it looked kinda like this :)

Brandon - How did you attach the single cage behind you saddle? My wife has a P3 and I have been trying to figure out a way to do it.

Similar to Jordan. I mostly look at time, cadence, 3s power, and then lap or average power. I had my laps set for 4 miles...10ish minutes. So, it would chirp and I'd usually end up drinking or something.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

I think that I am about equal, and my open water I think has improved. I am obsessive at times about my stroke, watching my hands, looking for bubbles. I just really like swimming. But, what has made my open water swimming 'better' is focusing on working on my stroke so that I have a slightly quicker turnover or at least minimizing any pauses in my stroke...like in the front. The faster turnover allows me to swim better in a group and respond to 'moves' if needed. I'll count my strokes all the time, but that is to eliminate boredom.

The thing that I have noticed about those that are better, much better, in open water is that they are not the prettiest pool swimmers and end up having a really choppy fast stroke in the pool. RichieC for example. And, Brett, Joel, Paulo, and others have posted about fitness. It is about fitness, though that applies mainly to people who never really put in a big block of swimming. In a pool you get to rest every 14-40 strokes. In open water you don't. So, it really helps to find a stroke that you can maintain for 3800m/2.4 miles. More open water swimming can help with this, but 'most' triathletes just dork around too much in open water. It helps to have a buoy line or other set of markers so that you can be more focused in those workouts.

The thing about guys like Andy Potts is that he can probably keep his pool stroke in open water since he is out front all day. And, if I can get to the front then it's 'easier' to maintain that pool stroke...generally longer and slower turnover. But, to improve your pool swimming, the best way is really to get really good turns, and to focus on all the things like DPS, etc.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Great thread brandon..... very fun reading!

I think one of the most valuable lesson i had in swimming open water was from greg bennett. That guy isnt a rock star in the pool but one of the best open water guy there is. He could do all the tricks and no one could match is turnover. that s what he told me, kept turning your arms fast....specificly in the draft....high rpm and dont worrie about efficency.

That was enough for me to swim in those front group (not the breakaway) coming from no swimming background. i always notice that the selection happen around 400-800m.,.... seems like everyone slowdown at that point and those that dont and kept the rpm up and move to a pair of reliable feet or good position in the group make it..... those that simply stick where they are and stop looking for oportunity to move up get drop.

I have never seen the early acceleration as a place where selection happen tho....

Also, i think you should costumize that tail of your aerohelmet and get it longer to touch your back....might be free speed there ;)

kept the awesome work and fantastic race!

.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Who cut your hair?

Good job Tex, the older the violin, the sweeter the music.

-bobo

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"What's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded."

That's interesting. There seems to be a real convergence on the idea of higher stroke rate for OW. My coach said the same thing. And if you watch the video of Thomas Lurz and Ryan Cochrane at the Tiburon Mile, it's amazing to see how high Lurz's stroke rate is - 100spm or so. Sutton talked about that as well, how the Brownlees have incredible turnover and can maintain it for 1500m.

Like most folks who came to racing swimming late in life (I'd always known "how to swim"), I got the same advice as a lot of folks (I think) - longer is better, DPS, etc. But for OW, it seems the opposite is true. Focus on getting the highest stroke rate that is still efficient and sustainable. I've actually found my swimming in the pool - but moreso in races I think - has improved (though I have only really WF and IMTX to reference) as I've focused this year just on keeping my stroke rate high in the race. Not like spinning my wheels high, but certainly as high as is comfortable and not caring if I'm not really finishing or catching cleanly. As long as the stroke is "good enough," more cadence is better.

Good to see that you also seem to be coming to the same conclusion. And Jonnyo. And GB. Etc, etc.

I've been thinking about getting a tempo trainer for this, not for what most people seem to use it for - to slow down their strokes - but to speed it up.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I'm one of those SAS (slow as shit) swimmers, but I had an instructor stick one of these trainers in my cap to speed up my turnover. It was pretty cool to have immediate feedback and to feel the difference as you increased the tempo.

nothing to ask, just thank you for taking the time to answer all the qs.. very interesting to get this kind of thoughtful analysis..

I've read the articles over at the sports scientists, such as http://www.sportsscientists.com/...and-exercise_21.html, and some of the info by Noaks (not trying to start a war with the Noaks' haters, just using a reference point), who seem to advocate that drinking to time may not be the best method, especially when the conditions, efforts, pre-race levels, etc can vary. They suggest that drinking to thirst is sufficient. I. myself, have found that I fail to recognize when I'm thirsty and will also drink to time. I struggle with varying my intake in different conditions.

Do find that you need to adjust your hydration strategies during the different conditions? How do you go about doing this/ determining this mid-race?

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Bodybuilder? Thank you? I hear the camera adds at least 10 pounds. 5'9". 143-150 depending on if I'm having a fat day or a skinny day.

Yeah, I thought I might scale back a bit. There were a few factors at work, but the short answer is yes...and I'm not sure why I just figured it would be time. But at the same time, I never felt like I gave racing professionally a good enough go or had a good enough race (IM). So, desperation will make you do crazy things! :) I didn't want to stop racing, start the next phase and say 'what if'. As a bit of a follow up to Dev's question, when I finish racing I want to have fun with being active, make a living doing something I enjoy at that time and not want to go back.

I hear Tucson is hot in the summer, like ridiculously hot. But, I would like to climb Mt. Lemmon.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

I probably rode at an RPE of 7, increasing to 8.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Single cage on the rear? ATC George and maybe Jonnyo came up with it. I am sure others, but i give credit to them. It is a Minora behind the saddle carrier. It involves using just the bottle cage portion and some of the nuts and bolts and a dremel tool. It is mounted in the top hole of the 2 holes in the seatpost. If your saddle is too far back, you'll have a difficult time making it work, and even still it take a bit of work. All things considered it is pretty cleanly done.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

What percentage of your run training do you do on non-concrete surfaces? Trails, track, grass, treadmill, etc?

I may have missed it, but what are your race plans the rest of the year?

Thanks, it's pretty incredible to have the best of the sport in here answering normal people's questions.

edit: I wasn't trying to be controversial, the "Lance affect" is cool for me, on my side of the fence because I get to see more races either on the internet and hopefully soon on TV. Your experience is enlightening to the other side of it.

Answering a bit out of order here, will get to the others in a bit. My next race on the schedule is Vineman 70.3

I'll be honest, and I sort of answered before. I don't know. I put earlier up in my answer to the "Lance effect" question that I do think that it would be 'cool' to race Kona this year. But, that's not a big enough reason for me to go. I started this thread because a couple of folks thought it would be a good idea and because I do think that a lot of good info has been provided on Jordan's threads, not because a 5th place finish suddenly has me thinking I'm going to be a world champion! Maybe I'm selling myself short to think that an 8:30 at IMTX corresponds to an 8:30 at the IMWC. If it does, as I think that the courses and conditions were similar, then yeah I should go.

'If' I were sitting here with at least one win to my name, it would be pretty straightforward I would go, and really that isn't a jab at Jordan. He and I are in different stages of our racing careers. But, I've got 5th - 9th places at IMs with decent, but not WC caliber fields. I raced Kona as an age grouper. It was a good experience, so I have had that experience. And, when I raced it as an age grouper in 2002, I came out of the water with the pros and remember being 'in' that race for at least a little bit...they got a 10 meter not 10 minute head start.

So, right now, I'm weighing a couple of options. I am leaning towards building on what I felt was a solid/successful race at IMTX and try for a win somewhere than go for an 11th+ finish in Kona. I might decide on Kona, or maybe even a late run at the Rev3 series and go to Cedar Point. Or maybe an August and November IM. I really don't know. I have another week before training starts back up.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Congrats to you and many thanks for your very thoughtful answers .... very insightful, thanks!

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

How do you feel about how top heavy WTC continues to make their prize purses. Prior to April 1st, 2012 you would have gotten nearly twice as much prize money(can't remember exactly the amount) for 5th place in a $75,000 race. Now it's all being funnuled up to the 1st place paycheck. I don't know what WTC is gaining from doing this.

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Ruble Triathlon Coaching Average of 30 coached PR's per year
Florida Triathlon Camps Train in North Americas winter training destination
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What is the frame size on your P3?
Do you also train on a road bike?
How many times did you train on the IM TX course?

They say that those at the front of the race tend to dehydrate. Those at the end of the race tend to overhydrate. At least in marathons. My personal experience is that if I wait till I am thirsty over the course of an 8+ hour race, or even at times a 4 hour race, I get too far behind. So, I go with the timer. If it's cooler I might not drink quite as much, but it is pretty consistent across the board for me.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

No worries. I think that it's kind of cool in reality. I'm excited to see it or participate.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

I do most runs from my house in Austin, and some of that is to run to the gym to the treadmill. I have not run on the track since probably October of last year. So, the average breakdown might look like following...

Crushed Granite Trail (Town Lake) = Balance of 50% less the treadmill, so 35%
Treadmill = up to 15%
Roads, concrete, asphalt = 50%

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Appreciate your honestly. For some reason and from a somewhat quiet lurker on this site you always come across as such a genuine person. As a AGer, it's very interesting to hear how you think about your race schedule and how you make your living. I would think you would do really well at Cozumel or Arizona if you have another full in the mix.

Very (read: extremely) dumb hypothetical question but I will ask it anyway....feel free to ignore it. How would you and Amy do against Greg and Laura in a combined time race at the Olympic, 70.3 and IM distance? Best 2 of 3 wins and claims fastest married couple on the entire planet. I see them winning the Olympic. You guys winning the IM. The 70.3?

I don't like the 'new' structure. It is one of those things that it 'seems' like WTC rolled out and said 'note the new prize purse structure'. Kind of like they did with the 8% rule, but with no discussion opportunity for the prize money change. I do not know who comprises their athlete panel or if they have one. I have talked to Andrew Messick, but not necessarily about this, and I do think that if the pros spoke up a bit about this he would listen.

Jordan posted in a thread about a 'code of conduct'. I assume that he meant an official code of conduct as opposed to the suggestions for pro conduct that we have. A code of conduct more like ITU. I think that idea has at least some merit. I think that if pros were open to a discussion about our responsibilities in attempting to be more professional then WTC might also look at prize purses, etc. in a different light if there are enough pros who do not like the structure. A pro at IM Texas this weekend said that 'we' messed up when we didn't want the GPS units on us for some of the championship races last year I think it was. It would have certainly made the races 'easier' to follow as opposed to hoping that spotters showed up and knew who was who. Certainly if the online coverage was up, viewers could have picked out athletes positions very easy.

I don't know the answer or 'if' WTC will consider a change. I feel like ITU has a pretty good prize purse breakdown. I've said that before. I could single out athletes at IMTX that were listed to start and didn't show up and were in just about every pre race write up, including the one on ironman.com. If they (WTC or the athlete) knew in advance they were not racing, they should have been removed from the list so that at least the media looks good. Or, you can find any number of athletes who are on multiple start lists on the same weekend despite the 'request' that they not be or that when they make their decision that they let WTC know which race they are racing. I know some of it falls on the race directors or WTC to update the start lists, but we really need to make sure that 'if' we are asking for something or 'if' we are not ok with something that the pros have our ducks in a row as well. In an ITU race if you do not withdraw from a race before a certain amount of time you are penalized. If you don't make a mandatory meeting, there are repercussions. I'm not saying that WTC should do that, but a lot of folks point to the ITU as 'real professional triathlon', so I do think that things on both sides can be improved.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |