It's not smart to read too much into this. The thing I'd say is Sam and Lionel looked better. More aligned and he didn't check the weather as badly as I've seen it in the past (checking the weather = two eyes out of the water on the breath. ).

The only way to make an assessment is to know what they did the day, week (morning) of this race. If this was thrown into the schedule for fun, with no "meet" preparation or anything like that, I think those are good results. And that seems very likely.

One other thing: we cannot really compare these guys to age group swimmers. Not just because they aren't focusing on the swim race the way a swimmer would, but they really don't know what they are doing. Their streamlines off the wall are "interesting", their starts are even worse, and their ankle mobility is nonexistent. I cannot believe they went as fast as the did! They would easily drop time focusing on those things. Do some form of 600/800 yard sets 3 times per week with fins, lots dolphin kicks off the wall and I think they go 15-20 seconds faster in just a few weeks. Does it make sense to do that? Maybe so, but I'm pretty sure they are not - and would be if they were swimmers - so I don't like the comparisons.

These are good questioned but I've answered them ad nauseum in prior posts. All the coaches were qualified. The last one taught at the Santa Clara International Swim center, where I had my video analysis, and he also coached the competitive squad, so definitely qualified.

I think the EVF probably requires everything. I mean, LS and SL both have stability, strength, and speed, but they're EVF looks suboptimal. And look at that video I posted - both dude's shoulders are as high or higher than his ears when he's demonstrating his stroke in a standing position on land!

But back to the thread, obviously LS's issue isn't lack of swim coaching at this point. It's not like he's been inadequately coached and is thus missing some key technical aspect that a good coach would have pointed out and he'd get a quick speed boost. In fact, I'd argue he's been coached just as far as about he can realistically go at this point given the impressive effort and commitment he's put into swimming. (And yes, he's improved a lot from his early tri years!)

I haven't spent that much time going over your posts. The only thing I know is you keep posting that swim improvement or lack thereof is all about talent and thinking that you and everyone else who can't improve in the swim is because of talent. It isn't. Triathletes get nowhere near the edge of their ability levels yourself included.

The reasons athletes can't get to a "high elbow catch" is because they lack stability, strength and speed which would include Sam and Lionel from their videos of their swim recently posted. The one thing that you can see from both their videos is they look tired, they look low in the water and it looks like their hips are "locked" and can't move with their shoulders. In my experience, this is from being under-recovered in the bike and run. It's going to be tough to make an improvement in the swim with large volume of bike and run training and/or racing.

I just ran a camp for a group of pro triathletes and told all of them that if they wanted to be competitive and didn't come from a swim background then they would have to make the swim the priority. My best guess is you'd need, depending on where you start, 18 months of a focused 35-40k a week with an amount of bike and run volume that allows you to continue to improve in the swim. The swim is getting fast enough where you can't do 15k-20k a week with 20+ hours of bike/run volume and expect to be competitive at a championship level.

Lionel's issue at this point isn't a lack of coaching or good coaching it's quality time in the water.

I hope this helps,

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
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Just my opinion, but I'm skeptical that even if LS and SL focused on swim and swam 40k per week while slightly dialing back run/bike, that they'd improve enough to make a meaningful difference in their race. I think they'd get a few seconds here and there, but not enough to jump in with the big boys who were clearly talented in their younger days, which seems to be a lot if not nearly all of the up and comers who aren't no-swim background folks anymore, and many/most of whom were already known as really good youth swimmers prior to tri. Of couse, there are and will be exceptions (US McElroy, or something like that? swam 40k starting as an adult and now swims ITU capably) but they're the exception rather than the norm.

Good thing you're not a coach because no one improves with a fixed mindset.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
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Hah you couldn't be more wrong about me. I grind it out BECAUSE I don't have a fixed mindset. But I'm also realistic - after yeras of this, you're going to hit massively diminishing returns. Which is exactly what LS and SL are running into. I'm nowhere near as good as them so I def have more on the table, but given my 15-20k/wk training load, it's about as good as it's going to get with the bike-run that I'm also doing. That's not defeatist, its just realistic. Doesn't mean I dont try and eke out every gain out of every stroke, and I mix it up regularly to make sure I'm not in a training rut.

I just don't conflate make small, sometimes miniscule gains, vs race-changing gains. And yes, I'm aware that all the miniscule gains CAN add up to a big one. I'm unfortunately still betting against that happening in the seasoned case of LS and less so in the case of SL. I do hope I'm wrong, but clearly other really good swim coaches haven't been able to help him make that jump, so it seems more likely than not that this will be the case for them.

But back to the thread, obviously LS's issue isn't lack of swim coaching at this point.

______

I actually think it is though. Pro swimmers literally are coached every single day of their life the same as a soccer or baseball or football player. Only in triathlon is this idea that you can get coached virtually or do training sessions "non coached" (I get why it's like that, a lot of training you can actually do virtually; but not swimming if you need the oversight, you can't fake that). So yeah I don't actually know if he's taken the time and investment to actually get daily good swim coaching. I think there is a HUGE difference in daily on deck coaching and getting "check in" swims with your swim guru even if it's weekly updates. That's not good enough when you have imo glaring weaknesses.

@LH- The issue with LS is that the small gains may be all he needs in order to get to that guranteed 2nd chase pack. He imo isn't really looking at a massive gains here with this, but he doesn't need that. But what he is looking at- mandatory gains or else. That's his reality- if he continues to miss the key "chase" pack, his races in the big boy events are pretty much fighting upstream.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Yeah plus they'll both be faster with wetsuits on. These seem like solid enough times for both of them. ~1:12/100y. I wonder how much time Sam's faster opening 100 cost him later in the race & I wonder if Lionel purposefully locked into a consistent pace from the start. In a 70.3 Sam's opening 100 could very well have him on the right feet & put him ahead of Lionel if he's starting more conservatively.

Do you actually swim 20 k per week? Why? Unless you are at these guys level or higher, I really think most of us regardless of talent could get away with 6-10 k and still be in ~22 min 1500 LCM shape. Quality over quantity is a better. mindset.

Yeah, not all year, but I swam 18-20k/wk for most weeks since Jan, and have done similar blocks last year and the year before. Ya know, because I have to try everything before I just 'give up since some people around here keep wanting to tag me as the 'giving up guy' LOL.

I actually am nearly certain now that I've done it that I'd get very similar results in the swim portion of the triathlon just by swimming 7k/wk, hard. But not only have I come to enjoy swimming, but I'm leaning into relying on it to boost hi-end aerobic fitness and overall aerobic fitness (a la Purplepatch's Matt Dixon on his podcasts) since it's an injury free way to get that intensity and cardio, which at my middle age, is really important to avoid injuries. (Which I seem to be getting in increasing frequency after going really hard on race day in the run.)

I also honestly believe that even if my swim split itself doesn't get a lot better with all that swimming, it's leaving me with a stronger bike and run with that deeper swim background. At least for sure, my USAT scores are way better swimming north of 12k/wk than when I was doing it on 7k/wk even if my swim splits are only like 1-2 mins faster in Olys (really closer to 1min).

And LS didn't wear the form goggles so good pacing by him it looks like.

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DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

And LS didn't wear the form goggles so good pacing by him it looks like. //

Dont believe they are allowed in swim meets. And having his last 100 as his fastest is most likely a good sign that he went out super easy and controlled. Like many have said, really need context before drawing any conclusions. But watching the Sam video, seems like it was his goal to hit 20 minutes, so he was right there.


And to whoever said that race jammers are worth 3 seconds a 100, maybe against board shorts, but perhaps a 1/2 second from other race style legal wear. The full compression full suits of the suit era were only worth about a second a 100 for most of the pro guys, some a little more, some a little less. So taking away 2/3 of that fabric and compression is certainly gonna make it much less of an advantage...


It's possible that race jammers give some 2+ minute per 100m folks 3 seconds, but these guys are not that...

For bigger or slightly chubbier masters swimmers a super tight full suit did maybe 2 seconds per 100. What do you think? The open water suit does about that now from what I can gather

Doesn't make sense that tech suits cost AU $1200 if they only make 1/2s difference? Are parents really paying that for their kids for 0.5s of an improvement? And these suits don't last long. Maybe it's different for us gumby athletes. My openwater suit feels incredible, superquick and my swimskin , not as quick, but also feels great in the water. 1/2s over 100m is 1/4s over 50m so in other words negligible. In theory you would put it on and feel no different and swim no different. And if a $1200 tech-suit gives you 1/4s over 50m, what does a $300 tech-suit give you 1/8s? GTN did a bathers v swimskin and Fraser had only a 3s gain with wearing a swimskin. That's not even 0.5s per 50m...If that's the benefit of wearing a swimskin why would anyone bother paying $400 for a swimskin?

Were the 6 sec gains over 400m or??? In what distance pool or in OW??? I've swum in a long john wettie, and of course in just a Speedo brief, but never in a swimskin so I am genuinely curious. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

From GTN - that was in a 50m pool, 400m. My arena OWS suit is amazing. Takes 20mins to put on and costs $500 but feels very different in the water. I think I held 1.35min/100m pace for 10k in that suit, 2h.39. Not a chance I'd come anywhere close to that in bathers. A recent sprint I ended up wearing my swimskin even though wetsuit legal and was 21/256 in the swim. For me wettie is faster, but swimskin not far off and in this race run to t1 was longer so reckon swimskin was good call. But if you look at the data and tests online, apparently you save 5/6s wearing a swimskin and it takes 4-5s to take it off? $400 to save 1s? Why bother?

So about 1.5 sec/100 m. I figured these skins must be worth 1 or 2 sec/100 m since all the top OW swimmers wear them in races. Thanks for the info!!!

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

6-10k/week seems low for a 22min 1500 if you don't have a swimming background. If you grew up swimming & have gone well under that then, sure, I would expect that to be enough maintenance to be able to get it done. If you're a few years in & you're swimming 2-3 times/week with that volume I doubt 22min would come naturally.

6k/week ok I agree... that is pushing it and maybe it only works for those of us who have been several minutes below a 22 min 1500 LCM at some point in our lives.

10k/week, I disagree, I know plenty of adult onset swimmers on 21-22 minute shape (56-63 min IM swims). 2 x 4k high quality swimming sessions plus a third 2 k swim. That is a lot of volume for most AGs.

20k/week, is 5 x 4 km/week sessions, 6 x 3-4 km/sessions. That is a ton of volume for a standalone masters swimmer, let alone an AG triathlete. I only know of juniors, pros and "AG-pros" in my area swimming those volumes. I also see the likes of Frederic Funk on Strava swimming that much.

Well are people cherry picking, and saying they swim 20km but they only do that in a three week period before an event?

When people say what the weekly volume is it tends to be exaggerated

20k is the amount and what many of the top masters level swimmers I know do. Maybe a bit more sometimes maybe a bit less. But they’re just always there abouts unless sick injured or travelling

That’s 3 or so endurance sessions some swimming some pull paddles, a sprint session and a threshold session

However others are more into the long distance marathon swims and do 10-15k more, during preparation periods. Mentally I think some of the former really good swimmers find that hard to do

Really if someone just raced masters sprints it is counter productive to swim that much and should be doing shorter faster and more strength

20k per week is easy to get on 6-7 swims per week. It’s a habit, I get up and hit the pool at 7, every day. If it’s off season I can go at lunch for a double especially if legs are dead from bike run.

But yes it’s no silver bullet. There are guys that beat the pants off me in the swim who only swim like 5 times before a race and that’s it all season. (They were good swimmers previously though)

Let me explain why swimming 6 to 8k a week is a very bad idea if you want to perform at a high level in a triathlon. One summer between my first and second year of medical school all I did was train, race and about 10 hours of lab work. I was consistently training 20k a week of swimming, 200 miles of biking, and 35-40 minutes of biking. I laid down some great results, including a 20 minute, 56min 40k, 34 min 10k results. After med school started up again, I became very busy and had no time to keep up my volume of training, but I had qualified for an invite race with free hotel etc so I decided to go anyway. My swimming consisted of about 3-6k for 6 or 7 weeks before the race, I ended up still swimming a 20 minute 1500, but I was so gassed from the effort that I biked 59 and ran 37 minutes, which was way below my ability at the time. You want to come out of the swim feeling "pretty" good, which requires a lot of volume for anyone but an ex elite swimmer who has millions of yards under their belt. You will never be able to bike or run to your ability without having great swim endurance.

This has been my experience also; you need to be able to feel like a 1500m swim is just a good warm-up for the B and R. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

This is all 100% relatable and a great take for an AG. Lionel is not reading AG tho. The penalty for an AG losing 5 mom on the swim is slingshotting through back markers until you reach the front. For a pro 5 min list in the swim probably means missing the lead pack and starting the run either 20 min or at a 20w higher average.

There's a reason pros focus so much on the swim. Those tactics don't apply when AG rules are in place.

I agree you need some volume ( more by time then distance as everyone swims different speeds, a beginner takes 50 min for 2 km top swimmer under 28 min, so a beginner at 8 km is a expert at 17 km) but you are comparing races and times which don't really tell a true story, the race courses and dynamics change , take out speed and course measures and environment.

but do you think if you swam that day 21 min you would have made up the 3 min on the bike and 3 minutes on the run and been 5 minutes ahead of the finish time ???

Did you lose total fitness or just the top swim speed and overload to early.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
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