Bike handling skills ARE important and rollers have a positive influence on how you ride. People who have lots of experience (especially BMX/MTB/CX ) already have skills that rollers won't really improve. But for many of us, riding rollers develops steering and balance skills that are a notch above what you learn just riding down the road. And they help you stay sharp.

That said, people don't ride rollers just to improve skills, they also train on them. In the era of the modern smart roller, the idea that you can do serious training indoors and either maintain or improve your handling skills at the same time is compelling. Rigid trainers are divorced from the actual physics of riding, which is going to be detrimental to your skills if you do it for long periods. For most triathletes, doing ZWIFT or Trainer Road sessions on a smart roller rather than a trainer will be an automatic skill booster and an easy way to get more benefit from the hours spent indoors.

To be clear, you're asserting that I'm wrong that you don't ever have to ride rollers to ride comfortably, carefully, safely, aggressively (insert your adverb, here)?

Okay.

And this topic was started because of repetitive injuries?

I think you're cross-posting on the wrong thread.

It does? So if you don't ride rollers, you can't do those things? Rollers are unique and special in that regard?

Oh, the additional benefit. You hit the antiquated nonsense trifecta I mentioned several posts ago. Kudos.

You're projecting your own inabilities and lack of skills, here.

That's great that you're aware of them, and taking steps to address them, but again, it's straight up nonsense to suggest that rollers are this magical thing that give you these higher level skills that you can't get by, you know, actually riding your bike in various situations. I mean, hell, does it blow your mind that there are high level road and crit racers (and just regular riders that don't race) that don't ride rollers? Or are they just naturally endowed with these elusive magical bike handling skills?

You slipped when you included your comments that there are ways to get better on a bike in “various scenarios”. If your admitting that to then say a another scenario that includes bike handling somehow doesn’t help is ignorant.

So as I said the goal is bike handling- rollers or crit work or leaning on someone’s elbows or paceline work; are all just different scenarios to get better handling skills.

I’m just pushing back on your idea that rollers do nothing for you but ride rollers better. That there is no carry over into handling skills is complete head scratcher. Like your admitting some scenarios make you a better bike and others don’t? That makes no sense, when rollers behave the way they do.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

What are you going on about? What's this, your 7th or 8th post now and you STILL can't actually tell anyone what these "higher level skills" and all that nonsense actually are?

Various scenarios like the ones I mentioned in my second or third post? Riding in a group? Cornering? Descending? Guess what you don't get good at when you ride alone? Guess what you don't get good at if you never go down a hill/mountain? Guess what you never get good at if you don't turn? I could go on and on about various scenarios. I feel the rationality will still escape you.

It's a head-scratcher that you keep talking about these mysterious skills but are incapable or articulating what these said skills are.

I've accepted that you're simply talking out of your ass and really don't have any specific reasons for your nonsensical replies, which is why I stopped replying to you. But here you are again, perpetuating more nonsense. How many posts are you NOT going to actually back up any of your silliness?

- you have been stating so much nonsense you are losing track of what you are responding to!
My reply was to this statement of yours-
“Nothing you've said above can't be gained from simply riding. There's no "stability muscles" that are worked on when riding rollers that aren't worked on by riding on the road (or simply rolling out of bed and walking to the toilet).”
There are absolutely stability muscles engaged on rollers that are not worked by riding on the road, or rolling out of bed and walking to the toilet! If your assertion was true, anyone who has done a reasonable about of riding (or going to the toilet), could easily ride on rollers. This is absolutely not the case. Rollers did not lose popularity because they weren’t effective, they lost popularity because they are f’n hard to ride! Talk to absolutely anyone who has ridden them for a reasonable period of time, and 100% would tell you it improved their handling and overall riding. Are they mandatory? I have already said no. Are they helpful? Absolutely. Your statements show the mindset of so many triathletes, yet are absolutely horrible at handling their bikes, which is the exact topic of this thread. As I also noted, if just riding your bike would give you the needed skills, this thread would have never started. Literally thousands of triathletes who ride their bikes a lot (and presumably go to the toilet a lot) are BAD bike handlers!

You made a statement that rollers dont do anything but make you better at rollers. Several people on this thread have countered that viewpoint, and not a single person has said that rollers are the only way to improve handling skills. They've simply showcased as have I, how they improve handling. Your failure to recognize that is on you. Nothing more.

And no one in this thread has said that rollers are the only way to get better handling skills. I've just countered your viewpoint with another viewpoint, and apparently others have used rollers to help as well. Yet you continue with whatever of your own bullshit.

So again no one has said rollers are the only method, we've simply countered your points with various points that actual showcase how riding rollers helps with handling. That you seem to not want to validate, well that's your own ignorance at this point.

So not much else to discuss, you dont see value in rollers. Many others do. Many others see value in a bunch of different ways to get better handling skills (I'm in that camp). What I dont think you can say though is that rollers dont help, I mean you can certainly keep saying that. Just a lot of other people will disagree with that stance.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

My statements show the mindset of a triathlete?

If I told you I've never done a triathlon in my life, and that was a cat 1 racing internationally before I'd ever personally seen a pair or rollers, would it change any of the silliness in your post?

No, probably not. Such is the state of vacuous, irrational streams of consciousness.

Hey bro, before typing up a four paragraph response of the same stuff you've already said in a dozen other paragraphs, can you just tell me what these skills are (either the higher level skills, the bike skills, the handling skills, or whatever other skills you've mentioned so far)?

Otherwise this continued waste of time has lost what little entertainment value you've managed to sustain up to this point.

It’s the skills that you keep replying back to other ppl with “so rollers are only skill that does that”. Of which not a single person in this thread has said rollers are only way to achieve that handling improvements,

Lol

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

So no mysterious roller skills, then.



My second post. Called it from the get-go.

You can be a world class international level cyclist and have a background without rollers and you can be a world class rider or coach with a background in rollers or you can be a total newbie or 50 year veteran of cycling that uses rollers to make you better. There's no "right way" to get better handling, there's 100's of scenarios to get better at handling your bike. If you don't think rollers help, fanfreakingtastic. Others have simply countered your point with their own experience, and yet only yours is correct?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

My view is that rollers aren't necessary, as stated in my earliest posts. You've spent a dozen threads trying to argue that very simple point while alluding to magical roller skills and in the end have come up with nothing.

That's all.

I think it was your original comment that rollers only help make you better at rollers; that's what I took to question. With that theory pretty much any "skill" is only applicable to that said skill to make you better. But of course that's not true, as going out into a field and bumping each other improves the athlete's ability to handle close quarters and gets them more confident with handling their bike. Or doing paceline work at their weekly ride will improve their ability and confidence around others, etc. and thus make them better in a larger packs. Hitting the trainer hard will help make you stronger but without "group" riding skills, you are going to be dangerous. Of course in 15 years when everything is virtual racing anyways, we wont even need any bike handling skills anymore. We'll just all be sitting in our pain caves seeing who can put out the most watts.

My original reply did use "necessary" and it was more in the sense that it's an scenario imo that makes you better at handling, which you didn't seem to agree too. I also didn't think it's an mandatory thing because I think for most non-draft triathletes there are far more important aspects of riding/racing that will help them. IE- holding a line and grabbing your bottle without swerving; or looking both left/right and not swerving. So if you took exception to "necessary" fair enough. (I only give rollers to draft legal triathletes where imo handling/comfort/confidence is "next level" important while non-draft athletes I think there are better specific situations to work on). So it's really all in what you want out of your bike handling imo. Non-draft athletes I think can get away with having less skills than a athlete who's riding in close quarters for their events; so I dont coach the 2 the same).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Interesting idea... Not too sure what we learn with the bottom 5 test.

IMO something as simple as asking people to climb 200m @ 10% should weed-out the people that didn't do their homework (i have lapped so many people walking up hills with gear left on at the back... very unlikely to make the cutoff anyway). Otherwise the sport need to be inclusive.

Hey, you're correct. You CAN learn those things riding outside if you practice.

Lemme ask you this though: How many triathletes do you know who practice transitions?

Based on a sample soze of the few dozen triatheletes I know, I'd put it at about 10%. Something super critical.. free speed even... that tri dorks like you and I all know we SHOULD practice, but nearly all DON'T.

Same goes for any and all skill drills, like the above mentioned riding straight, etc.

That's the catch to your "they could teeewtullay lurn dose skeeels enywhure" arguement...

Rollers don't give you the choice. If you ride rollers, you learn those skills or you crash.

As far as your "useless trifecta", keep believing that. Hell, convince as many people as possible that smooth pedaling is bad. Bounce all over on your bike. Waste as much energy as possible. Please! It only helps the results of everyone else.

But, for the love of god, please don't try to convince people not to do things that improve their bike handling skills (and therefore my safety on course)..

By the way, why do you have such a hatred for Rollers? And don't try to deny it. Clearly you have a large chip on your shoulder about them. Its kinda odd.

You state that someone can develop all needed bike skills by simply riding, or just going to the toilet.
I point out that rollers are a useful tool, and there are literally thousands of examples of people that ride a lot, and have poor riding skills (which is the point of this thread)
And you conclude MY statements are “the state of vacuous, irrational streams of consciousness??”
Sounds like you have taken a few too many falls without a helmet- perhaps you should have tried some rollers are some of the other mentioned ways of improving your skills. (Last statement pink)
As noted by others, you are entitled to your beliefs, but please, please do not encourage others to ignore common sense practices to improve their bike skills.

I stand by what I said before.
Plenty of racers already have great bike handling, but for many cyclists, just riding the rollers is essentially a drill for specific skills, ones you would not learn except in specific circumstances. They include:
Riding in a narrow space, keeping a neutral stance, powering out of collisions with other riders, getting out of the saddle without shoving the bike backwards, direct feedback on pedaling smoothness and using body english to control the bike.
It's not the only way to get skills, but it's an expedited process because you are riding in a more demanding environment.
This also means there's an element of risk when on the rollers, which in my opinion is why many people prefer trainers. Unfortunately, they are the ones who would benefit the most.

Just curious. How do you get out of the saddle without "shoving the bike backwards"?
You can get up more smoothly, but this isn't a skill IMO, just a habit. Whatever way you do it, the bike will go backwards relative to the rider unless you adopt a rather strange out of the saddle postion. If the rider's centre of mass moves forward relative to that of the centre of mass of the combined rider & bike, the bike will move aft relative to that combined centre of mass. This cannot be avoided via aquired skills. You instead need to avoid the constraints of the physical world. Good luck with that ;P

Don't repeat it too many times or you could have problems when you decide to race in UK, Ireland, Australia, Japan, New Zealand, India, South Africa, Thailand, and a few others places....

A friend in college, track bike rider, would mess with me on road rides. Lean into me while going down the road. Put his front wheel against my back wheel slowing me down. I guess more adept riders like to help us improve our bike handling skills so we don't crash them some day.

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

I have ridden rollers and haven't ridden rollers for sometime. Are they mandatory? If we use the term mandatory strictly, then we would have cyclists who can't ride rollers falling on every ride.

I would put them in next level bike handling skills, not in mandatory skills. Next level bike handling skills for riders who want to be Cat3 or above. Maybe AG podium.

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

Yes you pretty much summed up my thoughts/theory.

I’ll jist go on the record and say adding rollers imo will def make you a better and safer rider so thus they accomplish what I’m looking for in using rollers. So whether someone else agrees or disagrees I’ll just put my athletes safety and performance record as evidence it’s working for my athletes. And it’s not specifically rollers, but they play a part in the whole grand scheme of things.

I’m just not arrogant enough to say it doesn’t work when being faced with evidence from others showcasing it does.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

True, it was a NA centric response (on what is a mostly NA centric forum)

Should I ever race there it might scare the crap out of me as some slow arse'd swimmer, rockets past me to the right on the bike leg.
I did race London in 2011'ish (ITU Worlds, what an amazing bike course, a trip through history), where for some reason NA rules were applied.