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Re: The Aero Bike Shootout: New vs. Old; Rim vs. Disc; Direct to Consumer vs. Retailer; Beam vs. Double Diamond (*an update*) [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
Tri_Joeri wrote:
desert dude wrote:
Joeri

I'm happy to do a new test. There was talk of this a year or so ago. I figure besides bikes wind tunnel costs would be ~ $8k.

I'd also like to do something where we get 3-4 people including at least 1 female to give a wider range of expected savings. That's going to be more $$$.

Happy to run the testing, it's the sourcing of bikes, matching coordinates for bike only testing, and all the little things that go on behind the scenes to get the bikes ready to load on the platform. IIRC it was 2 people working for a solid 6-7h setting the bikes up to match the coordinates as closely as we did.

Last time donations did not cover the cost of testing, Kiley came out of pocket a few grand and we reduced our rates some. If I factored in all the hours I put into it pre test I probably made ~$5/hr, maybe


Fully understand! The cost is considerable and that is even without the (more than just) good will of guys like you.

I guess something needs to be setup first to see what kind of "budget" can be put together via donations and so on and also people willing to participate and bring bikes to be tested.
In the end, a lot of people will read this.. Probably a lot that don't chime in at first and contribute..
People from the timetriallinguk forum, people from the trainerroad or weightweenies forum. A lot of them are readers here as well and there are a lot of threads on the latest and greatest with regards to aero. Perhaps interest needs to be created there as well.


I'm more than happy to talk with anyone who wants to get this started.

I can remember sitting in the control room, everyone was huddled around the monitors, the naysayers were naysaying, reps from certain bike brands were trying to influence my testing protocol to favor their bike, my stress level was through the roof. Kiley came through on his first run and was so rock solid, i felt a little stress bleed off. When he did it again I was F yeah MFer! Way to go! He was baller all day long.

In fact kiley was so solid each and every run that one of the reps actually feel asleep during the testing!

then the after test shite started with a bike brand who felt the test was flawed. That was a whole other ball of wax I didn't see coming..sigh.

Like I said though, happy to chat and would 100% do it again

Roughly speaking, how much would this cost if the bikes were provided by owners free of charge? I'd be willing to donate $25 to 40, but probably not more. If it is within reach if we get _______ people to donate $25 to _____ I think it would be really cool to see the results.
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Re: The Aero Bike Shootout: New vs. Old; Rim vs. Disc; Direct to Consumer vs. Retailer; Beam vs. Double Diamond (*an update*) [littlefoot] [ In reply to ]
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littlefoot wrote:

Roughly speaking, how much would this cost if the bikes were provided by owners free of charge? I'd be willing to donate $25 to 40, but probably not more. If it is within reach if we get _______ people to donate $25 to _____ I think it would be really cool to see the results.

If you get the bikes donated, probably in that $8-9k range.

The more bikes people want tested, the more $ it costs. Once you load that first bike you're spending >$12 per minute. Changing a bike is 8-12 minutes or ~ $150. Do that 8x and you're spending > $1000 in changeover time

If you want to do 2, 3 or 4 riders to make it more applicable to more people then you've added a layer of complexity. That's going to be 3-4 thousand per rider in tunnel time.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Last edited by: desert dude: Oct 13, 22 10:25
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Re: The Aero Bike Shootout: New vs. Old; Rim vs. Disc; Direct to Consumer vs. Retailer; Beam vs. Double Diamond (*an update*) [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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I'd love to pick up where kiley left off, but time is not something I have right now. Maybe eventually if things cool off...

blog
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Re: The Aero Bike Shootout: New vs. Old; Rim vs. Disc; Direct to Consumer vs. Retailer; Beam vs. Double Diamond (*an update*) [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
I'd love to pick up where kiley left off, but time is not something I have right now. Maybe eventually if things cool off...

If this were to get off the ground it would need a team of 2-4 others that were dedicated to the project. Then on test day(s) it would take 2, maybe 3 others at the tunnel.

The biggest roadblock to this project will be financial, not manpower. Especially if the scope is increased to make it more relevant to more people, which I think it needs to do.

A lot of the heavy lifting was done the first time. Any tweaks to tighten up the protocol I've already made. How I'd design this to make it more relevant to more people is already done.

Currently this would need bikes, 2-4 dedicated people willing to give ~5h/wk for a 4-5 weeks for behind the scenes stuff, 2-3 people willing to give up 1-2d on test day(s) to be at the tunnel, however many riders we wanted, someone to do data analysis and the financing. The larger the scope, the more relevant it is to more people and them more it will cost.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: The Aero Bike Shootout: New vs. Old; Rim vs. Disc; Direct to Consumer vs. Retailer; Beam vs. Double Diamond (*an update*) [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
zooropa wrote:
Tri_Joeri wrote:
So with many new super bikes having come out since this test, what are the chances of having a new one done? I'm sure there are enough nerds/enthousiasts on here that would be willing to chime in, donate some change to get this done?

- Trek Speed Concept disc
- Canyon Speedmax disc
- Argon e119 tri disc
- Scott Plasma 6
- Orbea Ordu disc
- Cube Aerium C68 (TT) disc
- Ventum One disc
- Cadex bike if anyone can get their hands on one
- Tri Rig Omni which wasn't in the test the last time
- Cervelo P5d/PX to compare results with the previous test, as a base line?
- ...


It’s all conjecture anyways…but I’d drop a few from your list…and replace with Dimond and Pinarello. I’ll have to go back and check, but Dimond might have had more bikes there than ventum.

*conjecture as in I’d doubt aero shootout 2 gets funded 😂


What??? Not funded??? You mean people aren't dropping hundreds into an account for this? Crazy. Pony up people, science is calling...YOU!

historically one of the 2 bike brands you would add is not very fast at least according to my rim brake bike only testing. The other brand I've never tested that I can remember

Dimond or pinarrello not fast?
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Re: The Aero Bike Shootout: New vs. Old; Rim vs. Disc; Direct to Consumer vs. Retailer; Beam vs. Double Diamond (*an update*) [Pwraddr] [ In reply to ]
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Dimond or pinarrello not fast?[/quote]
Not sure about Pinarello…but The Dude has always said the Dimond was slow…but I don’t know what version he has tested. The current Marquis is different than the original version…especially in the fork and rear stays…so whatever…it can’t be too bad as I believe the fastest AG bike split at STG was on a rim brake Dimond earlier this year.

He does know a lot about this stuff, so it’s hard for me to try and disagree 😊
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Re: The Aero Bike Shootout: New vs. Old; Rim vs. Disc; Direct to Consumer vs. Retailer; Beam vs. Double Diamond (*an update*) [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
stevej wrote:
I'd love to pick up where kiley left off, but time is not something I have right now. Maybe eventually if things cool off...

If this were to get off the ground it would need a team of 2-4 others that were dedicated to the project. Then on test day(s) it would take 2, maybe 3 others at the tunnel.

The biggest roadblock to this project will be financial, not manpower. Especially if the scope is increased to make it more relevant to more people, which I think it needs to do.

A lot of the heavy lifting was done the first time. Any tweaks to tighten up the protocol I've already made. How I'd design this to make it more relevant to more people is already done.

Currently this would need bikes, 2-4 dedicated people willing to give ~5h/wk for a 4-5 weeks for behind the scenes stuff, 2-3 people willing to give up 1-2d on test day(s) to be at the tunnel, however many riders we wanted, someone to do data analysis and the financing. The larger the scope, the more relevant it is to more people and them more it will cost.

Thanks Brian. Lots of hurdles to tackle on the financial side and securing the equipment but not impossible.

blog
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Re: The Aero Bike Shootout: New vs. Old; Rim vs. Disc; Direct to Consumer vs. Retailer; Beam vs. Double Diamond (*an update*) [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:


I'm more than happy to talk with anyone who wants to get this started.

I can remember sitting in the control room, everyone was huddled around the monitors, the naysayers were naysaying, reps from certain bike brands were trying to influence my testing protocol to favor their bike, my stress level was through the roof. Kiley came through on his first run and was so rock solid, i felt a little stress bleed off. When he did it again I was F yeah MFer! Way to go! He was baller all day long.

In fact kiley was so solid each and every run that one of the reps actually feel asleep during the testing!

then the after test shite started with a bike brand who felt the test was flawed. That was a whole other ball of wax I didn't see coming..sigh.

Like I said though, happy to chat and would 100% do it again

I remember some of (your?) discussion about how good he was as a test rider. I think most people have awful aero discipline and don't realize how much they are all over their bikes. Rider discipline is incredibly overlooked. I know a lot of people who negate much of their positional advantages with how much they move all of the damn time.
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Re: The Aero Bike Shootout: New vs. Old; Rim vs. Disc; Direct to Consumer vs. Retailer; Beam vs. Double Diamond (*an update*) [turdburgler] [ In reply to ]
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turdburgler wrote:

I remember some of (your?) discussion about how good he was as a test rider. I think most people have awful aero discipline and don't realize how much they are all over their bikes. Rider discipline is incredibly overlooked. I know a lot of people who negate much of their positional advantages with how much they move all of the damn time.


It's incredibly important to be a still rider. I'd bet a fair chunk of $ the reason we had smaller error bars than other's testing that we looked at is bc of how still & repeatable Kiley was.
Part of it is/was test design, adding in 1 extra control in the middle of the sweep to confirmation (which also added duration and time for Kiley to not be rock solid) yet the main applause, if not all of it, should go to Kiley. He was more quiet on the bike than the mannequin Cervelo used in their white paper.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: The Aero Bike Shootout: New vs. Old; Rim vs. Disc; Direct to Consumer vs. Retailer; Beam vs. Double Diamond (*an update*) [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Anyone have news about Kiley? Whatever happened to that guy?
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Re: The Aero Bike Shootout: New vs. Old; Rim vs. Disc; Direct to Consumer vs. Retailer; Beam vs. Double Diamond (*an update*) [zooropa] [ In reply to ]
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He's around. I think he's taken a step back from endurance sports, for now anyway, at least on the competitive side. I also think he's stepped away from ST or at least posting.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: The Aero Bike Shootout: New vs. Old; Rim vs. Disc; Direct to Consumer vs. Retailer; Beam vs. Double Diamond (*an update*) [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Would be willing to donate to this cause. Would also be very interested in seeing the data with...

1. a short sleeve Trisuit vs tank.
2. some older models - such as original P3, as well as 10 year old Trek Speed Concept to compare with P5 as well as new trek.

I ask because I am contemplating buying either an early P5 or Trek over the winter and fiddling with position throughout next year. If I like this 'new' position and the bike, then by end of next year I would probably upgrade to a more modern bike. I am riding an ages old P2. Apparently, from the research I am reading it is pretty slow compared to bikes as recent as 8 years ago... So, an update is in order... That being said, looking to wait to order 'New' once supply chain issues start to clear up.... I couldn't find too much literature on the above two. Would be interested in reading the data if you already have a link to it..

Anyway, let me know if/when donations go in for this...

Running is the best source of fiber that I know of...
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Re: The Aero Bike Shootout: New vs. Old; Rim vs. Disc; Direct to Consumer vs. Retailer; Beam vs. Double Diamond (*an update*) [TriChris14] [ In reply to ]
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TriChris14 wrote:
Would be willing to donate to this cause. Would also be very interested in seeing the data with...

1. a short sleeve Trisuit vs tank.
2. some older models - such as original P3, as well as 10 year old Trek Speed Concept to compare with P5 as well as new trek.



Anyway, let me know if/when donations go in for this...


In all my years of testing I've run across 1 person who tested faster in a tank vs short sleeved suit. This is a play the odds which are 99.99 to 1 in favor of a sleeves suit. (I designed a new one, should be getting data on it soon, stayed tune ST) (said with both terror and anticipation bc I've seen what I thought were well designed suits bomb and poorly designed suits do well)

IIRC Cervelo's seem to be ~6-8w per generation. I think older generations are ~8w and starting around the P4 ~6w between gens. I would count the P5x & P3x as the same generation
You can back calculate.

Just remember the more bikes the more complexity. The more bikes the more wrenching. If the wrench work lags the tunnel work you could be paying for who knows how many minutes of wrench spinning at $12+/min.

Every $25 donation pays for 2 minutes of tunnel time. This project would need A LOT of $25 donations

One of the benefits last time was there was zero downtime wrenching since 90% of that was done pre start.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Last edited by: desert dude: Oct 16, 22 13:27
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Re: The Aero Bike Shootout: New vs. Old; Rim vs. Disc; Direct to Consumer vs. Retailer; Beam vs. Double Diamond (*an update*) [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting Brian. Just for clarity, do you mean that 'each generation' of cervelo's seam to have about a 6-8 watt difference between them regarding performance vs each subsequent previous generation? Does that sound correct?

Also, regarding trisuits, what are we talking about 'approx' with regard to avg time savings? In either Olympic or Iron terms? 1min per 40k? Or, 5-6 per Iron? And, what if 'tank' version is tight against the skin, doesn't matter?

In any case, please pm me when you are about to take donations if you do this project.

Running is the best source of fiber that I know of...
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Re: The Aero Bike Shootout: New vs. Old; Rim vs. Disc; Direct to Consumer vs. Retailer; Beam vs. Double Diamond (*an update*) [TriChris14] [ In reply to ]
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I'd keep this shoot out solely for bikes and not add the complexity of different clothing in there though, there is more than enough anecdotal data on different forums on people who tested with different clothing..

I would also be interested in donating 25-50 dollars, and I'd happily take days off to help out but I'm in Belgium so unfortunately that will be very difficult.. Is there a way to set up some kind of gofundme (I have never used one so not too familiar with it) for a certain period and see how much we can come up with to see if it's feasonable, else either the test is cancelled or the scope has to be reduced? And I guess the scope (i.e. which bikes) we would like to have tested needs to be set to get people to invest.

What I do have some difficulties with is some people funding quite a bit of money or offering up a lot of their time and then likely have 10x the amount of people that will read the white paper but not have contributed.. The results and paper should only be available to those who contributed either financially or by providing bikes/equipment..
Last edited by: Tri_Joeri: Oct 17, 22 0:39
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Re: The Aero Bike Shootout: New vs. Old; Rim vs. Disc; Direct to Consumer vs. Retailer; Beam vs. Double Diamond (*an update*) [littlefoot] [ In reply to ]
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A good starting point for aero testing without engaging tons of cash, would be to monitor each upgrade we made on our bikes.
For instances everyone could have a protocole like XX watts on the same course with every piece a new kit versus the older ones. Not very scientific but way much cheaper than a wind tunnel session.
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Re: The Aero Bike Shootout: New vs. Old; Rim vs. Disc; Direct to Consumer vs. Retailer; Beam vs. Double Diamond (*an update*) [Tri_Joeri] [ In reply to ]
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Or we could set something up like this in Belgium. Not to exclude the US experts but I think I could easily could get some aero experts in from Bioracer and some other companies as well. I have some connections in the UK.
The windtunnel in the bike valley in Belgium would be a good place or the windtunnel in Eindhoven and make it a student project.

In my free time i would set up all bikes in equal fit or at least a close a possible. I’m a pretty solid position rider as well. Did aero tests on a velodrome with the people of Gebiomized and Alphamantis and were crazy surprised that my position in the saddle over al the test runs done over 2 days was within 3 mm on the saddle. For every run there was a pressure mapping on the saddle and some other device that measured i think body angle. I can’t recall exactly, was in 2020 August but they told me i was about the most consistent rider in terms of position they tested.

Jeroen

Owner at TRIPRO, The Netherlands
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Re: The Aero Bike Shootout: New vs. Old; Rim vs. Disc; Direct to Consumer vs. Retailer; Beam vs. Double Diamond (*an update*) [TRIPRO] [ In reply to ]
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Well I work in Eindhoven and live 30' from Bikevalley so I'd definitely be willing to help out if that's the route this is going to go!

And you and I are on opposite ends of the height spectrum so that's good for testing haha.
Last edited by: Tri_Joeri: Oct 17, 22 9:14
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Re: The Aero Bike Shootout: New vs. Old; Rim vs. Disc; Direct to Consumer vs. Retailer; Beam vs. Double Diamond (*an update*) [TRIPRO] [ In reply to ]
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TRIPRO wrote:
Or we could set something up like this in Belgium. Not to exclude the US experts but I think I could easily could get some aero experts in from Bioracer and some other companies as well. I have some connections in the UK.
The windtunnel in the bike valley in Belgium would be a good place or the windtunnel in Eindhoven and make it a student project.

Don't underestimate the value of experience in running something like this

I have been in the tunnel with many "experts", and can think of maybe 2 or 3 that could pull this off.

Doing a bunch of tests is easy. Getting a pile of data is trivial. Interpreting it and producing a report like they did is pretty extra-ordinary
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Re: The Aero Bike Shootout: New vs. Old; Rim vs. Disc; Direct to Consumer vs. Retailer; Beam vs. Double Diamond (*an update*) [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag wrote:

Doing a bunch of tests is easy. Getting a pile of data is trivial. Interpreting it and producing a report like they did is pretty extra-ordinary

All those things are easy if you find it fun :-)
I would be happy to do the data analysis again
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Re: The Aero Bike Shootout: New vs. Old; Rim vs. Disc; Direct to Consumer vs. Retailer; Beam vs. Double Diamond (*an update*) [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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I don't under estimate this at all and would do significant research on who to take on board to do the test and would most likely ask here on experts.
Maybe even fly 1 or 2 experts in if that would be the best call.

I read the reports done with that previous test and indeed it seemd like a 'task' ;-)

Jeroen

Owner at TRIPRO, The Netherlands
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Re: The Aero Bike Shootout: New vs. Old; Rim vs. Disc; Direct to Consumer vs. Retailer; Beam vs. Double Diamond (*an update*) [TRIPRO] [ In reply to ]
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TRIPRO wrote:
I don't under estimate this at all and would do significant research on who to take on board to do the test and would most likely ask here on experts.
Maybe even fly 1 or 2 experts in if that would be the best call.

I read the reports done with that previous test and indeed it seemd like a 'task' ;-)

Jeroen

by putting it in quotes and having a smiley face after you are significantly downplaying the effort it took to get this test across the finish line and into a digestible and efficient report.
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Re: The Aero Bike Shootout: New vs. Old; Rim vs. Disc; Direct to Consumer vs. Retailer; Beam vs. Double Diamond (*an update*) [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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jkhayc wrote:
TRIPRO wrote:
I don't under estimate this at all and would do significant research on who to take on board to do the test and would most likely ask here on experts.
Maybe even fly 1 or 2 experts in if that would be the best call.

I read the reports done with that previous test and indeed it seemd like a 'task' ;-)

Jeroen


by putting it in quotes and having a smiley face after you are significantly downplaying the effort it took to get this test across the finish line and into a digestible and efficient report.


Which I meant in quite the opposite way, I can see that it took an significant amount of work and this is a great example of how written lines and icons added can be meant by the writer in one way and totally misinterpreted by another reader. I wanted to add a smiley here but.......The smiley was meant to say that a 'task' was at the lower end of how you could describe the effort it took.

Seriously, I meant no harm and I don't underestimate at all how much work went into this test and all the reports.

Jeroen

Owner at TRIPRO, The Netherlands
Last edited by: TRIPRO: Oct 18, 22 8:32
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Re: The Aero Bike Shootout: New vs. Old; Rim vs. Disc; Direct to Consumer vs. Retailer; Beam vs. Double Diamond (*an update*) [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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As a participant and someone who helped get the bikes ready in time - I can say it was a crazy hard task to get the project done. And, I did none of the pre or post work.

After you think you have everything set-up and on the same page (everyone knows what is needed and you are there - at the hotel) a bike will show up the night before with the wrong length crank arms - no problem - oh the BB needs an adaptor to fit the Shimano crank - where do we get one of those at 7pm the night before? Crap the BB will not come out - just hit it harder - no no no!


Trying to get all the bikes within 1 mm of each other was not easy; hours and hours.

Here is an example of issues that matter when the bikes are within a few watts of each other. Top three bikes were within about 3 watts. Bike #3 is sold stock with an optimized chain saving 5 watts on the road. So is bike three faster than bike 1 and 2? Argument - we could buy a chain from you and then ours would still be faster - correct but your bikes are not stock then. Headline "Bike 1 is fastest Bike in the Test"

Here is another example of issues that matter. Bike X has an built-in hydration system that has an 18" straw that sticks up "as sold stock" but the other bikes don't have hydration "as sold stock" so manufacturer X takes the straw off for the test. How much worse would that bike have tested stock?

The bottom line to me... these fastest bike are all within 3-5 watts at 30 mph. At 23 mph maybe 1-2 watts. Anything a rider does will affect the drag more than any difference between the best bikes. So, who can hold that fantastic position comfortably for the distance of the race? That's who will be faster.

Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com
Last edited by: dkennison: Oct 18, 22 8:56
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Re: The Aero Bike Shootout: New vs. Old; Rim vs. Disc; Direct to Consumer vs. Retailer; Beam vs. Double Diamond (*an update*) [dkennison] [ In reply to ]
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dkennison wrote:

The bottom line to me... these fastest bike are all within 3-5 watts at 30 mph. At 23 mph maybe 1-2 watts. Anything a rider does will affect the drag more than any difference between the best bikes. So, who can hold that fantastic position comfortably for the distance of the race? That's who will be faster.


100% agree.

However what it did show was that bikes one would assume were fast, weren't.

I personally see a wind tunnel budget allocated to independant testing would find more useful things (for the general population interested in aero) elsewhere that the difference between top end bikes.

I suspect people would find far more surprising things than the delta between bikes. Heck, a comparison between a $5k and $12k bike would probably be more interesting.

Soooooooooo many myths to be busted.
Last edited by: marcag: Oct 19, 22 6:41
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