I have a question for you. You guys had a fairly small group that broke away in the swim, but a typical lead group for a small ironman field. I remember doing a couple swims with you when i was there last year, seems to me you were around 5;25 or so shape for a 500 then??

My question is have you gotten faster in the pool and by how much if so. IF you were to do a set of 20X100@ 1;15, what pace could you hold? Any feel for what you all out 500 might be at the moment?? And do you know any of the others that were in your groups swim times? Just trying to get a figure on how wide the abilities on the lead group are these days.

Nice race by the way, solid all the way through. SHould be a nice stepping stone race to better and faster things to com..

Brandon..exceptional race!! I was out at aid station 3 and was simply in awe of all you guys flying through the aid station each time around looking like yall are not even hurting!! So....on a scale from 1-10..1 being low, 10 high...how much were you really hurting in the run? Did the heat play any roll in the outcome of your race? What was your favorite part of course or worst? How would you rate the race overall compared to others? Also...will you return next year to give it another go!

Odd ball question...what do you normally chow down for post race "celebratory" meal. Anything that looks good or do you specifically hunt something down to eat?

Congrats again on your outstanding performance!!

Brandon, great race. Do feel like you've left no aero stone unturned? What will you change in your training in the future?

thanks,
Eric

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

here's my question. i've noticed that athlete couples rarely survive with both training/racing at a high level. one debases his/her training to support the other. which often eventually causes some heartburn, whether the debasing partner admits it or not.

have you noticed this? and if so, have you noticed the anomaly you two represent? and how do you navigate that? i think a lot of other couples in your position could benefit from your wisdom, whether pro or AG.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I have become more 'fit' than when you were here. If I were swimming 20x100x1:15 yards, I could hold 1:05s or better kind of as an effort above a 'cruise' which would probably be 1:08s or so on that set. I've done a few main sets that were on the 1:10 base for yards with Longhorn Masters like 3x150 1:45, 3x100 1:10, 3x50 0:35 for the first set and then 3x150 1:40, 3x100 1:05, 3x50 0:35 that were good indicator sets that I was pretty fit.

Generally though I have only been swimming Masters 1-2x a week. I could probably make 20x100x1:15 short course meters rolling in on the 1;12 or so, but I do not think that I could comfortably make that set Long Course.

I think that I tend to underestimate my 500 TT off the blocks time as i would say I'm in 5:05-5:10 shape. That's because it takes a LOT to get under 5 minutes when tri training. If I focused on swimming more and rested, etc, then I think that I could sneak under 5 minutes.

JoeU has admitted that he is a better open water than pool swimmer and that Hunter, etc. routinely smack him in the pool. Mathias is definitely a better open water swimmer. I don't know about Rasmus and Balaz other than they are typical front pack, but not off the front swimmers.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

You went by me going up the bridge on your third loop of the run (my first) and I swear you weren't even touching the ground. Very impressive.

If I have to ask a question, how'd you like racing an IM in your home state? Did you have a good contingent of family and friends out there on Saturday?

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"Unless you have a ... GF who might put out that night and that night only ... skip it and race." - AndyPants 3-15-2007

For the run on a scale of 1-10 it's about a 7 for the first couple of loops, and then depending on how you've managed things it moves up to 8 or escalates quickly to higher than that. But, it's not the arms getting numb kind of hurt that a 1600m for time would be. So, for me it was crusing at 7, then pretty quickly to 8 or 9 on lap 3 and then a complete suffer fest the last 3-4 miles.

Heat didn't play much of a role other than me not taking in enough fluids early in the run.

Favorite part of the course was the bike and the run through the canal area. Worst was the run though the new home construction and the little grass out and back and hill that were added just make it accurate.

Compared to others, I thought it was a great race and well done. Clearly the swim leaves a bit to be desired in terms to width, a TT or different wave start might suit the large AG field a little better.

Post race that day was pizza, then the next evening it was a burger, wings, and fries. Not it's back to normal.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

I am sure I can make a few improvements. I try to approach it from a do everything I can and keep things pretty clean, but not at the cost of losing some simplicity when it comes to IM racing. So, I can and likely will lose a bottle and bento box for the next one. My position has always seemed to be a bit 'slow' with watts/speed, but I think that I'm getting closer. That and trading in my P3 for a P5 hopefully!

Added:
- Wheels were 2011 Jet6 front and JetDisc rear
- Tires were Conti 4000S 23s with Latex tubes, and a very slowly leaking rear tire
- Rudy helmet
- P3 frameset with horizontal front bottle, downtube bottle, and single behind the seat bottle
- I picked up special needs
- I am going to update my fit coordinates soon

Generally I think that a lot of athletes over analyze some small things without taking care of the big things. Fast tires and wheels help, but a loose jersey kills you as does a lot of sitting up.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

First off, congratulations. I watched a lot of the race and was happy to see you do so well. That's a fast time!

As for questions - I second Dan's query. Also, on a somewhat-similar note, I'm curious what your take is on fitting high-level sport in to an otherwise balanced life. The current front page interview with Craig Evans was a great one, and I think it's a good eye opener for a lot of folks. You and I spoke on the phone near the end of my tenure with SRAM, and I recall being impressed with how level-headed you were, and willing to work for it. In a sense, I'm always somewhat baffled by the guys who almost seem "too smart" to pursue this shaky career we call professional triathlon. I guess I'm saying - kudos to you, and please shed some light on it if you don't mind.

Lastly, what are your best three pieces of training advice to give to the aspiring age grouper. My perception is that a lot of folks assume it takes a *ton* of training hours to go fast.... but clearly there are pro's who work part or full time and go very, very fast (and don't necessarily put a lot of hours in... just high quality hours when their body is ready for it). What say you?


Greg

Do you feel like this was your best ironman performance yet? What is next?

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

dude, even if you were the 6th overal AGer, you'd still have something of value to share. that's a fine performance.

questions and thoughts below:
Jordan thought he could win. he built his race around that. what did you expect, how does that drive your decision points (when to go, when to hold back, do you chase athlete X, pass him, pace off him, etc)?

did you have people you thought you could beat? ("i'm going to stick to X and then pass him." etc)

what's next? will you go to Kona if the points are there?

No question--just a hearty well done to you and Amy from an athlete you once coached. The misses whom you also once coached says well done, too. See you at CapTex or BSLT?

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Scrubbie

Dan, very good question. Whether it is intentional or not and whether one/both of the halves in a couple admit it, it happens. We have tended to have a pretty balanced approach. I started out coaching Amy, and was self coached myself. That proved to work well for a few years, but at the same time strained things a bit. If I look at the Bennetts as an example as well it seems that at times they have both been hitting on all cylinders and then at other times they seem to alternate.

The last 2 years for us became a definite challenge in these terms, and that is the main reason at the end of 2011, we made some changes. Some of it was the travel and racing schedule, but some of it honestly was the success that she was seeing and the mediocre results I was seeing. Amy was having a great run of things, and I was suffering. At the beginning of 2011 when Amy was still having good results, but not really enjoying things it was even tougher on both of us. At the end of 2011, it was even worse, almost to the point of Amy not really wanting to continue with triathlon. For me, I've been in the sport since 89 and honestly did not set out with the goal of being a professional, so it is a bit 'easier' for me to accept the results because I was still enjoying it, but wasn't satisfied with the results.

Fast forward to now, and things are back on track and headed the right direction. To navigate it, it has definitely taken a few things, and I'll do bullet points...
- more than 1 or 2 frank discussions and a good bit of open honestly. That sounds touchy feely, but it is pretty necessary.
- If it is a couple that is racing, it helps to have a pretty good outline of the separate and joint goals that both of them have. We have an idea of how much longer we want to race, but at the same time, we don't want to put a hard timeline on it.
- We enjoy training and racing together. IM races when training/racing together can be a bit of a challenge since the training load and tiredness seem to hit at the same time. So, picking different 'A' races may be a good idea. Picking different races to train for, but travel to the races together when that makes sense. it is definitely more enjoyable when both are at races.
- One thing that helped us, and helped me more, was hiring a coach that matched up with my personality. If I could take my mind out of the training aspect of things, then it better allowed me to either coach Amy or tend to the other things that we had to do without sacrificing my workouts. We both know what needs to get done workout and life wise, so having the accountability to each other and a coach has really helped.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Yes, best overall performance so far. What is next?

I don't know in racing terms. I am putting up three scenarios. 1 go to Kona since it will be a cool year to go and since I would like to race it as a pro. 2 focus on finding an IM to have a better race and race for the win. 3 pick a few races that might let me make a bit more $$ (Rev series) and do a late season WTC race with 2013 Kona as a goal.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Thanks Brandon for you swim fitness inside look, now how did the actual race actually go? Did you find yourself at the front at any time, and if so when and how much? At what point did the starting supersprint settle down into the usual cruise control, or was it balls to the wall to the finish?

I wanted to do this race last year, but I was injured most of April and all of May.

No family outside of Amy, oddly enough. I actually told my parents not to come since my mom's travel schedule has been so crazy! And, in reality, an IM is something that is miserable to spectate though The Woodlands is a pretty good place for it as far as the swim and run go!

Friends. Yes, there were a LOT of people from Austin there. And, having grown up and started racing in the Houston area, there were a LOT of people who have known me for 20 or so years that were there. I hadn't seen some of them in almost that many years, TJ Fry for example (hasn't changed a bit!!), but it was great to hear my name and the cheers. So thanks.

I'll get to the other Qs in a bit.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Good race and thanks for sharing the insight on the dynamic relative to Slowman's question too! This is also useful for me to hear your views as in my group, I have a few husband and wife age grouper combos where they manage tri training, careers and kids. Generally they alternate years or times of year where one focuses more on triathlon than the other.


A few questions

• You mentioned starting in 89.....so how many more years do you WANT to race at this level?
• Houston humidity....is this your preferred type of racing environment, or do you prefer drier conditions?
• What is your childhood athletic background?

It's funny you mentioned TJ. Did you see him in the hula skirt on the run. Same nuts as always.

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"Unless you have a ... GF who might put out that night and that night only ... skip it and race." - AndyPants 3-15-2007

What kind of bike and run build did you do for the month leading up to IMTX? Avg. weekly hours and miles?

Holy crap...TJ Fry! Is he still coaching at the Woodlands ST? Haven't heard that name in forever. Kinda just clicked and confirmed that I (thought) I know you!

Doubt you remember, but we met back in HS swimming, when your were still at Angleton HS, and I was swimming with Clements HS (plus FCST) and going to triathlons with Hugh M. I had the honor of getting my ass handed to me by you in the 500 Free, IIRC more than once at meets. Nice to see you've hit the triathlon big times, and congratulations to a great IM Texas race!

great race Brandon
Unfortunately I never saw you on tv. But i hope its ok to ask a question about Amy.
When she stated the run she had a nutrition bottle in one of her hands and it seems to have stiffened up her arm drive and at later stages without bottle she seemed actually more relaxed in her shoulders.
Do you feel its the best for her to carry her nutrition on the run in one hand ?

The shaky career of professional triathlon. I have not read the interview with Craig yet; however, I did start out full time in engineering as a top-level age grouper. I won just about every race in Texas and finished 3rd at AG Nats in 2003, turned pro after. Mainly to race with the fast guys, but not to make a career out of it as it just didn't seem too 'smart'. Somewhere along the way I abandoned being smart and went for the 'you only go around once approach'. Unless you are a trust-funder (we are not) or have parents who help you out in extraordinary ways (we do not, supportive yes) or just don't mind bouncing CC balance from card to card (we do not), it is not a sustainable make a living sport for MOST pros. We have cobbled it together by having 1 of the pair make a good amount of prize money, the other making enough coaching athletes, and from a key sponsorship in 2010/11 and another one in 2012. Right now, the thought that pros ride what they are 'paid' to ride and get all of their travel covered by 'sponsors' is a bit of a misnomer. It is hard, very hard, and the money outside of race winnings is small for 90% of the pros, very very small. And, I think that there are a lot of pros who 'think' that I will win a race and then be set. It is not the case at all. If you podium in a lot of races, you can make in on prize money alone and some sponsorship money may come from that. But, a lot of pros are not willing to do this right here...sit down for seemingly hours and answer questions. Or try to do effective social networking outside of making the life of a pro look like eat, sleep, surf the net and go to a coffee shop. Or really work with their sponsors. Coming from the corporate world helps with that mindset a bit. But, there are some sponsors who do not necessarily see these actions (ours will get a note about races, results, etc) so some of it is difficult to quantify.

The thought of making a living off of prize money, which is what a lot of people think that pros do, is to some degree like hoping you get a bonus for a project you wok on at work for weeks but aren't getting paid along the way. There are definitely companies and marketing folks out there who get it, but it is a challenge to get more than product/bonuses in many cases. Lastly, this is why a lot of pros do have secondary jobs coaching, etc.

Three tips for the AGer who wants to go fast or get faster...
- Find a schedule that you can hit week in and week out, lather rinse repeat ad naseum. If it's 8 hours it's 8, if it's 12 its' 12, etc. A LOT of work can be done in 12 hours a week.
- If you have the above base of fitness, it should 'only' take 6 weeks to get ready for just about any race, then the family can have mom/dad/etc back.
- Do NOT neglect or assume that your life stresses have no bearing in your training or racing stresses, they do and they need to be accounted for.
- Work on your weakness, but DO NOT think that you are going to eliminate it, especially at the expense of losing your strength.

Edit...that was four, I really can count.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

My focus here was to execute a good race. I penciled in 8:25 with a 0:50 swim, 4:35 bike, 2:55 run, and transitions. I built this race around that and the training that Paulo had me do. For the most part I knew about who I would swim with in this race and what they would do once we hit the bikes...all but 1 maybe 2 would ride too hard. I figured Jordan would pass me on the bike, but didn't know when and unless it wasn't definitive, I would stick with my plan. Pretty much I raced for my plan and my time in the race. I knew it would finally take a good race to do that. Unless the course is ridiculously fast or field very deep, 8:25 is usually a top-10 for sure, lots of time top-5, and sometimes top-3. I didn't think that it would win, so I didn't worry about that. Having had a good race, it definitely gives me confidence to find another one and 'maybe' go for the win.

Next, I don't know. I 'should' have enough Kona points, but I am working on a few scenarios. That's not a cop-out, I just don't know for sure.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

CapTex? Cheering. BSLT? Doubtful. We are headed to Flagstaff for the summer, and will likely not race in June to get used to the alititude.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

I knew you were going to ask the first one, and I knew it would be you who would ask. I think that those of us who are in our late 30s right now are the fist generation who are trying to consistently race this long. I loosely plan on through 2013. That's 1/4 century. Maybe 2014 if I have some 'bucket list' races, we'll see.

I like racing in Texas. I have done slightly better in drier conditions, but that might be the case for most folks. I just really need to focus on the salt and hydration aspect of it. For as much as you read about limiting the water intake, I think that it does become more important on very warm and humid races.

I was the weird kid in small town Texas who didn't play football. Ready JimmyR's blog for some insight on football in Texas. 18,000 people and I managed to start swimming as an 8 or 9 year old. I was 'ok' in high school, but not 'fast'. 4:50 mile on the track in my 1 track meet. 4:56 in the 500. Again, per a comment earlier, I didn't set out to be a professional athlete. I was a nerd, 2nd in the class kind of nerd.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

IM swims, especially with only 40 pros are pretty mellow. We started out pretty quick and rolled pretty good for only about 2-300 it seemed like, and about 800 or so into it, Rasmus had opened a small gap. It really didn't seem like anyone was keen to lead, so I punched it a bit and went for the lead. I was in the lead from that point on during the swim. When you've got a good rhythm in open water as you know, fast doesn't feel that hard, and that's how it was. Fast, but not hard.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Three tips for the AGer who wants to go fast or get faster...
- Find a schedule that you can hit week in and week out, lather rinse repeat ad naseum. If it's 8 hours it's 8, if it's 12 its' 12, etc. A LOT of work can be done in 12 hours a week.
- If you have the above base of fitness, it should 'only' take 6 weeks to get ready for just about any race, then the family can have mom/dad/etc back.
- Do NOT neglect or assume that your life stresses have no bearing in your training or racing stresses, they do and they need to be accounted for.
- Work on your weakness, but DO NOT think that you are going to eliminate it, especially at the expense of losing your strength.

Great tips Brandon - it all rings true to me, especially the one about "life stresses". They do have a bearing on your training and I constantly feel like I'm battling with this as the focus tends to be one dimensional when it comes to stress. In addition, it's difficult to cut a workout short sometimes or even maybe sleep in later AND cut a workout short due to having obligations the night before.

Thanks for the responses and great race. Those are some serious fast times.

As with Jordan's reply to these questions, it's a bit between Paulo and me. Paulo started coaching me at the very beginning of the year. It has been good, very focused training. And that is something that cannot be underestimated. So, when I put general averages down, they don't show the entire picture, and they may not be that impressive. But, it's "only" now about 5 months working with a new coach, so I don't know how the next 5 months will change.

With the exception of race and post-race weeks, I probably biked 13-15 hours and ran 7-8 hours. Miles varied depending on the routes we chose, so looking at miles might not be metric.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

If Dave had a last name I'd probably surprise you.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

no questions, but just wanted to say that I enjoyed the race report; congrats on your race

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I don't suffer from insanity; I enjoy every minute of it--

dude, this is very cool. thanks a lot.

What does this mean?

" I hope that, and maybe will have more commentary to this point, that the �Lance factor� as people are calling it doesn't negatively affect the race. By that, I simply mean that steps will need to be taken to ensure that external dynamics are kept to a minimum and everyone is able to race their race. At 70.3 TX, this was not quite the case, and the results were likely skewed a bit because of it."

As someone very much on the outside looking in, when it comes to big races and being fast, the dynamics are very interesting.

As someone who was herding elderly in-laws around The Woodlands, I have to disagree about the swim spectating. Walking 2 miles round-trip between transition & the swim start isn't a good option for 60+ year old parents unless they're as committed to fitness as we are(they aren't) & parking at the swim start was more readily available(it wasn't). If you're willing to miss seeing your SO off at the swim start & catch them at T1 - or you're in good enough shape to make the trek - then sure, it's a reasonable location. If it was just my SO & myself, it would've been fine. Having her parents spectate is what made it more difficult than, say, IMKY or IMCOZ.

(I realize the race director is working with the geographic limitations of the site, but they're the ones that picked the place)

The run was fine, we were able to setup shop at a shady place near one of the bridges & see racers 3x/lap. The parking garages & restaurants were convenient for the run course as well.

Thanks for your Q&A, I'm learning some good stuff.

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Iron Distance Race Selector

Thanks for sharing some fairly personal information.

One thing I can point out to you. There are 1000's of people around the world who earn a living as an engineer. The number who can making a living as a pro triathlete is very small, so worldwide you are in a very select group.

After you are done, you can join back with the engineering masses as your brain power will still be there, but your physical capabilities will not be there for long time. You have the opportunity to do something outside the ordinary, and I am glad for you and Mrs. Tex that you are able to do it.

I just recently had a debate with a family member who said that kids should go to university to study a profession where they can make a good living without being elite it. Subjects like business, law, engineering, medicine were tabled. (by the way, I have grad degrees in business and engineering)...but I digress.

I said, I grew up under parents of immigrants who wanted their kids to have a comfortable living and directed us down the safe path where a decent amount of intellect and a good work ethic could combine to deliver a comfortable life.

I replied back saying, "that's just a path of mediocrity". I understand why immigrant parents point their kids that way, because they don't want them to face the same struggles they did. But without high risk there is no high reward.

There is nothing wrong with our kids following their passions, even if they are low paying professions. If they are truly GOOD at their passion, they will make ends meet and have immensely rewarding and fulfilling lives, rather than just following the safe path of mediocrity in fairly "high paying" professions.

Good on both of you for taking that path. No doubt it is rewarding, albeit trying financially at times. Well done.

Seriously, how in the world can you identify the other dudes in the race? I have a hard time picking out the color of the swim cap or the location of the next buoy. Do you study tape of their swim technique? Do you practice enough with these guys to know their style? How?!

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Isn't it true the ONLY reason pro's showed up to Ironman Texas was because Rappstar told you all that American Zofingen was too hard...that it would steal a piece of your soul and leave you weeping like a baby in the fetal position?

(just kidding...see Rappstar's thread)


I'm assuming from this comment that you supplement with extra salt? If not, ignore my follow ups:

What indicators do you get that let you know you need more salt? Do you cramp without extra salt? If so, can you feel them coming on before cramping sets in? what muscles tend to cramp IF it comes to that? Do you find that you cramp in both racing and training without extra salt?

The reason I ask is probably pretty obvious.

Awesome race...very cool to have pro's have an open discussion like this.

Thanks,
Keith

1. Power Numbers?
2. Is Team Marsh planning on having little triathletes in the future?

I second this question. See pro's discussing who did what in the swim all the time and it confuses me. I'm a swimmer and every now and then when swimming open water with friends can identify them but once we get more than 4 or 5 in a pack there is no way. How do you guys do it!?

In a no wetsuit swim it is a lot easier to identify each other. I think this is also why people generally behave better in a no wetsuit swim, as the cloak of anonymity is lifted. Once on the bike, very easy to identify the dude in the red tri suit who was beating the crap out of you for the entire swim :-). Plus in ITU they have their names right on the tri suit.

In a smaller swim it is easier. It is easier because you have a pretty good idea of who is going to make that selection. It is also a lot easier if you look to see where around you where your fellow pros are at the start. It always amazes me that 'if' we have a 50m starting line, we all end up lining up within about 10 meters...kind of annoying actually. In mucky water it is more difficult, but you look to see what kind of goggles they are wearing as well as the speedsuit. Goggles are a dead giveaway. So, when I breathed to my left, I was 90% sure it was Mathias. When I looked up front, there was red sticking out of the speedsuit and that was what Rasmus was wearing. And, I knew that Joe started next to me on the right. If the water is clear, you can just tell by faces, etc. Some pros have a very distinct stroke, so 'if' you have trained with them, you'll know that.

And, we aren't dealing with 2000 of our closest friends.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

1. 246 average. 248 xPower. Golden Cheetah. I backpedaled about 40 miles in. I have a quarq. The numbers seemed too high for my effort and the tailwind, and I seemingly lost about 15 watts there. But, I was also looking a bit at my speed and laps as well as how I felt. So, I wasn't a total slave to the PM. I had an auto lap set and knew how fast I needed to be for each lap. In looking at the splits, I had a slight negative split ride. I don't want to over analyze too much, but that seems to show that clearly the numbers were off early on in the ride.

2. Likely.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Sounds like some excellent pacing. Can I ask what variables you look at during the ride and how long your laps are set for? Do you base nutrition intake off of your laps?

+1

Pursuant to this, do you think YOU are a better pool swimmer or OW swimmer?

If so, what do you think makes you better in OW?

If not, what you do you think makes you better in the pool? And what - if anything - do you focus on in training in an effort to become a better ow swimmer?

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I think that I know why you are asking! :)

A lot of it comes down to comfort I think, and she ran enough with a hand-held in training that she was ok doing it in the race. It was an 8oz or 10oz bottle in a Nathan (no sponsorship) hand held. She used it to carry her own nutrition as opposed to relying on the on-course nutrition until she was ready. So, it's really an individual decision. I also think that you (in general) might be willing to carry something less than ideal early in the run if it means you are going to get the calories/nutrition in early since that is when it really matters. And, then when you are in the later stages of the run where it might feel better to run more natural.

Personally I will carry a flask and switch from hand to hand. Is there a better way, maybe. I've worn a belt, but sometimes I don't want anything on my stomach. Amy the same way.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

So, this one took some writing, re-writing, etc. I added this to my race report as a 'reason' for going to Kona this year, the fact that Lance is racing in all honesty. But that isn't my 'only' reason for wanting to qualify and go this or next year, I kind of would like to race it as a professional even if it is an expensive 'experience', but I am not 100% sold on it which is enough to say I should probably pick a different race. I am likely not going to receive any more attention in the race than I would have if Lance wasn't in the race, unless it is warranted by my finishing results. Kona is a different race simply because the 50 best are there and you might get 10 of 50 at most other races. Clearly with Lance in the race there will be a lot of media hype, etc. And, it's well deserved 'hype' if you ask me. He is as has been pointed out in other threads, a celebrity and is a celebrity right now who is doing well at triathlons. And look, I don't want this thread to spiral downwards like most threads when the name Lance is mentioned, so I'll ask you to keep those out of it. And, the exposure that he brings to triathlon, even if it is only for a couple of years, has the potential to at least catapult it a little bit more into the mainstream.

To the dynamics of the race, I briefly touched on them in my race report from 70.3 Texas. With more exposure comes more media. In the 'old' days people surmised that some of the reason Mark/Dave/etc. when so 'fast' on the bike was because then they had media VAN convoys driving around them. Now we have motos and photographers, which is worlds better than Vans and autos. At 70.3 Texas the roads were NOT closed for the first 20 miles of the bike course, and the course going out was the right hand lane of two lanes going the same direction. We had the right most lane, cars has the left lane in the same direction. So, when I say that I hope that race dynamics play out so that everyone in the race can race THEIR race I'm speaking in terms of the media not having an effect. At 70.3 Texas, a lot of people on the internet commented that Lance sat up for some reason during the bike leg. He sat up because the guys behind him were getting a massive draft, not from being legal distance behind, but from the dozen cars that were lined up behind a moto in the passenger lane causing a huge break in the quartering head wind that we fought for 20 miles. So, essentially while the front cyclist of the pack may have been riding his race, if you were 3rd wheel or further, you were getting an artificial advantage. After mile 20 as soon as the course was closed the pack essentially broke up.

I can't tell you how the results would have changed if things were different. I came off the bike far enough down to pass some of the guys ahead of me. Would Jordan Jones not have pipped Lance at the line...I don't know. Would Sebastian instead of Tim won...I don't know. But, I do think that the first 20 miles of the race did change the finishing in some manner.

That is what I mean by race dynamics being affected by external factors...not the wind or terrain or weather. I do not care what other athletes chose to do in Kona. If I'm racing, I'm going to be making my decisions based on what I think that I can do. Last year the top-10 was likely not picked in its entirety by anyone. And the reason is the same reason that I ended up passing 2 guys at the end of the ride at IMTX. Guys decided to ride harder than they knew they could for the first 1-2 hours of the race and blew up. The race just needs to be a fair race for the men....and women. If there is a media convoy of 5 motos surrounding Lance as soon as he gets on the road then 1 of a few things are going to happen...he's going to ride artificially fast, he and those in close proximity are going to ride artificially fast, and/or someone who might come out in the 2nd pack might not ride through the field and have the race that they are capable of having because of the first two scenarios above...someone like Sebastian Kienle at 70.3 TX. If 10 guys want to ride with Lance, then let them make that choice and do it. Don't let it happen because of the external factors. If Lance blows through the field by mile 10 and is on his own, then just keep things clean enough so that he's not 15 minutes ahead instead of 10 or 12. And for the women, it might mean either a pretty good head start or at least a separate male/female start so that the faster female swimmers do not end up riding with the slower male pros.

That is what I mean by the "Lance factor", external race dynamics, and possibility of the race outcome being changed.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Nice thread btw.


height/weight on race day?

Saw some pics you look like a body builder vs some of the other guys, although pics can be deceiving.

Also about a year, year and a half ago I thought I heard some rumors that you were going to scale back racing or stop.

What changed your mind, since it seems you're focused, if the rumors were true.

My only other comment is smart move hiring Paulo.

EDIT: since you're in Flag, if you desire to head down to Tucson for some training I've got a spare room.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

It has been trial and error. I raced Olympic distance for the longest time. And, you can fake a lot of a 70.3 nutritionally and training-wise. IMTX was what I feel my best IM to date, though I had decent races before at IMAZ and IMFl, both of those were cooler and drier days. I've started 13 IMs, finished 12, and the DNF was due to pretty extreme GI/Flue issues before the race...I shouldn't have started. When I sweat a lot, I'm white with salt. I've cramped up, but I have also found that I just am able to focus more and seem to maintain my effort better when I take extra salt. I probably should have taken more on the run at IMTX along with more diligent hydration early in the run.

In training, it seldom happens, but I think that is the case for most people. It has happened though. In racing it has happened. To say it must be electrolytes is a cover all statement. I use primarily first endurance EFS when I race, and I took 1 salt stick tablet every 50 minutes. The cramps usually hit me in a couple of places...adductors and hands/fingers. The hands/fingers are kind of weird, like my fingers don't want to bend. And if I've been worked pretty solid and maybe not as diligent in training, it'll be the hands/fingers...or if it's a particularly hard/hot day sometimes my hamstrings will twinge when I'm sitting. And, if it's bad leg cramps, for whatever reason DURING a race, Coke seems to help.

So, it's individual trial and error.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

What RPE would you give the bike ride at that power level?

it looked kinda like this :)

Brandon - How did you attach the single cage behind you saddle? My wife has a P3 and I have been trying to figure out a way to do it.

Similar to Jordan. I mostly look at time, cadence, 3s power, and then lap or average power. I had my laps set for 4 miles...10ish minutes. So, it would chirp and I'd usually end up drinking or something.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

I think that I am about equal, and my open water I think has improved. I am obsessive at times about my stroke, watching my hands, looking for bubbles. I just really like swimming. But, what has made my open water swimming 'better' is focusing on working on my stroke so that I have a slightly quicker turnover or at least minimizing any pauses in my stroke...like in the front. The faster turnover allows me to swim better in a group and respond to 'moves' if needed. I'll count my strokes all the time, but that is to eliminate boredom.

The thing that I have noticed about those that are better, much better, in open water is that they are not the prettiest pool swimmers and end up having a really choppy fast stroke in the pool. RichieC for example. And, Brett, Joel, Paulo, and others have posted about fitness. It is about fitness, though that applies mainly to people who never really put in a big block of swimming. In a pool you get to rest every 14-40 strokes. In open water you don't. So, it really helps to find a stroke that you can maintain for 3800m/2.4 miles. More open water swimming can help with this, but 'most' triathletes just dork around too much in open water. It helps to have a buoy line or other set of markers so that you can be more focused in those workouts.

The thing about guys like Andy Potts is that he can probably keep his pool stroke in open water since he is out front all day. And, if I can get to the front then it's 'easier' to maintain that pool stroke...generally longer and slower turnover. But, to improve your pool swimming, the best way is really to get really good turns, and to focus on all the things like DPS, etc.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Great thread brandon..... very fun reading!

I think one of the most valuable lesson i had in swimming open water was from greg bennett. That guy isnt a rock star in the pool but one of the best open water guy there is. He could do all the tricks and no one could match is turnover. that s what he told me, kept turning your arms fast....specificly in the draft....high rpm and dont worrie about efficency.

That was enough for me to swim in those front group (not the breakaway) coming from no swimming background. i always notice that the selection happen around 400-800m.,.... seems like everyone slowdown at that point and those that dont and kept the rpm up and move to a pair of reliable feet or good position in the group make it..... those that simply stick where they are and stop looking for oportunity to move up get drop.

I have never seen the early acceleration as a place where selection happen tho....

Also, i think you should costumize that tail of your aerohelmet and get it longer to touch your back....might be free speed there ;)

kept the awesome work and fantastic race!

.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Who cut your hair?

Good job Tex, the older the violin, the sweeter the music.

-bobo

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"What's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded."

That's interesting. There seems to be a real convergence on the idea of higher stroke rate for OW. My coach said the same thing. And if you watch the video of Thomas Lurz and Ryan Cochrane at the Tiburon Mile, it's amazing to see how high Lurz's stroke rate is - 100spm or so. Sutton talked about that as well, how the Brownlees have incredible turnover and can maintain it for 1500m.

Like most folks who came to racing swimming late in life (I'd always known "how to swim"), I got the same advice as a lot of folks (I think) - longer is better, DPS, etc. But for OW, it seems the opposite is true. Focus on getting the highest stroke rate that is still efficient and sustainable. I've actually found my swimming in the pool - but moreso in races I think - has improved (though I have only really WF and IMTX to reference) as I've focused this year just on keeping my stroke rate high in the race. Not like spinning my wheels high, but certainly as high as is comfortable and not caring if I'm not really finishing or catching cleanly. As long as the stroke is "good enough," more cadence is better.

Good to see that you also seem to be coming to the same conclusion. And Jonnyo. And GB. Etc, etc.

I've been thinking about getting a tempo trainer for this, not for what most people seem to use it for - to slow down their strokes - but to speed it up.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I'm one of those SAS (slow as shit) swimmers, but I had an instructor stick one of these trainers in my cap to speed up my turnover. It was pretty cool to have immediate feedback and to feel the difference as you increased the tempo.

nothing to ask, just thank you for taking the time to answer all the qs.. very interesting to get this kind of thoughtful analysis..

I've read the articles over at the sports scientists, such as http://www.sportsscientists.com/...and-exercise_21.html, and some of the info by Noaks (not trying to start a war with the Noaks' haters, just using a reference point), who seem to advocate that drinking to time may not be the best method, especially when the conditions, efforts, pre-race levels, etc can vary. They suggest that drinking to thirst is sufficient. I. myself, have found that I fail to recognize when I'm thirsty and will also drink to time. I struggle with varying my intake in different conditions.

Do find that you need to adjust your hydration strategies during the different conditions? How do you go about doing this/ determining this mid-race?

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Bodybuilder? Thank you? I hear the camera adds at least 10 pounds. 5'9". 143-150 depending on if I'm having a fat day or a skinny day.

Yeah, I thought I might scale back a bit. There were a few factors at work, but the short answer is yes...and I'm not sure why I just figured it would be time. But at the same time, I never felt like I gave racing professionally a good enough go or had a good enough race (IM). So, desperation will make you do crazy things! :) I didn't want to stop racing, start the next phase and say 'what if'. As a bit of a follow up to Dev's question, when I finish racing I want to have fun with being active, make a living doing something I enjoy at that time and not want to go back.

I hear Tucson is hot in the summer, like ridiculously hot. But, I would like to climb Mt. Lemmon.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

I probably rode at an RPE of 7, increasing to 8.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Single cage on the rear? ATC George and maybe Jonnyo came up with it. I am sure others, but i give credit to them. It is a Minora behind the saddle carrier. It involves using just the bottle cage portion and some of the nuts and bolts and a dremel tool. It is mounted in the top hole of the 2 holes in the seatpost. If your saddle is too far back, you'll have a difficult time making it work, and even still it take a bit of work. All things considered it is pretty cleanly done.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

What percentage of your run training do you do on non-concrete surfaces? Trails, track, grass, treadmill, etc?

I may have missed it, but what are your race plans the rest of the year?

Thanks, it's pretty incredible to have the best of the sport in here answering normal people's questions.

edit: I wasn't trying to be controversial, the "Lance affect" is cool for me, on my side of the fence because I get to see more races either on the internet and hopefully soon on TV. Your experience is enlightening to the other side of it.

Answering a bit out of order here, will get to the others in a bit. My next race on the schedule is Vineman 70.3

I'll be honest, and I sort of answered before. I don't know. I put earlier up in my answer to the "Lance effect" question that I do think that it would be 'cool' to race Kona this year. But, that's not a big enough reason for me to go. I started this thread because a couple of folks thought it would be a good idea and because I do think that a lot of good info has been provided on Jordan's threads, not because a 5th place finish suddenly has me thinking I'm going to be a world champion! Maybe I'm selling myself short to think that an 8:30 at IMTX corresponds to an 8:30 at the IMWC. If it does, as I think that the courses and conditions were similar, then yeah I should go.

'If' I were sitting here with at least one win to my name, it would be pretty straightforward I would go, and really that isn't a jab at Jordan. He and I are in different stages of our racing careers. But, I've got 5th - 9th places at IMs with decent, but not WC caliber fields. I raced Kona as an age grouper. It was a good experience, so I have had that experience. And, when I raced it as an age grouper in 2002, I came out of the water with the pros and remember being 'in' that race for at least a little bit...they got a 10 meter not 10 minute head start.

So, right now, I'm weighing a couple of options. I am leaning towards building on what I felt was a solid/successful race at IMTX and try for a win somewhere than go for an 11th+ finish in Kona. I might decide on Kona, or maybe even a late run at the Rev3 series and go to Cedar Point. Or maybe an August and November IM. I really don't know. I have another week before training starts back up.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Congrats to you and many thanks for your very thoughtful answers .... very insightful, thanks!

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

How do you feel about how top heavy WTC continues to make their prize purses. Prior to April 1st, 2012 you would have gotten nearly twice as much prize money(can't remember exactly the amount) for 5th place in a $75,000 race. Now it's all being funnuled up to the 1st place paycheck. I don't know what WTC is gaining from doing this.

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Ruble Triathlon Coaching Average of 30 coached PR's per year
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What is the frame size on your P3?
Do you also train on a road bike?
How many times did you train on the IM TX course?

They say that those at the front of the race tend to dehydrate. Those at the end of the race tend to overhydrate. At least in marathons. My personal experience is that if I wait till I am thirsty over the course of an 8+ hour race, or even at times a 4 hour race, I get too far behind. So, I go with the timer. If it's cooler I might not drink quite as much, but it is pretty consistent across the board for me.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

No worries. I think that it's kind of cool in reality. I'm excited to see it or participate.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

I do most runs from my house in Austin, and some of that is to run to the gym to the treadmill. I have not run on the track since probably October of last year. So, the average breakdown might look like following...

Crushed Granite Trail (Town Lake) = Balance of 50% less the treadmill, so 35%
Treadmill = up to 15%
Roads, concrete, asphalt = 50%

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Appreciate your honestly. For some reason and from a somewhat quiet lurker on this site you always come across as such a genuine person. As a AGer, it's very interesting to hear how you think about your race schedule and how you make your living. I would think you would do really well at Cozumel or Arizona if you have another full in the mix.

Very (read: extremely) dumb hypothetical question but I will ask it anyway....feel free to ignore it. How would you and Amy do against Greg and Laura in a combined time race at the Olympic, 70.3 and IM distance? Best 2 of 3 wins and claims fastest married couple on the entire planet. I see them winning the Olympic. You guys winning the IM. The 70.3?

I don't like the 'new' structure. It is one of those things that it 'seems' like WTC rolled out and said 'note the new prize purse structure'. Kind of like they did with the 8% rule, but with no discussion opportunity for the prize money change. I do not know who comprises their athlete panel or if they have one. I have talked to Andrew Messick, but not necessarily about this, and I do think that if the pros spoke up a bit about this he would listen.

Jordan posted in a thread about a 'code of conduct'. I assume that he meant an official code of conduct as opposed to the suggestions for pro conduct that we have. A code of conduct more like ITU. I think that idea has at least some merit. I think that if pros were open to a discussion about our responsibilities in attempting to be more professional then WTC might also look at prize purses, etc. in a different light if there are enough pros who do not like the structure. A pro at IM Texas this weekend said that 'we' messed up when we didn't want the GPS units on us for some of the championship races last year I think it was. It would have certainly made the races 'easier' to follow as opposed to hoping that spotters showed up and knew who was who. Certainly if the online coverage was up, viewers could have picked out athletes positions very easy.

I don't know the answer or 'if' WTC will consider a change. I feel like ITU has a pretty good prize purse breakdown. I've said that before. I could single out athletes at IMTX that were listed to start and didn't show up and were in just about every pre race write up, including the one on ironman.com. If they (WTC or the athlete) knew in advance they were not racing, they should have been removed from the list so that at least the media looks good. Or, you can find any number of athletes who are on multiple start lists on the same weekend despite the 'request' that they not be or that when they make their decision that they let WTC know which race they are racing. I know some of it falls on the race directors or WTC to update the start lists, but we really need to make sure that 'if' we are asking for something or 'if' we are not ok with something that the pros have our ducks in a row as well. In an ITU race if you do not withdraw from a race before a certain amount of time you are penalized. If you don't make a mandatory meeting, there are repercussions. I'm not saying that WTC should do that, but a lot of folks point to the ITU as 'real professional triathlon', so I do think that things on both sides can be improved.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Long story about the frameset, but it centers around me keeping my mouth shut while the Mrs. got some bad advice about frame size: 56cm, I have about a 70mm extremely negative drop stem. 'IF' I move to a P5, I will be on either a 54 or 51 with an extra low bar.

I ride a road bike for just about any ride that I am NOT going to be in the aerobars for most of the ride.

I did not ride any part of the course prior to the race. We planned on it, but didn't make it to The Woodlands. I knew the terrain from growing up in the area, and we tried to replicate it as close as possible in Austin. The majority of our rides were east of Austin.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

I'm glad you put married couple in there because there are some seriously fast dating couples...so I'll have some fun with this...and it is just for fun.
- Stephen and Bella Bayliss: They are the true IronCouple. I favor my Mrs. and history has Mr. Bayliss ahead of me, so I think it is a draw.
- Michael and Amanda Lovato: Same as above.
- Trevor and Heather Wurtele: They won the NOLA duathlon challenge, we won the 70.3 TX Challenge. I think it would be a draw, but I'm not ready to concede that yet.
- Greg and Laura Bennett: I don't want to race the Bennetts. Greg has to be one of the biggest clutch performers. The IM is the unknown, but they are very tough.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

5'9" and you are on a 56 P3! Wow, you must have a long torso. You look aero but the 70mm stem makes me wonder a little. Great race!!

Again, long story. I have made it work pretty well, but it 'was' the bike of the Mrs. I am on a 70mm negative rise stem, probably -45 degrees. I also have a franken front end with modified pads, etc. on the Brezza Nano and ski bend extensions so my pads are actually behind the clamps. Here's hoping Cervelo and I get things ironed out before the next race!

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

I'll wear one, and I bet there are others who will. I don't think that Trakkers really exists anymore, so if anyone has a contact, send them this post.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Write the owner at john@myathletegps.com I have been trying for years to get pro's to utilize his technology which has been used at Kona and other IM's, but ....
I think Trakkers is dead since I have not seen anything for a while, but I could be wrong. MA now has a killer website which is, IMO, even more important than the HW.
Talk a look at the latest race using at http://www.myathletelive.com/...AngelRide/index.html or go to the main site to see who is wearing at.
http://www.myathletelive.com/

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Just want to say thanks for posting all of the info and answering questions. It's great hearing what you and Jordan do, especially power-wise on the bike. Is quite eye-opening, too!

If you guys need a place to crash in ABQ on the way to Flagstaff, let me know. Or, if you want to train out here for a few days over the summer, we've got some great running and riding.

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speedySTATES

You and Jordan should write a book on the engineering, mechanical, and aerodynamic aspects of triathlon. I think it would be well received.

I love how willing you and other Pro's have been at sharing information like this, helps put the effort in perspective for me. The one thing that I haven't seen much of is number's from any women, which I would love to share with my wife for the same type of perspective. Does your wife race with a power meter and would she be willing to share numbers?

Thanks,
~Greg

 I wanted to thank you for the reminder about cadence. I did my first open water swim with wetsuit today and tried to focus on your suggestion...also tried to avoid the trap of just going easy, so broke my workout down as 5 min warmup, 6x4min hard, 1 min easy, 15x40 seconds hard 20 second easy, cool down. Tried to focus on cadence/stroke rate the entire time. Initially found high cadence harder to do with wetsuit than without, but after 10 minutes and getting the feel of the wetsuit back, it was better.

By the way, you were trying/testing wetsuits from a new company that claim to be slightly more buoyant from within the 5 mm rule. I know you did not use that wetsuit at IM Texas, but are you at liberty to comment?

Thanks for folks like you and Rapp playing Q&A with us mere mortals. First, congrats on a great race and best of luck for a great season. Second, I was wondering if you could provide a glimpse into what an "average" weekly training schedule looks like for you, what training you did on the week of the race and finally how much training to you and Amy do together vs. apart?
Thanks,

Unfortunately, and really I'm not making this up, her Garmin decided not to download or be recognized or anything after the race. Probably the connection is bad with the USB cable, and I haven't been using the wireless one.

So, I am not sure. We/she was targeting north of 200. That's a pretty common number thrown around for a lot of the girls who probably weigh a bit either side of 130. And, her nose was in the wind for 112 miles...every single mile of it. She's using a newer HED Jet 6/9 combo on a P4 and Rudy helmet with the same tires, etc. There is more speed to be found with a disc and maybe cleaning up the bottles. But again, she rides (whether it makes complete sense or not) what she feels most comfortable with. If we are able to work out a P5, then the hydration will be cleaned up a bit...and maybe you'll see her on a disc later as well.

At times I don't understand at least 'some' of the reluctance for power data. 'IF' you ride with power, know weights, etc. then there are just certain thresholds that are needed to be hit to be at least somewhat competitive. Clearly Jordan and a few others just put out a bit more W/Kg than others so they ride faster. And there are a lot who make less than ideal equipment choices and ride harder than they need to in order to stay in contact. I was really surprised that Luke McKenzie 'only' needed 253 to go as quick as he did in Kona last year...someone posted that one.

While you or your wife or other age groupers might not hit the higher watts, making good equipment choices to maximize performance is key. And, doing some of the little things to go faster.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Well, it's Rocket Science that is sponsoring us for clothes and wetsuits. I don't know how much more buoyant the suits are. But, they do use an inner layer that is less dense than neoprene. The suits are lighter and 'feel' like they are at least the same buoyancy. But, I have not done much wetsuit swimming this year of any kind. What we are hoping to do is help out with suit design and tweaking. They are a company that, like TYR especially and Zoot to a degree, that can really offer a full service line of swim apparel and accessories, and their bags are awesome. As in, I usually don't give much thought to a transition bag, but the one we are using from them is great. And, I'm not just saying that.

I don't think too much about cadence. We did a swim clinic for our local athletes this past weekend. Getting the turnover up a bit and focusing less on the front part of the stroke is what we worked on. Why? Because with 1,000 of your closest friends swimming with you, you just can't have a great front part of your stroke, so the rest of it becomes more important. And, the practice in a wetsuit, especially if your 'A' race is wetsuit legal, is imperative.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

QFT

Do you prefer to race as a team (with Amy) or stag? If stag, do you prefer to have Amy with you or at home?

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-- Aaron Davidson

Thanks for the info. Looks like my Ironman goal is to ride like a girl! (albeit at a higher weight)

Dev,

I am pretty sure that one comment you made in here is incorrect. Specifically in my experience engineers who are at the top have spent an entire career working like crazy, learning, developing new skills etc. I do not believe that you can take a substantial time off and expect to be a top engineer.


This is not to say that the time doing non-traditional things is wasted. Or that the skills that you have to acquire to make being a pro-triathlete work are not useful in the life after triathlon. But to say that you can realistically not work in engineering for years and come back and catch up just isnt right. I suspect that it is possible to come back and make have an impactful job in something engineering related - perhaps technical sales? But the top level of engineering is probably gone when you make the decision to walk away.


I deeply admire people like Brandon and Jordan who decided to do something different. There are definitely days I wish that I had the courage to try a different path.



Alan

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Checkout http://www.iotexpert.com

Than you.

A truly great thread.

Alan

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Checkout http://www.iotexpert.com

We will be passing through on Thursday. Got a BBQ restaurant redo? Or a New Mexican food place? I'm familiar with the flat stacked enchiladas with an egg on top, but we get a pretty good dose of Tex-Mex or Mex in Austin.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Well, it's been and continues to be a good thread I think. Regarding the training, I kind of posted before that's a bit between me and Paulo. I will say that even earlier in the year, I found myself asking to do 'more'. Not because however long ago he said 'more is more', but because I just figured 'more' was needed. And, as someone who coaches a limited number of age groupers, it is really tough to get some of them to understand that they do not need to do more training all year, and it was something that I thought was needed. So, I had to take a dose of my own medicine. If you are doing an IM, then I think that it helps to do a bit more than normal in the last 8 weeks (not for 50 weeks!), but I have always thought that. So...

Race week I guarantee you was a lot less than what most athletes would do, my total training time might have been equal to the race time. That is likely because I had more to rest from. If you are not training a big volume, then physically you shouldn't rest as much as you will likely lose fitness. What you should do is try as much as possible to reduce the external stresses. Lastly, and this isn't necessarily about my specific training, just free advice maybe...I believe that it matters much less what you do leading in to a race and more what you do (or don't do) AFTER the race to recover...if it is not you last race of the year.

I think that I posted earlier that I was around 13-15 hours on the bike, 6-8 on the run, and I swim a lot (upwards of 20k).

Amy and I train together a lot in that we'll start almost all runs together, but might go different routes. We will ride together, but lately we have been making sure each of us stick to what we need to do. It means riding the same route a lot of times, but on a good day I'll be ahead. And on a not as good day, it'll be all I can do to stay ahead. A trap that some guys (who are faster than their SO) can get into is riding a bit easier to ride next to their partner. We are good that way in that she'll make sure I'm not going 'too easy' to ride with her. We will swim together, but I can get by swimming by myself more than she can, so there are weeks where she might swim 2-3x with a group and me 1-2x.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

so do you focus on high turnover in the pool a lot or just swim and then do it in races (seems like this would be hard to do). I'm decent in the pool, but get my butt kicked in the ocean all the time, and it's not just my poor sighting.

I think that there is truth to both, but it depends on what kind of engineer or engineering. I have learned 'skills' from my triathlon career that I would never have learned from a day to day engineering job. Those are as the Mastercard commercial says "priceless". And, I do think that those 'skills' are applicable to the world of engineering, depending on the focus.

But, if I were focusing on more technical engineering when I was in that world, I would definitely not be able to just jump back into it. And, even if I did get back into the more technical aspects at this time, I don't think that I would ever reach the same proficiency had I continued uninterrupted.

I did 'softer' engineering...water, wastewater, air pollution control, permitting, etc.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Depends. In 2009, we raced IMWI together. In 2010-2011 we didn't race nearly as much together. This year, we are back to racing together more. I think that I speak for both of us when I say we like that better. With an IM, it can be a bit more stressful since the training load hits as the same time and the races are a bit more involved.

Long story short, we like racing together. The 2nd half of the season may split, but for our bigger late season IMs, we'll probably both go and only one race.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

What is your highest aspiration as a professional triathlete?

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

I am obsessive in the pool. Watching bubbles, my hands, etc. I focus on keeping the same stroke all the time. I just got a text from a good friend of mine in Austin who is also a swim coach. He nailed a set that he hadn't hit in a LONG time. He's been working on just getting his arms moving as well, and this isn't a conversation we had together...just kind of both mutually came to a similar conclusion. I find that I end up 'softening' the catch part of the stroke and focus more on the push and finish.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Replying to Brandon and Alan:

1. You can be an engineer and make good money without being a "top engineer". But if you want to be at the top of the field at the pointy end of worldwide competition then a long hiatus won't work
2. You can return to engineering as a middle age guy and choose to enter in a junior job that reflects experience and not chronological age
3. You can also go back and do some school, professional development prior to re entering at "2"
4. ....and yes, I think you could get into sales of technical products, but that's not engineering, that's sales :-)

But I think our sales team could do with guys like Brandon. In the seminconductor business there is a podium of one only. You either win the socket, and all the revenue that comes with it, or you are out and depending on the type of account it could be a year, it could 5 years. There is zero dollars for second place...a guy who is in sales who has lived the life of a pro triathlete would get that dynamic really quickly!!! Being a pro triathlete is a dog eat dog world to just put groceries on the table....sales guys in tech companies generally don't have to worry about paying for groceries.

A thought overlooked by many, but typically acknowledged is that the "skills" that makes a person successful in one area, typically will allow that person to be as successfully in any "task" that person undertakes.


It's actually one of the reasons, I'm surprised more employers don't place additional value on employees who have "successful" hobbies/activities outside of work.

Thanks for the previous response. One last question. Earlier you stated that your career is beginning to wind down. What do you think would be one last realistic goal, or one last high note to end with?

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-- Aaron Davidson

A coach of mine had the nice quote for this
"excellence is a transferable skill"
Still I'm pretty sure I'm earning less money than if I never did any sports.

I think you, Brandon and I are thinking alike.

Unfortunately most corporate hiring managers do not think that way. They generally want clones of themselves, with same education and experience background. Granted in engineering fields for example if you are going to layout a 28 nm semiconductor you need the tranferable skills first and then many years of experience to even touch a project like that, but there are many roles where this is not required. Worse yet, for some reason guys think that the person marketing or selling semiconductors shoud have 15 years of experience engineering them....these are the least affective guys at the game (that's my personal experience being able to hammer ineffective competition) :-). Don't know what the story is in heavy equipment, petro chemical etc etc.... or in consumer...look at RIM...eventually engineers can only take something so far. then you need guys who know how to out innovate, out market and out perform the competition. I think some of the skills that guys like Brandon are developing in sport are directly tranferable to industry, but you need a semi enlightened hiring guy to see through that. Those types of guy are few, but if you find them, then it is gravy train.

Dev

Interestingly, there is a long standing tradition of Wall St. firms hiring rowers, regardless of major/GPA/etc. Now, certainly some of this is nepotism - there are a lot of rowers in senior positions at Wall St. firms because rowing was (and is still) predominantly an Ivy League sport - but it's also a byproduct of the realization that rowers understand teamwork, long hours, anonymity within the team (in rowing, there is no "MVP"; the boat succeeds or fails together), hard work, etc. So I do think there are firms that really do value "outside experience." And I'd bet the ones that do are often very successful. IDEO comes to mind as a prime example.

But from a "hard" science point of view, I think you have to be immersed to be good. That's obviously true of triathlon, and I can see it with my sister and her husband, who are both extraordinary physicians (both are MD-PhDs who just received faculty positions at Johns-Hopkins). They couldn't take a year away from medicine. Now, I think they could still be involved "with" medicine, but not as doctors. Maybe like MPH or something. And I expect that the same is true for me as an engineer. I've toyed with the idea of going to grad school, but I think even that might be overwhelming for me. Could I really go back and do PhD level research? (A PhD is the only thing that interests me at the graduate level.) I don't know. Part of me doesn't think so. I'm just so far removed from that world. But I do think I could be involved as a technical employee. Probably, dare I say it, a "manager." Duh-duh-duh-dun...

But I think the world has grown increasingly specialized. Just look at the sport of triathlon itself. You used to be able to race all distances. Now you really do have to specialize. I think the greater world - in any "skill" oriented field - is going to be the same.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Is the time on the treadmill due to inclement weather, or planned intentionally for other reasons?

Finally have some reliable internet, and a 'smart phone' doesn't always cut it.

I think that 'most' pros who are not at the top of the top want to win a race. And, that means something different for some pros. It always comes up when discussing the merits of Race A vs. Race B or Rev vs. WTC to some degree. A win can mean $$ and a win can mean a 'title' of sorts.

A high note to end on would be to race Kona in 2013, I might be able to sneak in this year, but I've got another goal or two and IMTX was a step in that direction. That would essentially wrap up 25ish years in tri. And, a high note would be to win a 70.3 and an IM. None of those are 'easy'. And, as I have said outloud maybe in writing...no one 'deserves' to win a race even though people tend to say that a lot, but I feel like I could make a case for that. But, I stand by it that everyone works hard who is at or near the top. At least they do now.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Depends on the time of the year. In TX it gets really hot, and I feel that workouts can be better quality if done inside, even if there isn't as much moving air. So, I like to do the TM sessions in the heat of the summer.

I also finds that it can help with pacing or at least locking into a pace.

And finally, when we run in Austin, we run from our house a lot. The roads are really crowned, so I chose the sidewalk over the streets. And, you just can't run 'fast' on the sidewalk with all the ups and downs on curbs, etc. I'll do some faster running on town lake trail, but I don't like to 'have' to drive 15+ minutes to run, so I go for convenience.

This summer we are trying Flagstaff, so it is high 7,000 feet. I will probably do some treadmill work for higher intensity or turnover/fartlek type workouts.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

I think that one of the biggest contributors that 'sport' can have/add, but might not always add, is the people aspect of it. When I was in engineering, a lot of the managers were there not because of how they could deal with people. 'Most' of them were there because they were good at what they did...which a lot of times was engineering. They were terrible with people. And, of course there was a 'technical' and 'managerial' track, but that really didn't mean anything. Is it a reflection on where I worked, probably.

So, I do think that those who want to remain technical have to stay in the field 9 out of 10 times. And, it does depend on the type of engineering, do you want to do hard/technical engineering or soft/paper engineering. For the latter, I think that you can take a break and get those skills back. One of the biggest thing that engineering or maybe even college for that matter teaches is how to think, certainly a lot of people don't go to engineering school because they are good with people. Generally speaking of course.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Do you do double runs or bikes(in one day)? what is your longest run-miles and longest bike/ brick? how many days a week do you swim? what size cranks do you and amy ride?
thnx and congrats!

I think that's true. One other thing that I'll add - and I'll credit Jim Gourley because he was the one who said it - is that in addition to the people side of things, there's also the "functional" aspect of things that I think you can develop outside of the field as long as you still maintain some level of interest (not sure if that's the right word) in the field. Basically, Jim's comment was that he thought I (thought I'm not sure) would have some value as a project-management/product-development type of guy with the capacity to say, "it's supposed to do THIS." Basically a functionality/usability/etc. type of person. I remember this was one of the best part of my summer job in college - as a race car mechanic. I remember my mentors there telling me, "engineers are great. They are the ones that design all this stuff. BUT, keep in mind that according the engineers, nothing should ever break. But it does. And when it does, they just care about why. But we need to figure out how to fix it, whether we know why or not." And I've tried to never lose that aspect of practicality. One of the reason I train on "race wheels" all the time is that when people say, "are Zipps durable?" I can say, "yes, and not just because they pass some CEN fatigue test for braking/impact/whatever - which they do. It's because they do all that AND because guys like me go out and put thousands of miles on them riding all kinds of roads in all kinds of conditions relying on them every day in training."

i tried to allude to that in my Quarq post - ultimately, it's about how fast you go, not how low your VI is or how many watts you produce. It's about results. And I think that can be a value. I think Apple has done the best job of demonstrating this in a major way in the "real world." Apple computers - generally speaking - SUCK from a specifications standpoint. They, generally, have worse everything (except battery life and - maybe - LCDs) than the equivalent PC. And they are more expensive. BUT, people want them. I love mine. And the reason is that they "work." Apple basically killed spec. Processor speed, etc. just doesn't matter. Battery life does, which is why I think it's one spec that Apple cares about. And Apple has even created new specs. Like weight. Until the Macbook Air, "weight" wasn't really a spec that people cared about the way they do now.

And I think that's also one area where having a job like being a pro triathlete can be an asset. As much as it's great to have the fastest bike, wheels, helmet etc - I love to geek out over that stuff - you still have to train hard and win. Now, I certainly don't agree with the luddites who seem to view the two as mutually exclusive. It's not either/or. And I think that a guy like you (and hopefully me too) really understands that. And I think that also has a huge value in "the real world."

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Generally speaking, and I think that I posted one or two of these types of answers.

I might do 1 double run a week. My longest run so far has been just over 20 miles. Again, I was 20 weeks into a new 'program' for IMTX. So, I don't know how things might change moving forward.

My longest bricks were two half-ironman races. I'm not being cryptic, but that's what they were. I would do a 'transition' run after my long rides, but it was short.

My swim frequency is also pretty high, even for someone who comes from a swimming background. Not an elite swimming background, but a swim background nonetheless. 5-6 days a week. You will find this to be the case for almost all good professional triathletes.

I have done double-bikes in the past. I have had my athletes do double bikes. For the athletes I coach, it is because they can fit 2x1 hour and not 1x2 hour. I know that there are critics who will disagree, and disagree strongly at that. And, those critics may have some very very good results. And, maybe a double bike workout will show up in the rest of my season. But, I don't think that a double bike is much better than a single longer ride. I can see both sides of the story, but at times I think that 2 rides in a day leads to 2 mediocre rides as opposed to one really good one especially in an IM build.

I ride 170mm cranks. Amy rides the same.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

**rationalization alert**

Apple sells because white people love them. Apple was able to build a sense of community with their products. You're cool because you own an Apple product. It's got nothing to do with the products working or not. It's all about marketing.

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The Triathlon Squad

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Thanks branden and congrats to you guys. I'm sorry if this was mentioned, but i was curious who is coaching you guys now?
Good luck with the next race.

As much as I hate it when other people do this on posts...

This guy ^^^^^

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

I think Apple has made itself cool and part of an image. But like JR says, their products work pretty well. I think the general Apple user just wants a computer they can turn on and use, and they love going to a Genius who can help them out. And the whole Apple store phenomenon is just phenomenal--it cams at a time when Gaetway lost their ass in retail.

Anyway, I think there are many instances where double workouts can be helpful. In other sports like swimming, double workouts are standard. I don't really know how to reconcile that with the high quality needed from most bike workouts. The practical nature of doing two workouts so that you can get in the miles is obvious. But I feel like you lose a bit of time to warmup and warmdown. It's been difficult for me to deal with this and the fatigue aspects of this type of training. I don't know if you have any words of wisdom, BM, but I'd like to hear what you have to say about this a little more.

Rapp, you can do the PhD program. I think getting a PhD is the greatest academic pursuit available--moreso than the MD/PhD. The level of focus and expertise developed is amazing. But it does require careful planning, focus, and the ability to adapt when things go wrong--they always do. So I applaud your interest, JR, but just make sure you have a burning desire to succeed if you decide to apply.

I guess I do a double or triple on most days :) My thoughts for bike/run are kind of as follows...
- Run it can help for mileage or to loosen up for the next day or for a PM workout. I think if some athletes try to do a hard double run, they open themselves up for a greater injury chance. And, I'd rather do or see people do 1x60minutes vs. 2x30minutes...unless they are for some reason really focusing on frequency. But, that is something that Jon Warren from Houston told me years ago when I ran with his club in college.
- Bike, I just feel like my first workout suffers a bit since I know I have another one later if it is hard, unless one of them is 'just' for mileage. Or the second one ends up suffering if the first one is a really smashing workout. So, I would rather spend more time at one time on my bike. Again, there are some very good athletes who do a lot of double rides.
- Bike/Run, I think that for some age groupers, it can make sense to do a hard bike and run on the same day. As long as recovery is ok...like at least 2 days of easy/very easy runs or rides. Swimming most AGers should not really do too easy since 'most' aren't doing much more than 9-10k a week...so it needs to count.

The fatigue aspect is individual, but I think that for most age groupers, trying to fit in 1 track workout, 1 tempo run, 1 long run, and the equivalent bikes is too much. I mean there are no secrets really, but it doesn't all have to get done in one week! And, I do think that for cycling a shorter warm-up and certainly cool down can be done. The first interval of any sucks, so while it counts, it's really just an extension of warm-up.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Why is that?

A wetsuit changes your stroke. Or at least a lot of times it makes you more aware that you are using certain muscles. It changes your body position. So, for these reasons, if you have a wetsuit legal race coming up you should swim in your wetsuit. Warm-up in it and take it off after warm up. It doesn't have to be in open water, but clearly the open water training helps.

It's the same as riding on race wheels in training. They handle differently. I'm not saying use them all the time, but use them some. It can be the leading in to the race, or just some random time. Yeah, you're going to look like a dork, but if you want to eliminate race day surprises, then use the race wheels in training.

And running too. We have migrated to rotating through one or two pair of shoes and one of those pairs is going to be what we race in.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |