In terms of feeling the body parts and internalizing, today after a long swim, I did a set of 4x1000m and what I did was first 2 min between 2:05-2:10, then next min at right around 2:00 and then final minute at 1:55 or less. For the final minute tried to keep eyes closed and feel like am jumping backwards from a deep squat position while holding a handle attached to a chain and making sure the handle is moving with the "jump" and not after it. Maybe another visualization is an upward jump from a deadlift position and pulling a light bar up with you and not having your hands hanging on the bar low after your butt has shot "up" (I think this would be the equivalent of sliding with no connection).

Hey, so I took your advice. Today after swimming I did 4 x 1500m, and went with the "no straps" plan. What I quickly found out was that it I used my legs properly and have a firm engagement the handle, basically my feet stay stuck on the platforms, vs coming off. It really started feeling like I was jumping backwards from a deep squat. So basically what I did spent the first 1250m with no straps, trying to keep stroke rate lower than 30 (funny how it ends up being easier if there are no straps on) and then put the staps on for the final 250m. Generally went with "eyes close" to focus on what my legs and core were doing. When I opened my eyes, I was pleasantly surprised that after the initial interval was generally hovering around low 2:1x with straps off, later it was high 2:0x and then eventually lower than 2:00 for surges.

I am also trying to work on level 0-2. I think at this lower level (not sure what the drag factor is), but you really need to pin point the force application moment to get a solid connection at the front of the stroke vs doing it at level 5 (and yes, I get that level 2 on one machine could be 5 on another, but I am using the same one).

Anyway, wanted to give you feedback on the no straps drill.

I'll be interested in going back another day when I don't have 90 minutes of hard swimming in my body before I start! Monday after work, I should be more 'fresh'.

Dev

This is the right idea. Post video, etc.

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I have to find a gym where I can video. At the city gym and pool, you're not allowed to videos. I thought the gym was free of that, but the gym supervisor was playing tough. I'll need to wait till another one is on duty and try to get someone to video me. I'll take a day or two off rowing now....maybe something about swimming 25K and rowing 4x in the same week and the personal Tour De swim+row stage event organizers are saying that the Tour is pulling into Bordeaux for a rest day from the hammering....and the thing is that now that I am a swimmer, I have this mentality that I can go hard whenever I want and the same thing is possible rowing. When you are a runner, you pick maybe 2 or 3 days per week max with huge training load! Rowing it seems possible to just pile it on every day.

Felt like some suffering today so did another 2000m tt. My goal was 1:50s and I hit 1000 in 3:36 and finished in 7:11. Very happy with that and will work on some speed as I’m guessing that is what is lacking for me to go faster as I feel my endurance is good.
I will do another tt in about 3-4w and try to break 7.

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Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon

Today was the first time I did any rowing recently where I did not have a moderately to very hard 60-90 min swim set first.

I took the input above from philly1x and did most of my rowing with no strap on the feet. I did three intervals of 1500m....first two I did 1250m no straps and then put staps on the final 250m. Generally I was cruising along at a high 2:0x to low 2:1x with no straps and right around 2:00 once I put the straps on. For the last 1500m, I put the straps on for the final 500m and kept it below 2:00 in the 1:46 to 1:58 range and just tried to close my eyes and focus on form. ~ 2 min of going really hard (for me) was enough. I don't want to overdo anything at this point as my lumbar area seems to be getting stronger with the rowing and no point breaking something that is working reasonably well (for now).

I am really enjoying working on rowing with no straps. And I am generally running on level 2 now ( I guess I better check the drag factor) as it is 'harder' for me to make that firm initial catch at the lower levels, so between having to time that better and less stress on the lumbar spine, I think this is useful.

Congrats on your crazy hard TT....sub 7 and you are averaging 300W (1:45 per 500m = 300W). What is your bike FTP like? As I mentioned earlier in the tread 1:50 is ~260W which is in the range of what my bike FTP used to be, but I think I would have to become insanely efficient to consistently row at that number. My perceived exertion at 1:50/260W is much higher than biking at that 260W. 1:50 "feels" more like 300W on the bike.

Dev

I have to try the no strap thing, I do feel like my feet are lifting a bit more than they should but I’m also pretty good at activating my legs as they are usually crushed after a hard session.
Sounds like you are making some good progress!
My bike ftp is right around 300 as well, but I definitely agree that it seems a lot tougher than on the bike. With rowing the difference in paces is huge, I probably couldn’t hold 1:40 longer than a minute which is 350w, right around what I do my 4x4s on the bike, yet 1:45 seems manageable.

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Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon

Interesting little article on rowing vs cycling watts.

http://fitwerx.com/rowers-vs-cyclists-who-has-more-power-by-dean-phillips/

I read this whole thread and I am intrigued.

It seems that Concept2 is the go to rower.

I've looked for some used ones and see a Model B with PM1 local to me real cheap. Assuming it is all functional, would this be a good starter? Can a B fold up for storage? Or, should I look longer for a Model D. Looks like the PM could be upgraded.

Are there other brands that I should consider?

I would like one that would connect to HR and at least download workouts to Strava etc. Going live to Zwift etc looks to still be a bit problematic.

This actually makes sense (copied from article):

The truth was probably some combination of both. My rowing power clearly gets lower than my cycling power as timeframes get longer. This is quite common to hear according to other athletes who have done both sports. I heard a good argument that you spend 20-30 watts going up the slide during the recovery phase of rowing that isn’t counted, so perhaps that’s a part of the discrepancy. Cycling may also simply be a more effective use of your body in producing power during longer timeframes.

Also I would add that rowing involves moving more body mass. Cycling involves moving less body mass with a better 100% secure connection to transfer or energy from potential energy to mechanical energy. In rowing you're moving a lot of body mass through the air so your blood flow has to be used just to move the body around (both in the power phase and recovery). In cycling you just have the motion of both legs. You don't have to spend energy moving the upper body around so all your cardio capacity is used to provide oxygen to legs only.

It's probably why rowing cadence selection is no much lower than cycling, because there is a cost to moving the body back and forth on the rail even if you're applying zero power to the water. That's overhead you have less of when cycling (90 revs of each leg which weighs not much relative to 30 strokes of the entire body mass). The legs add up to around 35% of body weight through a circle whose circumference is barely 1 meter in total and you're not even moving the entire mass of the leg around such a big circle....only the feet. Upper leg is being dispaced far less.

Just to be clear, my bike FTP when I was in very good bike shape was around 260W....there were a few years I got it closer to 270W at 138lbs so pretty solid as am older age grouper. I can barely survive at 260W on the rowing machine for seconds at a time, forget about doing a full 1 hour hill climb at that effort. Let's see where I can get technically in time in row. It's barely been a month at this.

Gotcha, I feel like the comparisons don’t really work though, I do 2x20@300 in the bike which is tough but doable, while I probably couldn’t finish 4x4@300 on the erg. Will try that set next week actually.
What I like about the erg is doing pretty much the same workouts as I do on the bike, and I feel my back is getting stronger which is helping my swimming. I can also do a couple more pull ups now compared to a month ago. Wonder how fast I can get for 2000 while maintaining race weight. Don’t think I could get much under 7 without putting on a few kg

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Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon

They last forever and the company is committed to maintaining reasonably priced parts for all models. I started with a B and ended up getting a D mostly for the PM5 and so my kids could change resistance more easily. The B will fold but it requires pulling bolts to do so, so not something you’d want to do regularly if that matters.

They hold their value well and trade pretty regularly (at least in the NE). When I got my D, I sold the B for what I had in it within three days. If you get a great deal and clean it up a bit you can even make money on the deal.

Dev - Have you talked to Brad Wiggins?

Wiggo seems to be All-In with the rowing!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I am holding off getting one for a bunch of reasons even though I am tempted to buy and have it conveniently in my home gym:

1. I need to build more base on this contraption. I THINK if I have it at home, I will use it too much. If I have to go somewhere, I use it less, allowing for a more gradual build
2. If I have to go somewhere else and use it less, I will more than likely make it count
3. I don't really want to justify spending money on any sports equipment now. I am investing in my tech startup (http://www.bluwave-ai.com) and spending family money paying other people and not ourselves and we're living pretty tight until I can close some larger financing, so spending money on gear would not be cool when I can use it for free at the gym (pass paid for). My wife was telling me to sell some Alibaba and Facebook a few weeks ago (that I got in on at both IPOs)....I guess I am an idiot oh well
4. If I have to go somewhere else, I meet with a variety of people at the gym different from me....muscle heads, football players, yoga women, cross fitters, hockey players etc. I like to learn about sport from people with different perspective and how they push the human body and mind. It can be quite impressive. Also social aspect of talking with people from different areas of life....lawyers, school teachers, social workers, construction workers....if not, my entire life is aerobic geeks like me and tech geeks like me. You get tunnel vision. When I traveled a lot for work, I just inherently got a lot of social diversity just by being global. Now that I am local, I have to build that diversity into my day.
5. Going in for a disc surgery consult in 10 days. If she agrees to cut me open and fix the compressed nerve, maybe I can get back to biking later this summer. The leg spasms that make biking and running very difficult don't affect rowing much when I use both legs in unison (just like Butterfly is less affected than free and back)....so if I can get back to biking, I see using the rowing machine less (although I think I am hooked on using it for life).

Hey, I am finding that mentally I am equating rowing intervals to running intervals. The paces at the same perceived exertion for ME appear to be similar....for example I can surge to 3:30 km pace when I was running and it felt really hard (1:45 per 500m which equates to 84 second 400m lap). 1:52 is roughly 90 second 400m lap pace.....2 min per 500m or 4 min per 1000m feels like 40 min 10K pace (again for me). 1500m interval on the rower feels roughly like mile repeats on the track. I never really did these type of intervals on the bike even on the trainer. I'd either do hard 1-2 min intervals or 20-60 min TT's...and since I am not running mentally this feels like virtual running.

Also the 4-6 min interval range nicely maps to trying to improve my 200 fly, 200IM and 400IM in the pool. It's a bit longer than the 200m events and a bit shorter than the 400m event (for me).

Now you’re “getting it”.

Point of reference: If executed correctly, one all-out 2km effort on the erg (or in a boat) can leave one “wasted” for a day, to a day and a half.

Get after it. Don’t get hurt while using the erg for therapy. Again: rowing puts a lot of stress on lumbar spine.

ETA: this is kind of cool, even if a bit heavy on production, and light on details...
https://www.olympicchannel.com/...egs-of-any-olympian/

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Certainly different from me then, at least not for shorter distances. I runs a mid 17 5k but couldn’t hold 1:45 for more than 5 min probably. Same for longer distances, can hold 4 min/km pace for a long time, but not nearly as long on the erg.
I just imagine I’m doing hard bike work most of the time, and working on my beach bod the rest of the time

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Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon

Right now I am focusing on 'base' work doing 85-90% of my session with no foot straps on and really trying to focus on contact with the foot platform and using the legs and just keeping the upper body connection. Generally my sessions are 4x1500m with the last 500-750m on the last 1500m when I put the straps on. Without straps on I am working at low to high 2:0x. With straps on, I am going at 1:5x low to high range. I am really enjoying it and wishing that I used this when I was racing tri. I have no doubt that both my bike and run would be stronger given the core and leg conditioning it provides.

Ed, thanks for this information. If I am 140 lbs, what type of ranges would I need to get to on an erg to be useful to teammates in a boat and not be a liability (let's say at a local level). I THINK in a year, I may be possible to consistently do 1:50 range per 500M for 2000m. I don't think I could hold 1:45. Those 5-7 seconds between1:52 and mid 1:40's is insanely difficult just like I fiind holding is 320W insanely difficult for me on the bike....at 250W (1:52) I can push for a long time on the bike. 300-310W I have done on a few very intense steep 15 min hill climbs, but never for 15 min on a flat.

As Oscaro mentioned, it seems harder to hold the same wattages for a long time on the rower. I assume a big chunk of this is initially learning the sport technically and making a solid connection. I will wait likely until June to try a 2000m. The safe goal for that would be 7:40 or 1:55 pace. Let's see. In the mean time better focus on doing this correctly rather than getting caught up by the number chase.

I stopped rowing at age 26 so I never really got any insight into what typical masters lightweight erg scores are. But I would imagine that just like in tri, you'll find some boats full of old retired ex national team lightweights that still pull in the 6:20's, and some boats of people that just started and still are over 8:00 for a 2k. I bet a 7:20 or even 7:40 would make you "useful" for a good number of masters lightweight boats.

I sat down on an erg for the first time in many many years the other day just to see what it would feel like. Trying to pull my old 2k split was humbling. What really struck me was how much force was required against the stretchers. It required leg strength that I just don't have anymore after all this tri training. We do a lot more high-cadence low force type stuff, whereas rowing is the opposite - even if you hold 35-36 spm for a 2k on the erg, that is pretty low compared to 90 rpm on the bike.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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I kept chipping at it for 11 more years after I hit 26yo. I was too dumb to quit—and then my back finally made that decision for me.

Data point: a 48yo, lightweight friend of mine just did 21:15 for 6k (1:46.2/500m) last week.

After 100s (?) of 6k tests, I'd rather do a 20' FTP test on the bike. And the idea of trying to repeat 1:33/500m (or 1:35-1:36/500m as a masters) for a 2k, even though I'm at weight... naaahhhh. That's a lot of time on an erg that could be spent in a 1x, actually having fun.

This. Rowing's a power sport. Tri is—and the component disciplines are—not. Rowing power is so different. And fantastic.

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Interesting what you guys are saying about rowing being higher force per stroke. I just noted that since I started this, my wall push offs in swimming are much stronger. I'm coming off the wall with three dolphin kicks around 2m past the flags (7m point). Also I have noticed a bit more leg and glute strength doing simple things like getting out of a chair, walking up and down stairs, or squatting to get stuff out of the bottom shelf of the fridge...keep in mind a lot of this was impaired for a few years with my disc injury, so I think this "light" rowing is waking up body parts that have been dormant.

Ed when you sat down on the erg, what drag factor and setting were you using. I am generally using between zero and three right now. I think zero is safer even if I 'slip' at the catch becauses its just less initial force on the lumbar spine. I am getting better not slipping at zero. I keep walking into the gym and those machines are always at "10" !!!!

I put the fan setting at 4 which is where I always put it back when I was rowing. I never bothered with looking at the actual drag factor.

Sometimes we would do a strength focused workout with the fan setting at 10 and doing sets of just 10 strokes at max effort. We never actually did continuous rowing with the setting over 4.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Just for fun - Here's the lighweight 2x final from the 2012 Olympics. The A final start is at 38:50 and this link should start there:




The British rowers are pretty exemplary. Bow seat shoots his ass a tiny bit (at the catch his butt starts moving back a bit faster than his hands)... more so in the last 15 strokes. But generally they are a great example. Their start is a work of art.


The Danes have better connection at the front end and are also a great example. Their stroke seat "dumps" a bit at the finish causing some bouncing in the boat... or maybe just trying to get some more length through more layback to match his taller boatmate.


Pretty exciting finish.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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