Thanks for the info. I've been tinkering with the idea of angling my aero bars up this winter. My current position is forearms parallel to the deck, which this season seems to be placing stress on my deltoids and triceps all of a sudden. Playing around on the trainer lately if I lift my hands up while leaving my elbows in place I feel an immediate muscular relief.

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The secret of a long life is you try not to shorten it.
-Nobody

Thanks! I put mine at about 5 degrees up but will be messing with a bit more angled up this winter to tweak my position. The good thing with messing with things over winter on trainer is that if it's comfy on the trainer almost sure it will be on the road!

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Twitter - Instagram

Old news...like 20 y old news (right down the fact that F.I.S.T. reach is too short for minimal drag).

Season just wrapped up Sunday at Tahoe 70.3. This makes me want to try some different extensions that allow me to angle arms up a bit. The one thing that stuck out was Jim saying it was easier to see forward with arms angled up and a bit more reach.

One frustration I have is that I feel like even though my back isn't quite flat, I still have trouble seeing the road in front of me.

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Yep, as the article notes, this is nothing new, it practically goes back to the first use of aero bars. What I'm trying to nail down is when everyone "forgot" to angle their arms up? It seems to have been gradual over the years, but I think the final, and big, nail in the coffin was Jan Ullrich in the '03 TdF time trial with his Walser. After that, everyone, it seemed, wanted/needed to have straight extensions, and those progressed to s-bends.

Also, while this works for most, it's not for everyone. There are those who do better with arms parallel or even angled down a bit. It seems to work for "type b" backs rather than a flatter back, and even then we find most are better arms up. But, for those very few, angled a bit down draws the shoulders in very narrow and CdA drops (think Tony Martin). Not super comfortable, but slippery when done right.

I can't preach enough that triathletes need more reach, and angling the arms up requires that much more. We need longer bikes...longer is more comfortable, not less! Don't get me started with the UCI restrictions. I have girls who are 5'2" taking every millimeter of the reach exemption.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Yes, angling of the forearms, especially if you can angle the pads and "lean into" them, "pre-cranes" the cervical spine and relieves the splenius muscles from much of the load of lifting and maintaining the head in the aero position; a task they were never meant to perform.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

With a Blue Triad and the brand stem and bars, is there any way to get some uplift to my system? I have been raising them quite a bit during training rides and like the feel of less arm strain in addition to not being pulled forward down the saddle. Any make overs that could get me to move the extensions?
Thanks!

So if you have a base bar where the bars are fixed to the base and you have to tilt the whole setup via the stem do you still get the same benefit at 12 degrees? I ask because the wing part would be slightly tiled up. Think the standard Felt B series basebar. Thanks in advance.

As in what the article talked about in the in the last paragraph and table before the Conclusion?

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<We all know that light travels faster than sound. That's why certain people appear bright until you hear them speak>

Jim, any idea of the impacts of BTA hydration (not Torhans 30 types)?

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<We all know that light travels faster than sound. That's why certain people appear bright until you hear them speak>

Not enough data for anything conclusive, but it's not looking good. Profile Design has their Basebar Bracket that might be the savior there if it fits your bar. I'm planning on testing more in this area Oct 2nd.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Honestly, I don't see a lot of Blue's come through. I don't think we've ever aero tested with one; however, if the Basebar is fixed, I would simply get extensions that get your hands above your elbows. We've tried angling the pads by stacking Velcro strips between the pad and arm rest on bars that don't rotate, but the numbers didn't look good since we basically built a wall of fabric for the air to hit. Only tried it once, though, so take it for what it's worth.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Thanks so much for the reply. I appreciate your time. I hope to find a solution before next year.

Argggghhh!!!! All my best secrets are being given away! If everyone listens to folks like you soon my aero advantage will be gone and I'll have nothing but my crappy FTP to fall back on!

Triathletes: Do not listen to this guy. He doesn't know what he's talking about. Especially if you're in my AG!

It seems so obvious when you mention it.

I think that those of us who are doing this in our garages should be using protractor apps to get the angles replicable. It's hard to know just by feel. I'll be testing 10-12 degrees this weekend.

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'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'

Question: Does this mean that BTA in general are not good, or BTA with an angled aerobars are not good? Or both?

Thanks for the information Jim. Would you expect to see the same results over the different shapes of bar ends (ski, s-band, etc.)?

Hi Jim! Any suggestions on angling the armpads for 3t basebars that have integrated stems? Ventus/Ventus II and Aduro. Perhaps using washers or a nut underneath the front bolt would give a significant angle while maintaining stability? Or would cutting/angulating 3t metal risers provide the same benefit? Thanks!

All the talk about more reach....what about those with really short torsos.....many bikes are already too long reach or many of us ???

This is a great question. I'm going to initially answer from the perspective of those who need to conform to UCI regulations even though virtually no one on this forum need worry about it. When the UCI relaxed the rules on forearm angle in late 2013, the new rule allowed for the tip of the shifters, inline with the extensions, to be no more than 10cm above the arm pads. Inline with the extensions is very important. Ski bend extensions point shifters up and, therefore, get to the 10cm limit more quickly than s-bends which point more parallel. With s-bends, you can angle the arm pads more than you can with ski bends, and provide more support. Make sense?

For anyone who doesn't need to adhere to UCI regs, this is still a valid difference. S-bends keep the hands in a more neutral position as your angle both extensions and pads which, of course, is just the opposite of what they do when parallel. Getting the 15 degree'ish forearm angle is better supported with s-bends than ski bends because the pads angle with the extensions and conform to the actual angle of the forearms.

Then again, it's also a personal preference.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Seriously?? All this industry has done for the last several years is go shorter and shorter. There are few options for long; the overwhelming options are for short reach, which few actually need when fit correctly. Luckily, manufacturers are waking up, and beginning to change back to what the majority of athletes need.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Which is why they will prise this P3C from my cold, dead hands.

For the other guy above, my Felt Devox bars have fixed extension angles and so to be able to keep the base bar flat whilst raising my hands I bought some Use Tula extensions (aluminium) which I mount in reverse.

I'll note that I've been pleasantly surprised at my gains by just going to a longer stem from last year. I think it's also opened up my ability to tuck my head a little lower as well. I estimate I'm saving around 15W @25mph. Honestly I'm still pretty compact, but without wind tunnel testing I'd be terrified to make any more changes at this point. Going backwards is always a distinct possibility. MY extensions are level, but they are ski bends and my arms end up about 5-10 degrees angles up most of the time based on my typical grip. I have small hands so I've cut about at least 3cm off the up turned end.

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I've thought of doing something similar but decided against it. The underside of the bolt head should make flush contact with whatever it's clamping against. The pad it's holding in place will need to mounted horizontally since the bolt will be installed vertically. Otherwise you create a concentrated stress under the edge of the bolt head at the high side of the pad. I wouldn't trust the fatigue life of that system.

I can't think of a way to do it without specially machined parts.

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Yeah, I've seen it done, and concentric washers help a little, but machining spacers would be the best way to go. We've spoken to a few manufacturers and they're understanding the need to angle pads and extensions independently. We have a few prototypes headed our way for testing over the Fall.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Hi Jim, I concur that the industry has certainly gone to shorter reach, probably largely following triathlon race entry trends where we see the bulk of participants being 35-59 years old, with deep wallets but not very flexible bodies (I get it that with a good fit, you don't need to be that flexible, but still, a 49 year old, 30 lbs overweight is not going to be the same as a 30 year old). So back in the day, you had people riding the P3 ALU with a massive spacer stack and short stems. Now you get the new P3 and basically the bike fills that gap, rather than spacers and short stems....which of course does not help the FOP athlete, but it sells more bikes at the shop to the bulk of buyers. In my case, am feeling like my new P3 has too much stack and now looking to get an angled down stem to get a bit lower (for several years getting lower was a non option due to a neck injury, but now I think I am ready). I literally have the shortest torso on the planet for my height (well, some Kenyans also built for heat dissipation have long limbs and no torso too).

I always thought Jan Ullrich's 2003 TdF set up was somewhat stupid and not sure exactly why people followed it. Always been on ski bends other than 1 year where my bike came with straights which I figured out how to use, but could never angle my forearms up since the bar was integrated to the base bar.

Old perhaps, yes, but UCI rule changes make it new. Even though the level-forearm rule was removed in early 2014 with the clarification of Article 1.3 on TT measurements, a surprising number of commissaires still think it's in effect.

I think that UCI-imposed horizontal-forearm position tricked a lot of IM athletes into going level-forearm too, thinking that pro cyclists knew something they didn't. And from the lack of bar tilt adjustability of most frame manufacturers' aerobars, it seemed to have tricked the manufacturers, too.

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AndyF
bike geek

What does that do to your power output? I would assume that most of the gains come from riding lower (elbows end up lower at angled position vs parallel) - so there also would be a change at the hip area. Does that impact power output?

that's a red herring if you're getting fit right. A good TT position is as comfortable as an upside-down easy chair. You want to engage the big muscles.

besides, if not, that's what shorter cranks are for :)

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Or at least reiterating the lessons of the past.


Along with the UCI rules, I blame Dan's F.I.S.T. protocol as well. Supporting yourself "skeletally" with near-vertical upper arms has never been the way to minimize aero drag.

FWIW, below is my TT position from the early/mid-1990s. It was developed by eyeballing/copying what the likes of what, e.g., Boardman et al. were doing pre-Superman, then further refined based on wind tunnel testing at Texas A&M (thank you, again, John Cobb!).



Unfortunately, due to UCI rules I've since had to shorten my reach almost 10 cm, even when availing myself of the morphological exception. This has resulted in a significant increase in my CdA, at least/especially at low yaw angles.

This looks to be "in between" Boardman's Corima World Hour Record and his Superman World Hour record (52 kph and 56 kph respectively if I recall correctly). Boardman was saying that the single biggest gain was "eliminating those tubes" from his profile (he was pointing to his biceps) and smoothing the air flow from the hands over the arms-shoulder-head. So I can see how the in between position makes sense, but at the same time, how do we hold it for a full IM or even half IM. By the way, love the Hooker Elite bike.

For the other guy above, my Felt Devox bars have fixed extension angles and so to be able to keep the base bar flat whilst raising my hands I bought some Use Tula extensions (aluminium) which I mount in reverse.

But then your forearms are not sitting flat on the pads, which are also fixed to the base bar. Do you have a solution for that?

Mine squish a lot down over time, so the bar pads become angled. Actually, I gain a few mm extra drop on old pads vs. new.

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I have a solution "in mind" but haven't done it yet. I do think it is worth having the pads angled in line with the effective bar angle, as it were, for comfort. I'm planning to take a scalpel to my Cee Gees, or try something with different length pad bolts front and back and maybe bevelled washers, or something. But more likely modifying the Cee Gees, I reckon there is enough thickness to play with and get close if I can bond some velcro to the back of it.

my solution is that the elbows are on the pads and the point of support. no forearm touches the pads, pads are essentially a big wasted space

See previous comments by Jim and AndyF: the lower your elbow pads, the further out you need to reach to relieve tension in your upper body. The limiting factors, then, become 1) power output, and 2) possible neck pain (from craning your head to peer up the road, if only occasionally).

Ditto (see pic above). It's all about finding the neutral balance point (i.e., if you let go of the aerobars, your forearm angle shouldn't really change).

What do you do if you use a BTA hydration?

Do you angle it with the aerobars and lose the ability to fill all the way to the top?
Or do you try to keep it level by MacGuyvering it with some tie wraps?

I've got an Profile Design Aero HC, so it doesn't "drop" below my arms." I assume that these things are designed to be most aero when they're horizontal (that is, when they're on they're own), but I don't know how the interplay between them and my arms would work....

my solution is that the elbows are on the pads and the point of support. no forearm touches the pads, pads are essentially a big wasted space

Interesting. Comfortable? Any pics?

Oops, you just gave away the key piece, Andy. You're bad for business! ;-)

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AndyF
bike geek

Sorry! However, if people haven't realized/don't know that already, then either 1) they're not very analytical, or 2) their google-fu is suspect.

I don't understand why you're "terrified" of making further changes. It's quite possible you're leaving further gains on the table. If you carefully document your current position before further experimentation, what's the downside?

If you have a powermeter, try the Chung method. I've used it and while it's a bit tricky, if you're careful it can be a very effective method. I like it because it lends itself to ongoing experimentation. I did a wind tunnel test last year and it was mostly a waste of time, which might be partly a function of the particular local tunnel I used, not one of the well-known ones. My big gains in CdA have all been as a result of my own experimentation, not a fit or tunnel. At this point I'm going to use the Chung method for further refinement. Now if I can just get over my self-consciousness about riding loops over and over again in my neighborhood in full aero kit...

The trick is to buy a set of conical washers.
I'm sure you can get what you need at home depot.

I used these though (different frame). By putting the washer under the screw head, you can maintain flush contact on both sides
http://www.jensonusa.com/...HPkMgCFQuraQodvGQNJA

I've thought about conical washers which would allow for the tilt. However, how do you produce the tilt? Grind down a spacer into a wedge for each bar? I'm open to ideas, if you've got any. I'm on a version 1 Trek SC9 with the TriRig aerobar clamp adapters. I may just have to swap back to the original hardware which allows for tilting of the aerobars/pads independent of the base bar. But it's so much weight...

I checked your link but I don't see any images so I don't know what you're recommending.

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Agree with that. The angle of the pads doesn't really matter much if the elbows are positioned almost mid pad. Very stable way to set up a position as well.

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

Oh, I use a conical washer for the tilt also.
So one washer goes in between bar and the holder on the front side.

IE the stack would look like this for the front

Conical Washer
Arm pad
Tririg Holder
Conical Washer
Base bar

and for the back, you would leave out the conical washer at the bottom

Hey Jim, any chance you are thinking of getting some parts made to allow angling of 3t aduro armpads? I have the up angled forarms by using USE ski bend extensions but that puts my hands up leaving the pads level which isn't comfy.

You might get the aero benefit, but the main reason we do this is for comfort; aero is just icing on the cake for us. Comfort comes from using the angle of the arm pad to lean into resulting in a relaxed upper body. Somebody mentioned it's harder to look forward with arms angled up. If that's the case, they did it wrong; it gets much, much easier to crane if you do it correctly. I'll give you an example.

Yesterday I worked with a BOP triathlete training for her first Ironman. She's been unable to ride more than 60 miles because of pain and numbness in her neck. Chiropractors, Physical Therapists, Acupuncture - she tried them all to no avail. She thought raising her aero position was the answer, but it wasn't. I angled her forearms, gave her a bit more reach, and sent her out for a ride. She rode over 100 miles. She said she was so comfortable, she just kept going! I want my athletes to enjoy the added support of the angled arm pads. You can place your elbows on the pads and achieve the arm angle, but you'll miss out on the biggest advantage to the adjustment.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Not sure I agree with you on that. If the elbows are placed on the pads, extensions are put at the correct length and the angle of them places the shifters just high enough it essentially achieves the same thing you're talking about ime. Of course it's easier to angle up the pads and the extensions independently of the base bar but it's not always an option. I actually prefer the elbows further out most of the time anyway for comfort and because it can help make it easier to hold a good position(especially if cockpit position is narrow). Not saying this to convince you(and I probably couldn't anyway!) but to give a different alternative to at least try for those who are experimenting with the angled forearm approach but can't angle the pads easily.

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

I concur, absolutely nothing uncomfortable with elbow on pads, at least for me.

Time to necro this thread.

Jim, I am getting ready to do that mod on my P5. In my current position I have some issues with tension in my back so I need to try that and see if it relieves some.

I have the profile design risers under my pads, and I'm going to cut them so the pads are at an angle. My question is, what is a good angle to start with? What is the range of angles that you would recommend? I was going to start at a 10deg angle and see how that goes.

I hope somebody can help with that.

You're looking for 10-15 degrees of forearm angle, so whatever angle gets you there. Some find a little more than that is better, but most fall in this range. You'll need to simultaneously add reach; at least 1cm. Since angling your forearms will effectively lower your entire torso, you might also want to adjust drop by 5mm to 1cm.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Quick question for you. Does a BTA bottle impact the gain of a 10 degree tilt at all? I did not see that noted in your piece. I'm really interested a BTA bottle impact on a fixed base bar being tilted. Thanks!

We've had mixed results. Sometimes no effect, other times it has a negative effect (though still a net positive overall); it's never better. Profile Design sells a base bar clamp I've been wanting to use that can keep any BTA level while angling the forearms. Only problem there is you "separate" the bottle from the forearms, so I'm not sure what effect that will have.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Do you mind clarifying? Do you mean...

1. That (angled BTA bottle + angled aerobars) is net gain vs (level BTA bottle & level aerobars)
2. That (angled BTA bottle + angled aerobars) is net gain vs (level aerobars with no BTA bottle)
3. Both?

Thanks!


Edit for clarity

Angling forearms nets, on average, a 10-15 watt gain as long as the aero bar allows for independent adjustment of the extensions and pads, and you make other necessary adjustments (see above). You can lose a bit of that gain with a BTA simply because you're exposing more frontal area as the bottle angles with the extensions. Interestingly, there are times it just doesn't seem to matter. Go figure.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Wow, thank you very much! I'll start at 10+ deg then(I'm having somebody else do the cut so I am not sure how much and how precisely they will be able to do it). Going forward will not be a problem since my pads are clamped at the most rearward position now. I am hoping this change will enable me to go "narrower", as the pads are in the most outward position.

While I have you here (I am very grateful) that also means I'll most likely need extensions (bars do rotate upward). I was thinking of the profile design T1+ because they seem to have the most "stack" for the hand. I run mechanicals shimano shifters. Is there more suitable extensions out there? Or is that good enough? I read that you prefer S-bends but I don't know that the contact points would be corrects by running S-bends.

T1's are great, and the bend we use most often. I don't prefer s-bend, but when we're dealing with UCI regulations (end of shifter, inline with the extension, no more than 10cm above the center of the pad), we can achieve more pad angle with them which provides greater benefit (aero & comfort) to the athlete. A ski bend will point the shifter up and gets us to 10cm too quickly.

The 10cm rule, by the way, is often pretty close to what's optimal aerodynamically (assuming s-bend).

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Yep, as the article notes, this is nothing new, it practically goes back to the first use of aero bars.

Yes - when we first got on the aero-bars, in 1988, I thought we were emulating the hand and arm position of downhill skiers in their tucks. That's the way we set ourselves up, with zero outside guidance or input from any other sources.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Thanks! Since I still need a BTA, now to figure out if I can go standard bottle+holder or can use the straw on my Profile Design HC & refill on the angle.

And yet we still hear how fast straight/level bars are. Ventus, anyone?

On your desktop do you have a list of posts that start with, "Back in 1988...." that you just copy-and-paste?

I think Andy Coggan has the same, only his are, "Back in 1995...."

Fixed your post for you.

Fair point. What about the Tririg Alpha X? From the Web page that bar doesn't look very adjustable in extension tilt, though I could be wrong. I'm really happy that the bar I happen to have used for a while, the HED Corsair, is infinitely adjustable in tilt, and takes about 30 seconds to do, so I can get back to full UCI-legality should I need to.

On your desktop do you have a list of posts that start with, "Back in 1988...." that you just copy-and-paste?

I think Andy Coggan has the same, only his are, "Back in 1995...."

Trail,

Perhaps YOU don't find input and comments from folks like, Andy, myself and others who have a depth of years and years of experience, helpful. That's fine. I respect that.

The fact is, many others do!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

No, I do find them helpful. You both are great resources. This thread has inspired a new round of experimentation in me though I've already had an fairly "up-tilted" position for the past two years. Intended not as a slight, but as brotherly ribbing....

No, you're right. No extension/pad tilt.

I get that Nick wants to maintain his design and not go to a round basebar/clamp that would allow for infinite pad/extension adjustment, but I would like to see him incorporate a cam mechanism like Enve to get pad/extension tilt. The rest of the Alpha design could stay the same (though I would love to see the base bar narrow to maybe 38cm or so - but that is really dancing on the head of a pin compared to the benefit of adding pad/extension tilt).

See yellow highlighted cam mechanism:

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Can you speak to the differences in aero benefit you see between a set up that involves angling the entire set up upward to achieve forearms angled upward as opposed to simply having forearms titled upward through the use of ski bends or other extensions that angle upward while keeping the base bar level.

I'm obviously not Jim, but from having read several of these threads, the consensus is that you don't want to angle the base bar. They're designed to be aero at zero pitch, not 15 degrees pitch. You want independently tiltable extensions.

Its cuts the aero benefit dramatically, though we typically still see a gain. How much depends on the base bar, but you can figure losing at least half the gain.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Let me clarify my question... there are probably 3 (maybe more?) ways to angle arms upward....(1) tilting the entire base bar; (2) just tilting the extensions independently of the base bar; (3) keeping base bar and extensions at the same angle of each other but using an extension type that necessarily angles the forearms upward (i.e., ski bend). My understanding is that Jim's article focused on number 2 and I was asking for a comparison of numbers 2 and 3. This sorta seemed to answered in the thread earlier but not exactly. I believe Jim answered a question about s v. Ski bends combined with independent extension pads tilts. I am simply looking at the aero benefit of achieving an upward angle through S or ski bends

Intended not as a slight, but as brotherly ribbing....

Trail,

I am sorry for snapping. I could not tell. Perhaps a :-) or Pink if you are so inclined.


Thank you for the kind words.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Thank you! Will proceed shortly.

Someone needs to be creative and figure out how to tilt the extensions on the TriRig bars.

I might take a look this weekend. I am sure it can be done.

Bingo!!

Someone more creative than me!!!

Yeah I probably should have mentioned that I am on the TriRig Alpha bars myself - so not slamming their product so much as wishing this feature was included.

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Nick is a super smart guy, so I think if he saw enough demand he'd come up with an alternate mount pretty quick. He's the guy that came up with the ultra low mount for the original Speed Concept, which might have been his first "product" now that I think of it.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Understood but the one thing in life I have learned is that when you want something sometimes you just have to do it yourself.

I build something similar for an IA. For now its still just in nylon, but after a wind tunnel visit later this year, I'm going to cnc these.
There is a wedge on the bottom, then the extension clamp, then an inverse wedge on top so there is something flat to clamp to.
I built out ones for 7.5 -15 degrees (I think this was a 12.5... that I was sizing for fit). To your point, Im guessing a similar thing would be doable for the tririg.




You can saee the extra height compared to one that is just slightly nudged up(4 degrees) with a conical washer underneath it

Don't you also get a negative effect by exposing more of a horizontal BTA, with hands higher, ie. should BTA be raised also, while keeping it horizontal? Like here, where extensions are angled, but BTA left at same height as before. I could add more spacers and get longer bolts for the cage.

I'm not Jim, but I have been fit by Jim and also independently pre-Jim worked out the benefits of reach and aerobar tilt so I'll comment a little.

It's more than just the sum of parts a+b+c. it's a synergy of a few things that when done right is a very fast and comfortable setup. If you understand the "Cobb Slam" then imagine this as a aerobar corollary to that.

first of all, extended reach forces you to shrug to get there, if you don't move the seat forward. Shrugging is fast aerodynamically as well know. But with a flat aerobar pad and straight extensions, it didn't feel comfortable *to me* to have that position with the bars slammed, and it was hard to get "low". So it was either raise bars, go slow, or come up with something else.

I quickly discovered that ski bend extensions and tilted aerobar pads gave me a "backboard" or "foundation" for my shrugged and turtled upper body to lean into. This had the ancillary benefit of wanting to move my butt *back*, engaging glutes a little better, while relaxing back and relaxing arms. I also discovered that it "locked" my shrug and turtle in, so I could then just relax even more and still have that position. Finally, I found that this new configuration made it very easy to actually *reach* the previously "extra" reach I had thrown in, so even more relaxation resulted which is also fast.

That said, Jim helped me discover that by going even lower, and tilting even more, I could get lower and tilt more if that makes sense. By now I was at well below "recommended" pad stack and it still felt comfortable. No adjustments to crank length or weird saddle tilt necessary. He of course also validated my position, and with his great aerodynamic memory helped me to be sure that it was fast even though we didn't test.

For me, on my P5, I tilted the pads with washers under the front of the pads and got the biggest ski bends from USE/Tula on Wiggle or PBK or something. I really lock the heels of my palms into the "hook" of the shifter cluster as it exits the extension.

I also used diagonal Zipp Vuka Wing extenders to get extra reach on the P5. This was a work-around to the no longer existing Aduro Extra Low which would have been perfect for Jim's model of fitting.

Jim let me know if this PDF is your IP and I'll remove.

Eric

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Good stuff-thanks!

That's great feedback...would it be possible to show some photos of your hand + aerobar position, and of your whole position if possible?

PDF link not available, I'm assuming that it's ERO's IP?

weird, it shows on my post

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Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

From looking at the link, it looks like it's from your DropBox account. Perhaps we (the readers of the post) don't have access to that folder on your DropBox, hence not showing up for us but only for you?


EDITED: Nope, on my end. Must be some sort of bad setting on my computer. It still doesn't show, but I was able to download the PDF to see it.

Thanks for sharing.

Shows on mine too


Edit-shows on my phone but not computer...

notes:

position 1 had tilted aerobar pads and added reach using my patented washers and diagonal Zipp Vuka Wing technique. .24 CdA at 0 yaw in the wind tunnel.

position 2 was not tested. Just by tilting extensions up I dropped my elbows which gave me more reach which Jim then gave me on the fit bike. Frontal area is and coefficient of drag are likely very close to same, but even a small change (say, .49x.49 instead of .49x.50) would net me 10-15 watts as Jim said

point is, it's not the higher hands, per se, that makes you faster, it's the smaller frontal area and better (hopefully) Cd of the body that the higher hands (and hence the lower, tilted elbows) that the new positions avails.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I wish I could see it or download it.

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BoulderCyclingCoach.com

I use the original Ventus slammed. I have had my forearms at an angle using a steep extension bend because of comfort but I didn't understand what comfort was until I used washers under my pads to get them to match the angle of my arms. Because of the added comfort, I can get lower. a couple of mm's of washers probably gets me a cm or two lower.

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BoulderCyclingCoach.com

It doesn't show for me either (tried different browsers). If you copy the link location and paste it into the browser, that will get you the pdf.

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No coasting in running and no crying in baseball

You are getting it. Now only if you had a long and low Tri bike, which they don't make anymore, which is Jim's position re: the industry and an aero bike fit

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I wish my P3c and P4 TT bikes were longer and lower. I am into speed and its nice when speed and comfort intersect.

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BoulderCyclingCoach.com

ok some pics:

diagonal Zipp Vuka Wing P5 Aduro mod (patent pending):


Venus wide arm reach mod (for my old 58cm P4):


Pre ERO fit (w/ P5 mod, tilted pads, ski bends):


Jim's suggestion (note - felt more comfortable than first fit even though I was lower and more slammed):

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

The industry has moved in the direction of satisfying a mediocre average positioning philosophy that is propagated by timid professional fitters who focus on getting folks comfortable without worrying about whether they're also fast. Would be nice if a manufacturer would show some courage and make a long and low bike again. Cervelo used to but then they sold out.

I guess I shouldn't rant so much about a state of affairs that allows a mediocre geezer like me to still post top 10-15% bike splits on a crappy FTP. But the tools and knowledge that have allowed me to do that aren't trade secrets anymore so it's really on all those folks that don't take advantage of such knowledge.

I have an alpha installed on my felt and wasn't using the spacers that came with the it, so I tried cutting one at an angle to see how it looked. In my opinion I see no reason this wouldn't work. I was worried about the taper head bolt that clamps it all together causing issues with it sitting at an angle in the arm rest cup, but it looks good. Doing this will cause more stack, but since I have a bayonet stem I can simple adjust the stem.

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Heath

Do you have any pictures you can share?

I think it would be great for Nick to produce some wedge shaped parts that could be used and maybe do them at 10 degrees.

Not sure if the picture will come through. If so, I didnt get the toe in on the lower bar(no wedge spacers) so there is more rise that what it shows in the picture. There are two different thickness of spacers and would be limited on the shallow shim on how much rise you can get out it. The spacers were easy cut. I used fine line tape to mark where i wanted to cut with the cut off wheel. I didnt cut right up to the tape then used air grinder to finish off the remaining material.

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Heath

Here is what I did. I ride TT's and have a Shiv TT bike. I use the 3T ski bend extensions. I tested last year at A2 and at Carson and both times a higher hand position produced a lower CdA. Zipp RTC shifters also helped raise my hands. But as many have said, the higher hand position means an angled forearm and that left either the point of my elbow resting in the arm rest or just the back edge of the arm rest supporting my forearm depending on how I could position the arm rests.
Ideally I wanted the arm rests to be angled at the same angle of my forearms so that that my forearms would be supported by the full length of the arm rests. I tried to get a couple of local CNC and 3-D Print shops in town to make me some angled spacers but either they were not interested or wanted too much $.
So I contacted Fibre Lyte in the UK and they were able make these aero wedge spacers at a very reasonable price. I had them make them with a 10 degree angle. They fit right below the arm rests and above the aero bars so the arm rests are now at a 10 degree angle and fully support my forearms. Much more comfortable!

http://www.fibre-lyte.co.uk/...icycleintropage.html

That's exactly what mine ended up looking like by using a the cutoff wheel and an angle grinder. I'm going to try what I have now then if I want more I will pick up the taller spacers so I can get more angle then what the shallower spacer would allow.

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Heath

Can anyone recommend a solution for a Profile Design Aeria bar? I have S-bend extensions already but I'd like to achieve more angle without just tilting the bar up.

Thanks for the insights on your website and on the aero camp posts. I,ve just turned up my pro missle base bar/ski extensions from 6 to 13 degrees and much more comfortable. As an added bonus I seem to be able to generate a small amunt of extra power on my first turbo session since the change.

Have you tested the torhans aero 30 (which I use), with upturned bars? My bro science thinks it would be potentially fare better than the standard BTAs and not really lose its benefits.

I noticed that as well; I felt very strong on that position.

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The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev

That's the hydration system I use on the P5, and if nothing else it looks great. I like to think it's very aero as well.

there's plenty of this here on ST if you search. I believe it was Jim@ERO who was the first to find that as long as the Torhans 30 was snug against the head tube, it was a fast hydration option.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Got a picture of your final setup?

can you walk us through what you did

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Follow me on Twitter @CK21TRHC
I use what I love: ISM, Blue70, Trek, FLO

what I did with my bike? My fit? Or with Jim@ERO?

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

So I need some clarity and maybe just misread some posts. I have new p3 w/ 3T breeza II LTD w 3T ski bends. When you guys are talking about cutting and angling parts. Are you cutting/angling spacers on the head tube? cutting/angling risers under the arm pads? For those adding washers, are you putting the washer in between the base bar and extension clip mount or are you placing the washer between the armpad cradle and extension clip mount?

I have plenty of spacers on head tube to remove to get myself lower. I just purchased a longer stem (10mm, is that enough or need more?) I can probably lower my base bar 20-25mm more if need to.

I need new cables on bike so starting to think about setting up new fit first. Sorry if i already asked a previously posted question.

Risers under the arm pads. Angling the base bar @ 10-15% with head spacers is not the best option of the two.

I put small washers under the front of pad holder. Whatever you're attaching your pad holder to, put washers between that and your pad holder on the front to tip it up. run the bolt through the washers. Be sure to use some Loctite and use a torque wrench.

Do this at your own risk w/ carbon pad holders.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Yea have to keep the basebars parallel.. I have carbon arm pad cradles and carbon aero extensions. When y'all add washers or angle the risers, do you get longer bolts or can you still use the standard bolts.

Pictures from the Etixx-Quick Step on Pez Cycling shows some photos of Tony Martin playing with a new TT position.

With his forearms tilted up at (SWAG) 10-15-deg from horizontal...interesting, very interesting...wonder if they did some (more?) wind tunnel testing or what the impetus was for the change.

are the extensions independent of the base bar or integrated?

If separate, tilt the whole thing while keeping the base bar level and aerodynamic.

if fixed, put washers under the front of the arm pad holder to tilt the arm pads and then get super big ski bend extensions to get the height for 15 degrees of upward tilt.

EDIT: OK, I looked for a picture of your bars. You need washers under the pads, and then ski bend extensions. You can play around with putting various ones in backwards to get the height.

I ordered Use Tula aluminum extensions from the UK, 50 degree ones.

EDIT 2: you really ought to do yourself a favor and a) get a good fit from a reputable fitter as your body is the # 1 cause of drag and b) if you're really fast, you should have a better aerobar, like 3T Ventus or TriRig Alpha X

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

fastest option here is to slam the stem (ie. remove steerer spacers) and then use aero risers under the extensions to raise the extensions AND the pads, as a unit, back up to your desired stack height.

See my post above showing the stack of my 3T Ventus bars.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I know the ventus or alpha would have been faster, but i had the aura pro (raised bar ends), for christmas I got a ton of amazon gift cards and found the breeza(flat bar ends, 1/2 lb lighter) for $280 (normally 800-1,000). Had enough to cover the cost so i got them.

I have been retul fitted and we played w praying mantis position but was too uncomfortable and out on the road, i could barely hold straight line. I have decent fit (19* back angle). I originally had the base bar slammed but to play w the praying mantis, he raised my base bar and etc. I am looking to go back to slamming my stem and getting my hand a bit above my elbows for a bit more cush and bit more speed.

How many washers are you putting to angle the bars up? Do i need to get a longer screw so that its still secured?

Agreed- heaps of info on the Aero 30. My question was more about what happens when you angle it up. I.e. In my old position, it was about 2 inches at top and bottom of the rear part of bottle in relation to the headtube. When I angle up the base bars/extensions, I therefore angle up the Aero 30. So instead of it being set up near horizontal, its on an angle. the top is still 2 inches from the headset, but the bottom is now approx 3 inches. Now, even if this means the aero 30 is no longer 'adding a few watts', if it is still neutral, then it is still potentially better than a traditional BTA which is potentially no longer drag neutral due to angle of extensions. FYI - yes, I'm being pedantic...

Like 5 washers, I do use a longer bolt and loctite

If you're not comfortable with hands up you're likely not doing it right. It should be *more* comfortable

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Yeah I think that falls into the "have to test individually" area

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Even Tony Martin is testing with angling his arms. Doing the opposite of what Jim says. Less reach and more drop.

Less reach? Tony is locked into either 75 or 80cm on reach depending on where he has his saddle (guessing 5cm setback, which means 80 is his max). Not sure that is opposite of what Jim recommends, it just means that Tony is much more constrained with reach than any of us are.

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My YouTubes

Might I ask what you paid for it?
Was considering buying a chainring might as well get something similar for my Ventus.

I know he is constrained by the rules, but looking at pictures from before, he has slightly less reach (could also be because of the dropped torso).
I recall him saying he had his arm like he had before because he pulled strongly with his arms, from experience I can tell that his position like he has (upper arms) in the new pictures allows him to still pull hard on his arms, but not constantly pulling yourself forward. Its actually quite close to my own position

Stalkan is correct. Tony's reach is limited by UCI regulations to 75cm without an exemption, or 80cm with an exemption. In his case, his saddle is sufficiently behind his bottom bracket to allow for him to take the reach exemption, but it still isn't enough. We have women who are 5'2" who take the reach exemption. In fact, virtually every pro takes the reach exemption. In the end, we need more reach; the UCI will give us 10 degrees of seat angle (who needs that?), but no more reach. Drives me crazy.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Our club nationals, here in NZ, are run under UCI rules (at least for the past 5 years) and the 75/80cm reach rule catches people out every year. Guys hacking off their extensions, cutting down the levers on their shimano shifters, removing shifters entirely, tilting/rotating bars, adjusting seats frantically just before their TT start times.

I just don't understand why the rules are so tight just to prevent the outlaw positions.

Jim, how do you figure Brad Wiggins and Taylor Phinney get around the reach restriction? They both look fairly "laid out" and not at all cramped like Tony Martin does.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

If you're 190cm or taller you get 85cm of reach. It's a bit ridiculous to have the cut off at a fixed number like that though.

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

I blame today's mfr's and yesterday's enthusiasm with seat tube angles and the amour de low. At 1.83m tall and on one of my TT bikes, I can get ~90 cm reach and be completely UCI legal without an exemption...but, I don't have any skin in this game, so YMMV.

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=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================

Doesn't look within the 10 cm window for the pad-tip of extension difference rule to me. I wonder how they figure it is UCI legal?

Do you mean that you don't get any more aero if you stretch past the UCI reach limit? My experience: I don't know any elite TTer whose CdA doesn't continue improving until they take at least one UCI exemption.

And, yes, we make darned sure there's no saddle-hopping.

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AndyF
bike geek

It probably depends what the measurement points are. I recall a picture of the UCI rules where it's stated that all measurements are taken from the front of the pads. But perhpas somebody knows it for sure?
And it probably also looks more (due to his rlbows being lower still) than it really is.

There is no rule to hold the measurment point at the end of the extension with the hands.

The armpad drop measurement is taken from the lowest point of the top of the armpads.

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AndyF
bike geek

I'm saying I can get ~90cm reach and be UCI legal without an exemption on one of my TT bikes. If you can find me a low cxa frame manufactured in the last several years with which I can achieve the same setup, I'd be interested.

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=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================

I apologise, I may not be following the thread carefully enough. Just to be sure... you do mean, reach, as in BB centre to tip of extensions?

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AndyF
bike geek

haha, not that I race TTs with marshals, but I'm exactly 1.9m tall. good to know.

where do they measure from?

Needless to say, as a BOP triathlete, when I did my fit w/ Jim@ERO the UCI rules were not at all a consideration.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

So much win.

=)

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Like any height measurement I imagine. Not sure how that whole process works practically though.. I'm 189 with a longish torso and long arms so I'm f*cked. I stopped doing TT's because of how they measure reach to the shifters now when I don't get the 85cm of reach.

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

From a CxA perspective, if I was trying to easily quantify how stretched out a rider was, I would use terms like reach and drop...and I wouldn't define reach as the UCI conforming dimension. I can get ~90cm of reach and still conform to UCI regs without an exemption on one of my TT bikes - and I'm only 1.83m tall with about 8-10cm of drop. I don't think folks should blame the UCI for not being able to stretch themselves/their riders out - they should blame today's mfrs and yesterday's idea of "rotating around the BB" which fueled a disease of "lowness". If you are only 7cm behind the BB with a normal saddle at a saddle height of 80-85cm and you play by UCI rules, you should be saying WTF to your bike sponsor.

getting back on track here..."High hands" where the center of rotation is not the elbow, is just another way of modifying the point in space of the elbow vertically and axially within the UCI rules (i.e, this rotation effects how stretched out/low the elbow is)...so why wouldn't one explore it?

IME, if you control for elbow position vertically/axially, cxa doesn't change much - just for fun check out this vid I did moons ago:

http://www.biketechreview.com/images/the_shrug.wmv

you can do all sorts of crap with your hands/forearm angle, but if your elbow doesn't move much vertically/axially, how low/stretched out your torso is doesn't change much.

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=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================

So from the back edge then?

on the recommendation to add reach--are we talking about moving the pads further out or just the extensions? or both?

I'd be interested in these as well... what did you pay?

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

For those with a fixed position on the extensions, these extensions from Zipp should give you enough rise in the hands:



Zipp Vuka Alumina 110

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''Sweeney - you can both crush your AG *and* cruise in dead last!! 😂 '' Murphy's Law

those are great! Here's what I use: USE Tula 50* extensions.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I just went to get fit for an IA16 and I brought the extensions for the original CarbonX. They give 13 cm of rise. The old extensions are going on the new bike.

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''Sweeney - you can both crush your AG *and* cruise in dead last!! 😂 '' Murphy's Law

OK, so i'm looking at this and i don't understand how this works. are you using everyting stock? bars, spacers etc? I guess i'm missing the holes where the pads attach. can you possibly post some more pictures of how it all goes together? I have a SHIV TT as well and i'd love to angle my pads up.
Thanks!

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Street by street, block by block!

This thread, and the ERO post was really helpful. I just had a professional fit done on my (relatively new) P5-6 and wanted to try the angled arm position. We swapped out the standard extensions for Profile T4s that were inserted backwards. Using spacers, we angled the pad holders up, not quite identical in slope to the extensions, but enough that you can really feel the support you. We added reach, and moved me to a bit more slack angle than I was before. Only two rides in, but this position is incredibly comfortable. The angled arms really do allow you to lean into the bars, supporting the rest of your position and allowing for a more relaxed upper body.

Per this thread, I am ordering angled risers from Fibre Lyte. One thing I am going to add are some rubber washers between the bolt head and the armpad cup. They hit at an angle and I would like some thing there to deform and absorb a bit of the stress.

What are your thoughts around some of the bars mentioned above that don't bend until 6+ inches beyond the stem? Would they test similar to ones that angled from the basebar? A bit less aero than the stem angled ones, but better than stock?

I did something similar, but fitting 25 or 30 degree (can't remember) Use Tula extensions in reverse. Because the upturn is closer to the extension clamps, you get more rise for less angle, if you get my drift. The advantage, for me at least, is that the front of the extension where I rest my hands isn't angled up quite so steep, which I find more comfortable. Worth thinking about if anyone is considering this approach.

To illustrate (I wish this was me, but it isn't...):

please let us know the cost and logistics of getting those Fibre Lyte risers

thx

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Will do. Working through it now. Happy to arrange a group buy to save on shipping from the UK and potentially cost.

I may be interested if cost is reasonable--let me know!

I'm not fully understanding what these wedges look like set up on the bike--do you have close up pics with them installed?

Yes, I'm interested as well!

Here's my angled shim. It's 12 degrees. If anyone wants the file to have it printed just let me know.

-Scoot

I think that looks like a better solution than the carbon shim. I am interested!

Sure. DM me.

Scott

Unless I'm mistaken, the underside of the bolt will still be horizontal. How did you account for this? Do you have a picture of it installed that shows this condition? Thanks.

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I wondered the same, on the carbon shim also. What I'd do is counterbore vertically into the angled surface with a diameter the same as the bolt head.

Just so you know, I got a 10.5* rise using an angle gauge with those Zipp 110 extensions;



Moved the pads back to right at my elbows. Easy to do.

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''Sweeney - you can both crush your AG *and* cruise in dead last!! 😂 '' Murphy's Law

Exactly, so that the bolt hole in the wedge is at a vertical/right angle to the bolt hole the bolt is being threaded into. The bolt/bolt head may not fit perfectly into arm rest hole (depends on how large the hole is and how much wiggle room there is) but that arm rest hole can be easily opened up with a small drill.

Slot the shim instead of doing holes.

What's the stock angle as pictured for the 110 bars?

I just measured and got 36* for the bend in the bar and a rise of 11mm from the pad to the top of the shifter base.

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''Sweeney - you can both crush your AG *and* cruise in dead last!! 😂 '' Murphy's Law

So when on the bike you get around 10-11 degrees lift on arms?

If I understand you, when the fitter was setting me up on the bike I had him put the angle gauge on my forearm with me in the aero position and he got 10.5*. That was early on in the set up. We did find that the Zippp Vuka allows you to crank up the angle and we did change the pad position, so it is probably some other angle right now.

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''Sweeney - you can both crush your AG *and* cruise in dead last!! 😂 '' Murphy's Law

I use a flat head bolt to address the angle. It's not a perfect fit, but it is stable enough.

Scott

Looks like Martin is racing with angled extensions. Didn't win today, though.

he just beat tony martin and his new position with his classic position!

:D

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The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev

I don't think that's definitive evidence either way about the usefulness of either position.

Impressive that Cancellara manages to get so stretched out with that arm/shoulder position. That would wear me out. On the other hand, even with angled-up arms Martin doesn't seem to stretch out at all, or does he always have a more rounded back?

Fab rotates his hip more than Martin.

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The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev

What's really surprising to me is the lack of round bottles on both TT bikes. Maybe the pros are getting smarter...

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Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)

it was a 20min TT; water is overrated ha!

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The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev

he just beat tony martin and his new position with his classic position!

Doesn't Cancellara look unusually ripped for early season? Think he might be hungry for some wins this year.

Impressive that Cancellara manages to get so stretched out with that arm/shoulder position. That would wear me out. On the other hand, even with angled-up arms Martin doesn't seem to stretch out at all, or does he always have a more rounded back?

What do you mean by "stretch out"? Both of these guys are tall enough that they are probably at the UCI limit for reach. Martin has always had a rounded back (last few years anyway) but he gets his shoulders very narrow.

YES

I noticed the same thing!

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The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev

Does anyone know what risers and extensions TM is using on his Shiv? It is hard to tell in the picture but the risers do not look like the stock Shiv risers. The arm rests look like the D2Z custom arm rests. The extensions look very interesting. A short flat section where they bolt to the risers. Then the sharp angled longer section. Then the final short section at the top that kind of spill forward for hand position. It also looks like the arm rests have been moved forward a couple of inches and are bolted to the angled section of the extensions instead of directly over the risers. The setup solves all of the problems discussed in this thread.

Something works for him, obviously. But at a glance Martin looks upright and crowded on that bike.

I like angled up extensions, and partly because it makes it easier to hold the position and scoot my ass back and stretch out on the bike. While to me this seems the direct result of angling my arms up, neither Cancellara's nor Martin's photo would seem to support that idea -- Cancellara doesn't seem to tire with his forearms flat and elbow and shoulders at 90*, and Martin doesn't look like he's using much of his saddle. You're right, though -- a quick search for TT photos shows that Martin usually rides with a more rounded back, even when he rode with flat extensions/forearms.

Still, in general doesn't angling the extensions up allow more reach? And isn't a flat, more stretched out torso more aero? I'm only guessing here (no wind tunnel for me), but I thought that was the consensus.

Martin is obviously not too concerned about comfort. Else he wouldn't be putting sandpaper on his saddle that sometimes rubs through is shorts and his skin. Search online if interested.

No hard and fast rules in this unfortunately. I'm pretty sure he has spent a lot of time refining his position, and he was world TT champ a few years. And unlike Cancellara, Martin hasn't displayed a monster engine in other events. So I have to assume he has the aero down pretty well.

Here is a front view of Martin when he had his forearms angled down a little. I'd guess that his position facilitates getting very narrow, and that is how he achieves low drag.



Flat forearms are pretty standard for pros. They were restricted from raising them very much, but that rule was relaxed this year. So we should see more of them experimenting with angled forearms.

Would a BTA work with that setup? Seems like you don't have enough horizontal real estate to mount a bottle flat.

You can get the BTA bottle horizontal with the included Aduro bottle cage mount, but depending on the length of bottle it will extent past your forearms. I think the results have been mixed on running a horizontal BTA with upturned arms. Still, I think the potential drag increase from this setup is better than a down tube bottle, or in my case a behind the saddle bottle (I sit too far forward on the saddle to have the bottle extend the area close to my rump).

I will run no bottle for shorter TTs, and will figure our a small bottle solution for 40ks - the longest distance I race.

Makes sense and with you doing TTs the need for hydration is less. Nice looking bike for sure.

Didn't Martin go solo( nearly) for an entire stage of the TDF in 2014(?) for the win He's got quite the engine

He has good W/CdA even on the road bike. But that isn't unusual, considering.

Winning a stage in the Tour is nothing like riding away from the field in major 1 day races, which Cancellara has done several times.

Did the angle mount myself this morning with a hand file. Marked out what I thought would be close to 10 degrees but wanted to leave a little there for trial. I just added an angle find app to my phone and it appears that it worked out to 8 degrees. I can tweak it a bit if I want. Took 5 minutes to complete this and it works perfect.

Nice job.

8 degrees is what I settled on with my fitter. Extensions are angled up more.

Hi BMANX, quick question(s) on this if you don't mind

1) Is the riser you grinded aluminum or carbon?
2) Did you just mark where 10 degrees would be on the side of the riser and then filed down one end to that point?
3) Do you think this affects the integrity of the bolts that keep the risers in place now that it is at an angle? My bolts are inserted on the underside of the bar, into the risers, and I can't wrap my head around how this would work if the bottom of the riser is not perpendicular to the bar.

Thanks!

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