Whoa....hotels in Merrit ?....nearly all the people camped on site at the music festival (campground #3 was a legend)....unused Hwy #1 ?....nope, its still well used, lots of trucks, I wouldn't ride a bike along it.....but I will say the Nicola valley rd, from Merrit to Hwy 1 (Spences bridge) is a great and very hard 65km ride on a road surface that is in places terrible, and mostly just plain rough......yep Hwy 1 is nowhere near Merrit.

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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>X
If you run long enough....something is bound to happen

I think the confrontational approach may backfire on them. He is one vote out of 9. Does the proposed route leave the city? If so does the adjacent rural municipality approve? What if the police are unable to provide enough off duty members to do traffic control because Challenge got their ducks in a row first?

As I said before I would hate to see the WTC steamroll in and effectively kill other events. The last thing the sport needs is community fatigue. The Apple pays a key role in the developmental parts of the sport ie : Jr Nationals, Youth Draft legal (14-15), past host of AG and elite nationals.

I'm not saying the WTC shouldn't pick Kelowna but that they should consider carefully picking their dates and consult the folks in the local Tri community so that they don't destroy the volunteer pool.

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Definitely agree with you there, Steve.

Venue was HUGE in my decision for IMMT, and also a reason why even though I spent years in the Poconos in and out of my time at Lehigh, you could not pay me to do that race. Similarly with Soprananoman.

I may be in the minority, but I think clean logistics and a convenient venue really enhance a race (as long as the course as well is decent)

There are many views of a race.....
In the case on an IM event the experience the athlete has, the logistics the organiser needs to overcome, the demands it places on the local citizenship, the army of volunteers that need to be assembled & their needs looked after etc etc.
To repeat this year in & out takes a community to really embrace the event.
I doubt one can move an event like IMC in a matter of weeks. It has taken a natural evolution to get to the stage that is now IMC.
WTC may be predatory and might fiercely try to protect its market share but it will not be easy nor cheap. Larger communities have huge public pressure placed on powers that be when citizens are inconvenienced especially if it's year in year out. Smaller communities have a much harder time coming up with the commitment to the tax money WTC will surely demand of them.
Penticton has the infrastructure in place and I just can't policing, 1st Aid, highways etc switching allegiances or being able supply two events close in time & distance, all of their current deals are with the city not WTC.
Of course there is a certain percentage of "elitists" and for them Ironman is the only event they'd consider. Others may have the Kona dream but in reality only a small percentage are truly in an IM to gain a Kona spot.
Most folks that enter are ones wanting to take the challenge, to see if they have the discipline to set such a lofty goal and achieve it. Repeat participants start to enjoy the event, the setting and the experience that it brings.
For those that think Penticton has made a grave error I wonder if your motives aren't a little selfish. I think Penticton has earned the right to look out for its own best interest and provide an even better experience for those that want to race a great venue and are not hung up on branding.

Yes, I'll be the first to admit that I do have *some* very selfish needs to keep IMC the same. However, if I truly try to look at this issue objectively, I think Penticton made a grave error. The fact is that IMC was THE most successful IM in the world. Why? Because it has the longest history and clearly the locals love it because it has the highest turn out of volunteers. I'm sorry but what the hell was broken? It was an event that greatly appealed to competitors, it was an event that greatly appealed to first timers or novices, and it was obviously an event that greatly appealed to the locals. Wow, I think that's called win-win-win.

I can actually turn it around and say if I listen to those on this forum who claim they're looking forward to having Challenge in Penticton, I get this very distinct sense that they're saying it only because of their hatred toward the WTC and not because it's in the best interest of Penticton. I can read it in their words and so far none of them are convincing in the least, imho. So, actually, I would argue that those who want Challenge in Penticton are possibly equally selfish.

It will be such a shame if that event dies in a couple of years just because they thought the grass was greener elsewhere.

I think somewhere in this saga a WTC rep said they plan another IMC, but really, why is everyone so certain there has to be another IMC? WTC just wants races to fill the calendar, regionally dispersed, and make $X margin, they don't need western Canada.

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Head down, thumbs up, give'r
@barrettdj

Complaints I hear....
Harder to get the volunteers....
Dinner and party for them a mere shadow of what it used to be
Cost to the city constantly going up all the while WTCs take grows
Stature of the event eroded - Kona spots reduced prize money cut in half
I was a 20yo kid back in 83, I was down at Gyro Park watching these crazy folks doing something I thought was impossible.
Eventually made me enter, gave me the courage to go into self-employment.
I loved the event never missed one. Loved the athletes, they came from everywhere. I organized a homestay program for overseas athletes & young pros.
I sponsored athletes, Peter Reid, Lori Bowden, Teemu Vesala, Stefan Holzner, Steffen Hartig, Jill Savage, Garrett McFayden, Bryan Rhodes, Brendan Downey all ran IMC with my logo, most before anybody ever heard of them.
Spent well over 25K on sponsoring them, always felt these athletes never made enough $$, they could always get gear but hard cash was impossible to come by so I gave them cash. Believe me my shop wasn't that successful but loved the sport and the athletes trying to make a living as triathletes.
Organized bus rides around the course for newbies giving them info they needed.
Being fluent in German I acted as an ambassador to the hordes of German speaking entrants when IMC was the last chance to get a spot for Kona .
Contracted local artists to make Tri themed t's (pissed Graham off a few times with these =8) I was very successful with them.
Organized nutrition seminars, held meet the pros events like "Breakfast with Lori &Peter" with Q & A sessions.
IMC shut down the homestay program, threatened lawsuits over my T’s. Pressured athletes not to participate in activities I organized. Airbrushed any of my logo’s in finishing pics ( look closely you should recognize a few winners!)
When I heard of the loss of IMC I was devastated and wondered WTF the Challenge Family was. What a lame name was my initial thought.
I still know jack about them really but what I have read seems positive.
Ironman is great but I don't mind giving a fresh idea some slack and I can see why events are unfolding as they are.
Kids never like it when their parents split but most of the time it’s for the best.
One door closes but another opens, change brings opportunity.
I live here, I love long distance Tri, I love the folks that come here and I love making sure they have the best race ever. There are literally thousands here that have the very same attitude that is why this race will not fizzle out, that is why many athletes will always want to come here. Long distance tri’s are a part of our communal fabric and we are proud of it.

Great information! I really appreciate you taking the time to share. Sounds like you've been a significant contributor to the success of IMC in the past. You have a great perspective and sound like a top-notch dude.

I suppose I'm just frustrated. I wasn't ready for change...

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Good on ya Ray!.Great to see one of the good old guys come out of the woodwork and chip in his thoughts..You were always the cool rebel that kept the Evil Empire on it's toes..

I wish I had kept my favourite shirt 'cause we could do with it now "No Cry Babies!"..;-)

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Thanks to both of you!
Have a meeting with the Mayor on Tuesday (know him personally) to find out more about what is going on.
Also want to see if there is any interest in having me involved in some capacity.
I'd like to create a buzz, one that raises the bar and once again makes folks want to check out this event.
That of course would involve what goes on around the event pre & post-race.

thank you for the post. Its important to us to get the flavor direct from source!

Having visited your town 10 times in 11 years for race and off cycle for wine season(s), I can attest to the passion and commitment Penticton has for triathlon ALL YEAR ROUND. It is not a one week circus to Penticton, is a commitment to the sport and the community. WTC don't get that. They get cookie cutter, repeatable business model from town to town....like a travelling circus. And that killed them here. Their model works for them. It doesn't work for communities like Penticton. Now that Challenge has scooped the race, I won't be surprised as other contracts come for renewal that those towns will investigate other options and divorce from WTC. First one that comes to mind is LP but too bad they just signed a 5 year renewal.

See you in 2013!!!

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@rhyspencer

Can you get the Hog's Breath back while you're at it?

Yes Hog's Breath and Ray's Sports Den :). I did the race for the first time in 2000 and it was amazing. Did it 9 more times since then and although it still is amazing there has definitely been a change from year to year and not for the better!

You were always the cool rebel that kept the Evil Empire on it's toes..
_______

Nick,
Many of us live in the US, so we clearly don't know Pentictons politics .... we have just come to race and visit in the past.

Help me understand who the "evil empire" is. The reason I ask is that Graham Fraser by my understanding has had a license with WTC for years to IMC ... and NAS for several years until that all left as we know about. He was obviously running the whole thing and even had his contract with the city of Penticton that was his ... and obviously not WTC's. The evil empire in Penticton in the past always seemed to be Graham as he by my understanding was IMC and it was all his operation. I'm not aware that WTC has ever operated the race in Penticton directly. Everybody seemed to be complaining about Grahams decisions in the past .... but now it seems everybody in Penticton likes Graham. I can understand that Penticton didn't like the terms of a new contract with WTC ... but it would have been their first and only direct WTC contract if it had been signed. Where does all the evil empire hate come from in the past?????

Dave

No kidding, eh! Loved the Hog.....
Another corporate entity taking a small business giving it the once over..... and boom ruined

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The Evil Empire did in fact have a hand in a lot of what has happened in IMC over the last few years.yes Graham was the man in charge but more and more he was forced to fall in line with WTC's demands to have all the races operate the same way.They did control a few more things than people realise and those things affected the outcome of Grahams events.I have spoken directly to Graham about this as recently as the night before the Challenge announcement and again afterwards.I have have know Graham for around 16 years and although we have disagreed on a lot he knows that I always supported his races and have stated here on ST that I would always support IMC until the day that WTC pushed Graham out and took control.That day was last week.

My main bitching about WTC actually has nothing to do with the Nth American races but is mainly directed to what they have done to the Asian races which has limited the ability of Asian athletes to compete for spots in what is supposed to be a "World Championship".I could go on but I know there is little interest in that side of things here on ST.

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^^^This.
That's what I would like explained. Who was making these decisions that have harmed the city, Graham or WTC?
As one example, Ironman events I have participated in, in the past several years, as part of the opening banquet, WTC reps go up on stage and present a huge check to one or more local community organizations as part of the Ironman Foundation. They also then list the various community organizations that are benefiting from donations by WTC to that community for that year. I have seen this at IMSt. George, IMCDA as examples. This year was my first IMC. No donations by WTC to the community were mentioned at the opening banquet. One of the major complaints I have heard about all of this, is that WTC has taken and not given back to the community. So, my question is, who made the decision to not donate from the race proceeds back to the community at least for this year? Did they do this presentation as part of the banquet last year? If not, who made that decision since Graham ran the show last year?

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Coming soon: How to Thrive as Masters Triathlete (masterfultriathlete.com)

Was there any suggestion as to a race date? June? July? August? Sept?

Dave you have a valid point.....
Graham the person has always been a good guy.
The fact Graham turned the event into a successful endeavour is not an issue, letting IMC lose its prestige is.
WTC did have an indirect say in most decisions because WTC is the one granting licence to use the M-dot logo & name.
WTC also signs major international sponsorship deals. WTC will also have guidelines that need to be adhered to.
Graham operated within that framework. Ironman is big business and sentimental issues are long left behind when making big money deals.
With all the new races within Grahams fold Kona spots had to be split amongst the races. I don't know why prize money was dropped though.
What will change with WTC taking ownership is the community involvement.
Graham invested in the community; he owns the local Jr. Hockey team and invested in many social issues/endeavours. This is why folks warmed up to Mr. Fraser.
Graham genuinely likes Penticton IMO.
So I think most in the know separate Graham the part time citizen of Penticton & Mr. Fraser the IMC owner.
I also don't get the sense most see the WTC as the evil empire rather as a greedy corporation more concerned with the bottom line than history.
It is their right and it is something that has most of us disappointed not much more though.
I think we saw lots of knee jerk reactions

I first saw IMC in the 90's then did not see it again till 2008. There was a large change in those years and I think that is one factor is what led to Challenge Penticton. In the 90's it was a lot bigger(in the sense of publicity),louder,younger,more competitive race. I think that was more in line with the original IM concept. I think over the years it has mellowed. It is lot quieter,older,more family oriented. I personally like the change. Challenge Penticton will cater to the new"scene"(at least that is what they say). The thing about having another IMC near Penticton is"what will the concept of the race be?". If it will be a more"hard core"race like IMC was in the 90's they will run into the same issues that happened in Penticton. People are getting older,having families and events like Challenge Penticton may be the future.

None of this would have happened, if the WTC had not allowed this race to drop into the second Tier.

There were numerous rumours that IMC was moving, long before IMC week, and the Challenge takeover....no smoke without fire

WTC purchased the race from Graham earlier this year, but didn't think to tell anyone, even the City of Penticton that they were contractually obligated to do.

IMC at Penticton was a fast becoming a backwater in the IM world, an afterthought, a race that even most second tier pro's didn't enter (cudo's to those that did right to the end), and first level Pro's didn't want to do anymore. With WTC starting another IM on the same day in North America, it was obvious to anyone that IMC was not going to be saved, its History counted for nothing, it was just a cash cow, a red headed stepchild to the WTC chosen races.

A lot of people cared about this race, the town cared for the race, a lot of athletes remember all the good times.....I say Lets make this Challenge race everything IMC was, what we remembered, not what it had become, and bring back those people that are part of the fantastic rich history..........I want to sit and listen to a top pro in the expo, I want to have a beer, I want Local business to be involved, I want to buy bike stuff from the bike barn at the expo, I'll still visit the store but hopefully people understand what I mean.....why couldn't we buy OKanagan fruit at the expo ?.....and what was with the pathetic food stalls, with nothing healthy to buy and eat......I want the old IMC back, it will just be called the Challenge.

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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>X
If you run long enough....something is bound to happen

Ray, welcome to ST :) and thanks for the support you gave me in the past. I wore your logo to 2nd place at IMC in 2003. Thanks again. Your optimism about the new race is welcome and refreshing however I have not been privy to much positive talk about the change. Most non athletes feel it is too risky when you look at the financial impact of the race. A local business owner said "long distance tri is a one brand market...kinda like UFC and mixed martial arts" If you look at the numbers a 160K investment to guarantee a 10 million return is a dream scenario. To gamble with this return, to me is a very irresponsible move on the city's behalf. WTC is far from perfect, just like the rest of the world, but they would fill our town the last weekend in august.

I have done many WTC races as a pro and agegrouper. I have never had any issues personally. I can empathize with the complaints that I hear and read but do not feel they justify such a drastic move. I don't think many of the changes have anything to do with the event organizers. In the last 10 years the number of races a person can choose from has exploded. People are stretched to the limit with their time and finances. In the last 5 years I have seen the majority of racers show up 2 days before an IM race (Hawaii is 4 or 5). How does this new race proposal of a week long festival like in the past intend to overcome this uber busy lifestyle that all type A triathlete live? Will relay racers come here a week early or stay in a hotel for a week to train here?How do you overcome the brand power of IM races? I don't see anyone making a run at the UFC market or the IM market....love it or hate it. Penticton is a small remote town that is difficult and expensive to get to for those not driving. Germany is 82 million in a small area with many major airports. I don't think Roth is a valid comparison. Perhaps Challenge Wanaka...1300 racers. Penticton has been very lucky to host such a successful event for so many years. Like Chris said it's a win win win event for this small town. We should be happy to get the same deal as Coeur d'Alene and fill our town for many years to come.

I also think no Kona slots will have a bigger impact than expected with racers from the USA. The ones who come here to train and race. 45% of the racers this year. They are the ones who spend the most money here. Some poster here on ST feel our race has been degraded. Less Kona spots (but the same as Coeur d'Alene). Less prize money for pros (I do not agree with this) but the same as CDA. The average agegrouper does not really care. The proximity of our race to kona is what killed the pro race here. In the past pros would race here due to very limited options. Now there are so many races why would any pro do an IM 7 weeks before Kona?

On a personal level my plan for next year was to do IMC and then hopefully Kona. My first year in the 45-49 agegroup. Now what? I was crushed when I found out my girls would never hear me announced as the previous winner 5 or 10 years from now. At an age when they would understand that their fat beer drinking dad use to be fast. I am very aware my personal reasons mean nothing to anyone but the financial impact of the race means a lot to many. With WTC the return of 3000 money spending triathletes every august was guaranteed.

Like I have said before I really hope for the sake of the town and the race we love that the new race is a huge success. Only time will tell.

Please show my post to the mayor. Ask him what the contingency plan is if the new race starts to cost this town millions. I know some will benefit from the change to a more historical race but I am thinking of the town in general. Very risky indeed.

Regards, Tom

x2 ... penny wise & pound foolish decision by the politicians. I wonder if they could have come to a sweeter agreement with WTC if they knew Challenge were knocking at the door?

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Swim - ( x ) All good ( ) In the shop
Bike - ( x ) All good ( ) In the shop
Run - ( ) All good ( x ) In the shop

Geesh I feel foolish having forgotten to list you with the folks I used to sponsor, sorry Tom...
With all the new IM races to choose from do you think we'd still attract 3K racers in the future?
I've heard from many that the town no longer benefits as much from the race as athletes aren't staying as long.
Maybe trying the week-long festival will entice more to come and make a vacation out of the race, not just in, race & out.
Mind you the city could have put that kind of effort into IMC as well; then again it is WTC that wants a cut on everything and need to approve anything official.
Don't know how this will play out, doubt the race will ever have as many racing as now, also don't know if that's a bad thing.
If we can offer more for the non-racing entourage I feel we could continue on as a great date on the calendar.
The long distance tri population has obviously grown by leaps and bounds and as the movement matures don't you think it becomes less important what the race is called versus what you will receive in return?
This is of course the million dollar question and is most likely a bit of a threat the WTC doesn't really want.
What will be interesting is to see how much effort the Challenge family will pour into this race. If they truly want a piece of the NA pie they will use Penticton as a launching pad & this race will benefit from that effort.
We will not be able to stick the genie back in the bottle, we will have to do our best to get on board and make this a positive move.
I hear you Tom & I hope things work in a positive direction.
I'll know more after my meeting Tuesday