What I'm taking from this thread is that coal is a viable source of jobs for the time being, but some people wish it wasn't. And again, their underlying contempt for the people who need those jobs comes through. "Those jobs might exist now, but pretty soon they won't, so you might as well just surrender now. No, we don't have an alternative for you, but so what. Just give in to the inevitable."

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Sorry Canuckian but you may have to adjust your optimist appraisal. Literally two after the election coal shipments by rail went crazy, along with evil oil and fracking sand. A power plant near Detroit ordered 52 train loads of coal a month. That's 100+ railcars per train which I believe converts to 5trucks per railcar which is all going to being fired up shooting some coal dust your way. Enjoy.

Good thing these businesses are looking long-term [sarcasm]

One of the more concerning and worrying moments of the recent Trump Address to congress was that some of the most robust clapping-and-standing happened after Trump talked about the coal business and how it's coming back! WTF - The coal business/industry is thankfully in decline world wide, and it's NOT coming back.

Sure it's still a big business, but it's NOT going to grow from here. It will only continue to decline.

Trump again, selling false hope, being dishonest and out-right-wrong on things! What's next - Trump saying the tobacco farming is going to be making a comeback? :)

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

How so? The original post isn't about picky minor technical details of the coal industry but rather the fact that Trump is selling snake oil to his base by claiming to make "coal great again" and create more jobs. You only have to look at the chart I posted and its obvious that jobs in that industry are in serious decline. Not only for reasons mentioned but also the fact that the coal industry like everybody else is also adapting more more automation. The only people in the industry that Trump might be able to help are his 1% friends who own the mines and the coal companies, not the working man. Even if coal was to become great again, the amount of jobs would be nowhere near the levels of the 1980's, so your prez is blowing air out his ass as usual.

I expect the typical nonsense responses from the usual village idiots like Rodred, racin_rusty, etc, etc every time I post, but I'm holding you to a higher standard. If this was a court case you'd be losing so be grateful that I'm not a lawyer.:-) If you have a legitimate argument against my premise that Trump is selling false promises, then please present it.

I don't think anyone has contempt for them. It is odd, though, that the liberals are on the "tough love" side of this economic argument. I've never thought that we should keep industries just to employ people, especially when those industries are bad for the environment. Truth be told, I don't think Republicans are in favor of that, either. They just say that they are when the need to win an election. If they could ship Joe the Coal Miner's job off to China to save a buck, they'd do it in a heart beat.

I do find rural America to be an interesting place, economically, demographically, etc.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Coal is a declining source of jobs and has been over the past thirty years and Trump is talking b.s. to his supporters saying that he can change that. Read the OP article. Coal is the #1 polluter on the planet. Its an industry where there are cleaner sources already and there will be more in the future. Coal may not ever go away, but it will continue to be less significant.

What I'm taking from this thread is that coal is a viable source of jobs for the time being,


Tom,

This is the nuanced part of this, that is true. And that is the right thing to say. It is still WRONG to say that the coal business is going to grow. Or getting people's hopes up that there will be more and more jobs in the coal business over time - there will not be!

Canada, and our green-enviro-loving PM is getting the same lashing up here about his agreeing to the recent major pipelines. FOR NOW oil is still a VERY important and needed world resource. It would be suicidal to just turn the taps off!

The middle-way - is to keep working with oil, but at the same time, investing as much as we can in green, sustainable and alternative energy sources! To some extremists on the left, that is massively hypocritical - but it's just the financial/economic reality of the current times. It's just being rational and realistic!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0tuAJkbUWU


is this how we are now describing political rhetoric?

This is the nuanced part of this, that is true. And that is the right thing to say. It is still WRONG to say that the coal business is going to grow. Or getting people's hopes up that there will be more and more jobs in the coal business over time - there will not be!

In the long term, probably not. In the present, there probably will be. And nobody really knows what "long term" means here, either. 10 years? 20 years? We should just give up on it because at some point in the future it will decline? That's not really a reasonable position, but I keep hearing it from people who don't seem to have the least concern for jobs in the present. Or for that matter, jobs for these people in the future.

"Don't bother trying to keep manufacturing plants in this country, because those plants are going to be automated anyway. Don't bother trying to save the coal mining industry, because it's eventually going away. No, we have no idea what you're going to do for a living now. Just accept it. Embrace your inevitable fate."

Me, I want to protect as many of those jobs for as long as possible and until an alternative presents itself. (I mean, yeah, someone suggested to me "neuro implant technician" as a job for which people should start preparing for, but frankly, I didn't take that very seriously.) As long as we're burning coal for energy, I say we mine it here, and pay people to do it. As long as China is burning coal, I say we export as much to them as possible. (And really, natural gas as a more environmentally friendly option? This is the same natural gas we're fracking to obtain, right?)


The middle-way - is to keep working with oil, but at the same time, investing as much as we can in green, sustainable and alternative energy sources!

That's fine from an energy standpoint, and reasonable. It doesn't really address the jobs side of the problem, though.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

in the present........
http://www.nytimes.com/...esults/west-virginia

I don't think anyone has contempt for them. It is odd, though, that the liberals are on the "tough love" side of this economic argument.

Agree to disagree about the contempt, and it isn't odd at all that the liberals are on the "tough love" side of this economic argument. They've always been more concerned with environmental concerns than the jobs affected. There needs to be a better balance. (And not really sure how much "love" there is in that tough love, either. Seems more like total disregard. "You're killing the environment, and your job is going away, so suck it.")

If they could ship Joe the Coal Miner's job off to China to save a buck, they'd do it in a heart beat.

Some would, and have. I'm not here waving the banner for Republicans. Trump, again, doesn't seem to fit that mold of Republican. So there's that.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

is this how we are now describing political rhetoric?


You know what is tiring - this!

Trump is the President now, democratically elected (we hope!) and it seems the tactic for many of the Trump defenders/supporters, is to just keep going back to Obama.

It's time to move forward, and to look forward. If you voted for Trump, and are a Trump supporter, I respect that - but don't keep continually going back to Obama, with almost every issue. That's not progressive. With all due respect, that's like to grade-5 kids in the school yard arguing and bickering.That goes no where!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Coal is much more expensive than natural gas.

So let's subsidize coal!

Let's get those union coal jobs back in West Virginia. Let's increase government programs to administer the subsidies,
and mine safety programs.

Let's get rid of all those non-union gas field jobs in Texas an North Dakota.

Too much cheap power and clean air!
Too many Republican congression district benefiting from free markets!

We need more subsidies, more inefficient polluting industries.

Leave that free market stuff to the commies in China.

What is the projection for jobs in the coal industry in the USA over the next 4 years?

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#WeAreTheForge #BlackGunsMatter

"Look, will you guys at leats accept that you are a bunch of dumb asses and just trust me on this one? Please?" BarryP 7/30/2012

So let's subsidize coal!

It already is.

I don't disagree, but I've made a case with coal that even the most ardent LR Trump ball washers can't really argue against.

You must be new around here.

Except that he failed miserably.

So, he fits in perfectly...

That's fine from an energy standpoint, and reasonable. It doesn't really address the jobs side of the problem, though.

I know in Canada large numbers of jobs, resources and technology are tied up in the oil/gas business and industry. So much so that despite large profits globally that many of the oil/gas companies are earning the Canadian government still issues subsidies to many Canadian businesses, in the oil/gas business.

As I said previously, to follow the lead of the really extreme left-wing types, we should just turn the taps off. THAT would be economic suicide for Canada, and political suicide for any politician who did that or even hinted at it. Trudeau, despite being an avowed environmentalist and strongly in favor of green-tech and sustainability has decided that for the time being, the middle road is best!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

More!
More!

Coal can't keep up with those communist-free-market natural gas producers in Texas and North Dakota.

Those gas prodcers have an unfair advantage. Lower cost, a better product and a more flexible labor force.

Coal needs help.
It is communist to not subsidize coal!

I think, with all due respect, the same could be said for the way many act towards what Trump says and the names his supporters are called. I have no problem being called a cunt, a ball washer, a racists and many other names. But don't think the hypocrisy of those doing it won't be pointed out, it's not looking backwards, it's merely pointing out the hypocrisy.

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#WeAreTheForge #BlackGunsMatter

"Look, will you guys at leats accept that you are a bunch of dumb asses and just trust me on this one? Please?" BarryP 7/30/2012

you said Trump is selling false hope, being dishonest and wrong. I could have posted a video of any politician to make my point.

You know what is tiring- you trying to make it seem like Trump is the first politician to pander to his base.

I get that you don't like him. But don't make it sound like his speech on Weds was the most unusual thing you have ever seen. Like spreading "false hope" is not something every President ever has done.

We all get the coal is not "the future". But to those who depend on it in the present it's pretty damn important. And they just lived through 8 years of being told their livelihood was going to ended in favor of Solyndra and others. You can say lets not look back but there is a pretty immediate correlation here.

Who was the only D to stay in the chamber after the speech? He was from WV. Where what's left of his party just got beat by 42% by the guy selling false hope and untruths.

I'm all for TALKING about the future. About how coal and manufacturing and blue and white collar jobs are going away, never coming back, too expensive, too dirty etc etc. I am all for planning and making changes on this future possibility. But if I was a politician I would be smart enough to know who voted me into office and what their needs and aspirations were.

I'm all for TALKING about the future. About how coal and manufacturing and blue and white collar jobs are going away, never coming back, too expensive, too dirty etc etc. I am all for planning and making changes on this future possibility. But if I was a politician I would be smart enough to know who voted me into office and what their needs and aspirations were.


I can't disagree with what you said here. It's the unfortunate/fortunate way our democratic system(s) work.

It's indeed it's a rare, politician these days who will stand-up and go against the grain, against his/her party, and supporters. I think it's an Irish saying - "You dance with the one that brought you"!

I have several friends here in Canada who have been Federal MP's (roughly equivalent to your House of Representative reps). In private conversations, they tell me they wrestle with this all the time - your party, what's right/wrong, your constituents, your conscience! That's the part of the job they tell me is most challenging.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

This article seems to contradict the chart.

http://oilprice.com/...ant-Retirements.html

I agree. I wish it wasn't that way but it is. And has been.

I think the larger issue here that isn't being discussed is how the D party is reacting and how they plan to work with or not work with the R party.

I understand that the immediate walk out of the chamber the other night was pre-planned. But in light of the way that speech went over, and how for the first time Trump reached out to that side, the optics were not great in my opinion.

Trump brought up some very Democratic pieces in that speech IMO. Child care credits and infrastructure rebuilding to name two.

IMO wise politicians in the D party would do well to figure out places they could work with him on to get things like the above through a R majority house.

I have seen in WI how outright rebellion, and refusal to work with this type of set up turned out for the Democrats in my state. It wasn't and continues to not be pretty for them.

You can sit on the sidelines and protest and watch the process pass you by or you can stay in the game and limit the other side to 80% of what they want while getting 20% of what you want.

Considering that liberals typically support affordable education, I don't think they are saying "suck it." Many would support retraining programs, or to have all of those coal jobs replaced with wind and solar jobs.


Conservatives, OTOH, have *always* been anti labor. If they could ship your job off to China to save 50 cents an hour, they'd do it in a heartbeat and blame it on [fill in the blank demographic] to get you to direct your anger toward.

Neither party is interested in saving an obsolete industry.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

According to who - Trump? :-)

No idea. I wouldn't be surprised to see a small upward blip in the next couple of years due to Trump's efforts, but even the top coal CEO's are telling him he can't make coal great again.