I don’t necessarily think it matters what the front group is or isn’t doing with regards to LS. I mean no duh it matters in that the gap has to be overcome and if suddenly only front pack won every single podium then that would be the new line in sand, but I don’t know if it’s that just yet. However I think he has to basically get to a real chase pack ability and then go from there. So whether the front group puts the jets on or not is almost inconsequential to where LS needs to get too.

Whether the front group improves the gap or not, the chase pack is pretty much on full chase mode coming out of water. Which is why it’s important to be on said wheels and obviously even more important if the front group gap only increases. I also don't think it's the gap that is the issue but number of people within said gap. At some point the front group will only go so fast, but it's the people who can fill the gaps or make each group that is important. Now more than ever we are seeing an increase in the swim ability of many more athletes that suddenly the "uber" biker isn't even a thing anymore.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Just watching the video posted earlier in this thread and knowing Lionel's hour record cycling ability, it seems clear to me, that he's just killing himself before T1 and even though his bike is strong it is not hour record strong, because he is just dragging his hips and legs and depleting all kinds of glycogen in his legs by having to kick so hard. Even if his gap is what it is, he could get to T1 being less gassed with better overall body (hip position) and then he could actually bike to his real bike abilities which are in line with many pro cyclists in the 1 hrs on the track and have a chance of closing up quickly.

Look at Sebi. He got to exactly what you are saying. Just close enough to use his bike and not so gassed that he can use it consistently (like EVERY RACE)

When training for triathlon Lionel is not at pro cyclist power levels.

If he trained exclusively for the bike, he could close the gap, but there is a gap.

How does he fix this though? Body position is so fundamental and so difficult to change. Not trying to be a negative nancy, just actually curious because having a high and flat body position is such a huge benefit and there's some very fast experienced swimmers on this thread.

I don't know that he can. Physically that is...

I haven't watched him swim in quite a while, but the last time I did it appeared that he didn't have the shoulder mobility to get his arm out front enough. That is the most important thing to get legs and hips up, being long out front.

I developed that mobility pretty young, I don't think I could make meaningful changes now, not without hurting myself anyway. I think most competitive swimmers are similar, my unsupported hypoothesis is that swimming at a young age (I think) takes that natural flexibility we have when we are really young and preserves it, in a way. Developing that mobility later in life is hard.

for example, I haven't been into the water for a few years now (life took over and no time to train, although I did restart Zwift last week, so there's some hope). but I can easily lock my elbows behind my head in a hyperstreamline position. I swam with a few guys at masters who didn't start swimming until they were in their 20's, none of them could. (in fairness, some ex swimmers couldn't either, due to various injuries).

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I have two kids. One is a swimmer. He just turned 13 but to the extent that he can be considered very good: he was first in the country in 6 events, top 10 in US history in 3 and top 20 in 2 more events. 2:01 in the 200m free at age 12.

When both kids were young I put them on their back and had them get in streamline position. I would move them back and forth and then push them down the pool. With him it was effortless. I could let go and he would keep gliding. Daughters was a very decent swimmer but everything he did he was a hundred times better.

I think you are a little too negative :) but I think you are, on balance, right. So much is innate. Heck, Lionel can do things out of thepool that none of dream of. What, does he choose not to work hard only in the pool?!?

Assuming this is not a rhetorical question, the not really talented swimmers wanted to improve, to be fast swimmers. They enjoyed being in the water and pushing themselves every day. They wanted to swim in college, maybe D1 but potentially also a good D2 or D3 team. No way the not-so-talented but hard working guys will become pro swimmers though, as virtually all pro swimmers are very talented.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Not for LS specifically, but I feel most people dragging hips and legs are looking up toward the wall (of a pool) instead of down at black line. Think about how you walk. Head in line with spine looking forward. When horizontal in a pool in that natural posture you would be looking down at a black line. If you look up and ahead at the wall at the other end, that would be the equivalent of looking straight up if standing on dry land. If you do that right now you’ll notice your hips push a bit forward…think about how that is magnified in water when your feet aren’t planted on anything helping to keep you more in line.

I'm not berating anyone. Context is king. On the one hand, you have athletes with goals of closing the gap to the front of the race or making the front pack and expecting to do it on "10k a week." When the athletes who are in the front pack did not get there on anywhere near "10k a week." As a swim coach for triathletes, a big part of the job is to get triathletes to understand the actual demands of their stated goals. That requires context of what elite level swimmers did to become elite level swimmers. It's the reason there are "national motivational time standards" to provide context. The best pro triathletes don't have to perform anywhere near elite level swim standards. But they still have to put in the work. If you are a pro who wants to be competitive, but aren't a natural in the water, you're going to have put in more work.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

That 7-yr progress is amazing!!! Clearly he really, really, REALLY wanted to be top tier ITU competitor. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

(Hey you're back!)

I kind of agree with you - I just see the guy as too muscle bound and not flexible enough to make the gains he wants in the pool.

Mobility is key - ability to be strong but supple, etc. You fight the pool, the pool will fight you right back.

Whether you're an AOS or not, water feel is innate and at some level cannot be taught. I think it can be overcome to some extent, but at the end of the day, if you can't get into position and can't feel you're out of position, there's a limit.

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I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html

Brooks - Thanks for telling us about USAT's current protocol for selecting athletes to develop in their program. For top swimmers, would they give them 3 weeks to train up for say a 5K on the track test???

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

To simply swim as fast as you can. It's the relentless pursuit of your best possible race for its own sake and not any outside reward. That's what keeps an athlete going and gives them the ability to transcend any physical limiters they might have. Any glory, reward, payment those don't keep you going in the very hard moments.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

VERY well said. We think alike. I believe this is one of the best swimming threads I've read in a long time. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Tim, I admire the heck out of you. As one of the best swimming coaches in the country and definitely one of the very best OWS coaches, your willingness to submit yourself to the critique of the "unwashed masses" is remarkable.

I doubt there is anyone in the country that more pros have gone to in search of improved swimming, but yet the folks on Slowtwitch always know better.

I am not sure how you stay patient.

Thank you. I appreciate that.

The reason I come on here is for the athlete who genuinely wants to learn. Those athletes are on here and I'm more than happy to give them as much time as they need to get a better understanding of the pathway forward.

The criticism doesn't bother me. It's worthwhile. When it's valid, I take it in and think if there is a better way to say or argue the point I'm trying to make. The interactions help me too. It also give me a better idea of the ideas on swimming that are influencing the community.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Yes and no. Collegiate swimmers will have a different pathway than runners will. It truly is a waste of time if your a 14 min 5k but the best 100 time you have in the pool is 1:48. That timeline and demands are just likely too much. Now you can go prove the coaches wrong but for all intent purposes if you can’t swim decent enough you’re too much of a project. A coach like myself would be ideal to work with them to get them competent and then if they truly made it go into a “world class” training squad.

Swimmers though will have a little bit different pathway because at itu a swimmer is already going to be at the front of the race for 2/3rd of the event. So their time table will be extended out longer.

That’s what we are looking for world class runners who swam from ages 9-14 and then only ran, Of course at this point in the game, for itu you basically need to be a triathlete in junior pipeline. This single sport to itu success is all but out for men and is greatly phased out for women.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

good to be back.

One of my earliest coaches said to us "don't fight the water. It's bigger than you, and doesn't get tired"

I probably won't post all that much, but I'm bored / procrastinating at work. I didn't read the whole thread, just kinda skimmed it, but my pet peeve has raised its head again. So...

Can I go on my rant about how irrelevant discussions of talent are to AG triathetes now?

Lionel has zero swim talent. He's not built for it, he didn't develop it. His abilities, as they are, are purely down to bullheadedness and a willingness to work.

He is faster in the water than most AG triathletes. He sucks compared to his pro cohort, but he's well above average swim ability for a triathlete. Talent matters at the elite level. absolutely, because at that level, there simply isn't a very big room for everyone. Talent matters not one bit if you're a regular AGer trying to improve. It isn't worth thinking about or considering in your training, at all. If I were a coach, and someone came to me talking about how they have / don't have talent for... well, anything.... my response will always be 1) how do you know? followed by 2) I don't care.

Figure out what your limiters are. work on those. If you aren't improving, and are putting in the work, then you haven't figured out the limiters. could be flexibility, could be power, could be things like time & energy. or recovery. Not many of us really ever get to our full potential. Most of us don't really want to, it means a lot of sacrifices that you may not want to make.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Oh, you would care a LOT as a coach for talent in terms of setting goals, even you know that.

If a perennial BOP swimmer who's putting in the 7-10k/wk and occasional masters for years (might be an older athlete) comes to you and says, "make me a 1:20/100 FOP swimmer for my next IM in 6 months", you'd say fuggetabout it. Heck, you would probably say that even if he said make me a 1:45/100 swimmer in 6 months if he's realistically plateaud despite trying for years.

It's a total copout for the coach to say 'trust me - work hard, you'll get faster', in my opinion. While it may be true, let's be honest - a ny friggin idiot could just say 'just swim 10-15% more than you do now, consistently', and yes, you'd swim a tiny % faster, like <0.3sec/100, but you'd 'be faster. But you'd still finish the race in the exact same spot.

The coach is there to make you MEANINGFULLY faster, within a realistic schedule, and realistic amounts of work you are willing to put in APPROPRIATE TO YOUR LEVEL. Yes, this includes talent, which is rate of improvement. They also help find the limiter, but if the limiter is something that's hard to overcome, like a lot more time needed training (most AG MOP swimmers fall in this category), it's going to be tough going no matter what the workouts are.

It's absolutely true that most AGers never come close to their talent ceiling as pro might, but their rate of improvement is absolutely dictated by their talent, and a coach needs to have either enough experience to see it, or pay close enough attention to measure it to be a good coach.

An AG athlete is no where close to training to the level that “talent” is then the factor. Availability is likely the biggest limiter for the AG athlete.

So many variables that make swim training hard to train up properly for. Talent is 8th in the list of limiters and not worth discussing for many AG athletes.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Wow

Wow

Wow

Seriously so very impressive

Thank you Tim for all you do

Really appreciate it

Your son is very fast. I'm curious how tall he was just before he turned 13?

no. no I really wouldn;t care.

why? because I wouldn't entertain goals like that. hard number goals are a pretty terrible way to actually set the goals. They can be useful metrics, but better goals are around process.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

As I've said ad nauseum - talent + training dictates rate of improvement.

You need both. Even you know that.

You and Jason are both misrepresenting what I'm saying. You seem to think I'm saying because AGers don't train maximal hours, they have no problems with a talent limiter. That is NOT what I'm saying.

I'm saying that AGers by definition pretty much always have a time limiter in training - that's why they're not pros. If you can only swim 7k per week, max, due to scheduling and life demands, that amount of improvement and level of performance you get is going to be heavily dependent on your response to such low training. Which is literally the definition of TALENT.

Every time you discuss a target goal with your athlete, you are having a discussion that's depends on the work they put in, and their talent (intrinsic response to training.) You might not say the word talent, but when you tell that perennial 2:00/100 swimmer that they did a great job by becoming a 1:55/100 swimmer with their hard work, you're making a statement about their talent level and including it directly in your assessment.

Just because AGers don't come close to maxxing their potential, doesn't mean they're not already limited by their intrinsic ability. I know you know this. Kid competitive swim coaches and even the kids themselves know this as they self-weed themselves out of increasingly harder levels of swimming if they're not keeping up -they definitely do NOT have to max their training hours to learn this - they can see it just from their lanemates who might do the exact same work they do, but blow them away every time.

Where I’ll simply disagree is the importance of talent. When you’re talking about athletes who are likely limited in training no offense I don’t want to hear that “talent” is your limiter. that’s not even in the discussion imo.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II