Well good morning sunshine!! Have you not noticed the increasing number of races requiring qualification? (IMW, IMC, IMH, Alcatraz.....)

But then we'd never have the JohnnyO.

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____________________________________________________
"don't you know that slow is the new fast? :)" -Turtlegirl
"I'm not a Dr., I just played one with your mom...." Stallion1031

i like the idea of qualifying for an IM race by doing halfs first and what not. Something to really strive towards. But i would hate to see them try and make everyone race an official 70.3 race in order to qualify for an IM. That would suck.

Question for you. What makes you think that the folks that run Ironman are interested in weeding people out and raising the level of competition? The complaints are from the aspiring participants and not the company. HOWEVER, as long as folks lay down the credit card nothing will change. A solution is for you to not sign up, look at ironman.com, or watch it on NBC. Apparantly you are in the minority in your thinking. Otherwise, they would have done this years ago.

Ironman is a business and business is GOOD! Why change a good business?

You said it.

People stopped respecting the distance a long time ago.

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Matt Amman

I like the idea of qualifying. I would have enjoyed the process of training for and racing a 1/2IM with that goal in mind, knowing that if I wanted Ironman, I'd have to earn it the hard way. As previously stated, there's absolutely no incentive for IMNA or WTC to do this, but from a competitor's perspective, it would make the title of Ironman even more elusive and desirable, for what it's worth.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

"...should be entitled..."

Here's we're you're off base. No one is "entitled". It's first come first serve and why shouldn't it be?

I think a good business model would somehow give preference to those that are shown to be more competitive as, and I guess here, that those that are competitive are more than likely repeat customers. I would think it might make sense, in order to not piss good customers off, that a qualifing time would get you a registration prior to "open" registration.

Again however there is no impotice or reason for an RD or organization to do this, other than possibly good customer service.

Other than that, every man/woman for themselves.

~Matt

"Do you honestly think someone who runs a 31 minute 5K should be entitled a spot to IM Florida over a someone who goes under 5 hours in a Half IM? Just because he had a better faster Internet connection?"

In a word, yes.

Just like most things in this world, we are not "entitled" to anything. I run a much faster 5K than the person you know, but I don't have $450 to drop on a race. Does that mean I should be "entitled" to a spot even though he has the money to do it? Heck no!

Maybe this person you know will get in train hard and get in good enough shape to compete up to whatever standards you think are good enough. Maybe the person will freak out in the water and quit after swimming 10 minutes. Regardless, it's his money and time and he should have the right to do whatever he wants.

Completing an Ironman means many things to many people. However, it is a business to the people who run Ironman. I am sure that it will remain as is until people stop signing up because of the current structure. Otherwise, the race won't be on the course. The real race will be this Sunday when everyone tries to sign up.

I personally would love to see some requirements put in place for some of the more desireable races (IMLP, IMC) simply because it might increase my chances to get in. :-)

i had an interesting conversation with a fellow Masters swimmer yesterday after our workout. She is 21 and a collegiate water polo player (who swims with us off-season to stay in shape). She also has done a couple sprint tris. She said that she can't envision herself doing an IM simply because of the cost....even though she would like to. And she had never heard of any of the independant IM races that many of us would recommend as an alternative. To her IM and M-Dot races are one and the same. Just an anecdote....but symptomatic of the issue that WTC will be facing as the demographic of IM participants gets older (and wealthier)...there are not a lot of young people entering the sport. When I did IMLP in 99, entry fee was under $200....which then was a lot for me, I was 28 and not making a ton of $$. If the entry was what it is today( i.e nearly $500), I could have not afforded to race.

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__________________
JP

my twitter feed

That just doesn't make any business sense to put requirements on the races that already exist, when they can keep adding races until they feel a saturation point has been reached. And we don't seem very close to that seeing how Louisville filled up in 8 days.

Now if I get shut out of Registering for IMFL 07 I will come back and revise this post :]

Mark

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http://www.mctriguy.blogspot.com

Why? They get the $$ up front either way, and have decided they're going to be there until midnight on race night anyway. They've appealed to the masses, and have a more successful business model than most buisnesses dream of. Take your anger to a non IMNA race if you feel that way.

Get off your high horse. If you want a different set of rules regarding sign-up, then get your pro card.

I agree it is damn good business and would give back the prestige to Ironman races b/c frankly, if a 31 minute 5K guy is doing an Ironman, Ironman loses it's prestige, competitiveness, and reputation for being a race for a fit triathlete

Okay, I'll bite: how does a 5k time indicate *anyone's* level of preparedness for an IM?

This 31-minute 5k guy---is that the only race he's ever done?

I like the discussion, however, how come whenever this topic comes up people keep bringing up the "it's a business" stuff. Yes, it is a business - I think we all "get" that!

Let's talk about solutions and not "it's a business".

I like the idea about giving preference to prior IM participants / finishers. Just give these people a 1-2 hour head start when online registration opens...then open the gates to all-comers. Seems only fair. The repeat IM racers, shall I say, the hardcore racers, should be taken care of. The "one timers" can still get their shot too.

I have not done an IM yet, but I did do a 1/2 this summer, and I am planning on beating a path to IMFL reg with the rest of the hopeful.

I like the idea of qualifing for IM distance races as a way to keep some of the luster on them, but agree witht he others that as long as WTC is a for profit company you will more likely see the trend in the other direction - more races, slower overall times, and an open invitation from WTC that says "got $500 come be and Ironman!" The likely direction is going to be more coddling, more crowded races and higher profits for RD's bike/componant companies and the rest of the supporting crew. None of the people involved in the sport want to make it for exceptional athletes. They want to make it available to EVERYONE.

If you really want to make it easier to get into races, I think you woudl have more luck waving the banner for more races across the country. If there were 20 IM distance races across the US and Canada I would think that everbody tat wanted to race MDot coudl get into a race. Now if you must race at a given venue, be prepared to take a sick day to sit in front of your computer screen with everyone else.

-Added- What I would really like to see is a system that allowed for people to drop out (for whatever reason) and for those slots to be reopened to the public. That way you might have a chance of not having to plan for a full year ahead. Call it a waiting list, or re-open a second regestration day.

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This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time. - Fight Club
Industry Brat.

I still don't know if what you are proposing makes sense from a business standpoint. I remember reading an article addressing this issue when it came to running marathons. The complaint was that marathons have lost their mystique because you have many people who take 6-7 hours and walk the whole thing. What the author found was that the majority of elite shooting for Boston runners loved that more people did the races because that meant more exposure to the sport and more prize money for them. I don't know for sure, but many elite triathletes probably feel the same way.

I disagree with you that WTC has a large enough pool to start turning people (and their money) away. The Ironman WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP just happened and I can't see it on television until December during one of the crappiest times to air a television program (Saturday afternoon). Our top pro athletes stay at budget motels while a 3rd string football player can afford first class.

Triathlon is a rapidly growing sport, but it's not mainstream. It's not football or baseball. Heck, it's not even as big marathon running! WTC knows this so they probably should keep things the way they are for now.

"Let's talk about solutions and not "it's a business"."

How can you talk about one without the other. Simply "providing ideas" does no good if the likely hood or feesibilty of implementation is useless. The point of these types of discussion is to try and come up with a reasonable solution. You can't come up with a reasonable solution if you ignore one or more of the major influencing factors. In this case oen fo the major influenceing factors is MONEY. Unless you can come up with a reason for the RD's that the "Solution" will not effect or will enhance the bottom line, what point is there in discussing it?

~Matt

Our top pro athletes stay at budget motels while a 3rd string football player can afford first class

According to the new MLB player's collective bargaining agreement, the new minimum salary for a MLB player is $380k/yr, increasing to $400k in 2009.

Crazy, huh?

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__________________
JP

my twitter feed

..........meanwhile they have a program for the Chicago Tri where they ask people to house pro triathletes because they can't always afford a hotel room.

And there are some of us who want to make Ironman more exclusive????

You said it : triathlon is a race

but -> Ironman is a business



respect the distance

"According to the new MLB player's collective bargaining agreement, the new minimum salary for a MLB player is $380k/yr, increasing to $400k in 2009."



And from an email I received yesterday from the RD of the Musselman tri:



"Through our "Adopt-A-Pro" program, you can opt to spend $25 (for
one night) or $50 (for two nights) toward accommodations for a lucky
yet cash-strapped professional triathlete. You will be paired with an ITU
Pan American Cup competitor who has agreed to stay with you at the Athlete
Village, and you can ask all the questions they can handle on what
makes them go so darn fast. Your adopted pro is not required to stencil your
name on his tri-top, though of course he is welcome to do so."

What the WTC (or IMNA) can AFFORD TO DO (I love your bolding!) is have a special "VIP" club, where you pay $99 a year and get things like a T-shirt, a DVD of the championship race, discounts on purchases, emails with race updates. And...wait for it...you get a password to sign up for certain races the day before the rift-raft.

"Duh, I'm not talking about IM Hawaii in Kona and I'm talking about Ironman M-Dot races..."



Aren't you confusing WTC with IMNA then?

I bet that 31min 5k stranger trains supa hard and stomps you and allot of other floks out there! After all it is all about the bike!

t~

Do you honestly think someone who runs a 31 minute 5K should be entitled a spot to IM Florida over a someone who goes under 5 hours in a Half IM?

It really sounds to me that you should move to Australia. I think you would be very happy there.

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Behold the turtle! He makes progess only when he sticks his neck out. (James Bryant Conant)
GET OFF THE F*%KING WALL!!!!!!! (Doug Stern)
Brevity is the soul of wit. (William Shakespeare)

They have the Passport club - you get a few more lottery chances for Hawaii, a free DVD of the previous year's race, discounts on merchandise, e-mails with race updates...just no special early sign-ups.

"Through our "Adopt-A-Pro" program, you can opt to spend $25 (for
one night) or $50 (for two nights) toward accommodations for a lucky
yet cash-strapped professional triathlete. You will be paired with an ITU
Pan American Cup competitor who has agreed to stay with you at the Athlete
Village, and you can ask all the questions they can handle on what
makes them go so darn fast. Your adopted pro is not required to stencil your
name on his tri-top, though of course he is welcome to do so."


My point exactly. Reed, Kemper, Stadler, etc. walk around looking like NASCAR drivers with all or their sponsorships and we want to put restrictions on races so a MOPer can live the dream! Please.....

>>I like the discussion, however, how come whenever this topic comes up people keep bringing up the "it's a business" stuff. Yes, it is a business - I think we all "get" that!

Let's talk about solutions and not "it's a business". <<

Solutions to what? I didn't see the WTC or IMNA asking for solutions. The races sell out. What problem is there?

Like someone said, if you don't like the (1) entry requirements; (2) rules; (3) course; (4) location; (5) t-shirt; (6) whatever else there is to bitch about......take your checkbook or credit card and go elsewhere.

clm

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Bingo!

When I signed up for my first IM I had never done a half and was not in shape to do the full, but a year later I finished. About 13:30at LP, which put me far from the end. I am getting ready to do IMFL and it will be IM # 8 and hope to go close to 10 hours flat. So Why should some one be kept from competing based on what they have done? It is about what you can do, not what you have done. How is it any different than a local 5k with a cap? If you want to be part of a qualifing race sign up and race for it.

Cathy, too easy, what would some folks complain about? :o)



Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

No way it would be that cheap. They would charge more like $299/yr. Why? Because they can. Also, let's assume that they have only a limited amount of VIP slots per year. Those would fill up pretty quickly because it would get to a point where the only way to get into a race would be to pay the extra $299/yr to give you the ability to sign up the day before. Quickly, you would have races that fill up before registration opens. And by doing this, the race entry would increase to $800 instead of $500.

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http://trainingoferic.blogspot.com/

But Martin, it would be no fun if we didnt have something to disagree about. :o)

Hows the shoulder doing?



Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

One of the things that catches my eye with USAT is their AG nationals. Its a race, now, that you have to meet certain criteria to compete in. I know I have set that for a goal to see if I can meet the standards.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

"Otherwise, they would have done this years ago"

There was some talk that IMC was going to go to a model that had 50% qualifiers a few years ago - all hell broke loose online and else where. People went completeley ballistic!! Needless to say they did not go that route.

Fleck

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Why does this bother you? You've mentioned it multiple times in the past.

Thank you - we have a winner!
Ditto to what Cathy said...
~~~

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- Matt

It's first come first serve and why shouldn't it be?

True. Isn't an IM race just a consumer product? IM is in a position to impose time/experience requirements, but why would they?

Here we are again, treating IM as some "holy grail" of triathlon, but then out of the other side of our mouths we'll say that "it's just another distance, no better/worse than any other".

Once again, I have this feeling that these sentiments are started by the same group that is overly concerned that friends of the family and/or co-workers aren't as impressed with "their" IM performance as the finisher thinks they should be. These threads just seem to scream "Strangers aren't as impressed with me as they were 20 years ago?" (Am I the only one that gets this impression?)

The original IM race didn't have a time cutoff, now we have a 17h cutoff. Was the IM suppossed to be something that people could accomplish if they set their mind to it, or something that only highly-trained, talented athletes could do?

Why don't these folks take on a more difficult challenge like a double IM or an ultraman?

It is an unnecessary business move to impose a time/experience requirement for IM participation. They make money by the VOLUME of participants, not the QUALITY. Isn't that obvious?

You can't assume the same number of entrants with a time requirement as without.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Suit yourself. Don't forget your cup.

I know this dead horse has been beat over and over, but the best thing they could do to raise the quality of racers, and still fill the races, would be to lower the final cutoff to 15hrs like some of the non-US races. People might think twice before pulling the trigger...might even try a half before the full.

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________________________________________________________________________
"that which does not destroy me will only make me stronger" Frederick Nietzsche
andrew peabody
http://BREAKAWAYMULTISPORT.COM

just no special early sign-ups.

Does anyone really believe there are quite a few of these ultra-talented, high-performing AG'ers that either have ultra-s-l-o-w internet connections and/or can't be bothered to logon to sign up when it opens.

I mean these races sell out in a matter of hours, not minutes, right?

Is this a complaint about a situation that doesn't even occur? Are there high-performing AG people that can't get into a race because it sells out before they get a chance to sign up (within reason).

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Martin is the ST god of making sure his opinion of who can call themselves an IM is ONLY his opinion. So, he loves to beat me up since he says my californiaman 140.6 race I completed last year with 6.11 hours of training per week at 12:16 doesnt allow me to call myself and IM. :o)

I keep asking him what he calls Frank Day who completed the first Hawaii Ironman race, but is was not owned by WTC back then, so I ask does this mean Frank, and all those folks can not call themselves ironman's?

Martin, I love ya, but for the life of me, dont know why you enjoy beating me up on this issue since not everyone agrees with your opinion, as you have seen posted many times by others.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

"A friend of mine knows a guy who runs a 31 minute 5K and has never done a Half Ironman is planning on registering for IM FL 2007."

_____

This has to be some kind of troll-type of statement. I know that a lot of people sign up for an Ironman to prove to themselves that they can finish, but I REALLY doubt that someone that runs a 31 min 5k would sign up. The only people that run a 31 min 5k are 1)really overweight or 2)sedentary couch potatoes. I doubt that anyone in those two categories would sign up for an IM...

be to lower the final cutoff to 15hrs like some of the non-US races. People might think twice before pulling the trigger...might even try a half before the full.

1.People don't sign up a year in advance and assume "I'll lolly-gag for much of the year, try to make up for it too late, and come craling in at 16:30:34. People sign up for the race thinking they're going to have great training year and rock the race (relative). 17h or 15h would not likely matter (I'd imagine IMNA and WTC are well aware of this).

2. Do we even have an idea how many people sign up for an IM without doing a 1/2IM?

Is it 2? 20? 200? 500? Or are we just making comments on our assumptions? I say that because I see a lot more people waiting to do an IM until they have done a couple halves (and for various reasons), than I do folks that just say "what the hell" and sign up for an IM without 1/2IM experience.

If there were lots of health issues from IM races, possibly even deaths, then I would see the necessity for RD's and organizations to require 1/2IM performance before IM ... but there aren't. MOF many folks are able to successfully complete the race, and all of the DNF'ers aren't first timers. So, the 1/2IM requirement isn't necessary but could be a good way for IMNA/WTC to bleed more money from entrants ... but might lose money overall (i.e., less total participants).

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=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

I can't believe that nobody's ranted on this topic before now.





Yes... that was sarcasm. As many have said before, WTC/IMNA will not be selective until it starts to affect their bottom line. IM World Championships in Hawaii is their Boston Marathon. You have to qualify.

Bottom line, if you don't like what they do, vote with your pocketbook. Go race an indie event. More of us need to do that (myself included). After 2007, I'm going to look into indie races for a few years. Silverman is #1 on my list.

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Steve Perkins

I think WTC/INMA does great for the business model they are offering. As they have stated, their model is not for everyone. So, for the folks who dont like it, why bitch so much, just go spend your money in other places. No way should a successful business change their model from a few with egos that like to bitch, IMO.

They have my money in the bank for IMCDA. I may not go, but at least I have a choice.



Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

[reply]"A friend of mine knows a guy who runs a 31 minute 5K and has never done a Half Ironman is planning on registering for IM FL 2007."

_____

This has to be some kind of troll-type of statement. I know that a lot of people sign up for an Ironman to prove to themselves that they can finish, but I REALLY doubt that someone that runs a 31 min 5k would sign up. The only people that run a 31 min 5k are 1)really overweight or 2)sedentary couch potatoes. I doubt that anyone in those two categories would sign up for an IM...[/reply]

You would be wrong then. I've started 11 IM races and finished 6 and I've never run a 5K faster than 31 minutes. I probably could now, but in the very recent future, I couldn't.

clm

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

So unless a person is fast they don't respect the distance and should be excluded? And I get called elitist for thinking people should be able to swim w/o a wetsuit. Puh-lease.

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Awww, Katy's not all THAT evil. Only slightly evil. In a good way. - JasoninHalifax

Don't run off the slowpokes!!!

If you do that MOP'ers will have nobody to beat!! :)

 Dave, I realize he's giving you crap saying this, but c'mon.. enough. I've done 11 irons with 5 or so being independents. I can tell you that those 5 or so indies are, on average, more difficult than the IM brands: less competitors/less natural draft, suspect aid stations, tough courses, ect. Anyway.. I'm up for a good ball breaking from time to time (giving and receiving), but its a broken record. People are fully entitled to his/her opinions but to compare an indy ultra race to a pick up game of football with third graders is way off. But, so be it.. we're not splitting the atom here I guess.

And FOP's wont have folks to keep the races fees as "low" as they are. :o), or even the race at all.



Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

"Believe it man. It's true. I asked if how the guy was on the swim and bike and he's a midpack swimmer and ok on the bike, but he sucks at running and doesn't like running at all. "

So he's good to go. What "problem" are you trying to solve exactly?

I've never quite figured that out from these threads.

Now if you'd like to see more slots to closed IM's offered to people who want to qualify at other races I could get behind you. But not to restricting who is worthy of doing an IM. When I signed up for my first I had never ridden my bike more than 30 miles at one time. Still got under 12:30 though. But then someone will say nobody over 12:00 actually did an IM.

---

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

I agree, you dont see me bringing it up all the time. :o)

Now, if I do and complete IMCDA next year, I will take all his fun away. But, if I can get into the USAT AG nationals, I will pass on CDA.



Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

This has bean beaten to death before...and yet people still make comments like "the best thing they could do to raise the quality of racers, and still fill the races, would be to lower the final cutoff to 15hrs".

This lowers the average time, but it doesn't mean you get better athletes. Just gives an advantage to the younger ones.

Why have a cutoff that would most likely lead to a large percentage of the competitors who are 50+ not doing the race? How does that make it more of an accomplishment for those doing it in under 15 hours? Only 29 out of 51 men in the AG 55-59 finished in under 15 hours. A third of the 50-54 year-old women and half of the 55-59 year-old women weren't under 15 hours.

With an IM, 98% of the people are only competing with those in their AG (if not only out there for personal goals). A 50-year-old man can only compete against 50-54 men. Whether they are out there for 14 hours or 16 really shouldn't matter to anyone but themselves and race personnel.

Lowering the time limit just to structure it so only 3/4 of those who can currently do it can finish, to "make it more of a challenge", doesn't make sense. You haven't changed the challenge for those doing 14:45 or better, you've only affected a few right around 15 hours and cut out most above age 55 from participating.

I don't think WTC/IMNA is bad for the sport, and I don't think I said or implied that. I DO think that supporting more indie iron distance races is good for the sport, which is why I want to throw some bucks their way for a while. I love the pageantry of IM races. I had a great time at Moo '04, and will probably have a great time at Moo '07.

Kudos to IMNA and WTC for a terrific product. I see no reason why they would want to change anything right now. Their races sell out. They make pretty decent bank, and people want to attend. As we used to say when I lived in Texas. "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." Until there is a demonstrated NEED from a business perspective to make some of these suggested changes, I say don't change.

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Steve Perkins

Opps, I misread your post. Sorry about that.

It just gets so old at ST, that you know there will always be a few that will bitch until the sun stops shinning about a few things.

Drafting, INMA/WTC, attack anyone who has done well. It is like a cancer. Just wonder why that same energy cant be put into being thankful we have the health to even do this stuff. ETc.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Keep banging that drum. Eventually, someone might care.

Whoa -- you just blew my mind...

:)

Noah

How about this?

To enter an M-Dot event one would have to have completed an HIM sanctioned by a recognized national or international body. No cutoff time, simply finished. At least that will eliminate the folks who have no idea what they're in for.

In addition, what about a system like New York marathon where they offer a guaranteed entry to folks who meet certain standards? These people would have a finite period of time to enter. After that entry is opened up to the general public (given completion of an HIM).

This approach encourages faster competitors but still allows us civillians to enter.

One more suggestion.................

This is what...the 40th time we've batted this one around?

What I seem to read into this time and time again is that faster athletes seem to want their races and their results to 'mean' more than those for MOP's or BOP's. They want a more extreme cut off time, or a restriction in registration based upon ability or results, and a qualification that you must be this fast to ride this ride. All this for races that no one calls a championship - just a race, a fun time for all.

Why? Seriously, why?

Is it because faster folks are so defined by their ability to go fast that it's unpalatable that your finisher's medal says the same thing that a slower person's does?

No matter how it's sliced, diced, explained and spun, it all smacks of exclusion to me.

I'm excluded from Xterra World's, IMH, USAT Nationals and so on because I'm slower than others in my age group, as it should be for a championship. No one should be excluded from any race that is not a championship.

I've got to admit, I just don't get this kind of thing.

[reply]Why have a cutoff that would most likely lead to a large percentage of the competitors who are 50+ not doing the race? [/reply]

Funny - I was eyeing the race results from Hawaii just a week ago, and that was exactly my thought.

I was checking the men 70-74 and 75-79 (in moral support of Roger Daniels and Lew Hollander both of Bend OR - congrats on your #5 and #2 finishes!!!).

In the 70-74 only 5 men finished under 15 hours. In the 75-79 NOBODY finished under 15 hours.

And this is the championship race - not your run of the day Ironman.

Reducing the 17 hour cutoff would just push some age groups out of the sport entirely. And that would be a real shame.

So why then do we not then have restrictions on ALL triathlons?? Make it so that you can't race a popular Oly. unless you've gualified at a sprint in a certain time or only if you are some arbitrary % of your AG in the USAT standings??

Why should one organization impose restrictions on their registrations when they fill up quickly just so the "elitists" of the tri field can have a better chance to get into the IM event??

If someone REALLY wants a slot, get in the car, drive to the event and register on-site. All those people are basically guaranteed a slot. It's only the onliners who get screwed. Or how about this one - try doing an non M-Dot irondistance like Chesapeakeman or Vineman??????

If it is so important to get an IM slot, then you will do what you have to to get it. If it is about going the distance and doing your own personal best, who gives a flying "F" about what race they do it in and whether it has an M-Dot logo attached to it???

It seems pretty - nay I dare say excessively - selfish to want to impose restrictions on registration and turn people OFF of the sport instead of giving them a goal to strive for in their triathlon future.

Yes, you (mostly) have to qualify for IMWC and the 70.3 WC, you have to (mostly) qualify for Boston. Those events are SUPPOSED to be the best of the best. Not the average IM. There are qualifying slots available, but each event is not the end all be all of the sport. Just a milestone for many to strive for.

---

_____________________________________________
Rick, "Retired" hobbyist athlete
Trying to come back slowly from acute A-Fib

"The only people that run a 31 min 5k are 1)really overweight or 2)sedentary couch potatoes. I doubt that anyone in those two categories would sign up for an IM... "



I'm not catching the sarcasm that must be there. If you're serious, you're way, way off base. Take that sh*t over to letsrun.

I Am An Ironman, 2X and I say it with my head hi. I am not an elite athlete but got involved in doing this sport because of watching Ironman CDA. I finished my First Iron Man in 15 hrs 15 min, IM CDA in 05 and 14 hrs 30 min in 06. I will say this, I never competed in any triathlon, marathon or half anything. I grabbed this bull by the horns and went for it. I am not fast by no means but enjoy doing and supporting this sport. It also keeps me going to the gym all year and I have a goal each year, better the previous years time.

If they were to impose restrictions how would this sport get to keep growing. I for one do like all the support of a IM sponsered event and continue to get better.

You have no idea what you are talking about. I'm neither really overweight nor a sedentary couch potato, have been doing triathlons for 5 years and I have completed an Ironman and have never broken 31 min for a 5K.

My primary concern about limiting IM access is that the people suggesting these changes have somehow determined that they can run the WTC better. Based on what? Are they successful business people who have managed a multi million dollar enterprise and are now prepared to manage the WTC? Why does anyone care so much about how the WTC runs their events and much less about other organizations that run similar distance events ? Is it the pretty logo?



Why does someone who cares so much about their IM race care about the guy/gal who finished at the 17hr cutoff? Most people I see finishing at 11hrs don't even bother to stick around to see the other people finish. Most simply cruise back to their hotel and eat, sleep and leave as soon as possible the next day. It seems odd that we now find it necessary to discuss the people who do not affect our race.



More WTC races is the answer until the demand drops. If the WTC feels they cannot support the race volume, then they should raise the price until they reach the point where the demand begins to slip. Maybe the WTC can raise the cost of an IM to $4000 instead of the $400+ ? If you want to race, PAY UP! No poor career performers allowed. If you don’t have a cable modem then work some overtime to pay for one or buy a Community Fund slot. Don’t cry about how you couldn’t get in. Heck, a Community fund slot is only $1000 and $500+ is tax deductible. The net penalty is only another $300 after tax. Most IM athletes drop more money on gear, food, travel and training then most people do on food for an entire year.



There is enough wealth in and around IM to support much higher costs to the entrants. If the WTC was 100% about making money and not at all interested in growing the popularity of triathlon they would crank up the prices without hesitation. For now, there are new events added, entrance fees remain about the same and the races fill up. Great business model.



I suggest that for those people who are struggling with the lack of exclusivity in their IM world that they shell out the money to create their own race. Call it ”The 140.6 Race-O-Rama” with a 12 hr cutoff. Make a nice logo, buy insurance, staff and advertise it to death.



Other suggestions to your WTC spin-off race:

1. Swim cutoff is 57 minutes…let’s weed out the weak right away
2. Bike cutoff is 5:30 or 6:27 total time….T1 has gotta be short
3. Minimum height for males of 6'…short people need not apply
4. Minimum height for females of 5'5…same
5. Minimum Adjusted Gross Income (Married or Single) of $160K
6. Rule #4 can be waived if 50 hours of community/charity event support is completed
7. Must have master's degree in something other than Kinesiology
8. No wetsuits..ever

---

Ban Wetsuits !! Wetsuitsareforwimps.org/net/gov

Ahem.. that guy would be me (figuratively).

I ran a 34 min 5k in my 1st attempt. Ran a couple of sprints and one Oly before signing up for IMLP in 2005.

Ran my 1st 10k in Nov 2004
Ran my 1st 1/2 Mary in Feb 2005
Ran my 1st marathon in April 2005 (4:29)
Ran my 1st 1/2 IM - Eagleman 2005 (5:55)
Ran my 1st IM at Lake Placid (13:11:22)

I'm not in the 'competitive' category, so I'm not going to deny someone a Kona slot. However, without the looming deadline of an IM race to face up to, I would not be in the shape I am in today.

Personally I think that the sport should remain open to all comers, and continue to expand the number of races.

---

gbassett.com

"So, he loves to beat me up since he says my californiaman 140.6 race I completed last year with 6.11 hours of training per week at 12:16 doesnt allow me to call myself and IM. :o) "

You aren't that special, he does it with everyone. :)

Though I must question anyone who actually goes around calling themselves an ironman, just seems odd to me. But then, not quite as strange as frequently quoting your training hours to the 1/100 of an hour and listing your finish time. But hey, whatever blows your skirt up.

---

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

Sorry, I dont go around calling myself an ironman to ANYONE. Nobody cares about the crazy stuff so few of us do. And personally, I really have no desire to do another, and may not. I much more enjoy the Oly distance where recovery time is much faster.

Training hours are for those folks who said it would be impossible for me to complete the distance with such "small" amount of training. :o)

Yep, I am proud of my finish time!!! Never going to get my into Hawaii, but, I am proud of it.



Dave

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Actually, it was John Collins issuing the challenge of the first "Ironman" competition that defined who could call themselves an Ironman.

Collins said, "Whoever finishes first, we'll call him the Iron Man." Of the fifteen men to start off the in early morning on February 18th, 1978.

Note he says whoever finishes first! So unless you have won an Ironman, you are not an Ironman.

---

Support Crew
This information contained herein has been assembled for your assistance and convenience. It is believed to be reliable, however, its accuracy cannot be guaranteed. All opinions shown are subject to change without notice.

>>Reducing the 17 hour cutoff would just push some age groups out of the sport entirely. And that would be a real shame.<<

Oh, but the 30-34 and 35-39 men would be happy. Kick all the women out too! More slots!!

---

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

You got something against Australia? Australia is a beautiful place and I wouldn't mind living there. Great place to swim, surf, and train.


Now you are simply jumping to conclusions. You need to keep up on all the threads. Specifically this one, which if you wade about half way through it, you'll find some discussions on the Australian system and how it differs from U.S. practice. I think you will see that you would fit in quite comfortably. No judgement on either system or country, implied or otherwise.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...;;page=unread#unread

---

Behold the turtle! He makes progess only when he sticks his neck out. (James Bryant Conant)
GET OFF THE F*%KING WALL!!!!!!! (Doug Stern)
Brevity is the soul of wit. (William Shakespeare)

Sue, interesting to know the facts. So, I guess we have LOTS of folks who are "lying". :o)



Dave

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Strange how the athletes themselves blur the lines between the two, while the RDs put up clear names of their individual races.

Athletes are funny that way, all lying and stuff.

Pardon the language, but Martin you have got to be shittin me. Are you serious? The term Ironman or Iron Man was around before someone threw a trademark on it.

It's the accepted and recognized term for any athlete that completes a 140/6mile race in under 17 hours.

So, the difference between someone that finishes an IM event versus someone that finishes a 140.6 non-MDot race is what? 200 bucks? That's the big hang-up with the descriptive term, one person was willing to pay 200 more dollars than the other?

That is just plain dumb.

---

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Why should one organization impose restrictions on their registrations when they fill up quickly just so the "elitists" of the tri field can have a better chance to get into the IM event??

If you can't tell these threads aren't even close to being about "registration" ... as if a bunch of 11 and 12 hour finishers are being denied access because they have slow internet speeds (I must have missed those threads) or were too busy to log on.

These threads are about the lesser degree of impressed that non-triathlon people have of IM finishers, now that more people are doing it. I have no idea why people are so concerned with what non-tri people think about tri accomplishments.

People are less impressed that you did an IM when the soccer mom down the street did one too. The (real) problem in this regard is the general public doesn't care enough about IM races to know if a 12 hour finish is better than a 16 hour finish. They simply don't care because triathlon isn't that big of a deal to most people.

I really DO NOT enjoy commenting in these threads, but as a man, I am just hoping that people will start saying what they mean and just come out and say "I can't stand it that those 16 and 17 hour finishing slobs get to say they did the same thing as I did, when I finished 5 hours earlier". It would be refreshing just to see someone stand up and say what they mean instead of hiding it behind "registration issues" or "quality assurance".

---

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

How businesses use terms, and how they get used everyday in non-business settings are two different things. People call all tissues "kleenex", all soda "cokes", and well, all 140.6 races "ironmans".

Not because they want to fool people into thinking they spent $200 more on a race, but because everyone knows what "ironman" means in terms of triathlon distance.

I could check the actual dates, but Iron Man was first trademarked as a muscle building magazine by the wonderful Peary and Mabel Rader (in the 50s), it was later (and still is) a bodybuilding contest and rader's muscle mag has become Ironman. It's also trademarked by marvel Universe for a comic book character. It's also a term that was used to describe football players that played both offense and defense during the same game ("an ironman"). IMNA wasn't the FIRST to use the word, and they weren't even the FIRST to trademark it. Sometimes folks act as if IMNA invented the word and concept of "ironman". There's a reason why John Collins said the winner will be called "iron man" ... because that phrase already had a commonly accepted description of rugged endurance (from teh football usage).

The meaning of "ironman" in terms of superhuman and/or rugged endurance precede the actual trademark and well, triathlon.

People can trademark terms as names in the business world, but that doesn't affect how people use them in everyday life.

If there was an equally descriptive word for "one who completes an 140.6 race", peopple would use. I don't think folks are willingly trying to fool everyone into thinking they did an actual IMNA race rather than a non-MDOT.

---

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Martin, you need to realize that there is a difference between using a word in a trademark sense (i.e., in commerce) and in a generic sense, although one can have a legal impact on the other, albeit only a legal impact on the trademark owner.

It's not lying to say you "did an Ironman" when you finished full Vineman. It may, strictly speaking, be inaccurate, but the fact is, many people use the term Ironman in a generic sense to refer to any iron distance race. I know people that still use the terms "Xerox" to refer to any photocopier. They aren't lying when they say they "xeroxed" something, but really used a Canon copier. I, myself, use the term "Kleenex" to refer to any facial tissue. I'm not lying when say I used a Kleenex, when I really used a Puff's brand tissue.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why this matters to you at all.

---

-------------------------------------
Steve Perkins

"The only people that run a 31 min 5k are 1)really overweight or 2)sedentary couch potatoes. I doubt that anyone in those two categories would sign up for an IM... "



I'm not catching the sarcasm that must be there. If you're serious, you're way, way off base. Take that sh*t over to letsrun.

__________

AmyCO

No need to be profane.

You can't catch what's not there. 10 min/mile for 3 miles is something that anyone can do, and if you can't run that pace, then you have no business doing an IM. At that pace, you're better off joining Team in Training or your local running club for a few years before you enter an IM.

Unless you're geriatric (forgot to add that to the qualifier), then you have to seriously think about your training habits. If you suck at a 5k, you're going to suck at an IM. And sorry to be so un-pc, but if you can't run faster than 31 min, you suck. It makes no sense to say, "since I suck at one of the most basic, short, popular running distances, I'm going to go long" where you REALLY are going to suck.

It's like playing mini-golf, then deciding you're going to enter the US Open.

You're wasting your keystrokes on this guy. I can't figure it out either. I guess that we all pick our battles -- some just pick them much more wisely than others...

---

http://achukumba.blogspot.com/

It seems nearly everyone I know says, "I did Vineman" last weekend.

And most people in your area probably understand what "Vineman" represents, right? Like I said, if there was a word that equally described non-MDOT race, people would use it. I'm surprised most non-MDoT races don't use the phrase "Johnny Jenkins, you are an IronAthlete". People could decipher what that represents and means.

I don't think people are intentionally lying to convey a message that they did a 140.6 IMNA race rather than a 140.6 non-IMNA race. I just don't think people are that petty.

I think most people will say in conversation, "I've done an ironman". "Which one?" "Redman" ("Duke" or "Grand Columbian"). I don't think people hide or lie about which 140.6 race they've done. People would be lying if they said they did a specific IM race, when they did not, in fact, do that race.

---

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Martin, I think it's time you get an MDot tatoo! ;-)

Mark

Today my coworker sneezed. I said, "Here is a Kleenex."

He blew his nose, looked at it, and said, "This is a Puffs Facial Tissue, not a Kleenex!! You are such a liar...I bet you cheat in those races you do as well!"

I'll give you his email, sounds like you would be good friends.

All my brother-in-law's family have been talking about how their niece did an ironman a few weeks ago. I asked which one. "Somewhere in Maryland." (Chesapeakeman)

Go to your local 5K event, go to your local spint triathlon, go to most any local or major marathon, go to any 1/2 IM, full IM be it MDOT or Joe's Blows Iron Distance and at EVERY SINGLE EVENT and I mean EVERY SINGLE event and 95% of EVERY event is filled with your average everyday guy who just loves to get out there and push himself, and do so in the midst of a few Professionals. We actualy get to compete with the PROS!!! But the point is, this sport thrives on the average everyday Joe and is built around US, NOT the Pros. Without us, the entire sport gets tossed in the pile with Soccer and Beach Volleyball. So it appears quite simple why the sport doesn't try to raise the level of athlete, it just does not make sense.

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-----------------------------------------------------------------
I must be right because everyone else is "On My Left"

I can't help you there. :-) Why does any of it matter? Because I have a broken shoulder and choose to discuss the things I find interesting? I find human behavior interesting, and have always been sort of puzzled, not by the 95 people why say, "I did Californiaman last weekend", but by the 5 people who say, "I did the Ironman in Davis last weekend." That seems worth discussing, I think. Why? Can't really say.

But why do you insist these 5 are lying? Your posts on this subject connote some need to believe that these people are intentionally lying in order to boost their self esteem by claming to have done an Ironman race, when in fact, they "only" did an indie 140.6 race. That suggests to me that you have some kind of feeling that completing a non-Ironman branded 140.6 race is somehow an inferior accomplishment, and that these 5 people know this and have some deep-seated need to cast their accomplishment as the equal to finishing an Ironman-branded race. I think you're reading too much into that.

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-------------------------------------
Steve Perkins

I do say that. And I just received a cease-and-desist order from the Kimberly-Clark Corporation for my unauthorized use of the term. Guess, like that NYC underground race, I should have not posted on ST about it...

Yes, people really say that. To ensure that my houseguests and I never lie, not even inadvertently, I always buy Kleenex brand facial tissue. I get upset if the office manager purchases generic yellow stickies, because then I cannot use "Post-It Notes" in any phrase. We use a Xerox copiers / printer in our office, so I'm OK there. It really bugged me when we had the Konica.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

"That has definitely not been my observation. In fact, I have found the opposite to be true. It seems rare indeed for someone to call Vineman, "Ironman". I just never hear that, ever."

----------

Maybe that's because the people you are hearing are knowledgeable about the sport of triathlon and live in that region and know that both apply traits apply to you. Therefore, they are communicating very specifically with you. Rather than communicating that last week they did a race consisting of a 2.4 mile swim, a 112 bike ride and a 26.2 mile run, they are describing to you a specific event, on a specific course at a specific date. If they were communicating with the guy in the office next door who just moved to California and plays alot of golf, they might describe the activity in far more generic terms.

On the other hand, maybe those 5% just think the "Ironman" TM holder is evil because they have not instituted a 15 hour cutoff and are doing everything within their power to dilute the TM.

I am probley coming in way beyond what I should be on this topic and if this was said, please forgive me. What makes you think that this person who has only run a 5k cannot get into race shape by next year? Don't you think your a bit elitest? No doubt that it is the wild wild west when it comes to m-dot events but I also don't think that people should be punished for not doing a half before an IM either. there are going to be some people who don't complete the event but there are aslo some pro's who don't finish. who are we to say who is and who is not in shape?

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"I have no fear of losing my life - if I have to save a koala or a crocodile or a kangaroo or a snake, mate, I will save it. "
Steve Irwin

Sorry to offend your delicate sensibilities; you have offended mine. Profanity aside, it irritates me this continual push to limit sports to those who are "good", however you define that. You are assuming that the 10 min. miler does not work as hard as you do and your assumption is dead wrong. Plus, there is a big difference between a 5K and an Ironman. One is more about stand-alone speed and the other about endurance. I agree that a 10 min. miler won't win an Ironman, but a 10 min. miler can post a more than respectable time. Triathlon is more than just run speed.

[reply]

And sorry to be so un-pc, but if you can't run faster than 31 min, you suck. [/reply]

Well FUCK all! I guess I suck. Thanks for the clarification. I'll just look at my IM Hawaii medal tonight (which I did qualify for), just to confirm.

clm

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

The accomplishments have NOTHING to do with it. 140.6 is hard no matter how you slice it. I just find it sort of strange that people feel the need to transplant the name of one race to another, rather than call their race by name.

It's ok for me to find it strange, it's ok for (you) to find it not strange. It's ok to discuss.

I think.

I would agree with you, if you hadn't used such vitriolic language in your original posts, accusing people of "lying" about finishing an Ironman. Why the hate?

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Steve Perkins

Even when I go to a non-DQ ice-cream store, I still order a 'blizzard'.

I don't have the desire to memorize which ice cream store calls them a flurry or a mixy-freeze or storm or an avalanche or whatever ... everyone knows what a "blizzard" is no matter what it's actually called.

When I tell people I'm eating a blizzard, I'm not trying to deceive them into thinking I went to DQ rather than mom & pops ice-cream store down the street. Furhtermore, no matter where I went when I say I am eating a "reese's cup blizzard" they know exactly what I'm getting at.

I don't see anyone ridiculing IMNA for using a football term, or by saying that IMNA is intentionally lying by trying to say that triathletes that finish their race are as tough as the "old school" football players that use to play "both ways" (offense and defense). maybe you should bring that issue up. =)

So if we just established that one group is knowledgeable, are you saying there is another group who is "not" knowledgeable?

Isn't that obvoius? How many people out of 100 could accurately label the distances of an IM race?

---

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

I confess. I am a habitual liar, now that I think about it. I have gone to the non-Starbucks coffee shop and ordered a "tall" coffee.

I am an evil, evil person.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

So I really don't know what a "Blizzard" is....

....but I want to.

I'll buy.

Later ... Trick or Treat time.

---

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Well FUCK all! I guess I suck. Thanks for the clarification. I'll just look at my IM Hawaii medal tonight (which I did qualify for), just to confirm.

I think that jtntexas has no clue that you are both Irish and a redhead. Someone ought to set him straight before he gets hurt.



;-)

---

Behold the turtle! He makes progess only when he sticks his neck out. (James Bryant Conant)
GET OFF THE F*%KING WALL!!!!!!! (Doug Stern)
Brevity is the soul of wit. (William Shakespeare)

"Sorry to offend your delicate sensibilities; you have offended mine. Profanity aside, it irritates me this continual push to limit sports to those who are "good", however you define that. You are assuming that the 10 min. miler does not work as hard as you do and your assumption is dead wrong. Plus, there is a big difference between a 5K and an Ironman. One is more about stand-alone speed and the other about endurance. I agree that a 10 min. miler won't win an Ironman, but a 10 min. miler can post a more than respectable time. Triathlon is more than just run speed. "

_____-

No worries, you haven't offended me in the slightest. I GUARANTEE that a person that can't run a 31 min 5k does not work as hard as I do unless there is 1)age (like late 60's/early 70's) 2) weight morbidity or 3) complete inactivity. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but if you can't run a 5k in 31 minutes, I submit that you don't run enough or as frequently as I do. Period. You might have your excuses, but you don't. 31 minutes is not "stand alone speed". The average human can walk briskly at 4 mph, or a 15 minute mile. A 10 minute mile is subgait, meaning you are "jogging" not running. Certainly not anything near "speed".

Well FUCK all! I guess I suck. Thanks for the clarification. I'll just look at my IM Hawaii medal tonight (which I did qualify for), just to confirm.

clm

______

If you need to look at your medal for validation, all power to you. But it proves the seminal point, you need validation. At the same time, make no mistake about it: if someone has toed the line at a dozen IM's, and is currently training, and still can't break 31 min for a 5k, you need all the validation that you can get. So give that medal a kiss from me :)

So if we just established that one group is knowledgeable, are you saying there is another group who is "not" knowledgeable?
----------------

yes, not knowledgeable regarding the sport of triathlon, populated by, among others, the golfer who recently moved to California in my example.

Well I guess if you haven't heard it it must not be true. Many people say 'Kleenex' when referring to a tissue. Although I personally don't.

I'm torn between agreeing with you that he is a douchebag and being amazed that you managed to work into another post that you've done Hawaii.

I don't think you do. It has cow puss in it! ;)

---

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Canadian resident again 10/31/2009

Have I stumbled onto some kind of contest for Son of Swimfan Pr*ck of the Day?

You ROCK, ironclm!

kate

I call B.S. on that last post.... Sorry, but you simply don't know what you are talking about.

10min/mile for 3 miles is tough for anyone who has not run any sort of distance before. That was me 2 years ago. I could easily complete a century bike ride in 6 hours, and could swim broken 1000's at 1:40 pace, all well within the realm of IM. I had simply never ran any distance.

Flash forward to today, and I can easily complete the 5k in under 30 min, do the century in around 5 hrs, and regularly swim the 2.4 mile in under 1 hr.

Just because you can't do something at the time you sign up for the IM race, doesn't mean that you won't be able to perform come race day. There are thousands of examples of this each year in the IM races, and they include some of the most inspiring stories.

Also, the analogy on mini-golf vs US open doesn't work. you have to meet a specific handicap, and qualify in one of the opening events. Very similar to how one gets to Kona.

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gbassett.com

You are so right. take a look at this:

17th Annual Great Floridian Triathlon
Individual Entry (Early Entry Savings Special through Nov. 30) $350.00



Are you kidding me? the EARLY entry fee for that race is almost what an IM costs. After Nov. 30th it will be $400.

When you compare that race , to what ANY IRONMAN provides, regarding services , meals, ETC. Ironman is killing their competition on Service. Pick your country, and pick your Ironman, they are selling out races on quality and service, because 2nd place in the Race business is a HUGE gap. Not to mention the have one other thing, called a Brand.

JB.

Yes, volume can give you more options.



Dave

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Ironman is killing their competition on Service.

Not all races. Some race reports feature more swag, better finisher's shirts, just as good aid stations, etc ... all for less money.

What IM races seem to feature best, according from various race reports is ... more participants, more fans, the logo, the announcer and/or finishing videos. You can't duplicate much of that with 300-500 participants.

Seriously, the race reports of the non-MDOT races speak highly of the race and how the race was run.

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=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

It's like comparing the Olive Garden to the local Italian restaurant. You go to any Olive Garden anywhere in the world, and you know exactly what you are going to get. You go to a local Italian restaurant, it might surpass the Olive Garden by a ton. It might be a lot worse. The only way you know is on the reputation of that particular restaurant, recommendations from friends, and so forth.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

[reply]You are so right. take a look at this:

17th Annual Great Floridian Triathlon
Individual Entry (Early Entry Savings Special through Nov. 30) $350.00



Are you kidding me? the EARLY entry fee for that race is almost what an IM costs. After Nov. 30th it will be $400.

When you compare that race , to what ANY IRONMAN provides, regarding services , meals, ETC. Ironman is killing their competition on Service. Pick your country, and pick your Ironman, they are selling out races on quality and service, because 2nd place in the Race business is a HUGE gap. Not to mention the have one other thing, called a Brand.

JB.[/reply]

Not sure you are totally correct on that. I would say their number 1 thing they have going for them is brand. The MDot is huge and people want to be associated with this.
talk to the folks who have done an independant IM race and an MDot race and I would bet you will find the the indies are doing some things as good if not better than MDot.
I will let you know how Silverman compares to Lake Placid after next week. :)
Mark

LOL. When I decided to do Ironman, I had no idea guys with your problem even existed. I have plenty of personal reasons for completing an Ironman, so p*ssing you off is just a bonus reason I will add to (the bottom) of my list. I will think of you on the second bike loop at Madison :-*


You know, I've had some vague suspicions that maybe that was the case, but you've explained in such a clear and direct manner that now I really get it. Are you, by chance, a management consultant?

I agree with being selective. I think that only people with fast internet access and are fast to get online when registration is open should be allowed in to the elite Ironman series races.... or any other race.

Martin, if there is no more INMA, now what happens? No more ironman's?



Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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