There are pros I work with who go or are going to swim meets.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

SnappingT, you're just trying to act smart (you don't need to, you already ARE !!!). You're saying, "look I know all this stuff but I won't tell you". To help yourself, just name said pros. Otherwise you're not saying anything. You could have also pointed out what you see from Lionel's video from Arena games Montreal. But you didn't. You just chose to be the expert knows what he should do but won't say so. As an example Gary Hall Sr comes on here and says what can be done.

It feels like you're being like the engineer who needs to be the smartest guy in the room by telling others they are wrong. Fine, we're wrong, can you just say what is right (be it the pros that are going to swim races, or what Lionel can do to improve other than just swim more ?). This does not need to be a swimmers vs triathletes thing (I straddle both camps being mainly a swimmer who shows up a triathlons).

I don't think he needs to be name the people he works with. Personally I wouldn't want a coach talking about me unless I had agreed to this, and by name, no thanks. Some use ST like an extension of FB and social media but others who do not use social media and prefer some anonomyity that would be quite an issue for them.

Hey - are you saying Lionel would not improve his swam if he swam more? ;) I just think back to what they did in the 70s and 80s. People with ugly strokes, no swim hats, no float suits, who cannot tumble turn, never heard of a stream line in their life, just a lot of swim specific power from swimming hours a day. They went pretty decent

Any Coach going on Slowtwitch to talk specifically about a pro he is coaching would risk becoming a former coach quickly. What I hear Tim saying is the exact same thing I have heard Gerry Rodrigues and Gary Hall SR. say, if you are not doing 40,000-50,000k per week, then that is where you have to start. That is where you will get the greatest returns.

Certainly, talent plays a role in swimming....You need talent to swim a 4:30 500 yard free like Andy Potts or Ben Kanute. You do not need much talent, however, to swim a 5:50......it just takes a lot of work (assuming you are in your athletic prime). 1:10/100 yds is about a 50 min Ironman swim. That is all Lionel needs. I think that is well within the realm of his abilities.

In High School I was about a 5:05 500 free.....I had very little talent.....that is about as far as hard work will take you....In triathlon that is plenty far enough.

Oh, but there are plenty of kids even out there who are easily outswimming LS - with a lot less yardage than even he does, and probably less total life experience swimming due to their young age. It's not taking them anywhere as much work to swim as fast or faster than he is.

I do suspect for LS in particular, it may take a doubling of his swim volume to see a subtantive gain in his swim race performances, just based on the diminshing gains I'm see when I double my swim volume. I got faster, but you'd barely notice the improvement in my results they were so small

I'm not even joking when I say LS should definitely be testing literally every swim skin or wetsuit if legal for his races, out there for a better fitting one as well. I recently sized down from what used to fit me well med-small Roka to a small Roka which was def harder to put on, but also definitely faster both in pool and OW - to the order of an improvement gain that I'd have to swim 20k/wk in training vs 10k/wk just to equal through training alone.

@ Greatzaa - I also think you probably have a skewed sense of talent as well regarding swimming, just because you were getting beaten by similarly-gifted people in competitive HS swimming. The fact you lasted long enough to make it to HS competitive swimming shows that you survived numerous rounds of swim selection as the training and competition went up, so you clearly had a lot of natural ability for it - just maybe not compared to other really, really gifted swimmers. But I'd guarantee if we took 100 random triathletes and somehow was able to accurately measure their 'genetic swim potential' and compare yours to them, you'd almost certainly be like top 1-2 just because you lasted to HS comp swimming.

Of course talent would make it easier, but that does not mean if you don't have talent, you can't swim fast enough to make the second group.

I think we can both agree that you don't need a lot of talent to swim a 1:30 Ironman?

We might also agree that you need quite a bit of talent to swim sub 47?

The only point of disagreement is how much talent do you need to swim 50 mins.....I would argue, not an incredible amount....certainly, less than what Lionel has.

I agree with you on the benchmarks. I think LS is pushing up against his talent limit in swimming given his training volume, so even if 'not-much' talent is needed to swim 50 in professional triathlon (I'm sure this would be routine for the ITU guys now), I'm guessing it's gonna be really hard for LS, unfortunately.

So we agree on just about everything then.....I agree it will be really hard....but not impossible

He doesn't need to name anyone "planning" to show up at a swim race but he can certainly explicitly point us to results of pro triathletes who HAVE DONE swim races (while being pro triathletes).

I do agree with SnappingT that Lionel (or anyone) will swim faster by swimming more, but that's not saying anything new. This is all I am saying. Tell us what you see about Lionel's stroke and what he may be doing wrong. We can all learn.

My guess is that swim races are done more in the capacity that it adds the "fun" competitive element to the training block that is going to likely be the least fun for the athlete. Engagement/consistency is likely the most important aspect of training and for an athlete who's having to basically go "all in" on the least fun and worst training element, a local swim meet may be the perfect ticket. I would guess for many pro triathletes, there is no real point to a swim meet. They accomplish that every time they race. That's where the training showcases itself for most.

But I'm guessing they are using this as a way to get benchmark testing results.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

When Gerry had Lionel on his you tube he said this. Benchmark and what better place to do it at a swim meet to push himself.

When he is swimming bad he just looks like he is just using his arms and legs independently of each other, and he is not floating on his hips at all or driving through his core.

I am not a coach, but if I was, my 10 rules would be these:

1. Put the form goggles in the cupboard. Swim using the performance swim gear - speedo, arena or tyr. Self perception matters. Look at what the swimmers wear.
2. Swim more. Nothing less than 35k for 3 months. Swim as much as you can handle and if you stink like chlorine and your partner is complaining, good.
3. Bench mark 10x100 on 130 best effort at start of block and then end of block.
4. Learn how to sprint. Plenty of fast and then easy swimming over 25s and 50s. Learn how to sprint head down so you can get turn over up.
5. Focus parts of sets on swimming with a higher rate and a lower rate. So higher rating swimming and then DPS work. Aim to hit 30 strokes for a 50m lap if you can manage - no fly kick off the wall.
6. Do backstroke - teaches you more about your kick, core and catch you can't quite get from FS all the time. 1 - 3k backstroke sets a few times a week.
7. Doing descending sets - starting at an easier interval then descending pace throughout to way above IM pace on the last set, whether that is 7x200 or 6x400. 4 x per week.
8. Burn the pull buoy and float pants and never see them again. Invite Talbot around to film it. Put the paddles in the bin.
9. Try swimming backstroke with ankles crossed. Swimming 6-10 x 50s freestyle with a band every day.
10. Sculling drills 3 - 4 p week with a snorkel - 5 minutes of hard sculling with your arms in the catch position. Arms should hurt like shit.

What do you reckon? You've done 10KM IM sets and you can't tell me that didn't do wonders for your endurance and responding to training in the pool.

Hello Tim

It is a chance for us to have you discuss here.

Critical swim speed of Lionel (corresponding to MLSS/LT2) in pool :
putting the swim meeting times (SCM) of Lionel in a calculator indicate a CSS of 1.27m/s ie 1mn19 / 100m
Looking at his "Lactate swim test" video, the test indicate LT2 at 1mn14.9 / 100y so 1mn22 / 100m
"L'un dans l'autre" as we say in french, his CSS is probably around 1mn20 /100m in pool (no buoy or wet suit or salty water)

Critical swim speed of top tri contenders with swim background (Angert, Baekkegard, Amberger, Laidlow...), from what I have seen, seems to be more around 1mn10 / 100m (also in pool). Am'I right ?

Apparently Wellbrock and top OWS are more like 1mn05 /100m ?

For an IM, you'd better go not faster than your CSS effort in order to avoid too much lactate in the blood for bike start (too much lactate supressing fat ox) ?

Assuming IM swim is around CSS, LS will loose in a non-wetsuit & fresh water swim 10x38=380s so more than 6mn. Or force the swim and burn his bike.

In order to reduce the gap to 2mn30s (chase group), he need to gain 6s/100m on his CSS.

Salty water provide buoyancy and help to reduce the gap between good and bad swimmers, not sure how much ?
Swimming with a wetsuit will also help to reduce the gap between good and bad swimmers. How much ? But Kona is historically non wet suit. Better chances in Nice....

Historically LS was pushing a lot of intensity in training globally, before DTD and Mikal. Improving CSS requires a lot of work below CSS ?

Recently I read a PhD Thesis (from 2018) from a guy in INSEP (french institute of sport) saying that most french elite swimmer were mostly training at too high intensity compared to their objectives, lacking the "base training".
Maybe why Leon Marchand choose to train elsewhere.... anyway the guy said it was possibly because swimmer feel more confortable around CSS than below... and also some coaches should read more....

If it is true for an elite swimmer targeting 200 and 400m, I suppose LS can have the same issue ?

If you kept swimming hard into your college years you would have dropped way more time in the 500 I reckon. Down from 505 to 440s or 450s. Gerry had Jesse Thomas doing some 40-50k weeks if I recall correctly and I haven’t found or looked for any information from GHSR.

The body and the mind just experiment and figure things out when you are in the water that much

replying to the thread

Did anybody see the Laidlows interview. They said that they feel bad swimmers swim too much ingraining bad technique because they swim tired. Sam chose the other way around and swims little but goes all out on theses sessions but maintaining good technique
Another fact i learned is that Sam as a kid swam maybe once a week and finished like 100th out of 120 one year and in the top ten the next. His dad ( a former swimmer himself) insisted on the the technique aspect saying he wanted Sam to be able to keep his technique when he would grow up.

I think it also has to do with the talent aspect. It is also like when Jayson said that swimming is 100% technical and 100 % physical. Well technique takes a lot of effort and most triathletes do not enjoy the swimming part. And you are still limited by lack of flexibility which is a big talent/thing to work on when you just do not have it.

I swim with guys who are way much more gifted than i am at running and biking yet their swimming form/technique and speed is just awful. I went from 2' 15 to 1' 10 in 18 months at 26 when they are stuck at the 2' 10'' barrier but their age certainly makes it harder. Swimming 4 times a week with a good coach on deck does not help. I did not swim more than 3 times a week to improve that much. I felt i was learning a new language and loved the feeling of improving but feel i was really dedicated in my swimming. I enjoyed the process and loved breaking PR every week.

I find it funny that Sam 's training partner Arthur Horseau does not really improve despite swimming with Sam and being coached by his dad.
I also remember that Horseau said he took up triathlon and swimming in high school and swam up to 9 times a week (around 35 K a week). He also said that he worked too much and did not work enough on technique . At the time, he was racing the French Grand Prix but Horseau never really made the gap. He only said that he felt fresher out of the water. So again, hard work may be needed but quantity just does not cut it. If Lionel does not really want it and enjoys the process and is coached by a coach he trust, nothing will happen. And even then, chances are slimm

Ditlev may be one athletes who has improved quite a lot. I guess his length and age may help him but then Sam Long is also tall and young but his bad technique/lack of flexibility makes it hard for him to improve. Maybe Ditlev dedicated engineering mind also help him more than just bullying his way around.

One last point, i agreed with Paul, that swimming makes it hard for outsider. I remember i took me years to drop the open turns because i was afraid that it would be/look/feel ridiculous to tumble turn if i was not a real swimmer. i remember finishing around 10th in an open water 3K yet i was the first one over 20 years old (i was 43 at the time) so everything is relative. I swam ok but got lapped by kids who are Olympians, they were faast !

I liked it when Paul Newsome told Skipper that he was a good swimmer because there is no way you are a bad swimmer if you swim 54 min in a IM. I also feel that Sanders times are quite good given his technique/limitations. I know a lot of people who look better but most of them cannot swim 19 min for a 1500 m. I wonder what Paul Devashish times are on the distance as he is the typical gifted guy who has an eye for technique (i loved his thread about learning fly)

I think Gerry and Talbot were with him so hopefully we will get some more info to fuel the debate.

You remember well :

https://www.triathlete.com/culture/the-triathlife-whats-the-deal-with-the-old-guy/

Great article, very funny, and very much linked to our discussions about being smoked by kids :

"To take his swim to the next level, professional triathlete Jesse Thomas subjected himself to the worst kind of torture—working out with high school kids. "
...
"But the social exile is nothing compared to the athletic ego deflation. There’s a nice 14-year-old girl who swims in my lane—and smokes me 95 percent of the time. I have secretly started calling her Nemesis. At this point I don’t know if I’d rather podium at a world championship or win one stinking workout against that girl.
Recently Nemesis and I did a 1K time trial. I had stayed with her on the previous few workouts, so I assumed we would swim similar times. She was in the heat before me and went out like a rocket. I told my wife, “She’s going out way too hard. She’s going to die so bad!” Well, she held it, finishing in 11:08. This surely meant I would demolish my goal of 11:40. I jumped onto the block full of enthusiasm, had a clean dive and went out strong. I finished in 11:50."

Replying to the thread in general.
Some of your tips are spot on. Speaking from the perspective of a low D1 swimmer, and a swim/polo coach, there is so much low hanging fruit for Lionel in terms of technique, I wonder what his coaches are doing.

I know we only get partial views into what Lionel’s swims are from his videos, but things he can improve:
1) reach.
2) hip drive/coordination
3) not slipping in the water/improving his catch.

It really looks like he has no feel for the water, no ‘grip’ on his stroke, and no power on his stroke.

He should be doing ~1000 yards of drill work and scull work every swim. He doesn’t need to know his lactate numbers when he has worse technique than some of my water polo players.

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http://www.savagesentiments.blogspot.com/
http://www.tricoachmartin.com/
https://www.facebook.com/teameverymanjack

I think one of the tough things that happens in an athletes situation like LS, is that there is so much “pressure” that every swim seemingly turns into a referendum. Throwing away the stop watch for 1-3 months in a case like LS is likely to be more beneficial because it takes the likely biggest pressure point out of the picture. Of course there is a point when you will use the clock to note improvement etc, but I hope he gets “play swims” in the training where he just goes to the pool 1 time a week and just swims. Maybe he works on his streamline, maybe it’s a flip turn or does kick/scull. But a swim where he can just go do anything in the water that he feels the need to do.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

The issue for Lionel is he 100% should not be allowed to do what he feels for the swim. This is not running or biking where you can go do a workout and largely have it be beneficial no matter what. He needs someone on deck who is constantly focused on his technique. Every drill and every lap has a purpose until it is good. Then he can go for an easy swim of his choice. But he should not be deciding what to work on until his technique is better.

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http://www.savagesentiments.blogspot.com/
http://www.tricoachmartin.com/
https://www.facebook.com/teameverymanjack

I think we'll agree to disagree, if a swimmer in LS's situation is going to be doing 10 swims a week, having 1 30 min session that is "just go to the pool" and play likely is as beneficial for that 1 time a week than being told every second of every swim what to do for the next 3 months. There's an important "fun" aspect of this that has to be taken into consideration when talking about an developmental pathway.

Again this "play" swim is basically the anti workout workout. It's not designed to have LS self coach himself in that workout. It's basically a set to go float, scull for 25 and stop and sit on the wall and just "be" in the pool. Go be goofy and dive in the water, see how far you can streamline off the wall with no kick, etc. It's not designed as a "workout", it's designed as a sneaky way to just be one with the water in a low key manner. Again it's the anti workout. It's the exact opposite of what you describe- needing 100% coached focus (which I'm agreement with you on that).


ETA: Obviously if you as an athlete are doing less than a half dozen swims a week, the "play" swim is sorta a waste of time. But if you truly are in a "swim focused" block where you are doing 4-5 doubles a week, the "play" swim is absolutely a must imo. Again it's the 1 "anti workout" a week that isn't an indictment on your ability that every other swim set is in that crucial time period.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

This brings up an interesting point. I didn't start competitive swimming until I was 13/14 years old, but prior to that I was "always" in the water. Summertime I practically lived on the beach (growing up in Bermuda the beach was a 10 minute walk from our house). Just playing, body surfing, chasing fish. I think that had a lot to do with developing a feel for the water.

even when I began competitive swimming, my club did lots of "play" type activities. water polo, sharks & minnows / marco polo, all that stuff.

I never see triathletes do that. I get it, its kinda weird-looking for adults to be "playing", but we're grown men in speedos. We're weird anyway.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Funny thing about the "play" swim, and this was something I learned many years ago when working within the USAT Collegiate Recruitment Program (CRP) pipeline. USAT's answer to itu success was to find single sport athletes and turn them into triathletes. Generally you wanted a runner who had either god given natural talent to somehow get fast in the water as quick or possible or a runner who did 3 years of summer league swim in their youth. That athlete generally had a better success pathway than a D1 swimmer who could *only* run 16:12 5k pr. If you can't run sub ~14:10 5k, you ain't going to win a medal in itu. But generally as long as you can swim chase pack ability, generally race dynamics meant the front group and chase group would generally merge. Now with the development and specialization of the sport as it continues to mature (again we are only on the 7th Olympics for our sport; it's still a relatively "young" sport), taking a D1 single sport athlete and turning them into a world class itu athlete is generally harder and harder to do.

But that program has about an 8% success rate of taking an athlete to the WTCS level; of which the greatest success's of the likes GJ (gold medal), KZ (multiple world champion), Pearson (MTR medal winner); so there are far more failure stories for tons of reasons- burn out, lack of talent, lack of finaicial resources; and lastly they just want to get a job and be a regular card carrying member of society.

So we are talking about putting athletes through lots and lots of double swim workouts for months at a time; and then basically going for "skill" development on the Bike side and then sorta putting run training into maitenance mode. You'd take a fresh athlete in this, and they would be gung ho.....everyone wants to win a medal, everything thinks they are the one that will develop into world champion, etc.

What's funny about adding the play swim into those weekly workouts. Initially athletes would be so hesitant with "you mean I just go do whatever", they'd end up doing a mini 10 x 50 or X x 100's, and they'd say "coach I did 1700yd in that 30 mins"....They would be shocked when I would repy "swim less" next time. 3 months later when they were obviously getting better in the water, they'd be doing 1000 yards in 30 mins and would finally recognize the value in the "play" swim. It's the 1 workout a week where they get to turn off their brain and not worry about the "stress" that their athletic situation has them in.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Here's where triathlon is off in its thinking on training and swimming can be blamed for this too, although it is starting to change in the swim:

If you think the "metabolics" for swimming are the primary thing to be measuring, quantifying and trying to impact, you are on the wrong path. Lactate, aerobic capacity, anaerobic capacity are all byproducts of what you are actually training. Let me say it again - they are BYPRODUCTS of what you are primarily training.

The biggest limiter for professionals who are trying to get closer to the front pack is not about steady pacing or dropping 2 seconds per 100m off their overall time. It's about speed and efficiency. The race is determined by the opening 400-600m. The pace is much faster than what the average pace of the swim will be. For instance, the first 100m at Kona has traditionally been about 1:11. To normalize that to figure out how you would need to train, it's an open water start - minus 2-3 seconds. It's open water (no turn) - minus 1-2 seconds. That gives us anywhere from 3-5 seconds, so call it 1:06-1:08 for the first 100m. The conversion to a yards pool would be :59-1:01. What does that mean? Unless you can swim in the range of 54-55 or better for a 100 yard swim or 1:01-1:03 100m you won't be able to swim 1:06-1:08/:59-1:01 without that being a completely all out effort. If that first 100 at that pace is an all out effort, you are done and that doesn't count the next 300 - 500m that is at a very hard pace or the surge that will come at the turn or the surge in the last 400m. You have to be trained for all of that. I've seen athletes who were with the 2nd group get dropped 800m from the finish and lose 3+ minutes to the 2nd group in that 800m.


Swimming is notorious for over-training. It is the perfect sport for it. It takes a lot to get injured and shut down the training. It is part of the reason I'm so aware of it in triathlon. I read studies/journal articles all the time. I try to stay up on what other people are thinking. But if you have a thesis talking about lacking "base training," I'm assuming they mean building an "aerobic base," I wouldn't even read that thesis. They don't even know what the fundamental component of fast, efficient swimming is or how to train it.

Thanks for the great questions and you have any other please let me know.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

I share with athletes on this forum all the time and a lot more than anyone else. I just a posted a video analysis of an athlete who posted his swim video asking help. I answered all of his follow up questions at zero cost.



Do I pick and choose what information and when I'm going to share it - absolutely.

I'm not going to talk about pros who I worked with or work with in any specificity. In terms of former athletes, I used to hold a swim meet at the end of the camp I put on for professionals. We did a 500 free, a 100 free and a 200 free relay. Not every pro posts on social media.

I've given a lot more specific recommendations than "swim more." I'm sorry that what I have given doesn't rise up to your standards for free advice, but you also need to remember I'm not here posting for you to meet your specific needs.

I hope this helps and Happy Thanksgiving,

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com