a whistleblower of some sort? APG employee or customer with an attack of conscience?

beats me. my only (tenuous) connection is the possibility I raced against the guy from WI who got busted in the same investigation. once. I'd need far more race contact (at least) to go the whistleblower route.

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Carl Matson

Wow that website was eye opening to say the least. Tells you how to dose epo, how to test your own hematocrit, what supplements to take while on epo, etc. etc. Hopefully these 2 people will just be the tip of the iceberg of everyone who has gotten epo from this site.

I would agree with this at major races in the competitive age groups. And I do not believe any athlete in that group is unaware that the banned substances they're taking are against the rules.

Unfort we've been around and around on the debate of how to pop more age groupers many times, and there are few practical solutions.

I agree that cheating is cheating. A cheater at last place is cut from the same cloth as a cheater in first.

However, from an enforcement perspective, I would rather see them go after the cheaters whose cheating not only impacts more people (more people finished after them), but whose cheating had a greater impact on those people (at the top, there are national championship spots lost, Kona spots lost, age group awards lost, etc.).

Not to mention, as an auditor, I wouldn't waste as much time and energy testing the MOP/BOP. There isn't as much risk of them cheating as the FOP. Great for them, they caught one, but how many did they have to test to get that one guy? They could've tested the same number of FOP and busted more, I bet.

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Chris Harris

Or the website was setup by USADA?

All of my asthma meds are on the monitoring program, one of them is illegal if I take it rectally... The amount of caffeine needed to get popped is outrageous.

If the guy first bought EPO in 2011 and wasn't sanctioned until 2015, how long was the investigation into the supplier? How big of a network did the supplier have? May this Radcliffe fellow be the first to fall of many? Seems odd that you would only have a couple busted athletes from a "distributor" of EPO. That is a pretty small customer base.

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Pactimo brand ambassador, ask me about promo codes

"Or the website was setup by USADA?"

to actually sell EPO? i doubt it. ballsy if they did it. but i doubt it.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I disagree that more value exists at the top. It is as important to prevent cheating at the bottom of the MLB than it is to prevent it in the teams that are winning the world series. Its AS important to prevent a C+ kid form cheating as it is an A student. Everyone says "it would be better to catch the fast guys." But why? Better for whom? What would your argument be to the guy who got stuck behind the MOP cheater? Sorry, its not like you were going to win prize money anyways. Is that really the answer?

I absolutely understand that and agree there are limited resources. However, I happen to be of the belief that you can't put a price on catching a cheater. This is about preserving the integrity of the sport. Integrity exists whether prize money is won or not. So spreading out the resources a bit is going to be a good return on investment. Catching a MOP cheater is as good as catching a FOP or podium. Otherwise the take home is that MOPers can cheat because they're not "worth" the testing.

I firmly believe you have to remove any objective prize value from this. A person in last place deserves to have as fair competition within his/her AG race as the pros do in their race.

Actually I would think FOP are more at risk for testing so you may have less people cheating. <-- That is not scientifically supported, just my own educated guess so I could definitely be wrong.

If I have great odds at winning but I know the winners have a greater chance at being tested then I'm not going to risk it. But a MOPer stands far less chance to be tested bc he/she is not likely to place, so he/she may perceive less risk to cheating and can pat themselves on the back with a higher finish.

The problem is, the racers funding drug testing/enforcement averages to be exactly MOP. As someone who isn't FOP, I'd rather just opt out of whatever extra fees I am paying to regulatory bodies if you're going to ignore any cheating that goes on after the top 3 finished.

Kind of mine thought on it as well, whether right or not it does make a little sense.

I'll ask the same question: is it equally as important to prevent cheating at the bottom of the NFL or MLB as it is in the Superbowl or World Series?


Trust me, I understand your view as well as other people who place value on the podium finishes. But I just haven't heard a logical argument (yet) as to why it is better for the sport to prevent cheating at the podium than within the packs. To me, the sport is the same at the top as it is the bottom.


The only thing I've heard people say is that resources are limited, so its better to make the sure proper people are getting prize money and recognition than it is to make sure the average Agers are racing clean as well. To ME, the integrity is based on money and that is a flawed approach. I admit I can be swayed though.


Didn't mean to make you sound like you advocate cheating. Not my intent at all.

Great point. I think it sends a bad message to the rest of the racers, majority of whom will never be FOP or podium.

In the USADA media release, they say:

"The investigation is ongoing and may result in additional cases being brought against others. USADA has worked with law enforcement to cooperatively investigate cases and values their partnership in defending clean sport."

This implies that criminal activity was going on, being investigated by law enforcement, and maybe they just passed some documents with names to USADA. Presumably they were investigating the illegal dispension of prescription drugs, which I believe is a felony crime in most, if not all, states.

The involvement of law enforcement and the threat of prison is increasingly becoming the ONLY way to practically bust PED users. Let's face it, Lance was only finally busted when his teammates spilled to the Feds. As we know, drug testing is about the least effective way of catching cheats.

me too, Slowman. What are the possibilities:
1) USADA got a court order to search customer list.
2) The group cooperated with authorities.
3) Actually this is the most obvious answer: a small group was doing it together, someone found out and turned everyone in.

Most enforcement agencies do not have subpoena power. Does USADA?

i was given a script by my doctor for (it turns out OTC) med that was a combination of 3 meds and one was betamethasone (or something like that). I had no clue until a few days after taking it that it was prohibited.

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http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

That is fun to imagine but no way. Supplying dangerous drugs to cheats is not an acceptable means to an end.

No.

More likely:

1) The place was busted by the feds.
2) The feds handed over records to USADA.

Entrapment?

Wow that website was eye opening to say the least. Tells you how to dose epo, how to test your own hematocrit, what supplements to take while on epo, etc. etc. Hopefully these 2 people will just be the tip of the iceberg of everyone who has gotten epo from this site.

+1

I had no idea how easy it was to get your hands on some EPO! When is Amazon going to carry it so I can get free shipping? (joking!)

With this news and the post I saw yesterday on the BBC article on how easy it was to beat the passport, my confidence that even amateur sport is clean is going down the drain.

With AG so committed to the training and putting in the time, I can see why they would be tempted to try a little EPO to get a slot to Kona if they are close but need that something extra.

I don't see a solution to the PED problem. And a 2 yr ban isn't going to solve it, even more so when you can plead ignorance and get it reduced to a year. Heck, an injury can put you back a year. Those AG willing to play the favorable odds of not getting tested, I see why many sports have a problem.

My guess is #2. It seems like this is a federal investigation of illegal activity by this company, and they are trying to cooperate to reduce their punishment. Really no different than the Mitchell report's investigation of Balco, Kirk Radomski, etc for MLB. Those guys/companies did not have to disclose their client list once they were being investigated...but they did anyway.

The example of the opposite was Greg Anderson. The trainer for Barry Bonds who refused to testify before the federal grand jury and was thrown in prison for quite some time just for being in contempt of court.

But you can still order EPO right through the website. I would think the FEDS would have shut it down if they were involved.

It sends that message, but that's not a risk based testing approach.

Risk involves incentive. There just isn't as much incentive to cheat at the MOP level. I'm not saying there isn't any incentive, but there is less.

I would bet that most of the cheaters are cheating to get more than just bragging rights with the husband/wife. That means focusing on the FOP.

....and....I'm not saying entirely. I'm not saying to turn a blind eye to everyone that finishes after 3rd.

And they might be weighing their samples to be FOP-heavy, with some MOP/BOP testing, and they got a hit. I have no idea...I haven't looked at their testing methodologies.

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Chris Harris

Good point. I wonder what fool will order from it now.

Ok guys 90% of the pros are on the gear most likely, they have doctors that know what they're doing to keep positives from happening probably very very easy to do out of season and cycle off for testing