Just for the record whoever said something about people looking down on people like coal miners was talking about people like you. No one is keeping the coal industry just to keep jobs you flaming bonehead. They are fighting for it because it actually works as the success of our country shows. There is no replacement even close to being online aside from other fossils fuels so step back and be thankful that you still have coal to lean on.

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

I didn't post the graph. I posted the comment that fuel costs are not the same as electric power costs. I must have fucked up when I replied and it all meshed together.

Donny? You crack me up.

Now it's a pissing contest between liberals and conservatives and who hates labor more and who loves fuzzy puppies.

Look, you're talking about eliminating coal mining- to the point where you're mocking Trump's efforts to increase jobs in that industry right now, present day. Do you have a real world, practical plan to replace those jobs? I suggest that "affordable education" does not meet that requirement. As far as I know, neither does "replacing all those jobs" with jobs in renewable resources. If you think we can replace all those jobs with jobs in renewable energy, lay out that plan for me, because I am genuinely all ears.

It's fine to talk about affordable education and retraining programs. But those things don't create job openings.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

so how then is he selling false hope and telling fibs. Is he trying to step on the development of other sources either short or long term to do this?

Can you provide me with a link to what the top coal CEO's are saying please.

I've only read about ten posts and haven't read the article, nor have I done any research. Yet I'm willing to bet you $25 that US coal production will be higher in 2017 than it was in 2016. Want to take the bet?

Instead of cash, I'm also willing to make a signature bet. Loser has to include a signature of winner's choosing for six months (after data becomes available to verify the bet), provided the signature has to be in good taste and not obscene.

Will you take either bet? or both?

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

You don't know how to use google?

http://money.cnn.com/...-jobs-murray-energy/

see I think we are starting after 4 pages to get to the real story not the #fakenews. The real story is that Cerveloguy (and not Donny) is full of shit about the coal industry. That, as per usual, he really doesn't know what the hell he is talking about but because Trump says something (anything) it must be wrong.

Well, others in the thread are. Not me. I'll mock Trump about a lot of things, but this isn't one of them.




This goes back to what I said before. I don't think either party wants to save an obsolete industry.

In terms of MY personal view, no, I don't think we should save the coal industry for the sake of saving those jobs. No one invented RF engineering jobs for you when you were out of work, just like no one invented defense jobs in my city when I was out of work. That's not to say that we shouldn't have some sort of overall plan to keep employment up, but it just doesn't make any sense to focus on the one industry that has some of the worst jobs and is the worst for the environment.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

"I've only read about ten posts and haven't read the article, nor have I done any research. Yet I'm willing to bet you $25 that US coal production will be higher in 2017 than it was in 2016. Want to take the bet?"

Why don't you first read the articles and then come back to talk to me? I think it is very possible that coal production might take a slight upward blip in 2017 due to Trump's efforts, but I don't think that will make coal great again nor increase the workforce in that industry dramatically as Trump claims. In the long term, everything I've read and researched points to coal continuing to decline.

Wrong. Anything Trump says must be right. Just ask him.

I've made a pretty damn good argument on this thread that Trump is wrong on the coal issue.

Nope, not gonna read. I'm certainly not gonna read articles that try to predict the future (50% of the time scholarly predictions of future markets are wrong, peak oil anyone?). I live in a coal producing state. I've seen coal go down and go up. I don't think it will take much on a regulatory front to get an increase in production. So my gut tells me that in the next two years coal production will increase.

Will you take a bet if I say that in for the years 2017 and 2018 (averaged) coal production will 5% higher than 2016?

Heck, I don't know if 2016 was an up or down year. But I refuse to study this anymore. I want to bet. What kind of bet are you willing to make for a six month signature? What I will require you to have as a signature is: "Trump is smarter than me."

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Well, others in the thread are. Not me. I'll mock Trump about a lot of things, but this isn't one of them.

Fair enough. It was a general "you."


This goes back to what I said before. I don't think either party wants to save an obsolete industry.

Seems like Trump is working to save the jobs in that industry for as long as he can.


In terms of MY personal view, no, I don't think we should save the coal industry for the sake of saving those jobs. No one invented RF engineering jobs for you when you were out of work, just like no one invented defense jobs in my city when I was out of work.

Well, we disagree. I don't think we ought to be cavalier about putting entire industries out of work. I don't particularly care if we continue to mine coal or not, just like I don't particularly care if we continue to have large manufacturing plants here. But I do care that there is no alternative in place now or in the foreseeable future for the jobs lost. And yeah, you know what, I'm just as worried about my job prospects in the near future, and you probably should be, too. The same market forces that killed manufacturing are starting to affect jobs across the range of employment.

Right now, Trump is talking about protecting industries that employ large numbers of Americans and provide a decent living for people across wide geographic areas. I support that effort unless and until someone can show me how those Americans are going to earn a comparable living when those industries collapse. I have yet to hear any ideas on that- all I keep hearing is that those jobs are going away, and that's all there is to it. That might be the case, but I am all for whatever can be done to protect them for as long as possible.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

really, because I've read everything you've written and I cant figure out your argument beyond "these jobs are going away and never coming back" which appears to be your argument for any type of job growth or industry Trump is discussing.

Except then you say you wouldn't be surprised to see the jobs increase.......

"Except then you say you wouldn't be surprised to see the jobs increase....... "

I did say a small temporary blip due to his efforts, but he won't be anything close to previous levels. And in the long run job losses will continue to decline. That would happen any ways even if there was a moderate increase in production due to increasing automation.

We all know how monetary bets go on here

I don't disagree with Vitus that Trump is trying to save some jobs by propping up a declining industry, although I believe his main concern is his 1% friends who own the mines and coal companies more than he is genuinely concerned about workers. But he has been over selling his message and exaggerating the job reality to get votes in the coal belt (as well as the rust belt). The downside for Trump is if he doesn't deliver to his base, it could very come come back and bite him in the ass in the next election.

You mean the 1% who rocked it under Barry while the middle class died off? The same 1% who would have benefited from Hillary much like they did from Billy?

If his next opponent pledges to put the boot back on the neck of the coal industry with the intent to kill it, I don't think Trump's oversold message will matter much.

I think Trump oversells a lot of things. Including things he doesn't need to oversell. It's one of the many distasteful things about him for me.

But the reality of the coal and rust belt is that is where national elections are won and lost (vs. NY, CA, TX, IL). He may very well have oversold, but as with any sale there had to be an awfully lot of people hungry for the message on the other side of the sale.

I imagine McCain and Romney believe they didn't oversell their positions in the coal and rust belt.

I wonder...he said over and over and over again that he'd work to bring back coal jobs. The rust belt largely elected him and a big reason for it is that promise. You WANT it to be the case that Trump is doing it to benefit his evil rich friends, but maybe just maybe he's doing it to, you know, bring back jobs like he said he would. I'm sure the border wall is benefiting his evil rich friends too, huh?


Oh please. He's a politician (or at least he's playing one, for the time being)...he exaggerated the job reality to get votes? Give me a break, have you not heard a politician speak before? I despise the practice, it's impossible to take a politician at their word, and that's even when they give enough policy detail to know what they're thinking. But he's hardly alone in that regard, welcome to the world of politics I guess.

Listen, Trump can do very little for the coal industry, I think everyone in this thread has admitted as much. What he CAN do, however, is roll back EPA regulations and work with coal companies to stem the bleeding, maybe bring back a few thousand jobs in the process. Then hopefully in the longer term some retraining programs can be brought on board and maybe some programs for clean energy that will provide work in the rust belt.

What you're missing in all this - and Barry's comments reflect the same blindspot - is that the treatment of coal jobs is much of why Trump was elected. No time or energy was spent figuring out how to help spawn industry in these regions where coal is vital and in fact EPA regulations escalated the decline. It's fine to say that we need to focus on clean energy, I totally agree with that, but the means should NOT be through killing an industry that thousands rely on for their livelihoods. That was done, and those people were rightly pissed. Maybe Trump can't 'bring back coal', but he sure as hell try to prop it up for a time, so these regions can slowly adjust to a new reality.