Not sure I agree with you on that. If the elbows are placed on the pads, extensions are put at the correct length and the angle of them places the shifters just high enough it essentially achieves the same thing you're talking about ime. Of course it's easier to angle up the pads and the extensions independently of the base bar but it's not always an option. I actually prefer the elbows further out most of the time anyway for comfort and because it can help make it easier to hold a good position(especially if cockpit position is narrow). Not saying this to convince you(and I probably couldn't anyway!) but to give a different alternative to at least try for those who are experimenting with the angled forearm approach but can't angle the pads easily.

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

I concur, absolutely nothing uncomfortable with elbow on pads, at least for me.

Time to necro this thread.

Jim, I am getting ready to do that mod on my P5. In my current position I have some issues with tension in my back so I need to try that and see if it relieves some.

I have the profile design risers under my pads, and I'm going to cut them so the pads are at an angle. My question is, what is a good angle to start with? What is the range of angles that you would recommend? I was going to start at a 10deg angle and see how that goes.

I hope somebody can help with that.

You're looking for 10-15 degrees of forearm angle, so whatever angle gets you there. Some find a little more than that is better, but most fall in this range. You'll need to simultaneously add reach; at least 1cm. Since angling your forearms will effectively lower your entire torso, you might also want to adjust drop by 5mm to 1cm.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Quick question for you. Does a BTA bottle impact the gain of a 10 degree tilt at all? I did not see that noted in your piece. I'm really interested a BTA bottle impact on a fixed base bar being tilted. Thanks!

We've had mixed results. Sometimes no effect, other times it has a negative effect (though still a net positive overall); it's never better. Profile Design sells a base bar clamp I've been wanting to use that can keep any BTA level while angling the forearms. Only problem there is you "separate" the bottle from the forearms, so I'm not sure what effect that will have.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Do you mind clarifying? Do you mean...

1. That (angled BTA bottle + angled aerobars) is net gain vs (level BTA bottle & level aerobars)
2. That (angled BTA bottle + angled aerobars) is net gain vs (level aerobars with no BTA bottle)
3. Both?

Thanks!


Edit for clarity

Angling forearms nets, on average, a 10-15 watt gain as long as the aero bar allows for independent adjustment of the extensions and pads, and you make other necessary adjustments (see above). You can lose a bit of that gain with a BTA simply because you're exposing more frontal area as the bottle angles with the extensions. Interestingly, there are times it just doesn't seem to matter. Go figure.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Wow, thank you very much! I'll start at 10+ deg then(I'm having somebody else do the cut so I am not sure how much and how precisely they will be able to do it). Going forward will not be a problem since my pads are clamped at the most rearward position now. I am hoping this change will enable me to go "narrower", as the pads are in the most outward position.

While I have you here (I am very grateful) that also means I'll most likely need extensions (bars do rotate upward). I was thinking of the profile design T1+ because they seem to have the most "stack" for the hand. I run mechanicals shimano shifters. Is there more suitable extensions out there? Or is that good enough? I read that you prefer S-bends but I don't know that the contact points would be corrects by running S-bends.

T1's are great, and the bend we use most often. I don't prefer s-bend, but when we're dealing with UCI regulations (end of shifter, inline with the extension, no more than 10cm above the center of the pad), we can achieve more pad angle with them which provides greater benefit (aero & comfort) to the athlete. A ski bend will point the shifter up and gets us to 10cm too quickly.

The 10cm rule, by the way, is often pretty close to what's optimal aerodynamically (assuming s-bend).

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Yep, as the article notes, this is nothing new, it practically goes back to the first use of aero bars.

Yes - when we first got on the aero-bars, in 1988, I thought we were emulating the hand and arm position of downhill skiers in their tucks. That's the way we set ourselves up, with zero outside guidance or input from any other sources.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Thanks! Since I still need a BTA, now to figure out if I can go standard bottle+holder or can use the straw on my Profile Design HC & refill on the angle.

And yet we still hear how fast straight/level bars are. Ventus, anyone?

On your desktop do you have a list of posts that start with, "Back in 1988...." that you just copy-and-paste?

I think Andy Coggan has the same, only his are, "Back in 1995...."

Fixed your post for you.

Fair point. What about the Tririg Alpha X? From the Web page that bar doesn't look very adjustable in extension tilt, though I could be wrong. I'm really happy that the bar I happen to have used for a while, the HED Corsair, is infinitely adjustable in tilt, and takes about 30 seconds to do, so I can get back to full UCI-legality should I need to.

On your desktop do you have a list of posts that start with, "Back in 1988...." that you just copy-and-paste?

I think Andy Coggan has the same, only his are, "Back in 1995...."

Trail,

Perhaps YOU don't find input and comments from folks like, Andy, myself and others who have a depth of years and years of experience, helpful. That's fine. I respect that.

The fact is, many others do!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

No, I do find them helpful. You both are great resources. This thread has inspired a new round of experimentation in me though I've already had an fairly "up-tilted" position for the past two years. Intended not as a slight, but as brotherly ribbing....

No, you're right. No extension/pad tilt.

I get that Nick wants to maintain his design and not go to a round basebar/clamp that would allow for infinite pad/extension adjustment, but I would like to see him incorporate a cam mechanism like Enve to get pad/extension tilt. The rest of the Alpha design could stay the same (though I would love to see the base bar narrow to maybe 38cm or so - but that is really dancing on the head of a pin compared to the benefit of adding pad/extension tilt).

See yellow highlighted cam mechanism:

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Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099

Can you speak to the differences in aero benefit you see between a set up that involves angling the entire set up upward to achieve forearms angled upward as opposed to simply having forearms titled upward through the use of ski bends or other extensions that angle upward while keeping the base bar level.

I'm obviously not Jim, but from having read several of these threads, the consensus is that you don't want to angle the base bar. They're designed to be aero at zero pitch, not 15 degrees pitch. You want independently tiltable extensions.

Its cuts the aero benefit dramatically, though we typically still see a gain. How much depends on the base bar, but you can figure losing at least half the gain.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Let me clarify my question... there are probably 3 (maybe more?) ways to angle arms upward....(1) tilting the entire base bar; (2) just tilting the extensions independently of the base bar; (3) keeping base bar and extensions at the same angle of each other but using an extension type that necessarily angles the forearms upward (i.e., ski bend). My understanding is that Jim's article focused on number 2 and I was asking for a comparison of numbers 2 and 3. This sorta seemed to answered in the thread earlier but not exactly. I believe Jim answered a question about s v. Ski bends combined with independent extension pads tilts. I am simply looking at the aero benefit of achieving an upward angle through S or ski bends

Intended not as a slight, but as brotherly ribbing....

Trail,

I am sorry for snapping. I could not tell. Perhaps a :-) or Pink if you are so inclined.


Thank you for the kind words.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog