"required" and necessary I think are 2 things....from your list I would "require" these:

-Emergency, controlled stop
-Look over either shoulder while traveling down the road.
-Remove, drink from, and replace water bottle while looking ahead.


Those are just basic every day moves that will make you safer and more predictable out on the roads and in races.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Taking body contact and not panicking.

For AG triathletes.

- Able to negotiate a turnaround on a 2-lane road without falling down.

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"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

Years ago part of the Lifetime Triathlon in Miami had a turnaround at the dead end of a two lane road. A large group that was ahead of me by ~100 yards bunched up and went down in the turn. I was very tempted to cut the course by ~20’ to avoid the mess. They should probably advocate “single file” for such turnarounds.

Stay to the side of the road. Don’t ride the center line. 5 wide is not acceptable and against the rules.

Makes sense, but all too common that these are ignored.

I would add predictably hold a line on a curve....this seems to be real problem from what I’ve observed with triathletes.

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___________________________________________________
Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

How is riding rollers a mandatory skill? Riding rollers makes you good at riding rollers.

Trackstand is pretty pointless, too, save for maybe a specific track event.

As I noted I think some things are "mandatory" to help make you a safer rider and some are necessary.

But riding rollers will make you a better/safer rider, it's much more than just "riding rollers to ride rollers well".

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Experience riding will make you a better/safer rider. No need for rollers in the least.

Stopping in wet conditions with carbon brake tracks.
Riding with a side wind
Looking over shoulder
Removing/putting back bottles from where ever you store them (behind the seat?)

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http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com

And experience riding + rollers will make you a better rider. Rollers give you confidence that's in itself hugely helpful for on the road riding.

As is a track stand. It's more a "confidence" transitive skill than anything. You become better by becoming better at higher quality skills. End of story.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

You're really, really stretching here. Confidence? Seriously? Riding on rollers, again, has to do with riding on rollers. Cornering, descending, riding in groups, dodging obstacles, real-life riding?!; all of those things take actual experience doing. Rollers have nothing to do with any of that.

And trackstanding? In a dozen years of riding with dozens of cat 1s, 2s, and 3s, I can count on one hand the number that could actually trackstand, and those few guys were mountain bikers as well.

Just imagine how much more confident and better at higher quality skills they'd be if they could trackstand!... but...oh...

End of a story that you're making up as you type your responses, perhaps...

As Doughtie mentioned above me, riding rollers translates well into general bike handling skills (if you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball!) and track standing translates well into low speed handling.

...so maybe not “mandatory” but helpful. I did try to list things in a hierarchical order.

I've never once said that rollers make up for on the road riding. I simply said that they are a very specific higher level skill that improves the confidence of a rider and thus makes them better on the roads. You stated you need to know how to turn and miss obstacles- riding on rollers can improve your bike handling; I'm not really sure how you can sit here and debate that. Doesn't really make a whole lot of sense actually. Never once said they replace anything. Just said they do a hell of a lot more than just make you a better rider on rollers that you claimed.


You dont think those skills are transitive skills for better riding, I do (and others disagree with your assessment even on this thread) . End of story.

*As m original note, there are skills that were noted that I think are "required" and some that are more "necessary" for better quality of riding. I noted that neither of the skills we are discussing are "required" skills. Just that they make you a better rider if you do them in addition. And they certainly add more skills than just riding rollers that you claim.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

+1

I took a skills session before my first Cat 5 race where we practiced this, and it blew my mind how much body contact you can take without thinking you're just going down.

Also as previously mentioned, being able to hold your line while looking over both shoulders is a big one.

What are you dodging on rollers, exactly?

The notion that rollers help "smooth out pedal strokes" and "improve handling" is archaic silliness rooted in 1970s cycling lore.

If you like riding rollers and trackstanding, by all means do it and enjoy. But don't pretend like it's necessary component for riding well, aggressively, or successfully. Because it's most assuredly not. .

You and the OP disagree. But the OP somehow thinks that being able to trackstand should be a mandatory riding skill. I question how many bike races he's participated in if he genuinely thinks that.

No, but you've said multiple times they're necessary for whatever "very specific higher level skills" are.

What are those, exactly?

Please explain. Please also explain the "more skills" rollers provide that you couldn't get out on the road.

I mean, you thinking that isn't the "end of story". It's just you thinking it and trying to be dismissive without providing any rational or realistic reasoning to back it up.

Like I said above, archaic silliness.

As a 200 pound man the only bunny hop you're getting from me is on a mountain bike, that shit will pop your tires and our damage your race wheels.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

OP said "mandatory" and in general it's more of an discussion point. Which is what I pointed out to him that there really are "mandatory" skills AG triathletes should learn and then there are skills above and beyond that will only help them, but aren't necessary.

Trackstand/rollers would fall into the skills not needed but helpful. They are skills that are helpful in your comfort and ability to handle a bike-I'm sorry you don't understand that. You think it's archaic silliness, and I see opportunity to get better. So I'm showcasing how it's been helpful, you dismissed being "confident". There's nothing else really to discuss with you. You have your theory, I have mine.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Rollers?? WTF for??

I've never ridden rollers in my life, and I'd put my bike handling skills up against any triathlete's.

Bunny hop is "nice, but not necessary" - certainly not a mandatory skill, but a good semi-advanced one to have up your sleeve for when it's really handy.

I'd agree with your Top 3, and the riding hands-free.

And add - holding your own damn line, and not weaving all over the road like a drunken squirrel.

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float , hammer , and jog

I'm not talking about mandatory. I'm genuinely curious how rollers help you improve.

You've said the above at least three times now. I pointedly asked you how rollers are helpful and you've repeatedly said nothing other than some generic lines about confidence and comfort.

I still don't know what your theory is because you still haven't adequately described what these magical roller and higher level skills are.

Can you not explain them? Can you not describe a concrete way that rollers help you become a better rider than you'd be if you didn't ride rollers? What are these skills and how are they so helpful?

+ infinity. correct cornering technique, including how to apex needs to be learned. The way most triathletes attempt 180* turnarounds is pathetic and unsafe in a group/race setting. Someone executing the line and turn flawlessly can be wiped out by their idiocy

 I pointedly asked you how rollers are helpful and you've repeatedly said nothing other than some generic lines about confidence and comfort.

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I've pointedly said that anytime you can improve your confidence and comfort on a bike is a huge thing (I'd assume most bikers would understand that and I didn't need to explain in specifics why balance and control is important). The fact that you dismiss that, then there's nothing really else to discuss. Again I've never once said that rollers or trackstand or required to be a bad ass biker. I've said they are skills that will help you become a bad ass biker if you practice them in addition to a whole bunch of other things- like just generally riding your bike.

But I cant help it that you can't comprehend how improving confidence and comfort on your bike is a bad thing. That's your lack of comprehension, not my lack of explaining. Just seems we are on 2 different levels of understanding, and that's ok.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Perhaps the question here is “mandatory” vs “helpful”. I agree that rollers and ability to do a track stand are not mandatory, but they are certainly quite helpful. Both of those help develop and tune stability muscles that help with many aspects of cycling (just as core and stability work help swimming and running). These skills definitely improve ability to hold a steady line, keeping bike stable when looking back, dealing with a bottle, or nutrition, changing position, etc.
For safety of all on the course- very basic skills like being able to look behind on either side while keeping a line, getting a water bottle or nutrition while keeping a line, braking- while keeping a line...basically keeping a line while doing all things one would do while riding is clearly number one.
I would add to the list how to destabilize your bike when something effects your balance, pot hole, gravel, wind, another rider...AND, when you reach the point of no return- how to fall, ie proper tuck and roll.
With new riders, I always try to set up skill sessions in a grassy park, including slow speed handling and falling :-)
One other request is having triathletes learn how to ride at a draft legal distance. The vast majority of triathletes ride in groups, clinging to a wheel, with fear of being dropped, which makes them very uncomfortable riding a legal distance back. I think this is a huge factor (but not only) factor in the formation of packs.

And I do this coaching itu and draft legal specific athletes, where comfort at “sitting in” is hugely important in saving energy and stress. So excuse me if I think your blowing off confront and confidence from rollers, which you are. So one of the ways I build that confidence is an roller progression program in addition to group rides, crit work, It’s all part of the package, there’s no “only” way.

My roller progression rule to be able ride no hands for my athletes as one of the ways I know that they are very likely to be “safe” around others.

I’ve had athletes in DL events get taken out and seriously hurt cus ppl couldnt ride in a group safely doing basic things.

So again you can think it’s archaic that’s fine. You can’t dispute bike comfort/control/confidence as not important.

That’s my background and knowledge point.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Rollers are a shortcut to being able to ride without pedaling keeping the bike going straight. Not necessary, but a quick way to check/get feedback. My collegiate cycling team required new riders to be capable of riding rollers and it helped get them smooth quickly.

More generally, I think people should simply be able to crash less. Hard to quantify that or make rules, but here are some ideas (mainly aimed at bike racing/group rides but can help in other situations):

https://medium.com/...ying-up-607a3bf88de4

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http://www.jt10000.com/

I'm reminded of a bike racing friend who did trackstands all the time on group rides. He had problems clipping in fast at the start of races....

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http://www.jt10000.com/

I have ridden from Geneva to Nice this year over 7 HC cols but I can’t ride hands free

Mandatory. Starting and stopping.

Starting - being able to clip in or pedal one legged while conscious of the riders around you to get through lights - or get going again from special needs, aid station, etc.

Stopping - able to shift into a gear you can properly start in and being able to unclip with either foot.

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I miss you "Sports Night"

High speed descending, keeping your weight back on the bike. High speed cornering. Not riding the brakes on downhills.

I've rode with lots of folks over the years who likely couldn't do half of this stuff and they were just fine. It's not as if you need a whole lot of skill to ride a bike in a time trial situation. If you can ride in a straight line and not endanger others. . I think you're good to go.

I can do most of those things. I can do an emergency stop no problem, look over both shoulders travelling down the road and ride the rollers.

I know that I will never be able to ride hands free as I only have one good hand and the other functions at maybe 25%. Because of that I use a camelbak for all my riding. I can do a track stand for maybe 15 seconds on a good day, I would rather just unclip. Bunny hopping curbs I can do but I would rather not. Riding in a straight line is easy for me, its about focusing farther down the road. Great way to practice riding in a straight line is the use of the Garmin Varia radar, make a game out of it every time a car pops up on the radar ride on the white line or as close as possible on an imaginary line until the car passes by.

Stephan

I've never ridden rollers, so I don't know how I would do on them. however, I can handle a bicycle just fine. incredibly well, actually. 1980's BMX racing will do that for a guy/gal.

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Not everything is as it seems -Mr. Miyagi

I still can’t do a proper track stand. Raced crits for years and never crashed, and I’m more than capable of taking off or putting on a raincoat whilst riding no handed at the back of the bunch.

I can ride rollers (I think, last time I rode them was in the early ‘90’s)

Essential riding skill IMO is knowing how to lift your back wheel while braking without going over the bars. (As a drill, not an everyday thing).

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

20 ft gap jump... whilst staying on the aero bars

Thank you! Finally. All this talk about track stands and riding rollers while people fall because they can't unclip or have trouble riding in a group because they can't clip in and get started. Good on you for bringing some reality back to mandatory.

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

20 ft gap jump on the aero bars into a manual..

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Not a bike handling skill; yet maybe ahead of bunny hop, track stand or rollers. Changing a flat tire by yourself.

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

Rollers


Rollers exaggerate the impact of bad handling techniques. Bad habits/techniques that you don't notice while riding on the road will cause an immediate bike wobble (or crash) on the rollers. Most riders will get a rude awakening the first time on Rollers.


Some coaches of Junior Elites will not allow their athletes to ride on the road until they have proven their competency on rollers.


While I wouldn't rate them necessary, they are something I would recommend. And they will improve your bike handling (and highlight your bike handling weaknesses).


Track Stands


Track stands are extremely useful if you want to join fast group rides. Most riders will clip out for long waits (ie. a minute), but if you approach a light that is expected to change, being able to track stand for up to 10 seconds will be a major advantage. Loosing 5 seconds clipping in is difficult to make up on group rides averaging 45 to 50kph (28 - 31mph), especially if it happens a few times in succession.


For the average rider probably not necessary. But definitely a convenient skill to have.


Bunny hopping


It provides an extra avenue to avoid a crash. Swerving around an obstacle has the potential of taking out (or being taken out by) someone/something else you didn't realise was beside you (ie. a car, another rider).


I've been in bunch ride on a fast downhill descent where the rider next to me has completely mucked up his line into a roundabout leaving me no room. A simple bunny hop on and then off the roundabout and problem is solved.


Some speed humps can be a bit nasty for bicycles (especially if they are on a descent). Again, simply bunny over them. Same thing for fallen bidons, tree branches, pot holes, etc.


Like track stands they not necessary, but definitely convenient.


Riding hands-free


Reduces the need to stop in the middle of your ride. Opening energy bar wrappers, putting on/taking off cycling vests, cleaning muck off glasses, stretching the back, etc.


If you cannot ride hands-free, probably an indication that you need to improve your bike handling skills. Ironically something that Rollers will help you learn to do.


Emergency stops, looking over shoulder, grabbing/replacing bidons


If you cannot do any of the above, you are not only vulnerable to crashing, but also a risk to others on the ride. All are absolutely necessary.

I’m 200 lbs

I grew up racing BMX and spent 25 years on mountain bike. I can assure you, you can bunny hop curbs on your road bike with race wheels. Otherwise, your doing it wrong. Properly, you should be using your knees and elbows to properly lift and land

Some coaches of Junior Elites will not allow their athletes to ride on the road until they have proven their competency on rollers.

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pretty much every CRP athlete (post D1 single sport athletes) who's come through the USAT pipeline (Gwen, KZ, Matt, other athletes yall will never have heard of) are put on rollers, as they are usually newbs to biking and it forces them to get over the "fear" that the bike can cause at the professional level for newbies.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

x2. I'm in your camp (which seems to be common).

Maybe they're a good tool for some narrow set of skills. But not a necessary tool. I use them for track warmups, like a lot of trackies. But I can't think of any typical roller drill (e.g. 160+ cadence) that can't be taught by the road/track just as well.

I put ILTs (one leg only) also in the list of things that old-school coaches cling to that have no apparent benefit.

Let me add to the list

Biking while taking a nature brake: the pros do it

Side hop: if you can side hop, you can do other things way better

Skinnies on handlerails: If you can skinny on hand rails, you can ride a straight line

Tire Grab: If you can tire grab, you have an option in case you brake fails

Walltop: If you can walltop, you can avoid a froome style crash

Nollie 180: in case you can't stop fast enough before a red light

In seriousness. I think riding hands free is.... not encouraged... not because the skill is hard (it's so basic I would barely call it a skill)... but traffic and cable job. If I see someone trying to put on a rain jacket mid-ride, I will drop back back just in case. I have a small bike. If I bring it to a bike shop, 50% of the time, my rear brake cable will be cut too long, causing the handlebar to turn right violently unless I hold it straight. Can't expect a new rider to know that... That's actually the singular reason I learned to wrench my own bike.

Won't let them ride on the road? or won't let them race on the road? The foremost would have been rough. No way I would have gotten through collegiate if that was the case. Also, no way I could afford a pair of rollers in college. Roads are free.

ETA: NVM you saw what i replied to. The D1 turned triathletes are allowed on the roads from the beginning. I've just said that it's an added resource to get them up to speed quicker and handle their bikes better....in addition to doing crit work, teamwork pushing/bumping in grass fields, etc etc. group rides, paceline work, etc etc.

If you follow ITU, you'll also notice CRP athletes have usually the worst handling skills in the bunch, but you can very much see their progression in experience/comfort/ability. GJ and KZ are perfect examples, they initially sucked at riding in group. KZ now is a beast on it...of course that's like a 6-7 year progression, all aided by tons of different skills to make them better bike handlers.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

? aren't we talking about "mandatory" bike handling skills?

I think it's morphed into all kinds of degrees of bike skills since the OP.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I guess I wasn't quite following. This thread also doesn't distinguish, what the bike handling skill is for: Sunday rides, crit racing, draft ITU races, or no-draft TT.

For Sunday rides, I would say the most important skill is: observing traffic rules.

Go ride your bike and keep on riding it until you can answer your own question. The people responding with great answers learned through years on the saddle and not through a forum.

Did you guys forget to send a pair of rollers to Summer? :-)

I was going to say the same thing but bit my tongue...then you posted it. :)

I spent a few years around that weight and I've been several more not far below it. I've bunny hopped over plenty potholes, and one or two kerbs. I've never once considered the bunny hop more risky than the obstacle it avoided. I don't do bunny hops for fun. I do them as a last minute emergency means of reducing/eliminating impacts. Under what circumstance would a bunny hop increase risk, regardless of your weight?

With explanations:

Even a modest bunny hop:
There's been times on a group ride or riding solo you come across an obstacle that may cause a puncture or crash if your wheel hits it. Pot hole, rock, dead hooker........whatever. I had someone not call a freaking crater out on a Sunday stroll group ride once and was able to hop it. I can't bunny hop well at all. But I guess fear of my front wheel disappearing into a cavern suddenly gave me the ability to do so.

Not a track stand, but even a super slow roll:
It is SO annoying on a group ride when you roll to an intersection or stop light and immediately people start unclipping to put a foot down when we're going to be able to roll. Slow down, and balance as you move forward maybe an inch or so at a time. I can sympathize downhill, but flat or uphill folks need to stop immediately being lazy and putting feet down before even knowing if the group will be stopping for a bit for the road to clear.

Not bike handling, but a request about choosing a group ride:
A lot of tri folks are super strong. Can hold let's say 250w for like 2 hours nonstop. But, doesn't mean you can hold even 300's for short periods of time. Don't show up to the A-group, try to pass everyone down hill, and then almost drop off the back uphill. It's annoying AF to constantly have someone filtering back and forth because they can't handle the surges. Go do the B-group, or work on handling the surges and come back later. I wouldn't show up to your fastest tri-bike ride and expect to hold 250w nonstop for hours and keep up or do weird stuff to not fall off.

In a group/paceline.........a note on freehub noise:
If I can hear a bunch of freehub noises, lots of people are WRONG. Use your body position to alter your speed using the wind. Keep it in a gear that makes sense and keep the feet turning over such that your movement in the group is very smooth. Not all this freehub noise and then on the gas, freehub noise, on the gas BS.

You keep conflating improving confidence and comfort with being "skills". They're not skills. They're feelings.

Feelings that are gained while riding.

It's not that I can't comprehend. It's that you're trying to say one thing (skills) while then saying another (feelings), and you don't seem aware of what either thing actually are in the context of riding a bicycle (hint: you don't need rollers for either).

Nothing you've said above can't be gained from simply riding. There's no "stability muscles" that are worked on when riding rollers that aren't worked on by riding on the road (or simply rolling out of bed and walking to the toilet).

No, there's never an "only:" way. But you asserted rollers are necessary for skills.

Now you assert they're necessary for feelings.

Yet the fact remains that one need not ever touch a set of rollers in the first place.

And you keep skipping all around that very simple point.

Ha!

It's funny how specific actual racing skills can be.

Agreed 100%- straight line riding, being able to look over both shoulders while keeping a smooth line, drinking without weaving, controlled braking/stopping, tight turns, smooth mount and dismount. I took one-to-one coaching for skills as I came as a total newbie to clipless pedals AND to cycling generally, even though I am married to a cyclist (possibly because I am married to a cyclist). I didn't witness anybody on my (only 2) tri bike courses who looked "out of control" but I certainly saw a lot of people drafting (probably not on purpose is my guess) and not staying over to the right, sitting on the left, riding shoulder to shoulder, and if we are talking about ME during my Oly last weekend, stopping to eat and drink because I hadn't really gotten the hang of it and didn't want to endanger anyone. I have been working REALLY hard to get that controlled one-hand riding that lets me eat and drink and will definitely say it has been a challenge, but a game-changer, and if you do it really well, don't forget how tricky it can be for us beginners.

I forgot to address the rollers thing.............trackies are fixed gear and the rollers lends itself well to the way you have to ride a fixed gear bike and not send yourself flying over the handlebars or crashing out on the track. You can't sprint or apply power on a fixed gear bike on a track the exact way you do on a road bike. Almost none of it outside of perhaps doing tasks no-hands on a road bike are applicable to rollers.

I'm guessing before fluid trainers and mag trainers existed for a road bike, road bike users adopted the track rollers to be able to do something indoors instead of using a stationary bike.

No I asserted that by doing rollers you improve your handling skills and thus make you “feel” better on the bike and more confident. Which translates to better riding. Whether a feeling or a skill you seem hung up on that. And that’s cool, you have your process, I’ll have mine.

But really at the end of the day just ride your damn bike. Whether on rollers, whether on trainer to get stronger, whether in a parking lot working on skills, whether in a grass field to get comfortable being pushed around, whether in a strong paceline...just about anything on your bike will make you a better rider from my POV. Obviously you differ.

There’s a thousand ways you can improve you handling skills, we just differ on what rollers allow you to do. By your basic admittance rollers let you ride rollers, at its basic level, is balancing yourself to not fall off. They force you to find balance and control point which is important on riding a bike. So maybe it’s not an “necesssary” skill it’s also an setup that does work. It’s also something I don’t put AG athletes on, as non-draft triathlon doesn’t require that type of attention and close combat control. DL athletes yes just as I make them do other more specific handling skills than a regular triathlete.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Hmmm...the OP just said Bunny Hop. So I wasn't thinking of bunny hopping an obstacle or up the curb but rather straight up...unless there's some new lingo for that.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

I thought the entire point of being able to bunny hop was to avoid obstacles, whether intentional ones as in cyclocross or MTB or to avoid road furniture, potholes, etc on the road. I presume that's why the OP thinks it's a worthwhile skill.

My recollection of bunny hopping is from being a stupid kid that rode his bike to school and guys put pegs on their bikes for no other reason than they thought they were cool.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Yes and it’s interesting what you can do when “practicing” it vs what you can actually do when you see a big ass pot hole ahead and you have to clear it. To me it seems more when your required to do it and actually do it, it’s simpler than “practicing it”. You just do it on the road vs thinking about every aspect of it when your practicing it. But it’s a good skill to atleast know how to do so you can do it on the roads.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

You can't? I'm a track racer, and I never considered it be different.

Yep. I've never done any serious practice. I've occasionally experimented when, say, I would encounter a little patch of rough tarmac that I could ride over or around easily but tried hopping it regardless to get a feel for it. On occasions when I've actually needed to hop something to avoid a real risk of damage or a crash, it's always worked out so far. I still wouldn't fancy having to jump a person, fallen bike or a high kerb at speed. I doubt very much I'd manage that!

To me at least.......it looks different as a spectator. For some reason the roadies look like they sway the bike more.

Also, you can tell us, but I thought on the track since it's fixed gear that certain road-going pedaling habits could cause you to crash. Like a roadie having the tendency to constantly free-wheel with the legs sitting still.

AND....no matter how many times you state this you will still be wrong! Swimmers don’t reach their potential by simply swimming, runners don’t reach their potential by simply running, and cyclists don’t reach their potential by simply riding. Your mind set is the number one reason for repetitive stress injuries, and if true this thread would not have started. Many (most) on this forum know riders who ride multiple times a week, for multiple years, and still can’t look behind, or properly get a bottle without losing control of their bikes. So no, simply riding is not the answer.

Riding rollers teach you to ride straight without swerving side to side all.over the place. Riding rollers teach you how to not swerve when you grab your water bottle, eat, etc.
Riding rollers teaches you to pay attention 100% of the time. In all 3 cases, if you don't do that on rollers, you end up shooting across the room, on your ass, or some combo therof.

All three things are SORELY lacking in the average triathlete. I always laugh when I read people talking about how they are scared to ride outside because of cars. Me, I'm scared to ride in closed courses because they are plugged with triathletes who can't ride straight on a flat, straight, road since all they do is train locked in place on a smart trainer.

Adde d benefit: Rollers also teach you smoother pedal stroke, which helps everybody from beginner to advanced.

+1 on taking some contact.
+1million on not panicking, in pretty much any situation. Losing your shit will never help the situation.

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

Getting your ass on some tight singletrack will teach you more about bike handling than rollers.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Yes the concept he has come to would mean there’s zero skills to work on that would translate other than just “riding” your bike.

Riding in a grass field working on contact would only help you ride in a grass field bumping people apparently. That process is used to make riders more comfortable and improve their handling skills that then translate onto the road, etc. everything can’t be done in a “riding” situation only. There’s a progression that makes the whole process better and safer for everyone involved.

Rollers aren’t the necessary item it’s the bike handling that rollers works on that is necessary. So if you work on bike handling in X way vs Y way that’s great but the end result is it’s all working on getting your handling skills better.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

One requires a larger investment because your buying another bike, but yes mtb/cx are great for handling skills.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

1) Mounting and riding 50m within (pick a number) ...of seconds. Without falling off.
2) Dismounting, riding 50m into dismount area and dismounting without falling over.
3) Repeat after me...... Ride on the right, pass on the left. (10 times?)

Bike handling skills ARE important and rollers have a positive influence on how you ride. People who have lots of experience (especially BMX/MTB/CX ) already have skills that rollers won't really improve. But for many of us, riding rollers develops steering and balance skills that are a notch above what you learn just riding down the road. And they help you stay sharp.

That said, people don't ride rollers just to improve skills, they also train on them. In the era of the modern smart roller, the idea that you can do serious training indoors and either maintain or improve your handling skills at the same time is compelling. Rigid trainers are divorced from the actual physics of riding, which is going to be detrimental to your skills if you do it for long periods. For most triathletes, doing ZWIFT or Trainer Road sessions on a smart roller rather than a trainer will be an automatic skill booster and an easy way to get more benefit from the hours spent indoors.

To be clear, you're asserting that I'm wrong that you don't ever have to ride rollers to ride comfortably, carefully, safely, aggressively (insert your adverb, here)?

Okay.

And this topic was started because of repetitive injuries?

I think you're cross-posting on the wrong thread.

It does? So if you don't ride rollers, you can't do those things? Rollers are unique and special in that regard?

Oh, the additional benefit. You hit the antiquated nonsense trifecta I mentioned several posts ago. Kudos.

You're projecting your own inabilities and lack of skills, here.

That's great that you're aware of them, and taking steps to address them, but again, it's straight up nonsense to suggest that rollers are this magical thing that give you these higher level skills that you can't get by, you know, actually riding your bike in various situations. I mean, hell, does it blow your mind that there are high level road and crit racers (and just regular riders that don't race) that don't ride rollers? Or are they just naturally endowed with these elusive magical bike handling skills?

You slipped when you included your comments that there are ways to get better on a bike in “various scenarios”. If your admitting that to then say a another scenario that includes bike handling somehow doesn’t help is ignorant.

So as I said the goal is bike handling- rollers or crit work or leaning on someone’s elbows or paceline work; are all just different scenarios to get better handling skills.

I’m just pushing back on your idea that rollers do nothing for you but ride rollers better. That there is no carry over into handling skills is complete head scratcher. Like your admitting some scenarios make you a better bike and others don’t? That makes no sense, when rollers behave the way they do.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

What are you going on about? What's this, your 7th or 8th post now and you STILL can't actually tell anyone what these "higher level skills" and all that nonsense actually are?

Various scenarios like the ones I mentioned in my second or third post? Riding in a group? Cornering? Descending? Guess what you don't get good at when you ride alone? Guess what you don't get good at if you never go down a hill/mountain? Guess what you never get good at if you don't turn? I could go on and on about various scenarios. I feel the rationality will still escape you.

It's a head-scratcher that you keep talking about these mysterious skills but are incapable or articulating what these said skills are.

I've accepted that you're simply talking out of your ass and really don't have any specific reasons for your nonsensical replies, which is why I stopped replying to you. But here you are again, perpetuating more nonsense. How many posts are you NOT going to actually back up any of your silliness?

- you have been stating so much nonsense you are losing track of what you are responding to!
My reply was to this statement of yours-
“Nothing you've said above can't be gained from simply riding. There's no "stability muscles" that are worked on when riding rollers that aren't worked on by riding on the road (or simply rolling out of bed and walking to the toilet).”
There are absolutely stability muscles engaged on rollers that are not worked by riding on the road, or rolling out of bed and walking to the toilet! If your assertion was true, anyone who has done a reasonable about of riding (or going to the toilet), could easily ride on rollers. This is absolutely not the case. Rollers did not lose popularity because they weren’t effective, they lost popularity because they are f’n hard to ride! Talk to absolutely anyone who has ridden them for a reasonable period of time, and 100% would tell you it improved their handling and overall riding. Are they mandatory? I have already said no. Are they helpful? Absolutely. Your statements show the mindset of so many triathletes, yet are absolutely horrible at handling their bikes, which is the exact topic of this thread. As I also noted, if just riding your bike would give you the needed skills, this thread would have never started. Literally thousands of triathletes who ride their bikes a lot (and presumably go to the toilet a lot) are BAD bike handlers!

You made a statement that rollers dont do anything but make you better at rollers. Several people on this thread have countered that viewpoint, and not a single person has said that rollers are the only way to improve handling skills. They've simply showcased as have I, how they improve handling. Your failure to recognize that is on you. Nothing more.

And no one in this thread has said that rollers are the only way to get better handling skills. I've just countered your viewpoint with another viewpoint, and apparently others have used rollers to help as well. Yet you continue with whatever of your own bullshit.

So again no one has said rollers are the only method, we've simply countered your points with various points that actual showcase how riding rollers helps with handling. That you seem to not want to validate, well that's your own ignorance at this point.

So not much else to discuss, you dont see value in rollers. Many others do. Many others see value in a bunch of different ways to get better handling skills (I'm in that camp). What I dont think you can say though is that rollers dont help, I mean you can certainly keep saying that. Just a lot of other people will disagree with that stance.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

My statements show the mindset of a triathlete?

If I told you I've never done a triathlon in my life, and that was a cat 1 racing internationally before I'd ever personally seen a pair or rollers, would it change any of the silliness in your post?

No, probably not. Such is the state of vacuous, irrational streams of consciousness.

Hey bro, before typing up a four paragraph response of the same stuff you've already said in a dozen other paragraphs, can you just tell me what these skills are (either the higher level skills, the bike skills, the handling skills, or whatever other skills you've mentioned so far)?

Otherwise this continued waste of time has lost what little entertainment value you've managed to sustain up to this point.

It’s the skills that you keep replying back to other ppl with “so rollers are only skill that does that”. Of which not a single person in this thread has said rollers are only way to achieve that handling improvements,

Lol

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

So no mysterious roller skills, then.



My second post. Called it from the get-go.

You can be a world class international level cyclist and have a background without rollers and you can be a world class rider or coach with a background in rollers or you can be a total newbie or 50 year veteran of cycling that uses rollers to make you better. There's no "right way" to get better handling, there's 100's of scenarios to get better at handling your bike. If you don't think rollers help, fanfreakingtastic. Others have simply countered your point with their own experience, and yet only yours is correct?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

My view is that rollers aren't necessary, as stated in my earliest posts. You've spent a dozen threads trying to argue that very simple point while alluding to magical roller skills and in the end have come up with nothing.

That's all.

I think it was your original comment that rollers only help make you better at rollers; that's what I took to question. With that theory pretty much any "skill" is only applicable to that said skill to make you better. But of course that's not true, as going out into a field and bumping each other improves the athlete's ability to handle close quarters and gets them more confident with handling their bike. Or doing paceline work at their weekly ride will improve their ability and confidence around others, etc. and thus make them better in a larger packs. Hitting the trainer hard will help make you stronger but without "group" riding skills, you are going to be dangerous. Of course in 15 years when everything is virtual racing anyways, we wont even need any bike handling skills anymore. We'll just all be sitting in our pain caves seeing who can put out the most watts.

My original reply did use "necessary" and it was more in the sense that it's an scenario imo that makes you better at handling, which you didn't seem to agree too. I also didn't think it's an mandatory thing because I think for most non-draft triathletes there are far more important aspects of riding/racing that will help them. IE- holding a line and grabbing your bottle without swerving; or looking both left/right and not swerving. So if you took exception to "necessary" fair enough. (I only give rollers to draft legal triathletes where imo handling/comfort/confidence is "next level" important while non-draft athletes I think there are better specific situations to work on). So it's really all in what you want out of your bike handling imo. Non-draft athletes I think can get away with having less skills than a athlete who's riding in close quarters for their events; so I dont coach the 2 the same).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Interesting idea... Not too sure what we learn with the bottom 5 test.

IMO something as simple as asking people to climb 200m @ 10% should weed-out the people that didn't do their homework (i have lapped so many people walking up hills with gear left on at the back... very unlikely to make the cutoff anyway). Otherwise the sport need to be inclusive.

Hey, you're correct. You CAN learn those things riding outside if you practice.

Lemme ask you this though: How many triathletes do you know who practice transitions?

Based on a sample soze of the few dozen triatheletes I know, I'd put it at about 10%. Something super critical.. free speed even... that tri dorks like you and I all know we SHOULD practice, but nearly all DON'T.

Same goes for any and all skill drills, like the above mentioned riding straight, etc.

That's the catch to your "they could teeewtullay lurn dose skeeels enywhure" arguement...

Rollers don't give you the choice. If you ride rollers, you learn those skills or you crash.

As far as your "useless trifecta", keep believing that. Hell, convince as many people as possible that smooth pedaling is bad. Bounce all over on your bike. Waste as much energy as possible. Please! It only helps the results of everyone else.

But, for the love of god, please don't try to convince people not to do things that improve their bike handling skills (and therefore my safety on course)..

By the way, why do you have such a hatred for Rollers? And don't try to deny it. Clearly you have a large chip on your shoulder about them. Its kinda odd.

You state that someone can develop all needed bike skills by simply riding, or just going to the toilet.
I point out that rollers are a useful tool, and there are literally thousands of examples of people that ride a lot, and have poor riding skills (which is the point of this thread)
And you conclude MY statements are “the state of vacuous, irrational streams of consciousness??”
Sounds like you have taken a few too many falls without a helmet- perhaps you should have tried some rollers are some of the other mentioned ways of improving your skills. (Last statement pink)
As noted by others, you are entitled to your beliefs, but please, please do not encourage others to ignore common sense practices to improve their bike skills.

I stand by what I said before.
Plenty of racers already have great bike handling, but for many cyclists, just riding the rollers is essentially a drill for specific skills, ones you would not learn except in specific circumstances. They include:
Riding in a narrow space, keeping a neutral stance, powering out of collisions with other riders, getting out of the saddle without shoving the bike backwards, direct feedback on pedaling smoothness and using body english to control the bike.
It's not the only way to get skills, but it's an expedited process because you are riding in a more demanding environment.
This also means there's an element of risk when on the rollers, which in my opinion is why many people prefer trainers. Unfortunately, they are the ones who would benefit the most.

Just curious. How do you get out of the saddle without "shoving the bike backwards"?
You can get up more smoothly, but this isn't a skill IMO, just a habit. Whatever way you do it, the bike will go backwards relative to the rider unless you adopt a rather strange out of the saddle postion. If the rider's centre of mass moves forward relative to that of the centre of mass of the combined rider & bike, the bike will move aft relative to that combined centre of mass. This cannot be avoided via aquired skills. You instead need to avoid the constraints of the physical world. Good luck with that ;P

Don't repeat it too many times or you could have problems when you decide to race in UK, Ireland, Australia, Japan, New Zealand, India, South Africa, Thailand, and a few others places....

A friend in college, track bike rider, would mess with me on road rides. Lean into me while going down the road. Put his front wheel against my back wheel slowing me down. I guess more adept riders like to help us improve our bike handling skills so we don't crash them some day.

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

I have ridden rollers and haven't ridden rollers for sometime. Are they mandatory? If we use the term mandatory strictly, then we would have cyclists who can't ride rollers falling on every ride.

I would put them in next level bike handling skills, not in mandatory skills. Next level bike handling skills for riders who want to be Cat3 or above. Maybe AG podium.

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

Yes you pretty much summed up my thoughts/theory.

I’ll jist go on the record and say adding rollers imo will def make you a better and safer rider so thus they accomplish what I’m looking for in using rollers. So whether someone else agrees or disagrees I’ll just put my athletes safety and performance record as evidence it’s working for my athletes. And it’s not specifically rollers, but they play a part in the whole grand scheme of things.

I’m just not arrogant enough to say it doesn’t work when being faced with evidence from others showcasing it does.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

True, it was a NA centric response (on what is a mostly NA centric forum)

Should I ever race there it might scare the crap out of me as some slow arse'd swimmer, rockets past me to the right on the bike leg.
I did race London in 2011'ish (ITU Worlds, what an amazing bike course, a trip through history), where for some reason NA rules were applied.

Yeah, I know. Just messin' with you!

Why do you continue to beat this to death? I think everyone here has pointed out that they are a supplement, not a replacement. Not mandatory, but a "nice to use".

he could have added "relative to riders around you", frame of reference being important. On rollers I suspect you want to smoothly move your CG forward.

I've seen a lot of triathletes that can't even hold a line on a straight road. I'm guessing most of them have never owned a road bike in their life and learned on a time trial bike.

Sorry you don't agree. Shall I rephrase it?
Getting out of the saddle in close quarters while avoiding contact with riders directly behind you is a "characteristic" acquired through "experience". You drill it into your "technique" until you do it "instinctively" in all situations. Rollers (whether floating or rigid) will naturally develop this skill...oops, I've called it a skill again.

Surely you know this is the internet, right?

You cannot learn not to conserve momentum.
You can learn to move smoothly and that may be advantageous on rollers, so if that was your point, fine. I'm just trying to clarify what is, and is not a skill, and check I understand what you meant.

It's not just moving smoothly, it's learning how to (smoothly) apply extra power over a certain duration to overcome the transfer of momentum, in turn keeping your bike from (relatively) lurching "backwards" into the wheel of the rider behind you. p=mv, but F=ma (I'm talking out my ass there, I'm not an engineer, but it's something like that) and in this situation, you can skillfully apply additional F, and rollers can help you learn how to execute that - if do it wrong on the rollers, it's quite obvious, so you can get objectively better at it with minimal bloodshed and/or profanity on the part of your fellow riders. Of course if you are all out of discretionary F to apply, then you're going to lurch unavoidably, but hopefully the rider on your wheel has seen the writing on the wall and isn't right up in your business in that case.