Globally, however, any reports of coal’s death are premature. China, which consumes half the world’s coal, is key to the fuel’s outlook. Until very recently, coal use in China had been projected to increase continuously through at least 2040. That outlook is much bleaker today. But even if Chinese coal use may be plateauing, as some data sources suggest, it will face a long sunset, not a sharp decline. China is taking significant steps to reduce its choking air pollution, and in small industrial plants and residential boilers coal is being phased out. But for electricity and steel production, which account for four-fifths of China’s coal use, cleaning up the air predominantly means installing technology on existing coal plants rather than permanently closing a sizable portion of its coal power plants—and that technology does nothing to combat carbon pollution.

At the same time, India will become the world’s second largest coal consumer before the end of this decade, and is projected to more than double use through 2040. To put that in perspective, the new coal-fired capacity that India and other emerging Southeast Asian countries will build between now and 2040 is nearly double all the existing capacity in the U.S. today. Indian officials have given little reason to believe they will sharply change course. That is why a June 2015 study in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences warned of the climate risks posed by the current “coal renaissance” across much of developing Asia.

http://blogs.wsj.com/...coal-isnt-dead-yet/v

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Not talking about China or India as they will soon be the two world's worst polluters because of coal. All I'm saying is that Trump is telling a fib and giving false hope to people who voted for him over this.. Natural gas is cleaner and is more economically viable in North America.

The US exports coal and could export a great deal more.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Well that will be just great for the environment and global warming. Plus how it the USA going to compete against China or India in coal exporting when you consider labor costs? Do you think any American workers are nowadays willing to work in the pit for low wages?

This one hits a bit too close to home as my grandfather on my mom's side was a coal miner in Wales who died in his early 50's of occupational respiratory complications when I was a small kid. I'm sure he never aspired for his grandchildren to grow up to be coal miners.

"You can come right out of high school and make$70,000 a year," said Missy Perdue, 22, a stay-at-home mother whose husband, Jeff Perdue, Jr., 22, is a miner.Apr 7, 2010

Source

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#WeAreTheForge #BlackGunsMatter

"Look, will you guys at leats accept that you are a bunch of dumb asses and just trust me on this one? Please?" BarryP 7/30/2012

For a lot of folks in the certain states in the US, it's either this or dealing meth. I'm not saying coal is good or coal mining is palatable. But, there are segments of the population who rely on those jobs and there is the potential for some of it coming back.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

My point exactly. Thank you for proving it. How are you going to compete against labor costs in China or India if you're thinking exporting it. And then its almost a dead product on the domestic market. Coal generating plants can't compete against natural gas. . Donny is telling fibs.

Its tragic in some ways in the way that the world has changed. Previously prosperous areas in some cases are no longer so in just one generation. My wife grew up in a once prosperous auto plant town where the plant is now gone and the town is struggling. If we could have froze the world in the mid 1970's I'm sure we'd all be much happier, but we can't. Neither can Trump.

Why limit to coal. Trump and repubs are full of it on so many accounts....all seemed geared to benefit the 1%.

Sorry Canuckian but you may have to adjust your optimist appraisal. Literally two after the election coal shipments by rail went crazy, along with evil oil and fracking sand. A power plant near Detroit ordered 52 train loads of coal a month. That's 100+ railcars per train which I believe converts to 5trucks per railcar which is all going to being fired up shooting some coal dust your way. Enjoy.

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

I don't disagree, but I've made a case with coal that even the most ardent LR Trump ball washers can't really argue against.

Glad you know more than Yale. Where is your source? And 52 train loads a month is fuck all in the big picture.

They ain't to bright they supported a big league carny. I am still waiting for his charitable deductions from his tax returns to prove what a swell guy he is.

What do you have against carbon steel? Why do you dislike Hamilton? Pretty sure they vote liberal there so why the hate?

One of you two is off the mark, that's a fact.

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#WeAreTheForge #BlackGunsMatter

"Look, will you guys at leats accept that you are a bunch of dumb asses and just trust me on this one? Please?" BarryP 7/30/2012

Have you not ever been to Hamilton. LOL. Both the Defasco and Stelco plants aren't what they used to be and aren't coming back. But our Liberal PM at least isn't fibbing to the voters about that.

Guess you haven't even bothered to read the original posted url. But no big surprise there.

Now all we have to do is wait for Old Hickory to show up with his usual unrelated one liner.

High labour costs are a distraction, the real reason for jobs going overseas is directly related to the lack of enforcement of labour & environmental regulations. But hey, go ahead - keep blaming the worker if that's what it takes to stick to the party message.

Bull shit. Where have I blamed the worker? I generally support workers and strong unions in most cases. Its the Conservatives that you support that blame workers, not so much Liberals and less so NDP.

High labor costs is not simply a distraction but a genuine reason why its hard to compete against China/India. However, you are correct about lack of labour and environmental standards being another big issue. My best friend sells industrial chimney scrubbers to China and tells me that half the time they don't even turn them on, its more about saving face to say they have them.

Did you read the url?

The author of the article isn't from Yale. He's a professor at the West Virginia University College of Law.

Coal is definitely on the decline, but it's far from dead. Last year was the first time in the US that natural gas electricity production surpassed coal, partially due to the decrease in gas prices due to shale plays. However, as natural gas prices are expected to climb short term, coal is expected to regain some share. https://www.eia.gov/.../detail.php?id=29872

And with respect to exporting coal to China, that is also a possibility. In 2016, China imported 225.5 million tonnes. The US only exported 74 million tonnes (from a total production of ~ 600 million tonnes). Coal is a global commodity, it doesn't matter where it's from, the cost remains the same. Increased labour costs only decrease profits for the owners, it doesn't effect the price per tonne. Smaller profits are better than no profits.

Additionally, the majority of the coal mined in the US is from Wyoming due to it's low SO2 content. Unfortunately, it's also subbituminous which generates less BTU/lb than bituminous coal. However, the bituminous coal found on the east coast has high SO2 content. The high SO2 content increases the cost of the electricity produced from bituminous coal due to the extra scrubbing requirements. If the EPA loosens the emissions requirements, the bituminous coal becomes more lucrative. What are the environmental regulations like in China? How about India?

Don't get me wrong, I dislike Trump and hate coal. But coal will be with us for some time.

Thank you. That was quite informative. I never said coal is going away tomorrow but eventually it is or at least will decline greatly. My point was that Trump is selling false promises.

I sell industrial equipment for a living, are you telling me that it's normal to require pick up trucks to have an "environmentally approved" $150 drip pan placed under them as soon as they're parked due to the potential of an oil spill? Just remember, that parking lot at your local grocery store doesn't force everyday citizens to place a drip pan underneath their car which is just as likely to piss oil out on the parking lot.

Huh?? What does this have to do with anything on this thread? I've talked to my buddy in the USA who works very closely with the coal industry selling industrial chimney scrubbers. He tells me that they are doing virtually no business in the USA but a ton of business in Asia (China and India). All of which will be very bad for global warming. He tells me the reason they don't sell in the USA is that coal can't compete with natural gas.

I live about a half mile from a railroad track. Numerous mile long coal trains pass by every day and this has been going on as long as I've lived here...more than 35 years. One of our main power plants here uses coal and it's not scheduled to be decommissioned for another 15-20 years at the earliest. I don't think coal will be gone in my lifetime.

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Don

Tri-ing to have fun. Anything else is just a bonus!

You keep saying that but have not proffered any proof in support. Instead, you keep back pedaling.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Caterpillar didn't buy Bucyrus a few years ago because coal is dead. Wake up.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

We could just have immigrants from mexico do it.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

JSA wrote:

You keep saying that but have not proffered any proof in support. Instead, you keep back pedaling.

I offered the original url. And how about this.

A good.portion of their coal is from Australia IIRC

CHINA IS AN IMPORTER OF COAL. Read the Reuters article recently about how coke producers in China are gearing up because of smelters demands. Coal is only "dead" because of EPA regulations. Now if they can burn coal close to as clean as natural gas ain't no Thang to see a revival. I wouldn't get long coal companies but your position is irrational based on evidence.

.[/quote]

Bull shit. Where have I blamed the worker? I generally support workers and strong unions i[/quote]
That's a load of horseshit unless you have had a change of heart about Cuba.

That was your takeaway from his post? He basically pissed on your argument

Um maybe it's because they're actually installing them, unlike the US where they already exist.

Oh and you're cementing your snowflake lead.

Thanks Obama! In case you missed it, there's a new sheriff in town, bitch.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

This does not seem to agree with that premise. Coal is cheaper for electricity.

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I don't disagree, but I've made a case with coal that even the most ardent LR Trump ball washers can't really argue against.


You must be new around here.

Except that he failed miserably.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

He's made point other than he doesn't understand physical commodity or power markets.

Coal is a dead end technology. Solar energy gets cheaper over time because of technological improvement. Coal gets more expensive as it becomes more difficult to extract. Eventually in the not too distant future, the lines will cross and coal will be dead.

Kind of reminds me of the peak oil argument we kept hearing about in the early 2000's. While it will eventually will be true in the future, it is far from true now and likely be true for a long time. Two things need to happen, there needs be a lack of the coal necessary to continue it's use in the market place (definitely not true for North America) and an equal or superior product needs to exist. The 1st condition is being met by regulation which in turn at some point is faulty. The 2nd condition, despite all of the positive coverage is not even close to being accomplished. Wind & solar technology has evolved considerably in the last 20 years but it still falls well short of meeting our needs economically & socially. IMO I think a paradigm shift away from the large plants supplying power to much smaller facitilities or no power plants at all - off grid. Off grid use would force people to be responsible for their own power and how much they use. As it stands right now, it's pretty easy to flip on a switch and there's no real consequence outside of the power bill going up a bit. Either way, I'm starting to ramble...

It's different from peak oil in that the trend lines are clear. The cost per watt for solar is already down to $1. There has been a very steady decline in price for decades. It's very close to being cheaper than fossil fuels now.

Coal mining also seems like a job ripe for coal mining robots.

What is it if you remove the government subsidies?

When was the last time you heard of a new coal powered generation plant being built in the USA? They're being phased out. In fact, Canada has committed to this by 2030.

A) you did not rebut my point b) why are they being phased out in three US?

Why would they make robots for a job that will only be around a couple of years?

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#WeAreTheForge #BlackGunsMatter

"Look, will you guys at leats accept that you are a bunch of dumb asses and just trust me on this one? Please?" BarryP 7/30/2012

That's one plant genius. Believe or don't but if I were you I wouldn't eat the black speckled snow.

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

Did you mean lower labor costs? Why do you support slave labor?

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

This. Filled with facts!

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

What I'm taking from this thread is that coal is a viable source of jobs for the time being, but some people wish it wasn't. And again, their underlying contempt for the people who need those jobs comes through. "Those jobs might exist now, but pretty soon they won't, so you might as well just surrender now. No, we don't have an alternative for you, but so what. Just give in to the inevitable."

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Sorry Canuckian but you may have to adjust your optimist appraisal. Literally two after the election coal shipments by rail went crazy, along with evil oil and fracking sand. A power plant near Detroit ordered 52 train loads of coal a month. That's 100+ railcars per train which I believe converts to 5trucks per railcar which is all going to being fired up shooting some coal dust your way. Enjoy.

Good thing these businesses are looking long-term [sarcasm]

One of the more concerning and worrying moments of the recent Trump Address to congress was that some of the most robust clapping-and-standing happened after Trump talked about the coal business and how it's coming back! WTF - The coal business/industry is thankfully in decline world wide, and it's NOT coming back.

Sure it's still a big business, but it's NOT going to grow from here. It will only continue to decline.

Trump again, selling false hope, being dishonest and out-right-wrong on things! What's next - Trump saying the tobacco farming is going to be making a comeback? :)

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

How so? The original post isn't about picky minor technical details of the coal industry but rather the fact that Trump is selling snake oil to his base by claiming to make "coal great again" and create more jobs. You only have to look at the chart I posted and its obvious that jobs in that industry are in serious decline. Not only for reasons mentioned but also the fact that the coal industry like everybody else is also adapting more more automation. The only people in the industry that Trump might be able to help are his 1% friends who own the mines and the coal companies, not the working man. Even if coal was to become great again, the amount of jobs would be nowhere near the levels of the 1980's, so your prez is blowing air out his ass as usual.

I expect the typical nonsense responses from the usual village idiots like Rodred, racin_rusty, etc, etc every time I post, but I'm holding you to a higher standard. If this was a court case you'd be losing so be grateful that I'm not a lawyer.:-) If you have a legitimate argument against my premise that Trump is selling false promises, then please present it.

I don't think anyone has contempt for them. It is odd, though, that the liberals are on the "tough love" side of this economic argument. I've never thought that we should keep industries just to employ people, especially when those industries are bad for the environment. Truth be told, I don't think Republicans are in favor of that, either. They just say that they are when the need to win an election. If they could ship Joe the Coal Miner's job off to China to save a buck, they'd do it in a heart beat.

I do find rural America to be an interesting place, economically, demographically, etc.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Coal is a declining source of jobs and has been over the past thirty years and Trump is talking b.s. to his supporters saying that he can change that. Read the OP article. Coal is the #1 polluter on the planet. Its an industry where there are cleaner sources already and there will be more in the future. Coal may not ever go away, but it will continue to be less significant.

What I'm taking from this thread is that coal is a viable source of jobs for the time being,


Tom,

This is the nuanced part of this, that is true. And that is the right thing to say. It is still WRONG to say that the coal business is going to grow. Or getting people's hopes up that there will be more and more jobs in the coal business over time - there will not be!

Canada, and our green-enviro-loving PM is getting the same lashing up here about his agreeing to the recent major pipelines. FOR NOW oil is still a VERY important and needed world resource. It would be suicidal to just turn the taps off!

The middle-way - is to keep working with oil, but at the same time, investing as much as we can in green, sustainable and alternative energy sources! To some extremists on the left, that is massively hypocritical - but it's just the financial/economic reality of the current times. It's just being rational and realistic!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0tuAJkbUWU


is this how we are now describing political rhetoric?

This is the nuanced part of this, that is true. And that is the right thing to say. It is still WRONG to say that the coal business is going to grow. Or getting people's hopes up that there will be more and more jobs in the coal business over time - there will not be!

In the long term, probably not. In the present, there probably will be. And nobody really knows what "long term" means here, either. 10 years? 20 years? We should just give up on it because at some point in the future it will decline? That's not really a reasonable position, but I keep hearing it from people who don't seem to have the least concern for jobs in the present. Or for that matter, jobs for these people in the future.

"Don't bother trying to keep manufacturing plants in this country, because those plants are going to be automated anyway. Don't bother trying to save the coal mining industry, because it's eventually going away. No, we have no idea what you're going to do for a living now. Just accept it. Embrace your inevitable fate."

Me, I want to protect as many of those jobs for as long as possible and until an alternative presents itself. (I mean, yeah, someone suggested to me "neuro implant technician" as a job for which people should start preparing for, but frankly, I didn't take that very seriously.) As long as we're burning coal for energy, I say we mine it here, and pay people to do it. As long as China is burning coal, I say we export as much to them as possible. (And really, natural gas as a more environmentally friendly option? This is the same natural gas we're fracking to obtain, right?)


The middle-way - is to keep working with oil, but at the same time, investing as much as we can in green, sustainable and alternative energy sources!

That's fine from an energy standpoint, and reasonable. It doesn't really address the jobs side of the problem, though.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

in the present........
http://www.nytimes.com/...esults/west-virginia

I don't think anyone has contempt for them. It is odd, though, that the liberals are on the "tough love" side of this economic argument.

Agree to disagree about the contempt, and it isn't odd at all that the liberals are on the "tough love" side of this economic argument. They've always been more concerned with environmental concerns than the jobs affected. There needs to be a better balance. (And not really sure how much "love" there is in that tough love, either. Seems more like total disregard. "You're killing the environment, and your job is going away, so suck it.")

If they could ship Joe the Coal Miner's job off to China to save a buck, they'd do it in a heart beat.

Some would, and have. I'm not here waving the banner for Republicans. Trump, again, doesn't seem to fit that mold of Republican. So there's that.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

is this how we are now describing political rhetoric?


You know what is tiring - this!

Trump is the President now, democratically elected (we hope!) and it seems the tactic for many of the Trump defenders/supporters, is to just keep going back to Obama.

It's time to move forward, and to look forward. If you voted for Trump, and are a Trump supporter, I respect that - but don't keep continually going back to Obama, with almost every issue. That's not progressive. With all due respect, that's like to grade-5 kids in the school yard arguing and bickering.That goes no where!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Coal is much more expensive than natural gas.

So let's subsidize coal!

Let's get those union coal jobs back in West Virginia. Let's increase government programs to administer the subsidies,
and mine safety programs.

Let's get rid of all those non-union gas field jobs in Texas an North Dakota.

Too much cheap power and clean air!
Too many Republican congression district benefiting from free markets!

We need more subsidies, more inefficient polluting industries.

Leave that free market stuff to the commies in China.

What is the projection for jobs in the coal industry in the USA over the next 4 years?

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#WeAreTheForge #BlackGunsMatter

"Look, will you guys at leats accept that you are a bunch of dumb asses and just trust me on this one? Please?" BarryP 7/30/2012

So let's subsidize coal!

It already is.

I don't disagree, but I've made a case with coal that even the most ardent LR Trump ball washers can't really argue against.

You must be new around here.

Except that he failed miserably.

So, he fits in perfectly...

That's fine from an energy standpoint, and reasonable. It doesn't really address the jobs side of the problem, though.

I know in Canada large numbers of jobs, resources and technology are tied up in the oil/gas business and industry. So much so that despite large profits globally that many of the oil/gas companies are earning the Canadian government still issues subsidies to many Canadian businesses, in the oil/gas business.

As I said previously, to follow the lead of the really extreme left-wing types, we should just turn the taps off. THAT would be economic suicide for Canada, and political suicide for any politician who did that or even hinted at it. Trudeau, despite being an avowed environmentalist and strongly in favor of green-tech and sustainability has decided that for the time being, the middle road is best!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

More!
More!

Coal can't keep up with those communist-free-market natural gas producers in Texas and North Dakota.

Those gas prodcers have an unfair advantage. Lower cost, a better product and a more flexible labor force.

Coal needs help.
It is communist to not subsidize coal!

I think, with all due respect, the same could be said for the way many act towards what Trump says and the names his supporters are called. I have no problem being called a cunt, a ball washer, a racists and many other names. But don't think the hypocrisy of those doing it won't be pointed out, it's not looking backwards, it's merely pointing out the hypocrisy.

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#WeAreTheForge #BlackGunsMatter

"Look, will you guys at leats accept that you are a bunch of dumb asses and just trust me on this one? Please?" BarryP 7/30/2012

you said Trump is selling false hope, being dishonest and wrong. I could have posted a video of any politician to make my point.

You know what is tiring- you trying to make it seem like Trump is the first politician to pander to his base.

I get that you don't like him. But don't make it sound like his speech on Weds was the most unusual thing you have ever seen. Like spreading "false hope" is not something every President ever has done.

We all get the coal is not "the future". But to those who depend on it in the present it's pretty damn important. And they just lived through 8 years of being told their livelihood was going to ended in favor of Solyndra and others. You can say lets not look back but there is a pretty immediate correlation here.

Who was the only D to stay in the chamber after the speech? He was from WV. Where what's left of his party just got beat by 42% by the guy selling false hope and untruths.

I'm all for TALKING about the future. About how coal and manufacturing and blue and white collar jobs are going away, never coming back, too expensive, too dirty etc etc. I am all for planning and making changes on this future possibility. But if I was a politician I would be smart enough to know who voted me into office and what their needs and aspirations were.

I'm all for TALKING about the future. About how coal and manufacturing and blue and white collar jobs are going away, never coming back, too expensive, too dirty etc etc. I am all for planning and making changes on this future possibility. But if I was a politician I would be smart enough to know who voted me into office and what their needs and aspirations were.


I can't disagree with what you said here. It's the unfortunate/fortunate way our democratic system(s) work.

It's indeed it's a rare, politician these days who will stand-up and go against the grain, against his/her party, and supporters. I think it's an Irish saying - "You dance with the one that brought you"!

I have several friends here in Canada who have been Federal MP's (roughly equivalent to your House of Representative reps). In private conversations, they tell me they wrestle with this all the time - your party, what's right/wrong, your constituents, your conscience! That's the part of the job they tell me is most challenging.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

This article seems to contradict the chart.

http://oilprice.com/...ant-Retirements.html

I agree. I wish it wasn't that way but it is. And has been.

I think the larger issue here that isn't being discussed is how the D party is reacting and how they plan to work with or not work with the R party.

I understand that the immediate walk out of the chamber the other night was pre-planned. But in light of the way that speech went over, and how for the first time Trump reached out to that side, the optics were not great in my opinion.

Trump brought up some very Democratic pieces in that speech IMO. Child care credits and infrastructure rebuilding to name two.

IMO wise politicians in the D party would do well to figure out places they could work with him on to get things like the above through a R majority house.

I have seen in WI how outright rebellion, and refusal to work with this type of set up turned out for the Democrats in my state. It wasn't and continues to not be pretty for them.

You can sit on the sidelines and protest and watch the process pass you by or you can stay in the game and limit the other side to 80% of what they want while getting 20% of what you want.

Considering that liberals typically support affordable education, I don't think they are saying "suck it." Many would support retraining programs, or to have all of those coal jobs replaced with wind and solar jobs.


Conservatives, OTOH, have *always* been anti labor. If they could ship your job off to China to save 50 cents an hour, they'd do it in a heartbeat and blame it on [fill in the blank demographic] to get you to direct your anger toward.

Neither party is interested in saving an obsolete industry.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

According to who - Trump? :-)

No idea. I wouldn't be surprised to see a small upward blip in the next couple of years due to Trump's efforts, but even the top coal CEO's are telling him he can't make coal great again.

Just for the record whoever said something about people looking down on people like coal miners was talking about people like you. No one is keeping the coal industry just to keep jobs you flaming bonehead. They are fighting for it because it actually works as the success of our country shows. There is no replacement even close to being online aside from other fossils fuels so step back and be thankful that you still have coal to lean on.

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

I didn't post the graph. I posted the comment that fuel costs are not the same as electric power costs. I must have fucked up when I replied and it all meshed together.

Donny? You crack me up.

Now it's a pissing contest between liberals and conservatives and who hates labor more and who loves fuzzy puppies.

Look, you're talking about eliminating coal mining- to the point where you're mocking Trump's efforts to increase jobs in that industry right now, present day. Do you have a real world, practical plan to replace those jobs? I suggest that "affordable education" does not meet that requirement. As far as I know, neither does "replacing all those jobs" with jobs in renewable resources. If you think we can replace all those jobs with jobs in renewable energy, lay out that plan for me, because I am genuinely all ears.

It's fine to talk about affordable education and retraining programs. But those things don't create job openings.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

so how then is he selling false hope and telling fibs. Is he trying to step on the development of other sources either short or long term to do this?

Can you provide me with a link to what the top coal CEO's are saying please.

I've only read about ten posts and haven't read the article, nor have I done any research. Yet I'm willing to bet you $25 that US coal production will be higher in 2017 than it was in 2016. Want to take the bet?

Instead of cash, I'm also willing to make a signature bet. Loser has to include a signature of winner's choosing for six months (after data becomes available to verify the bet), provided the signature has to be in good taste and not obscene.

Will you take either bet? or both?

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

You don't know how to use google?

http://money.cnn.com/...-jobs-murray-energy/

see I think we are starting after 4 pages to get to the real story not the #fakenews. The real story is that Cerveloguy (and not Donny) is full of shit about the coal industry. That, as per usual, he really doesn't know what the hell he is talking about but because Trump says something (anything) it must be wrong.

Well, others in the thread are. Not me. I'll mock Trump about a lot of things, but this isn't one of them.




This goes back to what I said before. I don't think either party wants to save an obsolete industry.

In terms of MY personal view, no, I don't think we should save the coal industry for the sake of saving those jobs. No one invented RF engineering jobs for you when you were out of work, just like no one invented defense jobs in my city when I was out of work. That's not to say that we shouldn't have some sort of overall plan to keep employment up, but it just doesn't make any sense to focus on the one industry that has some of the worst jobs and is the worst for the environment.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

"I've only read about ten posts and haven't read the article, nor have I done any research. Yet I'm willing to bet you $25 that US coal production will be higher in 2017 than it was in 2016. Want to take the bet?"

Why don't you first read the articles and then come back to talk to me? I think it is very possible that coal production might take a slight upward blip in 2017 due to Trump's efforts, but I don't think that will make coal great again nor increase the workforce in that industry dramatically as Trump claims. In the long term, everything I've read and researched points to coal continuing to decline.

Wrong. Anything Trump says must be right. Just ask him.

I've made a pretty damn good argument on this thread that Trump is wrong on the coal issue.

Nope, not gonna read. I'm certainly not gonna read articles that try to predict the future (50% of the time scholarly predictions of future markets are wrong, peak oil anyone?). I live in a coal producing state. I've seen coal go down and go up. I don't think it will take much on a regulatory front to get an increase in production. So my gut tells me that in the next two years coal production will increase.

Will you take a bet if I say that in for the years 2017 and 2018 (averaged) coal production will 5% higher than 2016?

Heck, I don't know if 2016 was an up or down year. But I refuse to study this anymore. I want to bet. What kind of bet are you willing to make for a six month signature? What I will require you to have as a signature is: "Trump is smarter than me."

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Well, others in the thread are. Not me. I'll mock Trump about a lot of things, but this isn't one of them.

Fair enough. It was a general "you."


This goes back to what I said before. I don't think either party wants to save an obsolete industry.

Seems like Trump is working to save the jobs in that industry for as long as he can.


In terms of MY personal view, no, I don't think we should save the coal industry for the sake of saving those jobs. No one invented RF engineering jobs for you when you were out of work, just like no one invented defense jobs in my city when I was out of work.

Well, we disagree. I don't think we ought to be cavalier about putting entire industries out of work. I don't particularly care if we continue to mine coal or not, just like I don't particularly care if we continue to have large manufacturing plants here. But I do care that there is no alternative in place now or in the foreseeable future for the jobs lost. And yeah, you know what, I'm just as worried about my job prospects in the near future, and you probably should be, too. The same market forces that killed manufacturing are starting to affect jobs across the range of employment.

Right now, Trump is talking about protecting industries that employ large numbers of Americans and provide a decent living for people across wide geographic areas. I support that effort unless and until someone can show me how those Americans are going to earn a comparable living when those industries collapse. I have yet to hear any ideas on that- all I keep hearing is that those jobs are going away, and that's all there is to it. That might be the case, but I am all for whatever can be done to protect them for as long as possible.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

really, because I've read everything you've written and I cant figure out your argument beyond "these jobs are going away and never coming back" which appears to be your argument for any type of job growth or industry Trump is discussing.

Except then you say you wouldn't be surprised to see the jobs increase.......

"Except then you say you wouldn't be surprised to see the jobs increase....... "

I did say a small temporary blip due to his efforts, but he won't be anything close to previous levels. And in the long run job losses will continue to decline. That would happen any ways even if there was a moderate increase in production due to increasing automation.

We all know how monetary bets go on here

I don't disagree with Vitus that Trump is trying to save some jobs by propping up a declining industry, although I believe his main concern is his 1% friends who own the mines and coal companies more than he is genuinely concerned about workers. But he has been over selling his message and exaggerating the job reality to get votes in the coal belt (as well as the rust belt). The downside for Trump is if he doesn't deliver to his base, it could very come come back and bite him in the ass in the next election.

You mean the 1% who rocked it under Barry while the middle class died off? The same 1% who would have benefited from Hillary much like they did from Billy?

If his next opponent pledges to put the boot back on the neck of the coal industry with the intent to kill it, I don't think Trump's oversold message will matter much.

I think Trump oversells a lot of things. Including things he doesn't need to oversell. It's one of the many distasteful things about him for me.

But the reality of the coal and rust belt is that is where national elections are won and lost (vs. NY, CA, TX, IL). He may very well have oversold, but as with any sale there had to be an awfully lot of people hungry for the message on the other side of the sale.

I imagine McCain and Romney believe they didn't oversell their positions in the coal and rust belt.

I wonder...he said over and over and over again that he'd work to bring back coal jobs. The rust belt largely elected him and a big reason for it is that promise. You WANT it to be the case that Trump is doing it to benefit his evil rich friends, but maybe just maybe he's doing it to, you know, bring back jobs like he said he would. I'm sure the border wall is benefiting his evil rich friends too, huh?


Oh please. He's a politician (or at least he's playing one, for the time being)...he exaggerated the job reality to get votes? Give me a break, have you not heard a politician speak before? I despise the practice, it's impossible to take a politician at their word, and that's even when they give enough policy detail to know what they're thinking. But he's hardly alone in that regard, welcome to the world of politics I guess.

Listen, Trump can do very little for the coal industry, I think everyone in this thread has admitted as much. What he CAN do, however, is roll back EPA regulations and work with coal companies to stem the bleeding, maybe bring back a few thousand jobs in the process. Then hopefully in the longer term some retraining programs can be brought on board and maybe some programs for clean energy that will provide work in the rust belt.

What you're missing in all this - and Barry's comments reflect the same blindspot - is that the treatment of coal jobs is much of why Trump was elected. No time or energy was spent figuring out how to help spawn industry in these regions where coal is vital and in fact EPA regulations escalated the decline. It's fine to say that we need to focus on clean energy, I totally agree with that, but the means should NOT be through killing an industry that thousands rely on for their livelihoods. That was done, and those people were rightly pissed. Maybe Trump can't 'bring back coal', but he sure as hell try to prop it up for a time, so these regions can slowly adjust to a new reality.

I am beginning to think politics in Canada is somehow different than politics in the US

Yea slick willie got somewhat duped by Rubin. The clintons were poor and wanted to get in the club. But there is no doubt in my mind that trump ran for himself not average joe. Hillary probably wanted to advance women cause but I think her maternal instincts would have yielded more for average joes. After all obama recovery in stock market disproportionately helped upper tier. Guess you missed video of trump making restaurant run during transition ( when he thought he ditched press) and asking crowd for some love as he was going to give them big tax breaks.

Why wouldn't Trump supporters keep blaming Obama? Trump's presidency isn't even 100 days old, that's not even long enough for the US congress to figure out the seating arrangement for the next legislative session let alone actually pass a motion! The Obama administration blamed Bush for everything, surprised they didn't accuse him of causing the lake effect storms that ground upper NY to halt a few years back!

The Obama administration blamed Bush for everything, surprised they didn't accuse him of causing the lake effect storms that ground upper NY to halt a few years back!

They were wrong about that - those cold winds & air that caused those lake-effect snow dumps, came from Canada! :)

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I am beginning to think politics in Canada is somehow different than politics in the US


It is.

It's obviously a different system - as we follow the British Westminster model with an elected House of Commons and an appointed Senate. The Prime Minister is not directly elected, but is the head of the party in the House of Commons that has the most seats and forms the Government.

Another key difference is that we do have a 3rd party option that tends to keep things more balanced and less polarized right and left. The three main federal parties are - The Liberals( a bit left of center), The Conservatives (a bit right of center), and the NDP (a bit more left of center).

We are also right now anyway, in a different left-right cycle. The Conservatives, with PM Stephen Harper, had been in Minority and then Majority rule for a number of years but in the last Federal election a year and a half ago, there was a pretty strong swing back to the left, with Liberals forming the current majority Government and Justin Trudeau as PM.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Comrade if you had a scintilla of knowledge about the coal industry you'd realize the way to enrich the Coal 1% is to relieve them of pension obligations and legacy environmental costs. You do that and they would not all be in bankruptcy every other year. Just do some research. Reuters had a good article (maybe a series of articles) on coal recently.

I am particularly sensitive to Fleck's position re: my use of Obama. Mostly because I agree with him and hate the "but Bush, but Obama" positions. I wasn't using the video to specifically speak to Obama as much as to speak to the soaring rhetoric of most politicians.
That said, I think it is awfully hard to have a conversation relative to Trumps position on the coal industry without referencing what those in the coal industry have faced in the most recent administration

maternal instincts??????????????????????????

As millennial that recently left the coal industry, I left because I was sick of Texas. Not because I didn't like working in a coal mine, granted I was engineer, but either way I have been up to my nuts in coal dust plenty of times, and loved it. It was a very rewarding job, and non skilled new workers there made a really good wage ($18/hr+ot) to start. As these jobs get cut, there will be a lot of skilled equipment operators waiting for those "shovel ready" projects our current and past president have promised us.

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Pactimo brand ambassador, ask me about promo codes

I think the British parlimentary system is superior, warts and all to that mess the US has. Sorry guys, you have a wonderful country, awesome people but holy shit get a system of elected government that get's something done!

http://www.foxnews.com/...s-industry-hope.html

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

It was evaluated and found wanting by the founders.

Part of the beauty of our system is that oftentimes we don't 'get stuff done'. It's a slow moving ship for a reason; even a whopper of a disaster like the ACA takes time to pick apart, for good reason. much of the aim of the founders was to wrest as much power from central government as possible and give it to states and the people. The more power government has, the more they 'do', the less power the people have.

Canada too.

https://www.google.ca/...arts-production/amp/

The reason ACA even seen the light of day is because of how messed up your system is. Omnibus bills are bullshit. Nothing more than outright publicly approved corruption using bribery to get votes.

No doubt, you won't get disagreement from me there. Doesn't mean the system itself is fucked up, only that the politicians running the show are corrupt pieces of shit.

Your system has been run this way for decades. It's pretty obvious there's no will to change it.

And boy were they wrong. An American style republic may work well when the voters are a small cadre of white men who own land. It certainly doesn't with a diverse population of 300+ million. When incumbents have the same odds of being reelected as Dear Leader in a communist dictatorship's faux election then then you cannot even call that democracy anymore.

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http://www.platts.com/...ia-continue-21072822

Coal exports from terminals in Virginia's Hampton Roads region totaled 2.8 million st in February, up 8.2% from the prior month and up 50.7% from the year-ago month, according to export data released Monday by the Virginia Maritime Association.

It was the highest monthly total since March 2015, and the fifth straight month of higher exports, as higher seaborne prices increased demand for US thermal and metallurgical coals.

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

No doubt.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden