Yeah, I've seen it done, and concentric washers help a little, but machining spacers would be the best way to go. We've spoken to a few manufacturers and they're understanding the need to angle pads and extensions independently. We have a few prototypes headed our way for testing over the Fall.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Hi Jim, I concur that the industry has certainly gone to shorter reach, probably largely following triathlon race entry trends where we see the bulk of participants being 35-59 years old, with deep wallets but not very flexible bodies (I get it that with a good fit, you don't need to be that flexible, but still, a 49 year old, 30 lbs overweight is not going to be the same as a 30 year old). So back in the day, you had people riding the P3 ALU with a massive spacer stack and short stems. Now you get the new P3 and basically the bike fills that gap, rather than spacers and short stems....which of course does not help the FOP athlete, but it sells more bikes at the shop to the bulk of buyers. In my case, am feeling like my new P3 has too much stack and now looking to get an angled down stem to get a bit lower (for several years getting lower was a non option due to a neck injury, but now I think I am ready). I literally have the shortest torso on the planet for my height (well, some Kenyans also built for heat dissipation have long limbs and no torso too).

I always thought Jan Ullrich's 2003 TdF set up was somewhat stupid and not sure exactly why people followed it. Always been on ski bends other than 1 year where my bike came with straights which I figured out how to use, but could never angle my forearms up since the bar was integrated to the base bar.

Old perhaps, yes, but UCI rule changes make it new. Even though the level-forearm rule was removed in early 2014 with the clarification of Article 1.3 on TT measurements, a surprising number of commissaires still think it's in effect.

I think that UCI-imposed horizontal-forearm position tricked a lot of IM athletes into going level-forearm too, thinking that pro cyclists knew something they didn't. And from the lack of bar tilt adjustability of most frame manufacturers' aerobars, it seemed to have tricked the manufacturers, too.

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AndyF
bike geek

What does that do to your power output? I would assume that most of the gains come from riding lower (elbows end up lower at angled position vs parallel) - so there also would be a change at the hip area. Does that impact power output?

that's a red herring if you're getting fit right. A good TT position is as comfortable as an upside-down easy chair. You want to engage the big muscles.

besides, if not, that's what shorter cranks are for :)

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Along with the UCI rules, I blame Dan's F.I.S.T. protocol as well. Supporting yourself "skeletally" with near-vertical upper arms has never been the way to minimize aero drag.

FWIW, below is my TT position from the early/mid-1990s. It was developed by eyeballing/copying what the likes of what, e.g., Boardman et al. were doing pre-Superman, then further refined based on wind tunnel testing at Texas A&M (thank you, again, John Cobb!).



Unfortunately, due to UCI rules I've since had to shorten my reach almost 10 cm, even when availing myself of the morphological exception. This has resulted in a significant increase in my CdA, at least/especially at low yaw angles.

This looks to be "in between" Boardman's Corima World Hour Record and his Superman World Hour record (52 kph and 56 kph respectively if I recall correctly). Boardman was saying that the single biggest gain was "eliminating those tubes" from his profile (he was pointing to his biceps) and smoothing the air flow from the hands over the arms-shoulder-head. So I can see how the in between position makes sense, but at the same time, how do we hold it for a full IM or even half IM. By the way, love the Hooker Elite bike.

For the other guy above, my Felt Devox bars have fixed extension angles and so to be able to keep the base bar flat whilst raising my hands I bought some Use Tula extensions (aluminium) which I mount in reverse.

But then your forearms are not sitting flat on the pads, which are also fixed to the base bar. Do you have a solution for that?

Mine squish a lot down over time, so the bar pads become angled. Actually, I gain a few mm extra drop on old pads vs. new.

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I have a solution "in mind" but haven't done it yet. I do think it is worth having the pads angled in line with the effective bar angle, as it were, for comfort. I'm planning to take a scalpel to my Cee Gees, or try something with different length pad bolts front and back and maybe bevelled washers, or something. But more likely modifying the Cee Gees, I reckon there is enough thickness to play with and get close if I can bond some velcro to the back of it.

my solution is that the elbows are on the pads and the point of support. no forearm touches the pads, pads are essentially a big wasted space

See previous comments by Jim and AndyF: the lower your elbow pads, the further out you need to reach to relieve tension in your upper body. The limiting factors, then, become 1) power output, and 2) possible neck pain (from craning your head to peer up the road, if only occasionally).

Ditto (see pic above). It's all about finding the neutral balance point (i.e., if you let go of the aerobars, your forearm angle shouldn't really change).

What do you do if you use a BTA hydration?

Do you angle it with the aerobars and lose the ability to fill all the way to the top?
Or do you try to keep it level by MacGuyvering it with some tie wraps?

I've got an Profile Design Aero HC, so it doesn't "drop" below my arms." I assume that these things are designed to be most aero when they're horizontal (that is, when they're on they're own), but I don't know how the interplay between them and my arms would work....

my solution is that the elbows are on the pads and the point of support. no forearm touches the pads, pads are essentially a big wasted space

Interesting. Comfortable? Any pics?

Oops, you just gave away the key piece, Andy. You're bad for business! ;-)

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AndyF
bike geek

Sorry! However, if people haven't realized/don't know that already, then either 1) they're not very analytical, or 2) their google-fu is suspect.

I don't understand why you're "terrified" of making further changes. It's quite possible you're leaving further gains on the table. If you carefully document your current position before further experimentation, what's the downside?

If you have a powermeter, try the Chung method. I've used it and while it's a bit tricky, if you're careful it can be a very effective method. I like it because it lends itself to ongoing experimentation. I did a wind tunnel test last year and it was mostly a waste of time, which might be partly a function of the particular local tunnel I used, not one of the well-known ones. My big gains in CdA have all been as a result of my own experimentation, not a fit or tunnel. At this point I'm going to use the Chung method for further refinement. Now if I can just get over my self-consciousness about riding loops over and over again in my neighborhood in full aero kit...

The trick is to buy a set of conical washers.
I'm sure you can get what you need at home depot.

I used these though (different frame). By putting the washer under the screw head, you can maintain flush contact on both sides
http://www.jensonusa.com/...HPkMgCFQuraQodvGQNJA

I've thought about conical washers which would allow for the tilt. However, how do you produce the tilt? Grind down a spacer into a wedge for each bar? I'm open to ideas, if you've got any. I'm on a version 1 Trek SC9 with the TriRig aerobar clamp adapters. I may just have to swap back to the original hardware which allows for tilting of the aerobars/pads independent of the base bar. But it's so much weight...

I checked your link but I don't see any images so I don't know what you're recommending.

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Agree with that. The angle of the pads doesn't really matter much if the elbows are positioned almost mid pad. Very stable way to set up a position as well.

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

Oh, I use a conical washer for the tilt also.
So one washer goes in between bar and the holder on the front side.

IE the stack would look like this for the front

Conical Washer
Arm pad
Tririg Holder
Conical Washer
Base bar

and for the back, you would leave out the conical washer at the bottom

Hey Jim, any chance you are thinking of getting some parts made to allow angling of 3t aduro armpads? I have the up angled forarms by using USE ski bend extensions but that puts my hands up leaving the pads level which isn't comfy.

You might get the aero benefit, but the main reason we do this is for comfort; aero is just icing on the cake for us. Comfort comes from using the angle of the arm pad to lean into resulting in a relaxed upper body. Somebody mentioned it's harder to look forward with arms angled up. If that's the case, they did it wrong; it gets much, much easier to crane if you do it correctly. I'll give you an example.

Yesterday I worked with a BOP triathlete training for her first Ironman. She's been unable to ride more than 60 miles because of pain and numbness in her neck. Chiropractors, Physical Therapists, Acupuncture - she tried them all to no avail. She thought raising her aero position was the answer, but it wasn't. I angled her forearms, gave her a bit more reach, and sent her out for a ride. She rode over 100 miles. She said she was so comfortable, she just kept going! I want my athletes to enjoy the added support of the angled arm pads. You can place your elbows on the pads and achieve the arm angle, but you'll miss out on the biggest advantage to the adjustment.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports