be to lower the final cutoff to 15hrs like some of the non-US races. People might think twice before pulling the trigger...might even try a half before the full.

1.People don't sign up a year in advance and assume "I'll lolly-gag for much of the year, try to make up for it too late, and come craling in at 16:30:34. People sign up for the race thinking they're going to have great training year and rock the race (relative). 17h or 15h would not likely matter (I'd imagine IMNA and WTC are well aware of this).

2. Do we even have an idea how many people sign up for an IM without doing a 1/2IM?

Is it 2? 20? 200? 500? Or are we just making comments on our assumptions? I say that because I see a lot more people waiting to do an IM until they have done a couple halves (and for various reasons), than I do folks that just say "what the hell" and sign up for an IM without 1/2IM experience.

If there were lots of health issues from IM races, possibly even deaths, then I would see the necessity for RD's and organizations to require 1/2IM performance before IM ... but there aren't. MOF many folks are able to successfully complete the race, and all of the DNF'ers aren't first timers. So, the 1/2IM requirement isn't necessary but could be a good way for IMNA/WTC to bleed more money from entrants ... but might lose money overall (i.e., less total participants).

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

I can't believe that nobody's ranted on this topic before now.





Yes... that was sarcasm. As many have said before, WTC/IMNA will not be selective until it starts to affect their bottom line. IM World Championships in Hawaii is their Boston Marathon. You have to qualify.

Bottom line, if you don't like what they do, vote with your pocketbook. Go race an indie event. More of us need to do that (myself included). After 2007, I'm going to look into indie races for a few years. Silverman is #1 on my list.

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Steve Perkins

I think WTC/INMA does great for the business model they are offering. As they have stated, their model is not for everyone. So, for the folks who dont like it, why bitch so much, just go spend your money in other places. No way should a successful business change their model from a few with egos that like to bitch, IMO.

They have my money in the bank for IMCDA. I may not go, but at least I have a choice.



Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

[reply]"A friend of mine knows a guy who runs a 31 minute 5K and has never done a Half Ironman is planning on registering for IM FL 2007."

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This has to be some kind of troll-type of statement. I know that a lot of people sign up for an Ironman to prove to themselves that they can finish, but I REALLY doubt that someone that runs a 31 min 5k would sign up. The only people that run a 31 min 5k are 1)really overweight or 2)sedentary couch potatoes. I doubt that anyone in those two categories would sign up for an IM...[/reply]

You would be wrong then. I've started 11 IM races and finished 6 and I've never run a 5K faster than 31 minutes. I probably could now, but in the very recent future, I couldn't.

clm

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

So unless a person is fast they don't respect the distance and should be excluded? And I get called elitist for thinking people should be able to swim w/o a wetsuit. Puh-lease.

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Awww, Katy's not all THAT evil. Only slightly evil. In a good way. - JasoninHalifax

Don't run off the slowpokes!!!

If you do that MOP'ers will have nobody to beat!! :)

 Dave, I realize he's giving you crap saying this, but c'mon.. enough. I've done 11 irons with 5 or so being independents. I can tell you that those 5 or so indies are, on average, more difficult than the IM brands: less competitors/less natural draft, suspect aid stations, tough courses, ect. Anyway.. I'm up for a good ball breaking from time to time (giving and receiving), but its a broken record. People are fully entitled to his/her opinions but to compare an indy ultra race to a pick up game of football with third graders is way off. But, so be it.. we're not splitting the atom here I guess.

And FOP's wont have folks to keep the races fees as "low" as they are. :o), or even the race at all.



Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

"Believe it man. It's true. I asked if how the guy was on the swim and bike and he's a midpack swimmer and ok on the bike, but he sucks at running and doesn't like running at all. "

So he's good to go. What "problem" are you trying to solve exactly?

I've never quite figured that out from these threads.

Now if you'd like to see more slots to closed IM's offered to people who want to qualify at other races I could get behind you. But not to restricting who is worthy of doing an IM. When I signed up for my first I had never ridden my bike more than 30 miles at one time. Still got under 12:30 though. But then someone will say nobody over 12:00 actually did an IM.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

I agree, you dont see me bringing it up all the time. :o)

Now, if I do and complete IMCDA next year, I will take all his fun away. But, if I can get into the USAT AG nationals, I will pass on CDA.



Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

This has bean beaten to death before...and yet people still make comments like "the best thing they could do to raise the quality of racers, and still fill the races, would be to lower the final cutoff to 15hrs".

This lowers the average time, but it doesn't mean you get better athletes. Just gives an advantage to the younger ones.

Why have a cutoff that would most likely lead to a large percentage of the competitors who are 50+ not doing the race? How does that make it more of an accomplishment for those doing it in under 15 hours? Only 29 out of 51 men in the AG 55-59 finished in under 15 hours. A third of the 50-54 year-old women and half of the 55-59 year-old women weren't under 15 hours.

With an IM, 98% of the people are only competing with those in their AG (if not only out there for personal goals). A 50-year-old man can only compete against 50-54 men. Whether they are out there for 14 hours or 16 really shouldn't matter to anyone but themselves and race personnel.

Lowering the time limit just to structure it so only 3/4 of those who can currently do it can finish, to "make it more of a challenge", doesn't make sense. You haven't changed the challenge for those doing 14:45 or better, you've only affected a few right around 15 hours and cut out most above age 55 from participating.

I don't think WTC/IMNA is bad for the sport, and I don't think I said or implied that. I DO think that supporting more indie iron distance races is good for the sport, which is why I want to throw some bucks their way for a while. I love the pageantry of IM races. I had a great time at Moo '04, and will probably have a great time at Moo '07.

Kudos to IMNA and WTC for a terrific product. I see no reason why they would want to change anything right now. Their races sell out. They make pretty decent bank, and people want to attend. As we used to say when I lived in Texas. "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." Until there is a demonstrated NEED from a business perspective to make some of these suggested changes, I say don't change.

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Steve Perkins

Opps, I misread your post. Sorry about that.

It just gets so old at ST, that you know there will always be a few that will bitch until the sun stops shinning about a few things.

Drafting, INMA/WTC, attack anyone who has done well. It is like a cancer. Just wonder why that same energy cant be put into being thankful we have the health to even do this stuff. ETc.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Keep banging that drum. Eventually, someone might care.

Whoa -- you just blew my mind...

:)

Noah

How about this?

To enter an M-Dot event one would have to have completed an HIM sanctioned by a recognized national or international body. No cutoff time, simply finished. At least that will eliminate the folks who have no idea what they're in for.

In addition, what about a system like New York marathon where they offer a guaranteed entry to folks who meet certain standards? These people would have a finite period of time to enter. After that entry is opened up to the general public (given completion of an HIM).

This approach encourages faster competitors but still allows us civillians to enter.

One more suggestion.................

This is what...the 40th time we've batted this one around?

What I seem to read into this time and time again is that faster athletes seem to want their races and their results to 'mean' more than those for MOP's or BOP's. They want a more extreme cut off time, or a restriction in registration based upon ability or results, and a qualification that you must be this fast to ride this ride. All this for races that no one calls a championship - just a race, a fun time for all.

Why? Seriously, why?

Is it because faster folks are so defined by their ability to go fast that it's unpalatable that your finisher's medal says the same thing that a slower person's does?

No matter how it's sliced, diced, explained and spun, it all smacks of exclusion to me.

I'm excluded from Xterra World's, IMH, USAT Nationals and so on because I'm slower than others in my age group, as it should be for a championship. No one should be excluded from any race that is not a championship.

I've got to admit, I just don't get this kind of thing.

[reply]Why have a cutoff that would most likely lead to a large percentage of the competitors who are 50+ not doing the race? [/reply]

Funny - I was eyeing the race results from Hawaii just a week ago, and that was exactly my thought.

I was checking the men 70-74 and 75-79 (in moral support of Roger Daniels and Lew Hollander both of Bend OR - congrats on your #5 and #2 finishes!!!).

In the 70-74 only 5 men finished under 15 hours. In the 75-79 NOBODY finished under 15 hours.

And this is the championship race - not your run of the day Ironman.

Reducing the 17 hour cutoff would just push some age groups out of the sport entirely. And that would be a real shame.

So why then do we not then have restrictions on ALL triathlons?? Make it so that you can't race a popular Oly. unless you've gualified at a sprint in a certain time or only if you are some arbitrary % of your AG in the USAT standings??

Why should one organization impose restrictions on their registrations when they fill up quickly just so the "elitists" of the tri field can have a better chance to get into the IM event??

If someone REALLY wants a slot, get in the car, drive to the event and register on-site. All those people are basically guaranteed a slot. It's only the onliners who get screwed. Or how about this one - try doing an non M-Dot irondistance like Chesapeakeman or Vineman??????

If it is so important to get an IM slot, then you will do what you have to to get it. If it is about going the distance and doing your own personal best, who gives a flying "F" about what race they do it in and whether it has an M-Dot logo attached to it???

It seems pretty - nay I dare say excessively - selfish to want to impose restrictions on registration and turn people OFF of the sport instead of giving them a goal to strive for in their triathlon future.

Yes, you (mostly) have to qualify for IMWC and the 70.3 WC, you have to (mostly) qualify for Boston. Those events are SUPPOSED to be the best of the best. Not the average IM. There are qualifying slots available, but each event is not the end all be all of the sport. Just a milestone for many to strive for.

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Rick, "Retired" hobbyist athlete
Trying to come back slowly from acute A-Fib

"The only people that run a 31 min 5k are 1)really overweight or 2)sedentary couch potatoes. I doubt that anyone in those two categories would sign up for an IM... "



I'm not catching the sarcasm that must be there. If you're serious, you're way, way off base. Take that sh*t over to letsrun.

I Am An Ironman, 2X and I say it with my head hi. I am not an elite athlete but got involved in doing this sport because of watching Ironman CDA. I finished my First Iron Man in 15 hrs 15 min, IM CDA in 05 and 14 hrs 30 min in 06. I will say this, I never competed in any triathlon, marathon or half anything. I grabbed this bull by the horns and went for it. I am not fast by no means but enjoy doing and supporting this sport. It also keeps me going to the gym all year and I have a goal each year, better the previous years time.

If they were to impose restrictions how would this sport get to keep growing. I for one do like all the support of a IM sponsered event and continue to get better.

You have no idea what you are talking about. I'm neither really overweight nor a sedentary couch potato, have been doing triathlons for 5 years and I have completed an Ironman and have never broken 31 min for a 5K.

My primary concern about limiting IM access is that the people suggesting these changes have somehow determined that they can run the WTC better. Based on what? Are they successful business people who have managed a multi million dollar enterprise and are now prepared to manage the WTC? Why does anyone care so much about how the WTC runs their events and much less about other organizations that run similar distance events ? Is it the pretty logo?



Why does someone who cares so much about their IM race care about the guy/gal who finished at the 17hr cutoff? Most people I see finishing at 11hrs don't even bother to stick around to see the other people finish. Most simply cruise back to their hotel and eat, sleep and leave as soon as possible the next day. It seems odd that we now find it necessary to discuss the people who do not affect our race.



More WTC races is the answer until the demand drops. If the WTC feels they cannot support the race volume, then they should raise the price until they reach the point where the demand begins to slip. Maybe the WTC can raise the cost of an IM to $4000 instead of the $400+ ? If you want to race, PAY UP! No poor career performers allowed. If you don’t have a cable modem then work some overtime to pay for one or buy a Community Fund slot. Don’t cry about how you couldn’t get in. Heck, a Community fund slot is only $1000 and $500+ is tax deductible. The net penalty is only another $300 after tax. Most IM athletes drop more money on gear, food, travel and training then most people do on food for an entire year.



There is enough wealth in and around IM to support much higher costs to the entrants. If the WTC was 100% about making money and not at all interested in growing the popularity of triathlon they would crank up the prices without hesitation. For now, there are new events added, entrance fees remain about the same and the races fill up. Great business model.



I suggest that for those people who are struggling with the lack of exclusivity in their IM world that they shell out the money to create their own race. Call it ”The 140.6 Race-O-Rama” with a 12 hr cutoff. Make a nice logo, buy insurance, staff and advertise it to death.



Other suggestions to your WTC spin-off race:

1. Swim cutoff is 57 minutes…let’s weed out the weak right away
2. Bike cutoff is 5:30 or 6:27 total time….T1 has gotta be short
3. Minimum height for males of 6'…short people need not apply
4. Minimum height for females of 5'5…same
5. Minimum Adjusted Gross Income (Married or Single) of $160K
6. Rule #4 can be waived if 50 hours of community/charity event support is completed
7. Must have master's degree in something other than Kinesiology
8. No wetsuits..ever

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Ban Wetsuits !! Wetsuitsareforwimps.org/net/gov