Also I have some questions on what is possible for a given human physiology. I would think that for a lightweight rower, you want to be the heaviest you can possibly be at the top of your weight class. So for me to maximize my potential in this, I should try to build up from 140 lbs to 160 lbs and generate proportional watts per kilo that I can generate at 140 lbs, only at 160 lbs, since there is no penalty to being heavier. But I don't want to be 160 lbs (I did that once in my life at age 22 after a winter of lifting and immediately went back over the summer down to 138 and I've stayed at 136 to 145 lbs all my life).

Having said that let's say my bike FTP was 260 W when I was last riding at 138 lbs. This seems to equate to a pace of 1:50 per 500m. If we say that I could be able to do 2000m row at 115% FTP then we're talking 300W. This equates to 1:46 pace per 500m

So it seems like my physiological limit once I get good at rowing for ME will be 7:00 at best for 2000m. I can't dream of going faster because that's all the cardio I have at my size.

I see all the big numbers posted all over the internet, and clearly that's like my going up against Kobe Bryant on the basketball court or up against Phelps in the pool. Not gonna happen.

So I THINK that anything sub 7:45 down to 7:20 range would be a decent end of year project range. This could be fun as my 400IM time in the water is in the same range right now . Please correct me if I screwed up the math. I think the word "lightweight" is loosely used. Who knows, I MAY have a chance at beat Mo Farah in a row (actually probalby not given how much that guy can deadlift and his 53 second closing speed for the final 400m of a 5000m track race).

I think you are overthinking it. If we all were to calculate our limits before we start the sport and those calculations are correct, we would never start it. How about you just keep it simple, plaster "how good can I get" and go after it.
I got injured in 2016 that put out me out of triathlon. Long story short, I found myself back in the seat of ICF K1 kayak for a few months last Summer. I came out of that sport 27 years ago and have not touched the paddle since.
I went on to put a 5k TT time nearly as fast as I did as 17 year old training full time. I am 47 now. You never know what you can really do until you do it.
I threw away all garmin devices and train now by feel like I used to. I don't calculate paces, I don't latch into what I think I can do. I just do it, sky is the limit. Now off to Marathon National Team trials in June, will see where I end.
Lastly, dig out that Kiwi light weight double that was crewed by two smaller guys that NZ wrote off as potential, don't remember their names. Great story, search it out. Think they ended placing top 3 at Worlds.....
Just go after it.

Are you looking to compete as a lightweight? Otherwise, don't worry about weight. On the water there is a drag penalty to more weight, but typically the added power from a bigger athlete more than compensates for it. But if you are planning on competing in a boat, your mates will want you to stay light to help them make average. While max weight rowing in the US is 160 pounds, the crew must average 155. (72.5kg/70kg internationally). Obviously if you are just talking about entering an indoor competition, then yeah, add 20 pounds of muscle!

You are a talented endurance athlete. I bet even at your age and weight you have a good chance of going under 7:00 for a 2k.

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Thanks, I know what you are saying...hey, I played high school football at 138 lbs and managed to do just fine in the sense that I never tried to carry opponents on my back, I found all the holes and seams and avoided them LOL! Mainly I also want to target something in my human limits, and not get discouraged by numbers way out of my league. If I get close to the number in my physiological league (or surpass them), I think this would be a great motivation point!

Having said that sucking at something has never really deterred me to see how far I can get. I leaned how to do butterfly stroke at the age of 51 and at 52 entering my first swim meet next weekend and doing the 50 fly, 100 fly, 200 fly, 100 IM, 200IM, 400 IM....trying not to finish last in all, but gotta start somewhere! My engine is decent size for an age grouper of my age, so as I try new sports its about trying to technically improve with the engine I have....not sure it can get bigger at this age!

Hi Ed, I think the first step is to learn how to row on dryland and make the connection to the machine. I think a year of doing that would be good and allow for my lumbar spine to get stronger before doing heroics. I will never say never to learning how to do this in a real boat as there is a local club that I have watched with interest from the sidelines. It looks awesome and fun. Having said that I started a tech startup (http://www.bluwave-ai.com) last fall and I need to devote my full attention to really getting it off the ground. Dropping by the gym on the way home or after or before swimming is super time effective. In terms of overhead. 30-45 min alternating 5-7 min at a time on the C2 and then getting upright for 2-3 min on the elliptical, 2-5 min of weights and back on the C2 is very time efficient! If things go well, I might put one at home, and when our company expands and we set up a gym we'll get one! (I can see all the tri geeks in the city wanting to join when I have more financing and money thinking that we'll be training all the time LOL...but we apply the same pace as we apply to training....my co founders are cut from the same cloth....both IM finishers....one of the guy is a former 2:23 marathon guy and tank commander + AI wizard).

Got inspired by this thread and did my first 2000m tt this morning. Ended up with a 7:32 after hitting 1000m in 3:51 so fairly big negative split. It was tough but I wasn’t completely gassed so guessing I could go a bit faster with better pacing. Gonna try again in a few days and try to constantly hit 1:50/500

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Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon

A slightly odd question. Are there indoor rowing machine's designed so that they could double as a Vasa swim trainer? or is the relationship between the resistance unit and the slider such that it couldn't be readily modified to work?

My wife wants an indoor rowing machine. I have toyed with the idea of buying a Vasa but wouldn't use it enough to justify actually buying one. I'm confident I could modify the seat to restrict its range of motion so it mirrors a VASA, but I wouldn't to start rebuilding the frame or resistance unit.

Seriously I would say don't even bother. The indoor rowing is going to be a much better workout than the Vasa Erg and the transfer to the water is pretty good. The only thing you are missing is the high elbow catch, but just buy some stretch chords and do some of that before and after your rowing and you are done.

Since I started this thread, I did a bunch of days when I do a set of 4x1500m row interspersed with 8 min elliptical trainer and weights between the 1500m legs (so the entire workout is around a 60 min circuit), then I go down to the pool for an hour of hammering out all kinds of intervals in the pool and I'm totally on fire (for me) in the pool. I really enjoy that 2 hour "brick".

Does any of the above advice change for the outrigger style rowers like the Kettler Kadet? (or are you just going to tell me to get a WaterRower?)

Are there any tips that really put the focus on leg power? No matter what, I never feel like my legs are doing as much as they should or could, and I'm sure it's technique issue. With a leg press machine, I know my legs are driving the weight, with any type of a rower, not so much.

Related thought, could the outriggers be aggravating my Golfer's Elbow? (caused by pull-ups, not golfing).

Thank you!

I have not tried a TT yet as I feel I need to work on gradually working on form and just build a base specific to rowing. I have not done enough the last 10 days as I was "tapering" (if you call it that) for Swimming Provincials, but now I am back on the rower. Generally my pace is hovering between 1:55 to 2:10 range. I think it would be very hard for me to break 8 min for 2000 m right now as most of the time I see a 2:00 to 2:09 range. I think it would be a big extra effort to stay consistently lower than 2 min for 8 min straight...doing surges into the low 1:5x is fine...staying there, I don't think I have the form yet to sustain, but I do think I have the fitness to sustain that, once my form catches up if you know what I mean.

Gotcha, I’ve done a few more workouts on the erg since, and usually for the steady state stuff I’m also around 2-2:10 and doing 500m/1k intervals at around 1:40. What I am bad at is slow stroke rates, when I’m doing my harder work I’m around 30s/min and steady state around 25, slower than that just seems awkward

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Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon

oscaro wrote:

Gotcha, I’ve done a few more workouts on the erg since, and usually for the steady state stuff I’m also around 2-2:10 and doing 500m/1k intervals at around 1:40. What I am bad at is slow stroke rates, when I’m doing my harder work I’m around 30s/min and steady state around 25, slower than that just seems awkward

Also on this stroke rate side, would this not depend on height and length of limbs? I'm short, so I would expect that I would go at a slighty higher stroke rate as I should in swimming than someone 6'6". I have gotten my stroke rate down such at steady state in 30-32 range feels fine and pushing really hard I end up at 38 or so. If I drop into the 20's, I just can't apply enough force per stroke such that the flywheel keeps spinning fast until my next catch. I am generally rowing at the level 4, and have not checked drag factor. I am guessing I can get things comfortable in the high 20's with a better connection with my legs at the catch. I am sure I am "slipping" right now thus the higher stroke rate.

http://www.concept2.com/...troke-rate-explained

Yeah I'm guessing it depends on that, I'm 6'4 though. Oh well guess that for triathlon it's okay not to be a beast on the erg.

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Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon

Answering Dev’s and Oscaro’s questions WRT stroke rate, length, and body type.

Your biggest gains, especially in technique, will come when rating 18-20 spm. At these rates, you’ll be able to apply proper technique, in the proper sequence, and still get the physio benefit.

Our club’s elite squad does a bi-monthly 30’ test rate capped at 20spm—think power per stoke. This allows for massive power application, while not generating massive amounts (but, still a lot of) of lactic acid. It also allows them to think about *how* to spin the wheel, since they are doing this to also improve their on-the-water rowing. They do base work at 18-22spm. When they test 2k, racing all out, they rate 32-36, and sprint 40spm+.

But this is sport-specific, and maybe not applicable to cross-training, etc. Basically: try to row low.

For those who are *new* to (indoor) rowing: cap your cadence at 22 for steady efforts. For threshold work, cap at 28. For all-out, if you’re above 34, you’re probably missing your connection between the handle, seat, and feet. Technique is developed and improved at lower ratings; it is mastered at higher ratings.

Height is not really a factor in cadence; load and technique are. On the water, boat and oars are rigged (“geared”) to accommodate height, and strength. On the erg, adjust the resistance to accommodate weight (and to some extent, known power metrics), not height. I’m 5’10”, and my wife is 6’1”. We row the erg with a similar load; I can go faster due to testosterone. In the boat: same rig, but her oars are geared ever so slightly lighter. (When we row together, she sits behind me and tells me what to do...there are others here who will attest to this...I swear...) When I row with dudes who are 6’’4”-6’6”, I usually ask them to follow me. We can change our respective stroke timing and power application to match each other, but it’s usually easiest of a taller person shortens up a tiny bit, rather than asking a shorter person to do weird things, to try to lengthen out.

This is a lot of info. I hope some of it helps.

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OK, thanks for that. Here is my challenge....I am worried about applying too much force per stroke at this stage of my lumbar spine rehab. What I could do is just go at lower stroke rate and maybe a slightly higher force at 20 than say 32 (so maybe not 50% more force which would keep power/speed the same, but 15-20%). Overall speed and power would be lower, but would allow me to do things with better connection.

I’m not a physician, but I’ve had decades of experience with rowing-induced back and rib injuries. My advice: be very, very careful, if you’re erging to rehab a lumbar spine injury. If you’re rowing correctly: the locus of connection between you and the erg is in your lumbar spine.

Be smooth. Be careful.
Don’t overload; keep things light.

Maybe if there are any orthopedic specialists reading this, they can offer advice.

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Advice from a middle aged former rower (Purdue Crew 1991, 1992)...

Technique:
1) Posture is key, sit up straight, engage your core and keep your back straight thru the entire stroke and recovery (DO NOT arch your back to reach forward and gain extra stroke length).

2) From the catch (most forward position on the Erg) - Drive with Legs, then back, then arms and reverse - extend arms, rotate back forward, bend knees... 3 distinct motions that need to flow seamlessly one into the next. Think if you were in a rowing shell (boat) and you bend your knees up before you extended your arms on the recovery your hands and the oar handle would hit your knees so keep those knees down on the recovery until your hands have passed over them!!!! (this is the biggest mistake I see "non-rowers" making at the gym)

3) Rowing watts are much more challenging than cycling watts given that rowing has no continuous flow in the power output. Each stroke of a row starts from ZERO watts - this is what makes rowing so challenging and brutal and painful and awesome (when on the water). Hard work generally begins at a pace of 2:00/500m and faster... Endurance is in the 2:00/500m to 2:10/500m range, easy is slower than 2:10/500m range. If your can hold 2:00/500m for 10,000 meters (40 minutes) that's pretty damn good... (easy for a college rower, harder for an older person)
Young and fit collegiate rowers will spend the majority of their training time in the 1:45/500m to 2:00/500m zone with sprints much faster than 1:45/500m (sprint races on water probably all faster than 1:45/500m for 5 to 10 minutes of pain given course length, currents, wind, etc..)

4) I use my concept 2 machine almost daily, only 1000 to 2000 meters per day and mostly as a light pressure warm-up before cycling or running. If its raining outside I may go for a 5000m indoor row... I like to change my effort every 100meters to keep boredom in check. Working my way down from a 2:10/500m pace to 1:55/500m pace every 100m (2:10, 2:09, 2:08, etc... down to 1:55 and then climb back up - makes a great 3,000m moderate effort row).

Good Luck!!!!

Thanks....I am viewing this as a non impact way of strengthening the lumbar spine as I am gradually making progress and if I don't exercise the area, it won't get strong over time and remain weak from a few years of protecting and compensation...When rowing, I think I am basically doing a sequence of really lightweight "less than body weight" dead lifts from a deep squat if I am doing this correctly? It is also why I am doing circuits where I only spend 1500m-2000m on the concept 2 at a stretch and then mix it up with weights and elliptical in between before coming back to the machine!

I'm in week 1 of my 24 weeks IM training plan, but am dealing with vertebrae compression fractures (two in the last 6 months). All is good when I'm not running, so am limiting my running to once a week.

As a result, I was back on the erg this morning after two years away - rowed 5k in 19'45. Tough but felt good and will likely row once a week throughout the programme.

I haven't read the whole thread, but one thing to mention is the chain resistance (on the Concept 2). I set at 5 this morning and it felt smooth - I imagine any higher and more factors come into play.

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I might add that my pace at 2 min per 500m or 4 min for km rowing feels almost identical to my perceived exertion running 4 min per K when I was last running consistently.

Dev

Pretty fair assessment Dev - the 2min/500m benchmark works for me too. I'm a bit sore this morning, across the traps and/or rhomboids as well as the glutes, so seems to have woken some muscles up. Going to do my best to stick with this once a week.

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Interesting today, I was doing a set of 4x1500m (I really should make it 1600m due to my runner mentality) and with 90 seconds or so left in each one I was treating it like the final lap of a one mile track repeat (I could also say it was like the final 100m of a pool 400m interval) in terms of intensity.

Are you on a Concept 2, Dev? Sorry if this has been stated before.

I love the simplicity of it, nothing to distract you, just that little screen and those numbers flashing up after every stroke. It pushes you and kills you at the same time.

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Yes, I have a city gym near home that also has my "home pool" and another city gym near work that has one. Both are < 5 min away and it's almost never that the Concept2's there are fully utilized.

I may buy one this summer if I keep making progress, but I also hope to get back on the bike at some point (fingers crossed). Relative to my "old world" of being able to ride, run and ski anywhere outdoors all the time, my current world of swimming indoors, lifting weights indoors, rowing indoors is like taking a cheetah from the wild and putting it inside a cage in the zoo. I am actually used to not exercsing outdoor anymore and look forward to my routine daily.

I really enjoying the rowing sessions....I just internalize to my body and the screen, but honestly when I go hard, I close my eyes and try to feel the technical aspects and totally internalize....I would do this on the trainer for hard intervals too and do it lifting weights....I think you can become more aware of how your body is applying force vs your brain getting sensory visual inputs that divert focus. I would also do this on skate ski intervals (that's really tough, but if you crash it's just snow), especially during nite ski sessions when you don't see much anyway and just feel the snow under your skis and poles anyway (and yes, it takes a ton of skill to get there). I can also do this swimming fly when no one is in the lane and I do it solo open water swim practicing. But eyes closed rowing totally feeling the body has zero safety concern LOL!

This is great. Visualization and body-awareness (control) are not the easiest to learn—and challenging to master—for a complex, technically-focused motion like rowing. Eyes closed with feet out is a great drill (if you were in a 1x, on the water, I'd also have you rowing square blade, etc.) for learning positioning and dynamic. ETA: Feet out will also help you from going too hard, and blowing out your back.

If you can, put the erg (fan end) in front of a mirror, at maybe 30° angle, so you can get a slight profile view. This will help you with what you're feeling w/ eyes closed, vs what you're seeing/doing when they are open. Hopefully, after some time, these feedback align.

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