Yes he grew up surfing, I think he's from Southern Cali area.

If I can find the swim progression video, I'll post it. It really is wild how far he went. Basically all "hard work" club as he attributes it (lots and lots of double day swims). But again his demands of swim ability for itu and LS's with non-draft are much different.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

For what it’s worth - D1 programs vary quite a bit. A solid distance swimmer on a top 25 D1 program would do exceptionally well in any triathlon swim. They should be faster than any other swimmer “on paper”. They would want to get some open water experience.

I looked up Simon Shi. He did swim for VA Tech. He swam breaststroke and IM. His freestyle speed unfortunately would be better suited towards an average/above average D3 swim program, but he should be faster than most IM and 70.3 swimmers. Perhaps he will get better at open water and you'll see improvements.

well we just do not hold the same hypothetical opinion belief regarding usain bolt but lets move on with our lives.

here are a few people that have improved a lot

jo king - goes from coming out last in itu races back in the 90s to doing a 20m oly swim (swam a lot, with lots of paddles, 6k paddles sets). Jo King: Triathlon’s Humble World ChampionX2 | Racing Tales John Jacoby Style (wordpress.com). 50km per week. sutton worked with her a lot on her swim.

matt mcelroy

rappster - could do some wicked endurance sets

jonnyo - a 4,48 400m swimmer lcm. that is pretty decent imo. 430s was breakaway territory back when he raced. his story is documented on this forum.

steve and bella baylis improved a lot with brett sutton - down from mid 50s to high 40s in IM for steve and bella, from 1 hour plus to mid 50s. documented on brett sutton's website.

matt hanson had some good improvement too. documented on this forum.

jason pedersen. mentioned in that podcast i heard.

others who have not been fully aos but have really improved a lot - vasco vilaca. scientifc triathlon podcast. i mentioned this in a post a few months back.

This one?

Yes that is one of them! Again I think he's one of the best examples of what you can do....but damn the work he did to put himself in that position was lots and lots of swims to catch up to the guys who can swim front pack wtih ease.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

And for every single on you mentioned, there are at least 100+ who failed at the exact same thing.

Even you must know that elite tri coaches specifically look for top swim talent first, because it's usually impossible to close the gap to the front.

I'm not saying at all AOS improvement to pro-elite tri is impossible. It absolutely is possible. But statistically it's going to be very unlikely, like not much better than the odds of a random athlete non-swimmer being able to achieve it with similar training. And if you've spent like 5+ years busting tail, with coaching, etc. and it's still not happening, odds are high that you are not one of the lucky ones.

I mentioned it earlier, but remember that in cycling, LS was good right from the get-go. No 10,000 hours or starting at age 5 required. (Again, there's a lot more overlap between bike-run, so that is a major factor, but doesn't itself explain why he'd go to nearly bike #1 as quickly as he did when he was on top. )

Brother man, I know you go on and on about how you need talent to swim well. But 10k/wk is barely enough to be swimming fit, much less get faster.

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Strava

Even you must know that elite tri coaches specifically look for top swim talent first, because it's usually impossible to close the gap to the front.

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Front Pack runner who has *some* swim background, that's the winning ticket in elite triathlon....obviously the better the swim ability is, but if you are talking what look for 1st- it's runners who have swim background.


Front pack swimmer allows you to be "in the game" more and likely improves motivation to train vs the 3rd chase pack athletes who is always playing catch up. That's a MAJOR factor in all of this. The motivation to show up every single day and just get 0.1% better through consistency. That's likely the biggest factor in all of this.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Its awesome - good for him and what an improvement. He trained a lot with Eric L who seems like he would be pretty nice about whipping your but every day in the pool. A lot of mental strength to get this improvement too.

Yes, why do we even bother with swimming. Lets just give away our swim stuff and take up knitting

I hear you vbut disagree as a triathlete. Still, I averaged 20k/wk while still bike-running a lot (not cutting back on it) most of last year and for large blocks before that. Still chump change compared to 'real' swimmers, but pretty good for an age-group triathlete.

Saddest part - I got faster, but only a small amount. Like 30sec in an Oly race, and about 2sec/100 for 400-1500. I also did my own regular underwater video to make sure I wasn't doing anything awful. Sure, there are errors, but they're hard to fix and challenging for everyone, not low-hanging fruit.

After seeing my results for the past 2 years, I decided that on my on-race season, I'll settle around 10-13k/wk of swimming, for about 14-16hrs/wk of total training time with bike-run. That's all I can handle with family and life contraints and my middling results - it's not like i'm racing for a championship of any sort!

But I'm also real here - after swimming 20k/wk, it became abundantly clear to me that I'd never catch the guys who are finishing 4+ minutes in front of me in the Oly swim. Never. Even if I swam 30-40k/wk like a pure swimmer. (To be fair, I'm pretty sure almost all those guys were ex-comp swimmers, some of the were D1 guys you could find on the internet.)

In contrast, I don't do any heroic training on the bike, and I've almost always had a top 5 overall bike split in local olys. If you have swim talent, 10k is more than enough to swim plenty fast for an amateur triathlete, and 20k is what most PROFESSIONAL long-course triathletes due while doing a balanced block. (Short course folks can swim a lot more than that though.)

I'm not the expert on whom elite tri coaches choose - I do think you're right, but at the same time, I suspect the catch in what you say is *some* swim background.

I'll bet that *some* swim background from these swim coaches means that they can see what you do on your lack of experience and serious swim training, but still see that you have a high ceiling - which likely means you're already really good compared to similarly inexperienced peers at swimming.

For sure, they're not looking for 15 5k runners who are swimming 2:00/100 after a few months of swimming, or even likely 1:40/100 which isn't too shabby for a near-non-swimmer.

Essentially the protocol that has been very successful for the US is to basically give collegiate runners 3 weeks to "train up" for a specific swim test (regardless of said athlete's swim background; obviously that runner who swam trained from age 8-13 is going to be in much better shape than the runner who's never swim trained but is so good at running, a federation wants you to give triathlon a chance). How they do on said swim test basically determines the level of interest they have in said athlete. ETA: The swim test is basically 3 sets of X x 100's where the send off drops 5s every round. IE 8 x 100 on 1:30 / 8 x 100 on 1:25 / 8 x 100 on 1:20 or 1:40 / 1:35 / 1:30....They can use that data to pretty much predict your ability and forecast the amount of "investment" you'll need to do.

Again I think the biggest point in many of these discussions- the motivation/ability to keep showing up every single day and "grind". That may be "wanting it more" it may be availability to train up (many developing pro's simply can't afford to keep living the pro lifestyle when there is zero money coming into the equation; and thus quit to go get a "real job"), whatever it is; it's a big factor imo.

Early in LS's career the swim demands on him were not as critical as they are now. So he never had to go "all in" on the swim like a guy like McElroy did even though LS clearly looked into improving it from early on in his career. But that "line in the sand" wasn't really ever there in his early part of his career imo; that it's becoming more critical now.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I know that triathletes avoid the pool, but you're not going to get them to come to the pool by berating them as a group. Again, at least Lionel shows up at swim meets. Very few triathletes do. So give him credit for doing that and exposing himself to the swim snobs.

So how do you expect triathletes to show up at the pool. I can't answer that for you. I am a triathlete, and I am closing in at 900km for the year in the pool. It's still barely 3000m per day (which is really not much), but even that is really hard, with limited pool times, commute times, work, family etc. It is a lot easier fitting in bike and run training. It can literally be done out the front door at any time (or hit the trainer). A lot of this time management related for most age groupers. If you're a pro, there is no excuse for not doing sufficient swim volume.

My gut feeling is that triathletes on the balance don't want to learn a skill. Biking and running you just do more and you get faster. Swimming is more like practicing golf, or tennis, or batting. It is not just brute force. So how do you appeal to the desire to grow a skill? The problem is you can't improve a skill off 2 x 1500m per week. It just does not sink in.

So how do you expect triathletes to show up at the pool. I can't answer that for you.

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I can, that's the easy part. Demands of competition. Isn't that the whole reason LS has had this swim re-discovoery?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Yeah the gains with swimming are so small and it's just not practical to swim 20km+ as a triathlete, you need to ride and run. I found last season when I was 100% swimming that my times started really improving when I was hitting 30km+ a week, biggest week was 40. Small gains under 25km and 10km would be just about maintaining current swim fitness.

I will say though that you read about people saying bike fitness helps run fitness and/or vice versa. I've never found that at all. I have found that swim fitness helps both bike and run. But I guess everyone is different. So I wouldn't necessarily have an issue with swimming lots and running lots, but not biking much which is what I've done in the last. In fact my best seasons have been self-coached with high s/r volume low bike volume. Subsequent coaches have looked at Training Peaks data in disbelief, shaking their heads lol but it worked. My worst seasons have been with very balanced programs.

Richard Varga was an international swimmer and the likes of Gomez and Brownlee kept up with him. And there's been a few Australian Olympic swimmers who have entered triathlons and not been the fastest out the water. So I don't there is much of a gap between elite swimmers and elite triathletes, especially when they are so adept at drafting.

.
I have had this "discussion" many times over the decades arguing that swim fitness helps the overall far more than anything I have ever done. My overall triathlon times were at their best when I was putting in the swim work and most importantly my overall enthusiasm for training in general was very high. I have a saying over the years regarding my triathlon training and that is "If I am swimming I am training".

It obviously helps that I really enjoy swimming but for me,swim training sets the tone and the rest follows.

I do agree with you on the swim fitness = helping bike + run. In fact, in retrospect, even though I didn't make the breakthroughs I'd hoped for on my swim times, I amped up swimming enough that it certainly helped my bike-run in the process.

I had one race block where I suffered a pretty bad foot strain that completely took me out of running for 4 weeks, and I only had 3 measly comeback weeks before race day, so I knew it wasn't going to be a great run. So I swam as much as possible, hitting 20k/wk for nearly that entirely block, including OWS and plenty of hard interval swimming. Even though my run was subpar, my race result was nearly the same, swam a little better than prior years, biked a little faster, and ran surprisingly decently albeit not at my typical paces.

As I continue to age up, I'm planning on increasing my pool time even more to get that non-impact endurance and fitness load, when I have to start really cutting back on the run. As much as i've sucked at swimming, I'm really happy I took it as seriously as I have and improved as much as I have, because I anticipate it driving the other two as long as possible down the road.

Andy Potts swam at Michigan at Qualified for Olympic Trials. Ben Kanute was very fast in HS, sub 4:30 500 yd free I believe. I don't think he swam at AZ.....was focused on triathlon from a very young age.

barring no break down in body and if it didnt ruin the fun and make it a chore and you had time etc, it just makes me think how good swimming would feel if could regularly do like 60km a week

Ben Kanute was a 4:40 500yds free swimmer. His best ranked swim event was the 1500 meters at 16:29 and then his 1650 yds at 16:17. His swimming speed is plenty fast to see why he’s done so well in any Tri swim.

Anne Haug didn't learn to swim until she was 20. She made it both in ITU (11th in the Olympics and 2nd in the ITU World Championship, complete with a Grand Final win - all in 2012) and obviously in long course.

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"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden

To repeat what SnappingT has said, those times might seem fast. But that’s what it took to win my D3 conference champs meet in those events. IIRC, those times aren’t even A-cut for D3 Nationals.

Fast to us, not elite for swimmers.

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Strava

My first post here after a long time lurking with no account, so forgive any nonconformance with informal forum norms. Replying to several things in this thread, firstly, the notion that there are MOP teen and college swimmers. There are, because I was one. I swam competitive from age 10 through 21 through USS and D1 college programs. Grand scheme, I was not very good, but depending on the level of meet I was swimming at I could range from other kids parents asking me if I was going to the Olympics to finishing several lengths back from everyone in my heat. I stuck with it because I was competitive enough, but my college was D1 for our basketball program not our swim program, so I was a MOP swimmer in a MOP program. At best. It was what it was.

Turning to Lionel’s pool times, there is a huge difference between 1500m SCM pool swim and a 1900m OWS in a 70.3. 1500m in a pool is 60 lengths, 58 turns, one start and one finish. When I’m struggling in a workout in the pool I start to focus on my turns, and I can literally see in my Form Goggles that I’ll start clocking at least 1 second faster per length, even faster if I focus not just in the tumble but also streamline and explosiveness off the wall. Depending on Lionel’s form in these technical aspects, that have zero to do with swimming in a triathlon, he could be losing minutes off his time.

Apples to apples, Lionel beat me by 7 minutes in the swim in Kona 2022, which is a fairly good amount of time. However, I swim no more than 2x per week and average between 7-9k yards, usually far closer to the 7k. Lionel swims at least double maybe triple that amount, plus far more aerobic conditioning and frankly, a much more powerful aerobic engine than myself. Not a great ROI on time in the pool IMO. There has to be something in his form - catch, body position, breathing - that needs improvement. And for some people, biomechanically, they may just never get there. I’ll root for Lionel for the win each and every time he races, but he needs to make some serious changes to his form if he wants to be second pack, and it’s not more volume.

Nah, he'd have to start as a Cat 5 so he'd just TT off the front. Maybe they'd allow him to start in 1/2/3 races because of his background, but historically that hasn't worked well. Legs to keep you in the pack, skills to keep you on the ground.

I think it truly depends on each athlete’s circumstances as to what the ROI actually means. IE LS improvements aren’t this massive impossible gap to fix, yet that difference is hugely impactful and the requirements are likely huge on his time to get that improvement. So is it almost to the point that nothing else matters if this isn’t fixed? I would say in world championships level racing probably. He is still so strong that he can still show up at 90% of the other races and beast mode it to podiums. Which I’m guessing he realizes and is prob thankful and annoyed by that.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Something like this came up during one on LS's races this year. Do the front pack swimmers have any 'reserve capacity' in their swim, or their early bike for that matter?

Let's say there's an uber-biker in the race like Lionel, but it's known that Lionel got his 70.3 swim down by 60 seconds. All the front swimmers know this, and it may behoove them to spend a little bit more energy on the swim to maintain a semblance of a gap going into the bike. If Lionel is only 30 sec back out of T1 it's all but over for them.

Maybe they're already doing this and have no capacity left to dip into. But my intuition is that they're doing just enough to keep perceived threats behind them, and if those threats start catching up they'll probably start going a little bit faster in the swim to keep them behind. If Lionel gets 60 sec faster the front of the pack may get 30 seconds faster not out of increased fitness but out of reaction to the threat. Just my perception of what may be happening.

I don’t necessarily think it matters what the front group is or isn’t doing with regards to LS. I mean no duh it matters in that the gap has to be overcome and if suddenly only front pack won every single podium then that would be the new line in sand, but I don’t know if it’s that just yet. However I think he has to basically get to a real chase pack ability and then go from there. So whether the front group puts the jets on or not is almost inconsequential to where LS needs to get too.

Whether the front group improves the gap or not, the chase pack is pretty much on full chase mode coming out of water. Which is why it’s important to be on said wheels and obviously even more important if the front group gap only increases. I also don't think it's the gap that is the issue but number of people within said gap. At some point the front group will only go so fast, but it's the people who can fill the gaps or make each group that is important. Now more than ever we are seeing an increase in the swim ability of many more athletes that suddenly the "uber" biker isn't even a thing anymore.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Just watching the video posted earlier in this thread and knowing Lionel's hour record cycling ability, it seems clear to me, that he's just killing himself before T1 and even though his bike is strong it is not hour record strong, because he is just dragging his hips and legs and depleting all kinds of glycogen in his legs by having to kick so hard. Even if his gap is what it is, he could get to T1 being less gassed with better overall body (hip position) and then he could actually bike to his real bike abilities which are in line with many pro cyclists in the 1 hrs on the track and have a chance of closing up quickly.

Look at Sebi. He got to exactly what you are saying. Just close enough to use his bike and not so gassed that he can use it consistently (like EVERY RACE)

When training for triathlon Lionel is not at pro cyclist power levels.

If he trained exclusively for the bike, he could close the gap, but there is a gap.

How does he fix this though? Body position is so fundamental and so difficult to change. Not trying to be a negative nancy, just actually curious because having a high and flat body position is such a huge benefit and there's some very fast experienced swimmers on this thread.

I don't know that he can. Physically that is...

I haven't watched him swim in quite a while, but the last time I did it appeared that he didn't have the shoulder mobility to get his arm out front enough. That is the most important thing to get legs and hips up, being long out front.

I developed that mobility pretty young, I don't think I could make meaningful changes now, not without hurting myself anyway. I think most competitive swimmers are similar, my unsupported hypoothesis is that swimming at a young age (I think) takes that natural flexibility we have when we are really young and preserves it, in a way. Developing that mobility later in life is hard.

for example, I haven't been into the water for a few years now (life took over and no time to train, although I did restart Zwift last week, so there's some hope). but I can easily lock my elbows behind my head in a hyperstreamline position. I swam with a few guys at masters who didn't start swimming until they were in their 20's, none of them could. (in fairness, some ex swimmers couldn't either, due to various injuries).

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I have two kids. One is a swimmer. He just turned 13 but to the extent that he can be considered very good: he was first in the country in 6 events, top 10 in US history in 3 and top 20 in 2 more events. 2:01 in the 200m free at age 12.

When both kids were young I put them on their back and had them get in streamline position. I would move them back and forth and then push them down the pool. With him it was effortless. I could let go and he would keep gliding. Daughters was a very decent swimmer but everything he did he was a hundred times better.

I think you are a little too negative :) but I think you are, on balance, right. So much is innate. Heck, Lionel can do things out of thepool that none of dream of. What, does he choose not to work hard only in the pool?!?

Assuming this is not a rhetorical question, the not really talented swimmers wanted to improve, to be fast swimmers. They enjoyed being in the water and pushing themselves every day. They wanted to swim in college, maybe D1 but potentially also a good D2 or D3 team. No way the not-so-talented but hard working guys will become pro swimmers though, as virtually all pro swimmers are very talented.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Not for LS specifically, but I feel most people dragging hips and legs are looking up toward the wall (of a pool) instead of down at black line. Think about how you walk. Head in line with spine looking forward. When horizontal in a pool in that natural posture you would be looking down at a black line. If you look up and ahead at the wall at the other end, that would be the equivalent of looking straight up if standing on dry land. If you do that right now you’ll notice your hips push a bit forward…think about how that is magnified in water when your feet aren’t planted on anything helping to keep you more in line.

I'm not berating anyone. Context is king. On the one hand, you have athletes with goals of closing the gap to the front of the race or making the front pack and expecting to do it on "10k a week." When the athletes who are in the front pack did not get there on anywhere near "10k a week." As a swim coach for triathletes, a big part of the job is to get triathletes to understand the actual demands of their stated goals. That requires context of what elite level swimmers did to become elite level swimmers. It's the reason there are "national motivational time standards" to provide context. The best pro triathletes don't have to perform anywhere near elite level swim standards. But they still have to put in the work. If you are a pro who wants to be competitive, but aren't a natural in the water, you're going to have put in more work.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

That 7-yr progress is amazing!!! Clearly he really, really, REALLY wanted to be top tier ITU competitor. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

(Hey you're back!)

I kind of agree with you - I just see the guy as too muscle bound and not flexible enough to make the gains he wants in the pool.

Mobility is key - ability to be strong but supple, etc. You fight the pool, the pool will fight you right back.

Whether you're an AOS or not, water feel is innate and at some level cannot be taught. I think it can be overcome to some extent, but at the end of the day, if you can't get into position and can't feel you're out of position, there's a limit.

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I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html

Brooks - Thanks for telling us about USAT's current protocol for selecting athletes to develop in their program. For top swimmers, would they give them 3 weeks to train up for say a 5K on the track test???

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

To simply swim as fast as you can. It's the relentless pursuit of your best possible race for its own sake and not any outside reward. That's what keeps an athlete going and gives them the ability to transcend any physical limiters they might have. Any glory, reward, payment those don't keep you going in the very hard moments.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

VERY well said. We think alike. I believe this is one of the best swimming threads I've read in a long time. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Tim, I admire the heck out of you. As one of the best swimming coaches in the country and definitely one of the very best OWS coaches, your willingness to submit yourself to the critique of the "unwashed masses" is remarkable.

I doubt there is anyone in the country that more pros have gone to in search of improved swimming, but yet the folks on Slowtwitch always know better.

I am not sure how you stay patient.

Thank you. I appreciate that.

The reason I come on here is for the athlete who genuinely wants to learn. Those athletes are on here and I'm more than happy to give them as much time as they need to get a better understanding of the pathway forward.

The criticism doesn't bother me. It's worthwhile. When it's valid, I take it in and think if there is a better way to say or argue the point I'm trying to make. The interactions help me too. It also give me a better idea of the ideas on swimming that are influencing the community.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Yes and no. Collegiate swimmers will have a different pathway than runners will. It truly is a waste of time if your a 14 min 5k but the best 100 time you have in the pool is 1:48. That timeline and demands are just likely too much. Now you can go prove the coaches wrong but for all intent purposes if you can’t swim decent enough you’re too much of a project. A coach like myself would be ideal to work with them to get them competent and then if they truly made it go into a “world class” training squad.

Swimmers though will have a little bit different pathway because at itu a swimmer is already going to be at the front of the race for 2/3rd of the event. So their time table will be extended out longer.

That’s what we are looking for world class runners who swam from ages 9-14 and then only ran, Of course at this point in the game, for itu you basically need to be a triathlete in junior pipeline. This single sport to itu success is all but out for men and is greatly phased out for women.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

good to be back.

One of my earliest coaches said to us "don't fight the water. It's bigger than you, and doesn't get tired"

I probably won't post all that much, but I'm bored / procrastinating at work. I didn't read the whole thread, just kinda skimmed it, but my pet peeve has raised its head again. So...

Can I go on my rant about how irrelevant discussions of talent are to AG triathetes now?

Lionel has zero swim talent. He's not built for it, he didn't develop it. His abilities, as they are, are purely down to bullheadedness and a willingness to work.

He is faster in the water than most AG triathletes. He sucks compared to his pro cohort, but he's well above average swim ability for a triathlete. Talent matters at the elite level. absolutely, because at that level, there simply isn't a very big room for everyone. Talent matters not one bit if you're a regular AGer trying to improve. It isn't worth thinking about or considering in your training, at all. If I were a coach, and someone came to me talking about how they have / don't have talent for... well, anything.... my response will always be 1) how do you know? followed by 2) I don't care.

Figure out what your limiters are. work on those. If you aren't improving, and are putting in the work, then you haven't figured out the limiters. could be flexibility, could be power, could be things like time & energy. or recovery. Not many of us really ever get to our full potential. Most of us don't really want to, it means a lot of sacrifices that you may not want to make.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Oh, you would care a LOT as a coach for talent in terms of setting goals, even you know that.

If a perennial BOP swimmer who's putting in the 7-10k/wk and occasional masters for years (might be an older athlete) comes to you and says, "make me a 1:20/100 FOP swimmer for my next IM in 6 months", you'd say fuggetabout it. Heck, you would probably say that even if he said make me a 1:45/100 swimmer in 6 months if he's realistically plateaud despite trying for years.

It's a total copout for the coach to say 'trust me - work hard, you'll get faster', in my opinion. While it may be true, let's be honest - a ny friggin idiot could just say 'just swim 10-15% more than you do now, consistently', and yes, you'd swim a tiny % faster, like <0.3sec/100, but you'd 'be faster. But you'd still finish the race in the exact same spot.

The coach is there to make you MEANINGFULLY faster, within a realistic schedule, and realistic amounts of work you are willing to put in APPROPRIATE TO YOUR LEVEL. Yes, this includes talent, which is rate of improvement. They also help find the limiter, but if the limiter is something that's hard to overcome, like a lot more time needed training (most AG MOP swimmers fall in this category), it's going to be tough going no matter what the workouts are.

It's absolutely true that most AGers never come close to their talent ceiling as pro might, but their rate of improvement is absolutely dictated by their talent, and a coach needs to have either enough experience to see it, or pay close enough attention to measure it to be a good coach.

An AG athlete is no where close to training to the level that “talent” is then the factor. Availability is likely the biggest limiter for the AG athlete.

So many variables that make swim training hard to train up properly for. Talent is 8th in the list of limiters and not worth discussing for many AG athletes.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Wow

Wow

Wow

Seriously so very impressive

Thank you Tim for all you do

Really appreciate it

Your son is very fast. I'm curious how tall he was just before he turned 13?

no. no I really wouldn;t care.

why? because I wouldn't entertain goals like that. hard number goals are a pretty terrible way to actually set the goals. They can be useful metrics, but better goals are around process.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

As I've said ad nauseum - talent + training dictates rate of improvement.

You need both. Even you know that.

You and Jason are both misrepresenting what I'm saying. You seem to think I'm saying because AGers don't train maximal hours, they have no problems with a talent limiter. That is NOT what I'm saying.

I'm saying that AGers by definition pretty much always have a time limiter in training - that's why they're not pros. If you can only swim 7k per week, max, due to scheduling and life demands, that amount of improvement and level of performance you get is going to be heavily dependent on your response to such low training. Which is literally the definition of TALENT.

Every time you discuss a target goal with your athlete, you are having a discussion that's depends on the work they put in, and their talent (intrinsic response to training.) You might not say the word talent, but when you tell that perennial 2:00/100 swimmer that they did a great job by becoming a 1:55/100 swimmer with their hard work, you're making a statement about their talent level and including it directly in your assessment.

Just because AGers don't come close to maxxing their potential, doesn't mean they're not already limited by their intrinsic ability. I know you know this. Kid competitive swim coaches and even the kids themselves know this as they self-weed themselves out of increasingly harder levels of swimming if they're not keeping up -they definitely do NOT have to max their training hours to learn this - they can see it just from their lanemates who might do the exact same work they do, but blow them away every time.

Where I’ll simply disagree is the importance of talent. When you’re talking about athletes who are likely limited in training no offense I don’t want to hear that “talent” is your limiter. that’s not even in the discussion imo.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

no.

untapped potential plus training = rate of improvement. one person could be super talented, but maybe they're closer to their potential than the untalented person. the first is going to find it harder to improve than the "untalented" one who has a lot of low hanging, easily accessible fruit to pick off.

I never said anything about training maximal hours. never. Its not always about training more. It is often about training well, figuring out what works and what doesn't, and ditching the stuff that doesn't.

when you tell that perennial 2:00/100 swimmer that they did a great job by becoming a 1:55/100 swimmer with their hard work, its simply about where they are vs where they were, and how they got there. No statements on "talent" anywhere, neither explicit nor implicit.

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Then tell me - why arent all your athletes winning the overall in their races? Whey aren't they all Kona-qualified?

It's not just because they can't train 20+hrs/wk - quite a few folks qualify for Kona, even in highly competitive age groups, on 10-12hrs/week of training. So why can't your athletes do it?

Or put another way, if "talent" is the limiter, then what can you possibly offer them?

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It might affect where they start off. It might affect where they wind up.

It's mostly irrelevant at all the points in between.

It might affect the maximal amount of workload they can handle. If they aren't at that maximal level, then it doesn't matter.

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Almost all athletes have limiters well before talent is the biggest factor that I work with. And it’s my job to make sure that expectation is set or I don’t work with them,

I don’t have many athletes who set unrealistic expectations. I call these Santa clause prayers,

Want to win races and then do 60% of weekly work. I don’t have many athletes like that. Generally they put in the work and the results generally play out like they should.

I’m generally a 90% rule coach. Do 90% of the work and you’re pretty much going to accomplish your goal. I’m not a coach that will “gurantee” results. KQ or 1st AG etc, I’m more process oriented than saying hire me as you will KQ. You could Pr and miss KQ and that’s a better result imo than KQ by roll down on a meh result. So the extras I’m not much on guranteeing or worrying about. I’m worrying about doing the work and letting that take care of the extras.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Ha - now you're really dodging.

I kinda knew you'd bring this up. I could also bring up other variables as anybody could - nutrition, recovery or lack of, etc. I just two major factors (training+talent) to simplify things and because the two I'm highlighting are so important.

And, yes, you ABSOULTELY ARE making a statement when you tell that 2:00/100 'good job' to get to 1:55. For simplicity, let's assume what I said -they're PERENNIAL 2:00/100s (not totally new with completely untested potential). This is most AGers, very realistic. Year-round 2:00/100 swimmers, despite trying year after year. You are absolutely making a judgment and an implicit statement on their talent when you say 'good job at 1:55!" even if you never say the word talent.

You'd also look heavily into what they did to improve,as you said. If it took them a ton of work and a lot of schedule sacrifice just to get that 5sec/100, which honestly is pretty realistic for a lot of perennial 2:00/100 swimmers, you're not going tell them they'll be in lane 1 of masters by next year.

You don't have to say the word talent, but it's one of the biggest factors that you'll judge your athlete's workouts and goals by, and you know it.

And like I said - the reason they and you don't have unrealistic expectations is because you have included an assessment of their talent HEAVILY in your goals and plans. It's impossible to not do so, even if you go out of your way and twist yourself into knots to NOT give any judgements of talent, or ceiling potential, etc.

You as a coach might THINK your athletes have limiters well before talent, but even you know that isn't the case. If they had real, world-class talent, they would be crushing fields with little training. Tim Don recounts on youtube that coming from only swimming, he ran his first 10k on almost no run training - and ran a 33:xx. His rate of improvement was nuts. Even ajthomas above - he knows his son has a super high talent, from a super young age.

If talent (which includes rate of response to training, if not is the definition of this) is so NOT important to your athlete's results, ALL of your athletes should be going to Kona on 12hrs/week of training, because a good number of people have the ability to do just that.

The reason they can't is they're not as gifted. In fact, many/most of them aren't gifted enough to even make it with a LOT more training that that, and you know that too.

Now if you're just talking about winning your AG at non-national smaller races, then yes, I'd agree with you and I've said this many times. I'm literally the living proof of that over many years now. The ability needed for that is attainable by just hard work for even the middle of the AG talent bell curve. But KQ and above? You better have at least some good genetic ability for SBR to have a chance.

You might be, but I would not. I....DONT...CARE.

and I would never promise outcomes like that. Why the hell would anyone? I've already said that some external measure is a lousy way to set goals, Process is far far more important.

In what way am I dodging? what did I dodge, I'll address it.

as for the hypothetical 2:00/100 swimmer, if thats where they are then they have significant low hanging fruit (assuming they aren't elderly, major mobility issues, etc..). Sorry, but there's no 2 ways about it. Neural pathways can be very hard to correct, so if someone improves 5s per 100 from their "perennial" level, thats significant. Its just that the issues of the 2:00 swimmer will be much easier to find, and less risky to correct, than someone who might be a 1:10/100 swimmer. But it's not a statement on talent, just where they are. It might be really easy, it might be really hard.

edit to add: i might go as far as saying something along the lines of: "If we can fix X Y and Z, then I think we can get you another NN seconds per 100 in your aerobic cruising pace", or something like that. But I'm not making any promises on that, or giving a timeline. It's about developing a plan for how to get there.

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We’ll just agree to disagree and that’s awesome. I’m a no body coach who works with athletes who generally have a like minded mindset. We don’t go after “outcome” goals. We achieve outcome goals through process focused training. So again I’m way more focused on committment level than I am on “talent”. Commit to the goal and generally it’ll happen. Which is why I think that’s likely the bigger obstacle (availability) for most people over “ I’m just not talented enough”…..

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Yes, but even you know you'll never be giving that perennial (let's say stuck at this pace for like 10 years despite regularly swimming year-round) 2:00/100 athlete a long-term goal of swimming 1:10/100, or even 1:20, or likely even 1:40 for distance, EVER.

You develop a plan, see how they respond, but you know by looking at their rate of improvement, it's not going to be a big jump given what they already did.

The fact they're stuck at 2:00/100 for 10 years despite regularly training and trying to improve in itself is a giant statement on their talent level, and you know it.

This is also a very realistic example. Lots of folks stuck in that range of times around 2:00/100 for years, despite coaching, video, etc. You temper the goal expectations on what you've seen them do - and that's literally making a judgment on their talent.

You'd do the same with a perennial 24 min 5k runner for like 10 years. Sure, better training will get them better possibly a lot better, like 22, if lucky, 21. But 17,18, even 19:xx? Vanishingly small possibility. Odds are if they get there, they've misrepresented their prior training which led to the incorrect asssesment.

He’s tallish. Maybe 5-7? I wouldn’t say he “grew early” but he wasn’t one of the kids who didn’t hit a growth spurt before 13.

Luka is a huge 14 yr old. But he’s also going to be a huge adult.

Look, I'm almost certainly the exact kind of athlete you would LOVE to coach.

I don't go after outcome goals either. Sure, it's great if I can win my AG at the local tris to repeat, but sometimes it doesnt' happen,a and sometimes I get blown all the way off the podium. It doesn't concern me the slightest. I'm a lot more interested in my USAT score for comparison, and as long as it's close to what I'm used to for my training, I consider it a great outcome.

I dont even set pace goals or target power for race day. I have a band of possibilities that I know could happen based on my training, but I've learned things vary so much on race day, you gotta just play the day and not your numbers.

I've already improved far in excess of what I ever thought was realistically possible, but now with the training I've done, I think I have an even better sense of what is possible for me, and what is not. You can pretend it's not a factor in your coaching, or training, but it's absolutely there, as I've pointed out. If it wasn't, you'd put everyone on the 12-hrs to Kona plan and be done with it!

Yet it doesn't take a genius to see that if I'm busting my tail 15hrs /week but can't even get CLOSE to a national-class AGer, its pretty fair to conclude, no I don't have the talent to for that kind of performance. I'd don't need to be pandered to like a child "yay you can do anything!" That's a bunch of bull, and we all know it.

Nobody likes to talk about talent, but it's real, and factors HEAVILY into all our training and planning decisions, as well as the results.

I mean no duh talent matters. I just don’t put it on the level you do. I put it in the right context, so if you are talking about normal run of mill AG athlete, imo maxed talent isn’t anywhere close to having occurred.
Far more often it’s lack of availability to do said training that is the bigger factor.

If you can truly say you’ve maxed out your training and potential ok let’s then factor in talent.

But having been a coach for now over 15 years, maxed training potential is generally no where close to maxed out for AG athletes. For the most part AG athletes can’t “max” put their potential to where talent truly is the limiter imo. But no duh this generally is a fun activity that they generally just want to finish in and do their best while having a job, family and social life. Far more are in it for completion than “competing” so talent really doesn’t even matter for most.

So if you want to say talent is the default factor, cool. I just don’t see it that way in our sport.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Again ad nauseum - your limited definition of talent is incorrect.

It is incorrect to say talent only = your potential top ceiling, and ignore the reality that if your top ceiling is very high, your rate of improvement is going to be super high as well.

It's this rate of improvement that's the issue for non-maxxed AGers. And in triathlon, it's likely an issue even for the top pro-elites as well, since they have to distribute effort amongst S-B-R, and thus even they never 'max' any one of the sports. They have to judge their talent (rate of improvemenet for work) in all 3 and find the best combo for the specific race that gives them the best outcome.

There are no ubertalents that has a normal rate of improvement. You have to be a high responder to training to ultimately have a high ceiling.

Rate of improvement (talent) is a fundamental determiner of that outcome you get from the training you put in. Yes, there are other factors, but talent is so big that no coaches, including you, ignore it when you make their training plans and set goals. You can tell me all you want that you ignore it, but when you're not giving your average-joe AGer the 12-hr-to-KQ plan, you're taking heavily into account their talent level regardless of what you say.

I'm generally saying that your top ceilihng has way more to do with your willinginess to put in the work than the "talent capability" that you inherently have or don't have. And back to LS- I think he's ultimately now at a point of this swim either working out or it not. I remember working with a D1 runner turned ITU athlete. He had a specific weakness in the swim that I gave him the same workout for 42 straight days and said until he gets this fixed, nothing else mattered. On the 42nd day he texted me "I feel the HE catch now"....and we moved on to other aspects. That was just the reality of where he was and what he needed to do. Atleast with LS he can have "meh" resaults on World class level and still race some B level events to make a living; So maybe he needs that, but luckily non-draft has enough prize purses to where guys can race well in all races outside of championship level events and still make a living.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Thought experiment.

Swimmer A can hold 1:40/100 for 1500m

Swimmer B can hold 1:20/100 for 1500m

In what meaningful way does that impact training beyond adjusting their base sendoffs appropriately?

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this makes no sense if you are talking about trained athletes.

Michael Phelps had a pretty high top ceiling. He didn't set a single PB for the last 7 years of his career.

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Nontextile suits.

Though Lochte did (drop after ‘09)

Yeah, I know. But the larger point remains. If you’re at the super pointy end, improvement is ridiculously hard regardless of talent level

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How is this not in the official Lionel thread?

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
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And that's ultimately what LS's faces. He's not *that* far off, and so whether that issue is a talent issue / stroke development issue / time investment issue, it really doesn't matter what the actual reason is, because at the end of the day at that level....you either make the chase group or you don't in his case. It's all the more frustating that he's on what "swim discovery 3.0" LS but in the same light, atleast he's tinkering to get better.

And again I think in early years his "poor" swim was overcome by his "uber" biking in world class fields. The sport has evolved and now more than ever other athletes are filling the gaps so to speak and basically forcing LS to figure it out. So I can kinda see why it wasn't the biggest deal breaker 10 years ago (or however long he's been in the elite pro side of sport) that it is currently now for him.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Well, duh, thanks Mr. Obvious!

Yes, it should be!

This discussion is getting ridiculous.

1. Work Matters
2. Aerobic "talent matters"
3. Inherent strength "matters"
4. Flexibility "matters"
5. Coordination in a weightless medium "matters" (by that I mean open chain)

They all matter. I showed up as an 18 year old for my military fitness test and cranked off 20 pull ups with no training for that. It was just from monkeying around at the the playground as a kid hanging off bars and doing flips and jumps and endless manouevres jumping from ground, hanging off bar and lifting my body over the bar and standing on top. Almost no kids in the playground could do what I could do. I had god given flexbility and power. So when I started to learn how to do butterfly after 30 years in triathlon as a 53 year old, I was able to get to a basic level of ability even with a debilitating back injury from which I could barely walk!!!

Now if I ask most swimmers to do the 110m hurdles they will fall over at hurdle number one. I could just say, "keep training you'll get there" I would be lying to most people.

I agree for age group swimming you don't need to be at the max limit of points 1-5 above. But the better you are on each of them you're going to get to a higher level of proficiency earlier. It is the same reason why my sister within 3 months can master most yoga moves that the rest of us can never hope to get to even with a decade of training. She's just talented for doing that. It involves 1-4 above, and the last point would be changed to coordination in a closed chain mode. If you throw both of us into the air and tell us to catch a baseball, or football or serve in tennis, once her feet are not touching the ground she does not have the level of coordination I do with the spine no longer in a compression mode and getting sensory feedback from body parts without the gravitational frame of reference.

Land animals are coordinated with gravitational force goes through spine, water animals are coordinated when their spine is no longer in a compression mode. It is entirely different how the brain connects to the body in these two modes.

Perhaps youth swimmers develop not just the flexiblity but the innate coordination when spine is unweighted.

Food for thought here.

Thank you thank you thank you

I have a friend who so often sets unrealistic time goals. I encourage him to, instead set performance goals.

Hey buddy how about you set a goal of biking 3 times a week for 6 months and see where you end up. But he prefers to say no I want to do 25 miles in under an hour. When in reality he is pushing himself to average 21 MPH for 10 miles

Same in business. You see if on tic toc and YouTube. Hey I’m setting a goal to make 1 million dollars. When in reality setting a goal to work on your business for 2 hours a night after work and 10 hours on the weekend would serve them so much better

But of course that sort of goal setting doesn’t generate likes and clicks

It is funny, because as an AOS I think averaging 10k a week would be incredible! Like, how close to 30 minutes could I get in a 70.3 swim? Under 30? Probably not, but I’d love to find out.

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

Why isn't this in the Lionel thread? Taken a life of its own which is why the thread was created in the first place.

kids developing the innate aquatic coordination and flexibility - yes that is right.

one of the best water polo nations is hungary - very rich history and beautifully skilled players. i was absolutely fanatical about wp when i was 11-16. i read an interview with one of the hungarian coaches years ago about the best way to get better at wp and they said, unlike soccer and rugby where you are in some way training movements by walking to the fridge, for water polo, you need to be in the water as much as and as often as possible if this is your sport. we would be in the water before and after our 2 hour practices just mucking around with the ball and doing tricks and stuff. i never thought that as training but just as fun. we probably trained for 4 hours sometimes but it was just fun and so much shit talk.

we could juggle balls on our feet in the water (probably 4-5 kicks), throw both left and right handed in the water, and jump out to the line of our bathers just using our legs.

like you naturally playing on the play ground and kicking a ball, we just played in the water. it all adds up. now my shoulder kills me if i throw a ball but a great sport to play as a kid

I know I’m late to this party, but I think it is like that. Looking at ITU where swim matters the most, it is so exceedingly rare to find front pack swimmers who are front pack runners. And some of these folks have been training both for a long time. The coffee isn’t even.

My son is 6’4” and down to around 210. D3 swimmer. He is relatively late to swimming but played a lot of soccer growing up and could run a mile somewhere in the 5s his junior year. But he just doesn’t have distance running talent like he does swimming talent. Sophomore year he ran CC because they didn’t have soccer (COVID). Never got under 21 for 5k.

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

I think too much is made of this swimming ability that kids have and adults new to the sport cannot replicate. When I say we have 11/12 year old girls in our club putting out times similar to Sanders, these aren't kids swimming 8, 9 times a week, these aren't kids that have been swimming for 10+ years and these aren't kids that have great technique. Many of them swim 2-3 times a week, have only been swimming 2-3 years and have pretty average technique plus average dives and tumble turns. And in fact that's why the sport is so injurious at a junior level, poor technique. There's no reason why an adult can't develop good technique. If they can't it's probably lack of talent, coordination etc rather than age. It helps having picked up swimming as a kid, but the benefits are, IMO, greatly exaggerated.

I'm going to quote this without wading through all seven pages of this thread.....

Snapping T has consistently over the years suggested that triathletes should stop biking and running to concentrate on swimming..... And maybe it would make them faster swimmers. But the sport is triathlon. If you are a mid pack or slower swimmer, but an elite cyclist/runner, who gives them up for a (year) to concentrate on swimming, is it guaranteed to make you a faster triathlete? Say you go 90 seconds faster on the swim but you are two minutes slower on the bike and four minutes slower on the run.... Have you done yourself any favors in the sport?

I am convinced that lightheir is right. That all of the swimming in the world is not going to have Lionel making the front pack at a major race. But ignoring his strengths to concentrate too heavily on swimming might very well have him finishing slower, overall.

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Jason
None of the secrets of success will work unless you do.

You're right. Because Lionel is an adult onset swimmer. And always will be.

How do you propose he fix this? Is there a time machine that he can get into and go back to age 12 so he can do the volume that Vincent Luis has done?

And your theory that basic athleticism will translate into fast swimming is so off base. But I suspect your lifetime swim volume and skill that resulted from it make this something that you can't see. It's like the math teacher who can't understand why people can't learn math because it is so easy for them.

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Jason
None of the secrets of success will work unless you do.

It’s like my daughter in law who can speak fluent Spanish merely from. Hearing people speak Spanish

Never a single lesson

She doesn’t understand why everyone can’t pick up Spainsh the same way

I am convinced that lightheir is right. That all of the swimming in the world is not going to have Lionel making the front pack at a major race//

Can we please stop with this line of bullshit, no one here or in the know, thinks Lionel is ever going to make the front group. What we are all talking about is him making the 2nd group, and routinely without a taxing effort..You all that keep saying this are just using it to justify your position, and it is not what he is going for, his swim coach, or what the real swimmers who know what it takes are saying..And this is a goal he can absolutely achieve, it wont be easy, but nothing is easy in the pro ranks when going for those marginal gains near your peaks...

Yet another swim thread that could have been a bastion of info, tips, and advice that instead devolved into the lightheir forum of excuses. How many times can you say 'Ill never put in the hard work so everybody else should just give up'.

I also got to play intramural water polo (between squadrons) when I was in the military college here in Canada and from time to time would get called up for the varsity team. I had reasonable good spatial coordination from other ball sports and could swim OK (but being 140 lbs does not make for good waterpolo size). I agree the only way to get the feedback for where you are in the water is to spend time in the water. As you said, when you walk to your car on ice and slip and plant yourself upright before falling you're practicing what you need to do in soccer. But when you are "falling in water" you get zero feedback from your feet and have to get the feedback from all parts of your body.

In any case on this thread people keep saying for age group level you don't need talent, but I can say coaching kids soccer, track, XC skiing for around 15 years, even at age group level, some kids have zero hope. No amount of training will get them to sufficient coordination to head a soccer ball. Others can head a soccer ball but you put them on skis and they just never develop the upper body timing and force. Head over the track and an infinite amount of training won't help some kids get to even a basic level of "age group" sprinting. Some people just have no hope in a given sport. On the adult side, I took an ex hockey player who did triathlon and I taught him to XC ski at a fairly pointy masters XC ski level in sub 2 years. This guy on the other hand who I also coached for triathlon had ZERO hope in the water. He had no shoulder mobility, and no body awareness once in the water, but on skates, on XC skis, running, this guy was just an ultra coordinated natural.

I disagree with the fish around here that at age group level anyone can be trained. If that made sense, it would be possible in tennis, baseball, XC skiing, speedskating, soccer, cricket.....and an endless list of sport, but we all know that in EVERY sport, some people just have no aptitude no matter how much we drag them along. Probably the swim people here are already biased because the people who show up for swimming are largely self selected

Actually I think we’re all saying he likely can’t even make the 2nd pack by today’s faster standards without killing himself. Things changed so fast in the swim that what used to be 1st pack is now 2nd pack.

I’d love to be proven wrong - Monty if you can help him please do it!

Dude I never gave up. I often probably swim more than you do in fact. Stop projecting.

140 pounds is a huge disadvantage for water polo!

Sounds like you’ve been around quite a few different sports - most of the people I know who have gotten into swimming more as an adult probably had some basic training as teens. A guy I know says to people he only took up swimming as an adult but I suspect that is because he feels he didn’t achieve a very good level and may have some shame / embarrassment when he raced school and club (when the real swimmers swam). And he did a 9 minute 800 free short course meters as late 40s.

But in true swimming terms a 9 minute 800 is actually very slow, like this was smashed by 15 years old girls with no goggles 50 years ago (in long course)

I do think that “talent” (a pretty ambiguous concept) is a different thing to time and opportunities to learn an activity, including swimming. Work beats talent when talent doesn’t work :) but you’ve been around lots of different sports so I guess everyone has their own take on

Yes I knew I was right. Was having some banter with they who shall not be named.

I must say, I’d prefer basic athleticism if I was trying to be a professional athlete. It may help.

'
To be fair, language is somewhat different that other skills. Off topic, but we have a language center in our brain - you knock it out (like a stroke), you lose your language.

We don't have a swim center in our brain, unfortunately. We actually do have sort of a running brain, in our cerebellum/medulla, which is why we don't need to specifically train run technique - our wiring figures out the best form for our ability and shape (even if it's weird looking).

Although I'm sure LS wasn't wearing $600 race jammers which would give him at least 3s per 100m, making his times look a little bit better.

dev makes excellent points here..
my son just swam a master's meet in Denver, the overall winner of 100 breaststroke was a 61-year-old..

I can about barely keep up with the high-school girls when they are doing warmup laps..
keep thinking about going to a master's meet but not sure about thrashing into last place, as dev says.. lots of work to be done before stepping on that deck..

and how many other pro triathletes are going to master's meets to humble themselves ? I like that Lionel does it..

haha, the only other pro I know of who shows up at swim meets is Lucy Charles. She went to the British Olympic trials in 2021 for Tokyo 2021 in the 1500 free. She missed the win by 0.17 seconds in a crazy sprint finish in 16:46:

https://triathlonmagazine.ca/...to-ironman-champion/

And maybe it would make them faster swimmers. But the sport is triathlon. If you are a mid pack or slower swimmer, but an elite cyclist/runner, who gives them up for a (year) to concentrate on swimming, is it guaranteed to make you a faster triathlete? Say you go 90 seconds faster on the swim but you are two minutes slower on the bike and four minutes slower on the run.... Have you done yourself any favors in the sport?

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See this is the funny thing. This swim gain is likely the smallest gains possible with the most work to put in if you are talking S B R training, y, yet said swim gain has the biggest impact on his race in world championship level events. Full stop. He realizes that, just look at the sport. The sport has evolved, the front of fields (front group + chase groups) have greatly multipled, so that at min if you are not in the chase pack, your race is pretty much over in world championship events.

It's chess not checkers. LS clearly understands it *now*
Again his "non chase pack swim" early in his career was not the deal breaker that it is now because the fields weren't as stacked toward the front end and his "uber" bike ability could "ride through the field".....He can't do that any longer so thus his "demands of competition" have ramped up.......Hi imo would be put in the "same workout for X amount of days until you get it" strategy because until he gets this, his world class podium results are over. Full stop. So if he can't fix his S his B or R won't matter at world championship events.


If he wants to just play out the string of the rest of his career, he would follow your advice. Show up knowing he has no chance at world champ events. If he thinks he still has 1 last rally to his career, then it starts and ends with his swim to chase pack ability. Doesn’t mean hard work means he makes it. But it means you can’t apply your theory in this instance. Until the swim is improved the B and R are meaningless for podium potential.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

To be fair, LS's situation isn't that of typical AGers. It's kinda unique to him - top world class bike and run, but loses the race on the swim. So obviously HE has to bring up swimming or game over in the current state of competition.

That's not the same situation that typical AGers have - they've got plenty of improvement left in bike-run, even if they're weaker on swim, and there are many ways for them to achieve their goals of improvement (they're not maxxed on the bike/run like a top pro like Lionel might be.) It's pretty easy to argue that typical AGers doing HIM or IM should get their swim to an acceptable level, but then focus on improving bike-run for bang for buck time gains, since the swim is so short relative to the other two.

I'm still myself a big fan of swimming a lot esp since I race a lot of Olys. It's pretty typical for half my training volume to be swimming through an entire training cycle (and I still lag on it by a lot compared to my bike or run, sadly). I think it does help run and bike to your potential even if your swim split isn't giving you tons of time on the clock, but it's really hard to measure that.

If anybody other than you had told me the race Jammers are worth 3 secs/100m I would have called BS.....do you really think it's that much? That is almost the effect of a wetsuit for a top tier swimmer.

Wikipedia says 1.9-2.2% for elite swimmers for Speedo LZR, about 1sec/100. And that's for a full body suit.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LZR_Racer

There are pros I work with who go or are going to swim meets.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

SnappingT, you're just trying to act smart (you don't need to, you already ARE !!!). You're saying, "look I know all this stuff but I won't tell you". To help yourself, just name said pros. Otherwise you're not saying anything. You could have also pointed out what you see from Lionel's video from Arena games Montreal. But you didn't. You just chose to be the expert knows what he should do but won't say so. As an example Gary Hall Sr comes on here and says what can be done.

It feels like you're being like the engineer who needs to be the smartest guy in the room by telling others they are wrong. Fine, we're wrong, can you just say what is right (be it the pros that are going to swim races, or what Lionel can do to improve other than just swim more ?). This does not need to be a swimmers vs triathletes thing (I straddle both camps being mainly a swimmer who shows up a triathlons).

I don't think he needs to be name the people he works with. Personally I wouldn't want a coach talking about me unless I had agreed to this, and by name, no thanks. Some use ST like an extension of FB and social media but others who do not use social media and prefer some anonomyity that would be quite an issue for them.

Hey - are you saying Lionel would not improve his swam if he swam more? ;) I just think back to what they did in the 70s and 80s. People with ugly strokes, no swim hats, no float suits, who cannot tumble turn, never heard of a stream line in their life, just a lot of swim specific power from swimming hours a day. They went pretty decent

Any Coach going on Slowtwitch to talk specifically about a pro he is coaching would risk becoming a former coach quickly. What I hear Tim saying is the exact same thing I have heard Gerry Rodrigues and Gary Hall SR. say, if you are not doing 40,000-50,000k per week, then that is where you have to start. That is where you will get the greatest returns.

Certainly, talent plays a role in swimming....You need talent to swim a 4:30 500 yard free like Andy Potts or Ben Kanute. You do not need much talent, however, to swim a 5:50......it just takes a lot of work (assuming you are in your athletic prime). 1:10/100 yds is about a 50 min Ironman swim. That is all Lionel needs. I think that is well within the realm of his abilities.

In High School I was about a 5:05 500 free.....I had very little talent.....that is about as far as hard work will take you....In triathlon that is plenty far enough.

Oh, but there are plenty of kids even out there who are easily outswimming LS - with a lot less yardage than even he does, and probably less total life experience swimming due to their young age. It's not taking them anywhere as much work to swim as fast or faster than he is.

I do suspect for LS in particular, it may take a doubling of his swim volume to see a subtantive gain in his swim race performances, just based on the diminshing gains I'm see when I double my swim volume. I got faster, but you'd barely notice the improvement in my results they were so small

I'm not even joking when I say LS should definitely be testing literally every swim skin or wetsuit if legal for his races, out there for a better fitting one as well. I recently sized down from what used to fit me well med-small Roka to a small Roka which was def harder to put on, but also definitely faster both in pool and OW - to the order of an improvement gain that I'd have to swim 20k/wk in training vs 10k/wk just to equal through training alone.

@ Greatzaa - I also think you probably have a skewed sense of talent as well regarding swimming, just because you were getting beaten by similarly-gifted people in competitive HS swimming. The fact you lasted long enough to make it to HS competitive swimming shows that you survived numerous rounds of swim selection as the training and competition went up, so you clearly had a lot of natural ability for it - just maybe not compared to other really, really gifted swimmers. But I'd guarantee if we took 100 random triathletes and somehow was able to accurately measure their 'genetic swim potential' and compare yours to them, you'd almost certainly be like top 1-2 just because you lasted to HS comp swimming.

Of course talent would make it easier, but that does not mean if you don't have talent, you can't swim fast enough to make the second group.

I think we can both agree that you don't need a lot of talent to swim a 1:30 Ironman?

We might also agree that you need quite a bit of talent to swim sub 47?

The only point of disagreement is how much talent do you need to swim 50 mins.....I would argue, not an incredible amount....certainly, less than what Lionel has.

I agree with you on the benchmarks. I think LS is pushing up against his talent limit in swimming given his training volume, so even if 'not-much' talent is needed to swim 50 in professional triathlon (I'm sure this would be routine for the ITU guys now), I'm guessing it's gonna be really hard for LS, unfortunately.

So we agree on just about everything then.....I agree it will be really hard....but not impossible

He doesn't need to name anyone "planning" to show up at a swim race but he can certainly explicitly point us to results of pro triathletes who HAVE DONE swim races (while being pro triathletes).

I do agree with SnappingT that Lionel (or anyone) will swim faster by swimming more, but that's not saying anything new. This is all I am saying. Tell us what you see about Lionel's stroke and what he may be doing wrong. We can all learn.

My guess is that swim races are done more in the capacity that it adds the "fun" competitive element to the training block that is going to likely be the least fun for the athlete. Engagement/consistency is likely the most important aspect of training and for an athlete who's having to basically go "all in" on the least fun and worst training element, a local swim meet may be the perfect ticket. I would guess for many pro triathletes, there is no real point to a swim meet. They accomplish that every time they race. That's where the training showcases itself for most.

But I'm guessing they are using this as a way to get benchmark testing results.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

When Gerry had Lionel on his you tube he said this. Benchmark and what better place to do it at a swim meet to push himself.

When he is swimming bad he just looks like he is just using his arms and legs independently of each other, and he is not floating on his hips at all or driving through his core.

I am not a coach, but if I was, my 10 rules would be these:

1. Put the form goggles in the cupboard. Swim using the performance swim gear - speedo, arena or tyr. Self perception matters. Look at what the swimmers wear.
2. Swim more. Nothing less than 35k for 3 months. Swim as much as you can handle and if you stink like chlorine and your partner is complaining, good.
3. Bench mark 10x100 on 130 best effort at start of block and then end of block.
4. Learn how to sprint. Plenty of fast and then easy swimming over 25s and 50s. Learn how to sprint head down so you can get turn over up.
5. Focus parts of sets on swimming with a higher rate and a lower rate. So higher rating swimming and then DPS work. Aim to hit 30 strokes for a 50m lap if you can manage - no fly kick off the wall.
6. Do backstroke - teaches you more about your kick, core and catch you can't quite get from FS all the time. 1 - 3k backstroke sets a few times a week.
7. Doing descending sets - starting at an easier interval then descending pace throughout to way above IM pace on the last set, whether that is 7x200 or 6x400. 4 x per week.
8. Burn the pull buoy and float pants and never see them again. Invite Talbot around to film it. Put the paddles in the bin.
9. Try swimming backstroke with ankles crossed. Swimming 6-10 x 50s freestyle with a band every day.
10. Sculling drills 3 - 4 p week with a snorkel - 5 minutes of hard sculling with your arms in the catch position. Arms should hurt like shit.

What do you reckon? You've done 10KM IM sets and you can't tell me that didn't do wonders for your endurance and responding to training in the pool.

Hello Tim

It is a chance for us to have you discuss here.

Critical swim speed of Lionel (corresponding to MLSS/LT2) in pool :
putting the swim meeting times (SCM) of Lionel in a calculator indicate a CSS of 1.27m/s ie 1mn19 / 100m
Looking at his "Lactate swim test" video, the test indicate LT2 at 1mn14.9 / 100y so 1mn22 / 100m
"L'un dans l'autre" as we say in french, his CSS is probably around 1mn20 /100m in pool (no buoy or wet suit or salty water)

Critical swim speed of top tri contenders with swim background (Angert, Baekkegard, Amberger, Laidlow...), from what I have seen, seems to be more around 1mn10 / 100m (also in pool). Am'I right ?

Apparently Wellbrock and top OWS are more like 1mn05 /100m ?

For an IM, you'd better go not faster than your CSS effort in order to avoid too much lactate in the blood for bike start (too much lactate supressing fat ox) ?

Assuming IM swim is around CSS, LS will loose in a non-wetsuit & fresh water swim 10x38=380s so more than 6mn. Or force the swim and burn his bike.

In order to reduce the gap to 2mn30s (chase group), he need to gain 6s/100m on his CSS.

Salty water provide buoyancy and help to reduce the gap between good and bad swimmers, not sure how much ?
Swimming with a wetsuit will also help to reduce the gap between good and bad swimmers. How much ? But Kona is historically non wet suit. Better chances in Nice....

Historically LS was pushing a lot of intensity in training globally, before DTD and Mikal. Improving CSS requires a lot of work below CSS ?

Recently I read a PhD Thesis (from 2018) from a guy in INSEP (french institute of sport) saying that most french elite swimmer were mostly training at too high intensity compared to their objectives, lacking the "base training".
Maybe why Leon Marchand choose to train elsewhere.... anyway the guy said it was possibly because swimmer feel more confortable around CSS than below... and also some coaches should read more....

If it is true for an elite swimmer targeting 200 and 400m, I suppose LS can have the same issue ?

If you kept swimming hard into your college years you would have dropped way more time in the 500 I reckon. Down from 505 to 440s or 450s. Gerry had Jesse Thomas doing some 40-50k weeks if I recall correctly and I haven’t found or looked for any information from GHSR.

The body and the mind just experiment and figure things out when you are in the water that much

replying to the thread

Did anybody see the Laidlows interview. They said that they feel bad swimmers swim too much ingraining bad technique because they swim tired. Sam chose the other way around and swims little but goes all out on theses sessions but maintaining good technique
Another fact i learned is that Sam as a kid swam maybe once a week and finished like 100th out of 120 one year and in the top ten the next. His dad ( a former swimmer himself) insisted on the the technique aspect saying he wanted Sam to be able to keep his technique when he would grow up.

I think it also has to do with the talent aspect. It is also like when Jayson said that swimming is 100% technical and 100 % physical. Well technique takes a lot of effort and most triathletes do not enjoy the swimming part. And you are still limited by lack of flexibility which is a big talent/thing to work on when you just do not have it.

I swim with guys who are way much more gifted than i am at running and biking yet their swimming form/technique and speed is just awful. I went from 2' 15 to 1' 10 in 18 months at 26 when they are stuck at the 2' 10'' barrier but their age certainly makes it harder. Swimming 4 times a week with a good coach on deck does not help. I did not swim more than 3 times a week to improve that much. I felt i was learning a new language and loved the feeling of improving but feel i was really dedicated in my swimming. I enjoyed the process and loved breaking PR every week.

I find it funny that Sam 's training partner Arthur Horseau does not really improve despite swimming with Sam and being coached by his dad.
I also remember that Horseau said he took up triathlon and swimming in high school and swam up to 9 times a week (around 35 K a week). He also said that he worked too much and did not work enough on technique . At the time, he was racing the French Grand Prix but Horseau never really made the gap. He only said that he felt fresher out of the water. So again, hard work may be needed but quantity just does not cut it. If Lionel does not really want it and enjoys the process and is coached by a coach he trust, nothing will happen. And even then, chances are slimm

Ditlev may be one athletes who has improved quite a lot. I guess his length and age may help him but then Sam Long is also tall and young but his bad technique/lack of flexibility makes it hard for him to improve. Maybe Ditlev dedicated engineering mind also help him more than just bullying his way around.

One last point, i agreed with Paul, that swimming makes it hard for outsider. I remember i took me years to drop the open turns because i was afraid that it would be/look/feel ridiculous to tumble turn if i was not a real swimmer. i remember finishing around 10th in an open water 3K yet i was the first one over 20 years old (i was 43 at the time) so everything is relative. I swam ok but got lapped by kids who are Olympians, they were faast !

I liked it when Paul Newsome told Skipper that he was a good swimmer because there is no way you are a bad swimmer if you swim 54 min in a IM. I also feel that Sanders times are quite good given his technique/limitations. I know a lot of people who look better but most of them cannot swim 19 min for a 1500 m. I wonder what Paul Devashish times are on the distance as he is the typical gifted guy who has an eye for technique (i loved his thread about learning fly)

I think Gerry and Talbot were with him so hopefully we will get some more info to fuel the debate.

You remember well :

https://www.triathlete.com/culture/the-triathlife-whats-the-deal-with-the-old-guy/

Great article, very funny, and very much linked to our discussions about being smoked by kids :

"To take his swim to the next level, professional triathlete Jesse Thomas subjected himself to the worst kind of torture—working out with high school kids. "
...
"But the social exile is nothing compared to the athletic ego deflation. There’s a nice 14-year-old girl who swims in my lane—and smokes me 95 percent of the time. I have secretly started calling her Nemesis. At this point I don’t know if I’d rather podium at a world championship or win one stinking workout against that girl.
Recently Nemesis and I did a 1K time trial. I had stayed with her on the previous few workouts, so I assumed we would swim similar times. She was in the heat before me and went out like a rocket. I told my wife, “She’s going out way too hard. She’s going to die so bad!” Well, she held it, finishing in 11:08. This surely meant I would demolish my goal of 11:40. I jumped onto the block full of enthusiasm, had a clean dive and went out strong. I finished in 11:50."

Replying to the thread in general.
Some of your tips are spot on. Speaking from the perspective of a low D1 swimmer, and a swim/polo coach, there is so much low hanging fruit for Lionel in terms of technique, I wonder what his coaches are doing.

I know we only get partial views into what Lionel’s swims are from his videos, but things he can improve:
1) reach.
2) hip drive/coordination
3) not slipping in the water/improving his catch.

It really looks like he has no feel for the water, no ‘grip’ on his stroke, and no power on his stroke.

He should be doing ~1000 yards of drill work and scull work every swim. He doesn’t need to know his lactate numbers when he has worse technique than some of my water polo players.

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http://www.savagesentiments.blogspot.com/
http://www.tricoachmartin.com/
https://www.facebook.com/teameverymanjack

I think one of the tough things that happens in an athletes situation like LS, is that there is so much “pressure” that every swim seemingly turns into a referendum. Throwing away the stop watch for 1-3 months in a case like LS is likely to be more beneficial because it takes the likely biggest pressure point out of the picture. Of course there is a point when you will use the clock to note improvement etc, but I hope he gets “play swims” in the training where he just goes to the pool 1 time a week and just swims. Maybe he works on his streamline, maybe it’s a flip turn or does kick/scull. But a swim where he can just go do anything in the water that he feels the need to do.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

The issue for Lionel is he 100% should not be allowed to do what he feels for the swim. This is not running or biking where you can go do a workout and largely have it be beneficial no matter what. He needs someone on deck who is constantly focused on his technique. Every drill and every lap has a purpose until it is good. Then he can go for an easy swim of his choice. But he should not be deciding what to work on until his technique is better.

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http://www.savagesentiments.blogspot.com/
http://www.tricoachmartin.com/
https://www.facebook.com/teameverymanjack

I think we'll agree to disagree, if a swimmer in LS's situation is going to be doing 10 swims a week, having 1 30 min session that is "just go to the pool" and play likely is as beneficial for that 1 time a week than being told every second of every swim what to do for the next 3 months. There's an important "fun" aspect of this that has to be taken into consideration when talking about an developmental pathway.

Again this "play" swim is basically the anti workout workout. It's not designed to have LS self coach himself in that workout. It's basically a set to go float, scull for 25 and stop and sit on the wall and just "be" in the pool. Go be goofy and dive in the water, see how far you can streamline off the wall with no kick, etc. It's not designed as a "workout", it's designed as a sneaky way to just be one with the water in a low key manner. Again it's the anti workout. It's the exact opposite of what you describe- needing 100% coached focus (which I'm agreement with you on that).


ETA: Obviously if you as an athlete are doing less than a half dozen swims a week, the "play" swim is sorta a waste of time. But if you truly are in a "swim focused" block where you are doing 4-5 doubles a week, the "play" swim is absolutely a must imo. Again it's the 1 "anti workout" a week that isn't an indictment on your ability that every other swim set is in that crucial time period.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

This brings up an interesting point. I didn't start competitive swimming until I was 13/14 years old, but prior to that I was "always" in the water. Summertime I practically lived on the beach (growing up in Bermuda the beach was a 10 minute walk from our house). Just playing, body surfing, chasing fish. I think that had a lot to do with developing a feel for the water.

even when I began competitive swimming, my club did lots of "play" type activities. water polo, sharks & minnows / marco polo, all that stuff.

I never see triathletes do that. I get it, its kinda weird-looking for adults to be "playing", but we're grown men in speedos. We're weird anyway.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Funny thing about the "play" swim, and this was something I learned many years ago when working within the USAT Collegiate Recruitment Program (CRP) pipeline. USAT's answer to itu success was to find single sport athletes and turn them into triathletes. Generally you wanted a runner who had either god given natural talent to somehow get fast in the water as quick or possible or a runner who did 3 years of summer league swim in their youth. That athlete generally had a better success pathway than a D1 swimmer who could *only* run 16:12 5k pr. If you can't run sub ~14:10 5k, you ain't going to win a medal in itu. But generally as long as you can swim chase pack ability, generally race dynamics meant the front group and chase group would generally merge. Now with the development and specialization of the sport as it continues to mature (again we are only on the 7th Olympics for our sport; it's still a relatively "young" sport), taking a D1 single sport athlete and turning them into a world class itu athlete is generally harder and harder to do.

But that program has about an 8% success rate of taking an athlete to the WTCS level; of which the greatest success's of the likes GJ (gold medal), KZ (multiple world champion), Pearson (MTR medal winner); so there are far more failure stories for tons of reasons- burn out, lack of talent, lack of finaicial resources; and lastly they just want to get a job and be a regular card carrying member of society.

So we are talking about putting athletes through lots and lots of double swim workouts for months at a time; and then basically going for "skill" development on the Bike side and then sorta putting run training into maitenance mode. You'd take a fresh athlete in this, and they would be gung ho.....everyone wants to win a medal, everything thinks they are the one that will develop into world champion, etc.

What's funny about adding the play swim into those weekly workouts. Initially athletes would be so hesitant with "you mean I just go do whatever", they'd end up doing a mini 10 x 50 or X x 100's, and they'd say "coach I did 1700yd in that 30 mins"....They would be shocked when I would repy "swim less" next time. 3 months later when they were obviously getting better in the water, they'd be doing 1000 yards in 30 mins and would finally recognize the value in the "play" swim. It's the 1 workout a week where they get to turn off their brain and not worry about the "stress" that their athletic situation has them in.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Here's where triathlon is off in its thinking on training and swimming can be blamed for this too, although it is starting to change in the swim:

If you think the "metabolics" for swimming are the primary thing to be measuring, quantifying and trying to impact, you are on the wrong path. Lactate, aerobic capacity, anaerobic capacity are all byproducts of what you are actually training. Let me say it again - they are BYPRODUCTS of what you are primarily training.

The biggest limiter for professionals who are trying to get closer to the front pack is not about steady pacing or dropping 2 seconds per 100m off their overall time. It's about speed and efficiency. The race is determined by the opening 400-600m. The pace is much faster than what the average pace of the swim will be. For instance, the first 100m at Kona has traditionally been about 1:11. To normalize that to figure out how you would need to train, it's an open water start - minus 2-3 seconds. It's open water (no turn) - minus 1-2 seconds. That gives us anywhere from 3-5 seconds, so call it 1:06-1:08 for the first 100m. The conversion to a yards pool would be :59-1:01. What does that mean? Unless you can swim in the range of 54-55 or better for a 100 yard swim or 1:01-1:03 100m you won't be able to swim 1:06-1:08/:59-1:01 without that being a completely all out effort. If that first 100 at that pace is an all out effort, you are done and that doesn't count the next 300 - 500m that is at a very hard pace or the surge that will come at the turn or the surge in the last 400m. You have to be trained for all of that. I've seen athletes who were with the 2nd group get dropped 800m from the finish and lose 3+ minutes to the 2nd group in that 800m.


Swimming is notorious for over-training. It is the perfect sport for it. It takes a lot to get injured and shut down the training. It is part of the reason I'm so aware of it in triathlon. I read studies/journal articles all the time. I try to stay up on what other people are thinking. But if you have a thesis talking about lacking "base training," I'm assuming they mean building an "aerobic base," I wouldn't even read that thesis. They don't even know what the fundamental component of fast, efficient swimming is or how to train it.

Thanks for the great questions and you have any other please let me know.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

I share with athletes on this forum all the time and a lot more than anyone else. I just a posted a video analysis of an athlete who posted his swim video asking help. I answered all of his follow up questions at zero cost.



Do I pick and choose what information and when I'm going to share it - absolutely.

I'm not going to talk about pros who I worked with or work with in any specificity. In terms of former athletes, I used to hold a swim meet at the end of the camp I put on for professionals. We did a 500 free, a 100 free and a 200 free relay. Not every pro posts on social media.

I've given a lot more specific recommendations than "swim more." I'm sorry that what I have given doesn't rise up to your standards for free advice, but you also need to remember I'm not here posting for you to meet your specific needs.

I hope this helps and Happy Thanksgiving,

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Just as a point of information, the world record for 45-49 men in the 800 scm is 8:24.75, so IMO 9:XX is pretty good for a guy in his late 40s. Not elite obv since the open WR is 7:23.42 by the legendary Grant Hackett back in 2008.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

This thread is just to much, I can't read through it all. Anyway, I'm glad to see Lionel's swim meet brought so much attention to people. Negative or not, he should read through all these comments and learn.