Because...on race day, we are not just swimming, riding, or running. We are doing a TRIATHLON. Different abilities are going to be mixed on the course, no matter what you do with the waves, the seeding, etc. Deal with it, or go do a single sport.

I've been doing triathlon for 13 years. I'm a F45-49. I'm midpack for my AG, and sometimes a little better than that. I pass people on the swim and bike, and get passed on the swim and bike. On the run, mostly I get passed, but sometimes I can pick off a few. But I love this sport, and have great passion for it, as a hobby. I don't have the genetics to be really fast, nor am I going to train 20 hours a week to get much faster. That does not mean that I should not participate, challenge myself, and go have a good time. I know the rules, and I abide by them. I don't bitch out the people I do have to pass on the bike, and I don't swim over people. I'm really sick of all the threads that imply that anyone who is slower than anyone else does not belong on the course. If you feel that strongly about that, go find a race in which there is a strict qualifying standard and only do those. Yes, people need to follow the rules, and education needs to happen, but sometimes we can actually help with that ourselves...maybe not be so full of yourself that you can't talk to a newbie on the course. When I encounter people riding too far left, I usually will say, 'you need to ride to the right, please' rather than 'get out of my way.' It makes a difference....to me in that I don't get super worked up, and hopefully to them, in that they may learn something.

There will always be newbies, and there will always be some slower people. But we are PEOPLE. And we are trying to have some FUN. We are allowed that, or the RDs need to not let us sign up. (and to Chip....if you are still an RD, I would love to know what race(s), because I will never do one of yours)

For some of us that is taking the shrinkage into effect!

Clearly you missed what I was saying but I give up trying to explain things when folks like yourself think every single post is about slamming slower people or newbies..


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General comment to the post: Like kdw and dev I'm sliding towards the back of the swim waves in most races now but I've found it to be manageable in most races and, frankly, in most cases, a more enjoyable experience. I'd rather be able to make a few comments or share a few words of encouragement to those I'm sharing the course with than spend the day time trialing by myself. Granted, it does mean I need to be more 'heads up' on the course to stay safe and be responsible but I'll take that drawback. I'm glad the sport draws people of all abilities that have different skill levels and goals on race day The alternative is less participation, fewer races and probably mostly a-holes to race against!

Well I was referring to the fact that he would not have made he top ten in this AG. I did not follow his previous posts and are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. He may be a decent guy but his post did not come across that way.
I have encountered many of the issues he pointed out and may have even complained about them in the heat of the battle but at the end of the day its just a "race". Just try to make the best of it. (I'll probably be eating my words next time I have to start in the back)

I guess I did miss something, because I don't know how you are going to have a triathlon with different swim lanes for differing swim speeds, biking categorizations, or running on a track where the slower people run to the outside?
Yes, the participants need to follow the rules, but that means education. Fussing about the frustration doesn't help that. Teaching and informing the other athletes does. And learning to deal with your frustration on your own without taking it out on other people. I used to yell at slower folks on the bike, too...and you know what? It just made me more frustrated and stressed, and I looked like an ass. Now I just let them know of the rules in a more polite manner. You are likely to never have a race where every single athlete complies. So you learn to deal with it or stop racing.

And, there have been a LOT of posts lately about slamming slow people, older people, and newbies.

If you read what Ultratriguy is trying to say, he's simply saying that we should all behave with common courtesy, following generally accepted rules whether we are slow or fast. It is really not that different than when driving your car on the road...in general, we all know what to do and when to do it to ensure a safe flow of traffic. This is by no means slamming anyone. Fast guys in older/later waves, need to have courtesy when passing athletes from earlier waves, likewise athletes from earlier waves being passed should compete with courtesy too and not behave like they own the entire road and be bent out of shape by folks in later waves doing the passing. Everyone paid their money and is entitled to race, let's all race with courtesy towards fellow athletes. Fast athletes should not buzz by slightly slower athletes without warning while at the same time, slower athletes should not be riding 4 abreast as if they own the road. I believe this is all that Ultratriguy is trying to get across. He means no disrespect to athletes of any ability.

I've done a shitload of races, since 1993. This information applies to all participants and not just older AG racers.

He has a point about the breastrokers and the people riding too far to the left. However, most of this could be avoided by careful choice of races. Now that there are more races and many more participants, you should be able to anticipate the races that get more newbies. Not fool proof, but if the race is advertised on some of the charities' web sites, they probably will have a good proportion of newbies. Glad to have the charities and their efforts to bring people into the sport, plus thank god if I or my relatives ever get the disease. But you can often figure out which races to do. And you can nicely call out and advise, 'good morning, I am going to pass you on your left since you are riding far left.' I realize you are very swift and do not have time to mess with these folks, but courtesy and the few seconds it takes will not ruin your race time.

I get that....but this thread, and others, go about it in a way of "people are in my way" and "people don't know the rules"....so instead of venting frustration all the time, because there will never be a race (except maybe a pro/elite setting) where every single athlete is going to know/abide by all of the rules, we can educate, and hope, and use the officials.
Heck, I just raced with my BF up in Massachusetts on Saturday, and watched a girl block him on the bike shortly after he passed me (he was in a later swim wave, but we swim about the same). He held back a couple of seconds instead of crossing the center line, warned her to move left, and she finally did so he could get by legally. And then she jumped on his wheel for about 45 seconds. Was he upset? No. Mildly annoyed? yes. It happens. It's going to happen.

It just seems people are tilting at windmills here. There won't be 100% rules compliance. We won't save every swimmer in trouble (even in a hospital setting, many people with cardiac arrest do not survive). There will always be issues. We can learn, educate, and deal with it. Do our best, but it is never going to be perfect.

Was that when you switched to backstroke?

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You're putting words in other peoples mouth now. Also - so when I called out 'on your left' and he didn't move (although he looked back), and when I yelled 'im on your left', and then when i said 'please move to the right so i can pass you', and finally when i said 'stay where you are im passing you on your right'...and then the kind gentleman exclaimed 'you call out on your left and then pass me on my right, whats your problem asshole' while i passed him...

...am i not being courteous? is there something more i should be doing? or perhaps is it not absurd to think people can and should follow a direction as simple as ride on the right?

You are right Dev,it is about everyone realising that there are different races going on in the same event.The faster people need to decide if they are going to race in these big events where they will be stuck in waves or,like myself,choose only events where it will be a mass start or less crowded waves.It does suck for them,of that I have no doubt but it is what it is...The slower people need to have a better idea of the fact that the faster people need a little help as well,like getting out of the way at aid stations when the 'racers' are coming through or keeping their bikes on the right and be more attentive to what is going on around them...Sadly it is now a case of "if you don't like it,then bugger off" and I'm not the one saying it.

The problem here on ST is that everyone has become so combative that every time someone like myself or Chip says something blunt and to the point people take it personally and get wound up..Then they start making stuff up.They start saying stuff like we abuse newbies or slow people at races,they say we think we are too good to volunteer at races,they say the stupidest bloody things to try and give us shit for some percieved personal insult.To be honest,I'm kind of over it....

Maybe I should go hang out with jackmott ;-)

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Let's just ban all the slow swimmers, crappy bikers, pathetic runners...newbies/Kona winner wanna bees from racing. Oh wait, think back long ago when you sucked, or had a "bad race" and how crappy you felt. How awesome would it have been if someone swam over you, passed you and yelled at you, or kicked your heels? I've been doing tri's for over 10 years, there's no better feeling than seeing people out there for the first time trying to complete a race. If you're so concerned about getting caught up with the slow and pathetic my advice is for you to (and I'll list them as you did)

1. NEVER RACE AGAIN CAUSE OUR SPORT DOES NOT NEED ATTITUDES LIKE YOURS.
2. Become a pro and race at the front of the pack.
3.NEVER RACE AGAIN CAUSE OUR SPORT DOES NOT NEED ATTITUDES LIKE YOURS.
4. Enter races that have mass starts so you and your awesome speed cant get to the fop.
5.NEVER RACE AGAIN CAUSE OUR SPORT DOES NOT NEED ATTITUDES LIKE YOURS.

If you're such an awesome athlete why are you DRAFTING anyone?
Your 33:05 swim is nowhere near the fop, so face it you're a slower swimmer.
2:47:04 for the bike Eh, 20 mph average, again you're mop.
1:35:14 decent pace for a half but again, ZOOT, NIKE, ASICS, K-SWISS wont be calling anytime soon.

YOU'RE an Age grouper no more special than anyone else. Leave the attitude and the LISTS at home.

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"You can't win the race on the swim, but you can LOSE it."

Sounds harsh, but it's mostly true. Strangely, much of this falls into the common-sense bucket, but you see much and all of this over, and over and over and . . . . .

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

While I generally agree with your sentiment it's overcrowding that has turned me away. Forget WTC's races, they are just ridiculous but I'd include many local races too. Namely West Point and Franklin Lakes. Races I enjoyed in past but would never consider again having too many near misses at both.

If I return it would be to grass roots tri's like Harryman. I love that people say it's too hard, the water is too cold etc. Makes for a more enjoyable experience. Thankfully too, here we've got AmZof and SOS and really everything else (including WTC) pales in comparison.

Agreed that things won't be perfect, but it goes both ways on the lack of courtesy and lack of compliance front for both fast and not so fast folks. What ultratriguy is saying is that whenever the perspective of the faster guy is tabled, the perspective is beaten down as elitest and selfish. Both sides have some role in making events both safer and more enjoyable for both sides....as the saying goes, it takes 2 hands to clap. A fast guy probably won't be a prick on the road if the slower folks are not riding 4 abreast. Likewise the slower folks probably won't be irate and hurl back insults to the fast guy if he/she is kind enough to graciously ask for some passing space and then do the pass safely.

In general, I've found that the guys who are really fast have been welcoming of all participants. I've raced now for every year for 27 years, and by and large the really fast guys have gone out of their way to ask me and others who "grew up through the ranks" about our progress, racing, and experience. They have wanted us to be in the sport. Over time, largely because of people like that, I became a slightly faster age grouper and was able to do the same. Now I'm the slowing older guy getting passed a lot (mainly on the run). But we all have the opportunity to make the sport more welcoming no matter where we fit into the spectrum.

As the sport has grown over 27 years, I have frankly seen more selfishness from both new participants and established/experienced folks than I had in the past. That's understandable, because going back into the 1980's and early 90's, the sport was a bit more fringe, and in essence it attracted a slightly different crowd of "newbies" who were probably already more athletic. If I look at my IMC 1991 results, most of the field were 25-34 year old.

Now most of the field is 35-49 year olds. For some reason, you'd think that this crowd should be less selfish than 25-34, but surprisingly I have not seen that in real life on courses.

The sport has aged in terms of composition and we're getting more folks who are entering sport as a means to change their lives (in a positive way). When you go from fringe and fairly hard core to more of a mass participation activity, there will be different groups with a different mindset about what the sport means to them. As society has become less civil somewhat due to the internet, it seems we have taken this same behaviour to the streets in our cars and as triathlon has grown, that behaviour has spilled over to our sport. That's just the way things are.

So its not entirely surprising what we see in the mass participation events, however, that does not mean that we can't endeavour to influence the behaviour of our peers on the race course be they fast or slow. Slower athletes, stick to the right and pre emptively offer up a passing lane to faster athletes. Faster athletes, courteously announce your presence and if it is in the water, don't swim over someone as that someone is a person's mother, father, daughter or son. You would not like somone to do the same to a person in your own family.

Dev

not surprising, sounds like he might have had some drag issues going on.

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Let's just ban all the slow swimmers, crappy bikers, pathetic runners...newbies/Kona winner wanna bees from racing. Oh wait, think back long ago when you sucked, or had a "bad race" and how crappy you felt. How awesome would it have been if someone swam over you, passed you and yelled at you, or kicked your heels? I've been doing tri's for over 10 years, there's no better feeling than seeing people out there for the first time trying to complete a race. If you're so concerned about getting caught up with the slow and pathetic my advice is for you to (and I'll list them as you did)

Yes and no!

If you read over the OP's post, much of what he's talking about has little to do with fitness or ability, and more with just plain old common sense - simple stuff like, swim/ride right and pass left . . and so on. Why is it that few seem to get this?

On the ability and fitness front, of course you can't say this, but I'll go ahead and be the ass saying it anyway, we have more than a few people doing these longer races, that shouldn't be doing these longer races. Believe me, we admire the pluck and the determination. We are grateful that we live in a free society where, anyone can choose to do anything. But at some point reality comes home to roost - all this anything-is-possible messaging has started to get a bit out of hand.

Going against the OP - I am often amazed at the attitudes of many of these athletes - they somehow think that they are doing their own private ITT 70.3 race! But the reality is that they have to share the course with 2,000+ other athletes and, it's not an ITT, you are racing out there head-to-head on the course.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

That was well said.

jaretj

I never said it didn't go both ways. I am advocating education for triathletes, so hopefully, most of us, fast or slow, will abide by the same rules and make it a smoother experience for all. But I am also saying that slow doesn't equal newbie or rule-breaker, and you can't argue that there are not quite a few posts against the new/slow athlete on this particular forum. Also...you ski, Dev...and know that you yield to the skier in front of you, as they don't have eyes in the back of their heads. Though not exactly the same in triathlon, as bikers need to be to the right to allow faster riders to get by (and there is no position rule that I am aware of for the run, so slower people can take the tangents if they choose), a passing rider or runner cannot reasonably expect the person in front of them to have eyes in the back of their head, so a little heads up from the passing cyclist is sometimes in order. I say 'sometimes' because I don't even want to get into that argument where some on this forum claim that every time they say 'on your left' the rider being passed moves left.

Bottom line: Did You have fun?

I think part of the problem is that many participants on the forum take a few posts or groups of posts and synthesizing some of this to reflect some type of an ST "consensus/party line". The is not the case. You can't let the prevelance of posts in any given direction slant your understanding of what is happening out there in real life. We need to derive conclusions on what is happening in real life at events based on what is going on at events, not by the frequency of posts on a topic.

Yes, not all newbies are rule breakers, but many are, perhaps because no one explained "correct behaviour to them". Many have not grown up as athletes, and don't really have a clue about what to do. I coach a bunch of kids at XC skiing and they are now competing in triathlon. Just because of their involvement in both XC skiing and cross country runnning/track, it did not take these 14-16 year olds that long to figure out how to behave on the field of play in triathlon. Likewise when triathlon was populated by 25-34 year old life long athletes in the late 80's early 90's, we got the same behaviour as I see from my teenagers just entering the sport.

As many new athletes did not neccessarily grow up through sport learning the "rules of the road" that ultratriguy put up earlier in this thread, it is not entirely surprising what behaviour we see on the road. Education is certainly important. Taking an example close to home, if my 45 year old sister were to enter a tri today, she's have no clue what to do on the road even though she's been around me for her entire life and witness countless events, but never competed in youth or adult life as an athlete...whereas my 15 year old son pretty well knows exactly how to behave as he's been doing sport his entire life.

As for the other side, where fast guys are being pricks, I can shed some light on some of the root cause for that. In youth competitive sport, it is pretty well a dog eat dog world. The top guys rise to the top. There is minimal courtesy in this competitive environment...."On your left" in a loud firm voice does not mean anything discourteous. The fast kids are taught to announce their presence in a firm way and those being passed are taught to get out of the way. In youth competitive sport, this is not "rudeness", it's just part of sport.

When FOP youth come over to triathlon, they carry the same mindset from competitiive environments into racing as adults....they may come in at 22 year olds or they may come back at 35 year olds after a 15 year break from sport. They unfortunately forget that it is not the high school state running championship where everyone is there for a "competition" with each other. They need to be aware that there is a different group they share the field of play with.