are on the inside lane, then are they zig zagging out of bounds? .Leads me to #3....

3) If you are swimming at a decent tempo DO NOT IMMEDIATELY GO TO BREAST STROKE! All of a sudden I'm drafting off of someone at a good clip and then my face goes into your ass.....C'mon people let's go! Translation - Dear everyone in front of me - it's your job to make my swim easier - don't do anything that would make it harder for me to mooch off your effort. And is there any other way to go to breast stroke? Is there some internationally accepted intermediate stroke between freestyle and breast stroke to alert people to stop drafting? The person breast stroking could easily post: "Dear drafting person, you should be watching my feet when you draft so you can see if I suddenly stop or slow down. I think you are cute and all, but I don't want your head up my ass."

Onto the bike....
5) Know how to bike BEFORE the race. There was this one girl in front of me who not took a terrible left turn (took up the whole road and braking way more than needed). Not only did she take up the whole lane when doing this, but she made a bad shift and dropped her chain. She then just stopped on the road! Right in the middle! This was a part of the road where the left lane was full of cars that were stopped waiting to pass when there was lack of riders. So I had to pass on the right of her (while almost riding into the dirt embankment) while another passed on the left. (Wow - she was either REALLY big, or was standing cross-ways in the road if she were taking up the WHOLE road. I think she should be shot! Luckilly, you are an uber biker with exceptional bike handing skills, so it all worked out. And #6, which is related....

6) If you can't climb....just walk your bike up. I know Chalk Hill is a grinder, especially that far into the race, but that doesn't give you the right to do zig zags all over the right lane cause you don't have the bike strength or totally chose the wrong gear choices for the race. It's annoying and dangerous....just walk and stay out of our way. It's less embarrassing than looking like a fool all over the road. I don't understand. Are you saying that while climbing Chalk Hill, you had your head down so much that you didn't see the person in front of you zig zagging? Or that the zig zagging is so completely erratic that you could not simply time your pass? What happened to those exceptional bike skills?

Now onto the run. Boy the roads get crowded at this point of the race.

8) Don't try to act like your saving yourself for the last 1/2 of the race. If I'm passing you just accept it. It gets old passing people who try to stay with you because they don't like getting passed. Then you see them at an out and back walking cause they obviously overcooked themselves. Exactly how is this any skin off your nose? Maybe they don't like to get passed. Maybe they were having a particularly terrible day, saw you passing and thought, "there is NO WAY I am letting THAT guy pass me. I'm faster than he is!" Or is it that they are also taking up the entire road? Were they weaving, somehow blocking your forward progress? Hey Galileo, the universe does not revolve around you. I bet that person did the same thing with every other person that passed them. It's nothing personal - I bet you've thought more about that person than they have thought about you.

9) If you're going to be taking every water, ice, gatorade cup at an aid station...just goto the table instead of taking every volunteers cup. Some of us actually know what we want at a station and will be on out own way. These poor volunteers spinning around and around trying to make sure they help everyone who needs it doesn't need you just taking stuff and dropping it cause you can't say "Water".

And #10...I Didn't plan for this to be a 'Top 10' List, but I'll leave it here.

10) After the race keep the food line going! Some of us are hungry! (Especially that really fat girl who took up the entire road on her bike!)


To all you AGr's who every race have deal with all this bs, you now have my sympathy.

When another persons actions has the potential to cause harm (as in a crash or what not) - they are the one needing correcting, not the other folks. Better to whine on the forum than the race course.

Actually, better not to whine at all.

I can't help but be reminded of the George Carlin routine where he notices that anyone driving slower than you is an "a**hole", and anyone driving faster than you is a "maniac". Well, guess what - we're competing on a course with 2,500 other people, and by definition, each and every one of them is either an a**hole, or a maniac (except for that person right next to you that you can't seem to get away from...that person is just weird). Do you really think you can put 2,500 people on a race course and not have them get in each other's way?

Oh, and remember that for every a**hole that you have to go around who is "in your way", you are the maniac that is screaming past them and putting everyone else in "danger".

You are an IDIOT .... I cannot help that out of 2500 participants 2400 do not know what they are doing..... you all have too much money and very little on brains.

If you want to have a 100% unimpeded path to the finish line, get your pro card.

If you want to have a 100% unimpeded path to the finish line, get your pro card.

"DO NOT LEAVE YOUR SHOES IN THE PEDALS!!!! I WILL REMOVE THEM WHILE YOU SWIM!!!!!"

Are you having fun yet?

There are too many words to describe you: Let's start with arrogant.

Thus the reason that I as an RD did not allow that. We had one guy head out of transition and jump on - no shoes. He had to go back and get them. Funniest thing, he thanked me later. The rules were clear - and I held them to the letter. I think that practice should be banned for all but Elite/Pro

Also, you should've been DQ'd for bumping the girl.

I can tell you aren't having any fun at the races and you must make everyone else miserable.

I HATE THIS THE WORST..... They run out of transition to immediately stop and figure out how to get their feet in the shoes, clogging up the "bike out" and then falling down because this is the first time they've tried this stunt. At one race this year they had 5 women in the "Bike Out" COMPLETELY STOPPED trying to get their feet in the shoes. I had to yell out, "You've got to kidding me, MOVE !!!!" and I bumped this one girl out of the way and she yell out "ASSHOLE". Poor baby, practice that first before the event.

I've been in the last wave more often than not. Each wave start has it's unique challenge and benefit, but I believe you're a newbie and still need to learn this point.

I've raced hard, but still have fun. Also, I have never purposely bumped anyone. I wouldn't be very proud of my race if I did.

Sorry they don't make one person triathlon races, which is what you require.

Unfortunately, I am not a newbie and have been doing triathlons for many many years, first one was back in 1981 when helmets were not required. However, it just pains me to see the sport go to the crapper.

A wave is not "uniquely challenging" it sucks and is useless for me to swim over all these non swimmers.

And by your name "Tribeer" I trust you enjoy drinking beer. And so much love for the beer and triathlons you use it in your name, nice.....Slap to forehead...

I wish I could find my old race report on Orlando 70.3 - that fat woman "Katherine" blocking the bike course - then trying to give me a speech about her riding for a greater good (TiT) and all that jargon - damn I was pissed.

1. if you see a beginner be polite to them.
2. I f you see someone going slow don't judge, even the best bonk
3. Smell the roses
4. enjoy your race you never know if it's your last
5. Don't be full of yourself
6. race hard and legal
7. thank everyone working
8. meet people
9. know the rules
10. If you are a good age grouper don't call people pussies on the forum. You are only average and given time you will mature

And by your name "Tribeer" I trust you enjoy drinking beer. And so much love for the beer and triathlons you use it in your name, nice.....Slap to forehead...

100% yes.

Today I was given great perspective on life and so allow me to wax poetic about life and people who get their nuts in a wad over a triathlon.
I cannot go into a great amount of detail because of some privacy issues, but I was at lunch with some friends from my old job. One gal got a call from work and had to leave immediately due to an emergency with a small child.

In following up with her, the child passed today. Two parents lost a lively, beautiful and happy child. No real details at this point other than the people in charge did everything they could until EMS arrived at the school and took over.

SO. Next time you see that woman dropping her chain on that hill just keep moving and be glad that you get to go home, clean up and spend time with your family. Lighten up. It could be a lot worse.

Allie - I like you, I love your posts. But, the fact that a six year old dies has no bearing on the fact that some folks just do not belong on the race course. Some mitigating circumstance has no bearing on it. Every time we cross a road we are two seconds from death - every time we ride our bikes we could hit a hole and end up in the ED with no pulse. That is a fact of life. Appreciation is great - but fear is another thing. No god damn way I am going to think "I should be happy I am not a dead six year old" next time a car clips me. While I am sad for that child - that has no real bearing on my life or any race.

And that is what is important.

Ahhh...Grasshopper - wanting your friends to suffer is most of it. God I love them - but God I want them to hurt to try to keep up. Beat them solidly, beat them well...and then act like you were just riding along (you always have to act like you were not also suffering)

LOL - Figures your married. I wont even ask.

Thanks for making my evening.

1. if you see a beginner be polite to them.
2. I f you see someone going slow don't judge, even the best bonk
3. Smell the roses
4. enjoy your race you never know if it's your last
5. Don't be full of yourself
6. race hard and legal
7. thank everyone working
8. meet people
9. know the rules
10. If you are a good age grouper don't call people pussies on the forum. You are only average and given time you will mature