Sorry I was unclear. Yes, I meant banned in competition.

And to mag -- if Rupp's asthma is bad enough to be using prednisone, there's no way he's 'cheating' by using albuterol. Prednisone is heavy duty shit.

i went from 12:49 to 10:54 in less than 2 years. i'm really not impressed with EPO if you only shave off 2ish hours...

john

A few thoughts...

1) more than a few of us have pointed out that there is no performance advantage to these drugs if you don't have asthma. You seem willing to ignore this.

2) if TUE's are near-impossible to get for testosterone, why do you think they are handed out like Cracker Jack prizes for albuterol (or similar substances)

3) many people do not know they have asthma (primarily exercise-induced asthma) because they don't ....wait for it.....exercise. If I did not exercise, I would never know that I have it. Therefore,MIT is not surprising (and hardly a conspiracy ) that the incidence of EIA is significantly higher in athletes because they.....wait for it again....exercise.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

(1) you seem willing to ignore the 1000s of world class endurance athletes across a range of sports in many different countries who beg to differ with you. i trust what their pharma experts think works over some mickey mouse studies that analyzed sedentary people or what some posters on here anecdotally have concluded.

(2) who said a TUE for testosterone is near-impossible to get?

(3) i have no idea what your point is here and do not know how that relates to athletes who don't have asthma who have TUEs for asthma.

This is the kind of simpleton thinking that condones people cheating with TUEs. No, the drugs not only reduce inflammation, they also relax the "muscles mak[ing] the airways larger, allowing air to pass through the lungs easier." Which alternative universe do you live in that allowing air to pass through the lungs easier does not help aerobic capacity?

http://www.thoracic.org/...-bronchodilators.php

The fact that a drug that helps someone with difficulty breathing breathe easier might also help someone who has normal breathing isn't exactly rocket science. You can stick to your studies of sedentary people but I trust the medical people of 1000s of Olympic athletes who believe it helps. Come up with some real science and then we can talk. In the meantime, don't give all of the non-asthma sufferers a free pass for taking asthma drugs. It's wrong and shouldn't be allowed.

Ohh for the love of god, no it will not help someone who is breathing normally if they do not have the physiological symptoms that these medications address.

Lets say that I am running a fever because a bacterial infection. I take antibiotics and my body temperature is reduced. If I was not sick and took antibiotics, my body temperture does go down.

Just because lots of athletes use it, does not mean that it works. Lots of athletes do lots of things that probably do not help, like vitamins. Second, they are more likely to find out they have asthma because they are actually working out. Third, it is possible that the genes that result in the superior cardio vascular system could make you more susceptible to asthma. Or maybe the fact they had asthma growing up led to adaptations due to restricted breathing that result in superior efficiency. All of these are way more likely than the scientists at WADA allowing TUEs, seriously when have they ever not leaned conservatively toward a substance? Seriously, name one instance.

Are you going to start calling people that drink a coffee before a race dopers since caffeine is actually a proven performance enhancer?

For the love of god will you stop with the completely unsupported rants about how asthma drugs don't provide any performance improvement for elite aerobic athletes? You haven't provide a single shred of evidence in that regard other than "I SAID SO" and a study that used sedentary people when MANY elite athletes in many different sports who have access to much better research and testing than you do flatly disagree with you. You keep on embarrassing yourself by blindly throwing out "vitamins". Which elite athletes are taking which useless "vitamins"? Training groups, like the NOP, are tightly controlled and popping useless pills with no TUEs that have the potential to trigger a failed drug test are exactly the kind of thing that they steer clear of. Do you have a list of useless vitamins Galen Rupp or some other USADA tested athlete is on? If not, you can stop with the strawman use of "vitamins".

I have no idea what you are talking about with "lots of athletes do lots of things that probably do not help". So should I assume that that track workout that Gomez did last week falls into that category? What about the bike ride the Brownlees took yesterday? I know this is having a hard time sinking in but professional athletes do not get TUEs en masse for drugs that have no positive benefit.

Your final question shows how truly clueless you are (you seem to like asking irrelevant questions). No, I would not call someone who drinks a cup of coffee before a race a doper because, surprise, surprise, caffeine isn't a banned substance by WADA (that probably is a shock to you). Would you call someone who takes a sip of water before a race a doper?

I had a lung capacity test done for AEI suspicion by doc based on described symptoms(was something else in the end)

the capacity was measured several times in a chamber after some exercise then testing repeated several times after a few varying doses of albuterol. there was no change in lung capacity.

so if no change in capacity from albuterol, exactly what advantage would it give me to use?

I still have an rx for it, and use it when I get a chest cold, as if I don't and develop a cough the cough will last 6 weeks without vs 2 weeks with. this n=1 for me has been borne out for me on more than one occasion. fortunately I haven't had to refill this rx in a few years now.

+1E12

As amateur competitors, shouldn't we have more input regarding policy on punishment? Who really thinks that 2 years is sufficient? This is a clear case for 5+ year or lifetime ban. I can't fathom how someone that systematically invested so much time, money and effort in to cheating over such a long period should ever be allowed back into the sport. Not to mention the people he stole qualifying slots from.

I am amongst those who feel everyone needs to be held to the same standard. BOP, MOP, FOP or pro doesn't matter. However I would be more willing to give the BOP guy who got busted for (maybe legitimately prescribed) testosterone only a 1 or 2-year ban but hand down a lifetime ban for someone who took a KQ slot while on EPO.

Really? Your "proof" is an article (not a study) dealing with COPD? Hmmmm....OK. That sounds reasonable.

So here is the "real science" you requested, so "let's talk". Please indicate why these studies are faulty. In addition, please provide studies that contradict the conclusions in these studies.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24100289

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21142283 (note: this is a review of 26 different studies, not a single study)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21327796

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/...5C527967ED651.f04t01

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

No, you are the one saying "I SAID SO!" You have absolutely no data to back up your conclusion and it goes against all studies done on this and also is not supported by first principals.

You really are dense. I said lots of athletes do SOME things that are useless, for example single leg drills on the bike, not EVERYTHING they do is useless.

Did an inhaler kill your parents in a dark alley while you grew up or something?

Seriously when has WADA been anything but conservative with a substance?

See previous post. Plenty of studies supporting the fact that asthma meds do NOT provide benefit to athletes.


Hmmmm....seems youa re the one who is clueless in this regard. Asthma meds are NOT banned by WADA, except in very high doses. Which, coincidentally, is exactly the same situation as caffeine.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Agreed. I'm just saying this guy deserves more than 2 years. The BOP guy who took the wrong cold medicine isn't of interest (at all.) Gray zone is the person who is caught and denies any knowledge and claims short term use.

Oh that cleared things up, I believe you had no idea what your 2 brothers were up to even if you were training and racing with them...;)

TUEs for testosterone are not particularly easy to get. The problem with concluding that testosterone is a useful PED for endurance athletes based on the fact that "1000s use them..." is that they are also using other things in conjunction with testosterone which could explain the increase in performance. In other words, those aren't controlled subjects. I have certainly seen anabolic steroids work as a PED for bodybuilders but that is to actually "shred" the muscle and burn fat to make the bodybuilder look better. When it comes to actual strength they are a little less noticeable, 6% in controlled studies. No studies have linked anabolic steroids (or testosterone) to PED in any events longer than 800 meters. Careful with bandwagon logic, a lot of athletes that no absolutely nothing (every baseball player) about biology will take whatever PED the other guy is taking (regardless of whether it works or not) to make sure they don't have a competitive disadvantage.

As an amateur athlete, I am much more concerned about amateurs doping than pros because it affects me directly. When a pro dopes, it's disappointing and interesting trivia. But when an age grouper dopes in my race, they are attempting to steal my results and and accomplishments and hard work. That pisses me off.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Are they going to steal your finisher's medal? Abscond with your branded t-shirts, jackets, and license plate holder? I am sorry to tell you this, but your finish in an amateur race doesn't mean dick. The only value is measuring yourself against your own potential. How that compares with others is meaningless.

i know it can be tested - just do the PFTs that asthmatics get (FEV1/FVC ratio, FEV, vital capacity, flow volume loops, etc.) and do it pre- and post-albuterol. thats a normal test for us.

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http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

It means something to me. My place means something to me. If your race doesn't mean dick to you, then that is your own personal problem, don't project your issues onto others. Why do you even enter races with other people? Just go out and run the course by yourself against the clock. If the competition is meaningless then all the rules, including doping and drafting and course cutting are meaningless too.

And why is a pro's finish any more meaningful than an amateur? It is not.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Beta receptors are not only located in the lung and their only effects are not to bronchodialate. Albuterol and Clenbuterol are related medications. Clenbuterol is what cause Contador to lose his Tour de France victory and get suspended. Beta agonists increase lean muscle mass when ingested. The evidence for similar effects when inhaled is weaker.

I should note that does not mean that I believe asthmatics or exercise induced asthmatics should not receive therapy. However, to point out that the primary effect of a drug is not the only effect.

I guess that's your view and I think we can all respect it.....especially if you're fast and regularly place in your age group! I think we could agree that in terms of impact on the sport, preventing or catching one upper tier pro or stud amateur certainly would have more of an impact on the sport than preventing or catching Mr. or Ms. 1,021 at Ironman Florida next year though?

I also enjoy competition and comparing myself to the competition in races. Especially in big races though, I'm just not sure it matters that much to me whether a competitor or two in front of me cheated. As a thought experiment, I tried to guess my placing in my one and only Ironman race without checking my certificate or the internet and failed miserably. The best I could come up with was a range of 150-600 which was largely just using logic vs. any actual memory. (actual placement was 483). For a dollar, I'd bet that at least one of the 482 people in front of me that day were on something illegal. I'd also bet a dollar that the vast majority weren't, so I really don't care about a few mediocre outliers as long as the bulk of the competitors were competing fair. Now, if I was 1 slot away from a KQ that day I'd obviously care a whole hell of a lot more, and for this reason I guess I'd argue that cheating should be weighed by the severity of the side effects on competitors and the sport. If the guy ahead of me at Ironman Wisconsin cheated, he moved a bunch of competitors from 482 to 483, and 483 to 484, and down the line. I certainly couldn't give a hoot, although obviously others might. Now if number 6 cheated, he likely stole a Kona slot, which I think we'd both agree has more value than the difference between 482nd and 483rd place. If a top ranked ITU triathlete is cheating, they're literally stealing 6 figures worth of prize and endorsement money.

Makes a difference if one is trying to get to some world events.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I do feel that testosterone should not be allowed. There is a scale of ergogenic properties of ingested substances. Anabolic steroid use has been reported to increase muscle mass by ~15 pounds when compared to no use during a 3 month training regime. That is an enormous effect. It also increases mitochondrial density in myocytes permanently.

EPO should not be allowed. Once again the effects on capabilities is dramatic and no one really knows (in a research setting) what happens to one's physiologic capabilities when taken regularly over long periods of time compared to not.

If an age grouper gets busted for pseudofed because they had some allergies, that's a whole different ball game.

That's bullshit. They are potentially stealing podiums and qualification slots. And they are stealing self worth and pride.

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Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
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