Yeah, but 'kids who got real good at swimming' is like eons away from pro-triathlon elite level, or A-level age group swimming.

As said ad nauseum above NOBODY said LS has no talent - he's a supertalent in bike-run for sure.

But what I'm pointing out is that he might not have the talent IN SWIMMING equal to that of the front/first pack pro triathlon swimmers whom he is trying to catch. And nowadays, that front swim pack is pretty freaking fast and talented, way more than it was just a few years ago.

D1 teams are allowed 9.9 scholarships divided out among roughly ~30 athletes on a team, give or take.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I am not sure I really understand that. It’s not like three cups of coffee and they forgot to pour coffee talents in to the swim cup but you get beautiful coffee in the bike and run mug ??

I don't see anyone on these forums saying a 2:35 marathon at the end of an Ironman is weak, just because Kipchoge and compatriots are dropping standalone marathons over a half hour faster. In fact, everyone is pretty amazed at that 2:35, we're not saying he left tons on the table because world-class runners are going 2:01-2:05. But that seems to be exactly what you say we should be doing.

There are few guys, including a top-AGer who was featured on ST headlines, who have run like 2:10-15sh standalone marathons in their pure running days, but none of them are running sub 2:35 for IM. It's just a different challenge with the three sports.

I mean, Sam Long is arguably one of the top runners in long-course triathlon, and he says straight up he can barely hold sub-5 minute miles for a few laps, whereas the Kenyans are running that pace for 26 friggin' 'miles. There's no way Sam Long is just 'not putting things in context.'

If I'm hearing you right, you seem to think if you have gobs of talent in the run or bike, you gotta have similar talent in swimming. Because they're all endurance based sports.

That would be completely wrong, but again, I could be misreading your cryptic analogy.

I’m willing to bet a testicle that the front pack and swimmers just below that level have swam way more and swam in a fresher state than Lionel has. Vincent Luis would have swam Lionel’s life time swim mileage 10 times over

Forgive the inaccuracy. 100 times over

It’s an incredible theory isn’t it. Like that the earth is round :)

It’s not a sport specific talent. I am just talking about someone with good general athleticism, sense of body, well roundedness. The sky does not fall down if someone suggests that they should be good at lots of different sports, if time and opportunities presented

But like I said ls isn’t that because he has never won Kona so he has bad sporting genetics

Even if that's true (which I suspect it is), Lionel can't even keep up with the not-quite first pack pro-triathletes who almost certainly swim similar amounts as he does. LS isn't exactly a low-volume swim guy. He's not a big volume swim guy, but he's not swimming a ton less than all the guys who are beating him.

Likewise, LS is not beating all the guys he's crushing on the bike because he's simply out-training all of them volume-wise. Nor is he outrunning them because of his superior run volume. If anything, it sounds like he trained less volume than a lot of the guys he's crushing on the bike-run.

But sure, you keep telling me that the reason LS dominates the bike-run isn't his natural talent, but that he out-trains everyone out there, but somehow can't out-train everyone else on the swim despite him constantly telling us and the world that he ABSOLUTELY HAS to get better at swimming.

Don’t worry, it’s true

My theory - Life time volume on the swim, LS is a micro volume guy 😊

Life time volume on the bike and run, he’s done his time

  


Ok, I was actually right. I'm actually stunned you think that having talent in running = similar talent in swimming.

I think everyone on this thread and forum, in fact, knows this isn't the case. If you think it's true, I can't help you there. That's so misguided that it's pointless to even startr debating it.

Perhaps, it’s because most people start organized running in their teens or later, and cycling starts even later for most people, so the footing is equal for those sports for most. Swimming at a young age makes it hard for non youth swimmers to comprehend. I imagine there are very, very few adults onset swimmers who become successful pro triathletes (is there actually anyone else right now besides Lionel?) versus the typical pro growing up a swimmer OR having multiple youth swimming years experience.

It wouldn’t surprise me if a youth male swimmer that achieved a BB level swimmer during ages 10-12 (a level that beats only 65% of competitive swimmers their age and loses to 35% of swimmers their age) and then didn’t step a single foot back into a pool for 20 years, but remained somewhat fit, could swim faster in their 30s after just several weeks of training, including swimming faster than Lionel in a 50 and 100 free. They would likely swim times even faster than when they were 12, now that they are taller and have gone through puberty. This isn’t said to be negative towards Lionel, but putting perspective what several years of youth swimming can do to a future triathlon career/hobby.

I’m not asking for help I’m just saying to you the theory. But Time and opportunities are also relevant to how someone’s innate physical abilities can show up.

You reckon Usain Bolt would not have made a decent swimmer ?

Matt McElroy who races ITU for the US is likely the best "success" story I've ever seen from an basic AOS to pro level. LS has better best results, but they are pretty similiar overall within their pro careers. Matt's 1st ever swim stroke at what 22 years old you'd have never guessed he'd make it in ITU.

Funny note on Matt, he was a stud runner (I believe sub 14 5k PR), who made NCAA track champs. Swam 5k yards 10 hours before going on the track and earning all american status; he was "all in" on tri before he finished his last year of NCAA running.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I don't think it's the volume or early start in swimming. I used to think that but after seeing the ringer that competitive youth swimmers go through to stay at it, I'm convinced the talent factor is the overriding one. If you've done competitive youth swimming for more than a trivial period, like a couple years, you were a pretty good swimmer compared to your peers, likely exceptionally good compared to 'normal people.

THAT is the reason why an ex-comp youth swimmer can swim like zero and outswim guys and girls who are actively working hard.

Look at the Belgian Beavis and Butthead guys. One of them was a national-class youth swimmer before he quit. He goes and drops like a 1:08 100 with zero swim training and zero fitness (as confirmed by his sky-high lactate on dirt slow distance paces in the same video). I can't even drop a 1:08/100, period. Similarly, his brother who is totally out of shape to start and does not have that stellar swimming pedigree, jumps in the pool and is doing distance work as fast as I am when I'm swimming 10k/wk - immediately.

Even the casual video race of Lionel vs his cameraman (who apparently swam club or something like that up to age like 12 or 13) - he's neck and neck with Lionel, for sure it's not a pro vs amateur blowout.

I do think learning motor motions in youth does help ingrain it better as an adult, but it's not the main reason ex-comp-youth swimmers are crushing adult-onset swimmers in triathlon - the gap is way too big. It's mainly the selection process.

Also, look at cycling - most people don't start cycling until they're adults. Especially in triathlon. Even LS himself - he never raced bikes until he was doing triathlon - and he got really good, really fast. (To be fair, there's a lot more overlap of running and biking training, but still - he's didn't become a bike monster because he started the bike at age 4 and trained like 10,000+ hours by the time he was 10.)

Yeah his is a great story. Paulo also worked with Jason Pedersen and had him doing 50km weeks in the pool. Think he had some really nice results. Source. Podcast with Matt McElroy I heard

I like that story above, super impressive. I should have been thinking more… many of the best swimmers are natural born swimmers, that take to water like a fish, at almost whatever age they started. Obviously, most start young, but there are occasional outliers. Olympian Gary Hall Jr, was a ten time Olympic medalist. His Father used to post on ST, and Jr started swimming at age 15. His swimming genes are unbelievably impressive. It didn’t hurt that he was also 6 feet 6 inches. So perhaps, not adult, but demonstrating a bit of an age outlier.

His father, Gary Hall Sr., also competed in three Olympics as a swimmer (1968, 1972, and 1976). His maternal uncle, Charles Keating III, swam in the 1976 Olympics, and his maternal grandfather, Charles Keating Jr., was a national swimming champion in the 1940s.

I'd give Usain bolt the same likelihood of being a top swimmer as compared to picking literally anyone random from the world. Ok, I'll give him a slight edge because he obviously has inborn mindset appropriate for a serious competitive racing athlete, but if we're talking more physical characteristics, aside from his height, I'd be surprised and impressed if he could get really good at swimming. It's possible, but statistically unlikely.

There are a few pro triathletes who are adult-onset and becamse really good pro tri swimmers, but they're few. Like so few I can't even name them. (Bdoughtie posted of one who I don't know of I think just now.)

A lot more overlap between run-bike talent, though, but still, at the top-pro-tri level, it's far from guaranteed that if you're tops in one, you'll be tops in the other. (But you likely won't be trash in one if you're really good at the other.)

I just really, really, hate the literal gaslighting that some swimmers like to repeatedly do, which is attributing success in their sport, all to hard work and dedication, and implying that it's possible for everyone to get really friggin' good, or at least as good as a good teenage competitive swimmer just by dint of hard work, no special talent required.

(Note I don't think you need special talent to win your AG in non-national-class triathlons; at middling amateur levels like the ones a lot of us compete in, we're leaving so much on the table that the formula is literally work hard = win your AG for the large majority of the time.)

Matt actually has a video on his IG social that shows his progress over the years. It's really cool just to see how "bad" he was to how good he's gotten and he's *only* chase pack swimmer in itu....But for the most part chase pack swim in itu means your likely close to getting to front by T2. That imo is LS's biggest issue. There are more people "filling the gaps" between the front group and his swim ability that when they get on the bike, the groups are all working together against the "uber" biker that LS is/was and thus he's not really biking through any of those groups anymore. It's not a huge improvement he needs, but it's likely the hardest improvement he'll ever have to work for; that last 1% sometimes can just be a mountain too hard to overcome.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Simon Shi was a D1 swimmer at, I *think*, Virginia Tech. He doesn’t dominate the swim in the races he does. There is also Rachel Zilinkis, who was a quality D1 swimmer and is at the very front of the races she does, but not overwhelmingly dominant (obviously Lucy was much faster at Kona). I’m not sure what Tim has in mind when he says that the FOP pro triathletes are not close to elite, but my impression is that many of them could do reasonably well at D1 swimming, or at least participate at that level.

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Dimond Bikes Superfan

B_Doughtie wrote:

Matt McElroy who races ITU for the US is likely the best "success" story I've ever seen from an basic AOS to pro level. LS has better best results, but they are pretty similiar overall within their pro careers. Matt's 1st ever swim stroke at what 22 years old you'd have never guessed he'd make it in ITU.

Funny note on Matt, he was a stud runner (I believe sub 14 5k PR), who made NCAA track champs. Swam 5k yards 10 hours before going on the track and earning all american status; he was "all in" on tri before he finished his last year of NCAA running.