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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
BTW, I'm only seeing about a 5W difference between the Shivs and the Transition at zero yaw...assuming that a Transition is "tied" with a P3C (we've seen data on that before) and recalling that the difference between a P3 and a P4 is about twice that amount...hmmm....
I'm not sure if I remember but the Transition/Shiv graphs were probably from tests run at 30mph? The new graphs are at 40kph (25mph), so 30mph wattage differences would be something like 1.7 times as much as these new ones (from what my envelope says).
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [carlosferreiro] [ In reply to ]
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I am still trying to get my head around why an integrated system of hydration is desirable. Here's the thing, if you are racing long course and need to fill that internal bladder you will need to:
1. Slow down, grab bottle at aid station
2. Sit up and soft pedal as you try and pour contents into tiny hole on top tube
3. Do all of this before exiting the bottle drop area or be subject to a penalty, otherwise you are carrying that empty with you.

How is this a better option then one on the bars, one behind the seat, especially considering what Cervelo recently published?

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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom, y'er killin me.

The goal of the new Shiv was to provide the booming triathlon market with a product finally built with their goals in mind. The decision to go 100% UCI illegal was a long and hard fought battle by many of the triathletes internally here at specialized. To be able to develop a product like the Shiv we had make a decision where to allocate our engineering resources sadly that means we pushed away from making a mid-priced UCI legal TT option.


With that said, and Tom... I know you don't want this answer, but the new Shiv Alloy is a pretty rockin bike. The airfoils on the fork, DT, ST, and CSs are all designed to mimic the Shiv TT using a narrow leading edge and a blunt center section. As you've heard us say in the past that shape encourages airflow to stay attached to the shape longer lowering the drag and improving the bikes stability in crosswind. The frame was also developed in conjunction with the new Langster Pro, so the bikes ability to launch "start house sprints" is on par with any carbon TT bike on the market.



The Shiv Alloy also comes with the Alloy version of the new aerobar which give a ton of adjustment, the ability to run any standard stem the rider wants, and free choice of aero extension. Even though we have a large gap in the pricing structure, the new Shiv Alloy is certainly an up to date budget sleeper. We have a lot of TT enthusiasts in-house clamoring to get their hands on it!


Believe me Tom, I wish that gap was patched up too. But with the new Shiv and Shiv Alloy we should provide a much wider range of riders products that fit their experience than ever before!

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What bike does Specialized recommend for the person who, if they want to do TTs, either has to always (i.e. basically EVERYWHERE, but the US) or occasionally (for some events in the US as well...for now) abide by UCI equipment rules?
The S-Works Shiv TT at a list price of $6100 for the frame module is a bit steeply priced for some...and please don't say the aluminum Shiv model. That's "P2K era" technology ;-)




Chris R.
Specialized Bicycle Components
PR/Media Relations
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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What speed was being used to report drag differences between the P3 and P4? I thought that Cervelo used 50 kph. A 5W difference at 40 kph is much more significant than a 5W difference at 50 kph.
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [carlosferreiro] [ In reply to ]
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carlosferreiro wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
BTW, I'm only seeing about a 5W difference between the Shivs and the Transition at zero yaw...assuming that a Transition is "tied" with a P3C (we've seen data on that before) and recalling that the difference between a P3 and a P4 is about twice that amount...hmmm....

I'm not sure if I remember but the Transition/Shiv graphs were probably from tests run at 30mph? The new graphs are at 40kph (25mph), so 30mph wattage differences would be something like 1.7 times as much as these new ones (from what my envelope says).

Well...I just used the ROT that at race speeds 5W = ~50g of drag at 30mph tunnel speed...and I remembered that the difference at zero yaw for the P4 and P3 was ~100g at 30mph tunnel speed.

Again...this is why I think it's silly that ALL tunnel data isn't just reported in CdA. Then everyone wouldn't have to worry about all of this "what units and what speed" jive...



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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Its more universal. The Cervelo test was for a level bottle, with the arms next to the bottle and the riders hands clasped together in front of the bottle. Particularly the hands clasped in front of the bottle is a bit uncommon.

The other thing is that their is 0 penalty to not using the bladder. With the P4 if you can use or run the bottle their is a penalty.


Styrrell

Styrrell
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [CakeWalk] [ In reply to ]
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CakeWalk wrote:
Tom, y'er killin me.

Well...Mark Cote tells me that I "keep you guys on your toes" ;-)


CakeWalk wrote:
The goal of the new Shiv was to provide the booming triathlon market with a product finally built with their goals in mind. The decision to go 100% UCI illegal was a long and hard fought battle by many of the triathletes internally here at specialized. To be able to develop a product like the Shiv we had make a decision where to allocate our engineering resources sadly that means we pushed away from making a mid-priced UCI legal TT option.

I understand that this new bike wasn't intended to serve the mid-price UCI-legal TT market...I'm guess I'm basically just asking why there isn't a Shiv TT model below the S-Works? That "model" (same shapes, different carbon) is used across all of your other bikes, why not a "Shiv TT Pro"?



CakeWalk wrote:
With that said, and Tom... I know you don't want this answer, but the new Shiv Alloy is a pretty rockin bike. The airfoils on the fork, DT, ST, and CSs are all designed to mimic the Shiv TT using a narrow leading edge and a blunt center section. As you've heard us say in the past that shape encourages airflow to stay attached to the shape longer lowering the drag and improving the bikes stability in crosswind. The frame was also developed in conjunction with the new Langster Pro, so the bikes ability to launch "start house sprints" is on par with any carbon TT bike on the market.

Are we going to get to see some drag data on that bike?


CakeWalk wrote:
The Shiv Alloy also comes with the Alloy version of the new aerobar which give a ton of adjustment, the ability to run any standard stem the rider wants, and free choice of aero extension. Even though we have a large gap in the pricing structure, the new Shiv Alloy is certainly an up to date budget sleeper. We have a lot of TT enthusiasts in-house clamoring to get their hands on it!

I'm thinking the Shiv Alloy might find some use as a "crit bike" ;-) Which reminds me that I need to bug Mark Cote again about coming up with a "Venge Alloy"...





http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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I think it's meant for LC racing to start full, and then run only 1 bottle between the bar for hand ups.

Let's say it's 50oz (don't know how much it holds, haven't read the thread) that's 2something regular bottles. In a HIM you may not even need to run a bottle cage.

In an IM that eliminates at least 1 bottle hand up completely, maybe 2.

You don't have to worry about losing the bladder on a big bump (i've seen that happen a lot at Soma over the years + at other races) & you have a lot more of your drink of choice on board. = less worry about GI issues later.

Also since we are dealing with triathletes, having them reach behind causes many to swerve out into the lane further, so it could be safer.

All in all it reminds me of the internal bladder on the old bike that Harold Robinson used to ride. Damn it I can't remember the name of the bike.

Brian Stover
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Trimble.

Styrrell

Styrrell
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
I think it's meant for LC racing to start full, and then run only 1 bottle between the bar for hand ups.

Let's say it's 50oz (don't know how much it holds, haven't read the thread) that's 2something regular bottles. In a HIM you may not even need to run a bottle cage.

In an IM that eliminates at least 1 bottle hand up completely, maybe 2.

It's barely a single bottles worth of fluid in the bladder. I'm actually not even sure of the exact ounces but heard it being discussed in one of the videos released somewhere about the bike. Does anyone know exact fluid amount?

"One Line Robert"
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [wsrobert] [ In reply to ]
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The bladder is 23oz for the M, L, and XL bikes, 20oz for the XS and S bikes.

In the original design meetings for the bike we all expected to see a 72oz bladder with 2 chambers so you could run nutrition and water inside the bike... As the development continued we realized there just isn't that much room inside the bike. The bladder in the production bike is limited by the joint connecting the front triangle and the BB section (OPBBCS). If you run the bladder over the joint there is friction that can over time rupture the system.


As we tested the hydration system in house we realized that by using the bladder as our main water supply and refilling it with a bottle placed on the bar or behind the seat we were able drink more frequently and stay in the aerobar more of the time.


As for the "sloshing" inside of the frame... there isn't any (I thought there would be too! but there just isn't) There isn't any sloshing for 2 reasons. First if you have ridden with a waterbottle on the frame, you have experienced more than you will from the bladder. Due to the narrow profile of the bladder it limits the amount of movement the liquid in the bottle can have (think about sloshing a beer stein and a champaign flute, liquid in the flute doesn't travel as far up the sides of the glass as the stein.) Second, as the water is removed from the bladder all of the volume isn't replaced with air. The weight of the liquid inside holds the bladder open, without the water inside, it collapses on itsself reducing the movement of the fluid inside.


Thanks werobert!


wsrobert wrote:
Does anyone know exact fluid amount?




Chris R.
Specialized Bicycle Components
PR/Media Relations
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [CakeWalk] [ In reply to ]
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I am confused as hell on the sizing.

Currently, I ride a Large Transition with just a small spacer on the stem. The stack/reach is - 526/405.

Looking at the Shiv (stack/reach):

Medium - 540/405
Large -565/425

I thought the Transition was a narrow, tall frame. The Shiv looks even more so. So, if I were to go from the Transition to the Shiv, it seems like a drop from the Large (Transition) to the Medium (Shiv). Yes?

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Ahhh, what a good idea you have!


Currently we don't have many molds for the Shiv TT, think one set per size. Also, the cost of using the latex over EPS mandrel is substantial. For every frame we pop out of the mold, we destroy the mandrel used to create the complex shape of the bike. For a low volume bike like the Shiv TT its tough to make that type of investment sound appealing to the guys writing the checks.


The real solution will be putting some engineering muscle behind the project in the future and creating a bike as fast as the current Shiv TT with an easier to produce frame.


and I'm going to leave the nitty gritty aero details on all the bikes to the Aero Pharaoh himself. I know he is excited to talk about it when Kona is over. This entire project has been tough to keep quiet from the start!!!


Tom A. wrote:
CakeWalk wrote:
I understand that this new bike wasn't intended to serve the mid-price UCI-legal TT market...I'm guess I'm basically just asking why there isn't a Shiv TT model below the S-Works? That "model" (same shapes, different carbon) is used across all of your other bikes, why not a "Shiv TT Pro"?


Are we going to get to see some drag data on that bike?





Chris R.
Specialized Bicycle Components
PR/Media Relations
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [CakeWalk] [ In reply to ]
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CakeWalk wrote:
Hey UKathlete, We have been road testing the bike here in California for about 8 months and the bike handles extremely well for 3 reasons.

First even though the tubes are very deep, Mark and Luc's airfoils are very stable in HIGH crosswind. Even with 90mm deep wheels the bike seems to tac like a sail boat in the wind. It feels fast and predictable. Second, due to the large tubes... the bike is stiff. For years we have said that a bikes overall torsional stiffness is the best predictor of handling and the Shiv is extremely laterally stiff. Even at high lean angles and heavy cornering loads the bike tracks very well. Last, the Shiv TT is one of the best handling TT bikes on the planet thanks to the input from out pro teams. We took what we learned from the Shiv TT and translated that to a triathlon specific platform.


Even on tight and twisty roads, you are going to be able to stay in the aerobar longer and corner with more confidence. We are really proud of how the bike handles.


UKathlete wrote:
To be honest I'm more interested on how it handles than how it looks.....It's all very well designing super aero bikes for Kona,etc.... but most (European) Triathlon courses aren't straight or flat, they are hilly and technical.


What I want is a lightweight, aerodynamic TT bike that climbs, descents and corners like a high-end road bike.

Good to hear, I'm going to me in the market for a new bike to upgrade from my Transition, which has taken a bit of a beating over the last 3 years...! The shiv is definatley a top contender, but which one, I'm not sure about yet...! For me it's 95% about the handling..
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [CakeWalk] [ In reply to ]
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Chris, Slightly off topic question - I've got a Shiv TT being built right now, expect to pick it up today. When we opened the box at the shop we found that the frame was 100% matte black, no gloss accents except on the fork. The clear-coat is fine, just no glossy black on the frame at all. Is that how theyre shipping now or did I get a one-off? Personally i LOVE it and would have ordered it sooner if I new it was goinng to be all matte/nude carbon. Make the Shiv Tri in matte black and I'd reconsider my frame choice :)
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Styrrell,

Two small details:

1. The rider need not actually clasp hands; just holding the aerobar extensions is all we did. No special hand position, just a bottle between the arms. See figure 3 in the blog post: http://cervelo.com/...d-aerodynamics/2930/

2. There is no aero penalty for using a bottle on the P4. There is a penalty for mounting a bottle on any other frame. See the data here: http://www.slowtwitch.com/...the_Tunnel_1929.html

Cheers,

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [CAnderson_SBC] [ In reply to ]
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CAnderson_SBC wrote:
Hey Everyone,
My name is Clayton Anderson and I'm the Community and Social Media Specialist here at Specialized. As many of you have seen, We have introduced a new bike today at Kona, S-Works Shiv. I would like to extend my help with any questions that you may have. I will answer as many as I can and will be more than happy to get the information from our engineers and designers if needed.

What is the overall stack of the new S-Works Shiv with the included aero bars? All you show on the Specialized website is frame stack. For reach we can assume that it will be frame reach + 60 or 90 mm for the stem lengths, correct?
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [ In reply to ]
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There is one indisputable fact about the Shiv-Tri, well almost indisputable:

1. For some reason, not understood to me, triathletes love having an aerodrink with a straw up in the front of their bike. This is a fact

2. The shiv provides almost that same functionality is a way that is 99% less stupid - the straw is not sticking up all the time, it is more aero, weight is better located. If it doesn't spill when you lay the bike down, another bonus!

so I conclude this bike will be popular.

The only counterpoint is that the bladder does not hold the 10 gallons that many of the aerodrink products do, so many sprint triathletes will probably die of dehydration.

Another point - not every can use the between the arms bottle. Some peoples extensions are too short, or have weird bends that make it impossible or awkward. or their iphone is already there.



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Last edited by: jackmott: Oct 6, 11 5:32
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [CakeWalk] [ In reply to ]
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"The real solution will be putting some engineering muscle behind the project in the future and creating a bike as fast as the current Shiv TT with an easier to produce frame."

A golden nugget for those who rail against you guys for the costs of these super aero bikes we're demanding of you manufacturers. It's always give and take in product design and manufacturing. That "engineering muscle" isn't going to be cheap either.


And thanks to those within the Specialized fold who fought to bring this bike to fruition. I've been waiting...

***********************
Back in the saddle!
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
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Hello Damon,
I guess clasped isn't the correct descrtor, but in the pic aren't the riders hands touching? I've commonly seen hand/bottle/hand in pictures.

I didn't mean their is a penalty for running the P4 integrated bottle, but if you can't use it in a UCI race and need to leave it off and put another bottle in its place , in the same position, isn't there a slight penalty.

Don't get me wrong, I have a friend with a P4 and he raves about. It just that on the finer points of aero I think its important to get the tiny details correct.

Styrrell

Styrrell
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [CakeWalk] [ In reply to ]
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CakeWalk wrote:
Ahhh, what a good idea you have!


Which one? I have LOTS of ideas...


CakeWalk wrote:
Currently we don't have many molds for the Shiv TT, think one set per size. Also, the cost of using the latex over EPS mandrel is substantial. For every frame we pop out of the mold, we destroy the mandrel used to create the complex shape of the bike. For a low volume bike like the Shiv TT its tough to make that type of investment sound appealing to the guys writing the checks.



Sure...but is that a "which came first, the chicken or the egg" thing? Is the Shiv TT low volume because the only offering is high end?

You know, I don't recall seeing very many Transitions at the local and district TTs (or even local triathlons) until the mid and lower end models (i.e. the non-Sworks Transitions...the Pro, Expert, Comp, etc.) were widely available and people could see that they were getting the exact same aero performance as the S-Works Transition at a much more reasonable price. In fact, for a while, IMO the Transition Pro frameset was pretty much the best "bang for the buck" TT frame one could buy (probably tied with the P2C)...until the UCI decided that the fins had to be sawn off in order to use them in UCI regulated TTs :-/



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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What's your thoughts on the Alloy version coming out? My Cervelo Dual has seen better days recently...and heck, it seems like a killer deal.



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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [CakeWalk] [ In reply to ]
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Few questions:

1) Can you simply elect to not run the internal hydration setup? Is there a reliable, waterproof plug to cap the entry point? I personally prefer the simplicity of a torpedo bottle between my bars and, in the case of the Shiv, a seat tube bottle.

2) With the aerobar, I notice the straw is held on by a magnet to alloy extensions. How is the straw held in place if you use carbon extensions?

3) How might the sweat from the bladder impact Di2 wires running in the frame?

3) On the Specialized website, there OSBB frameset is shown, but there is no aerobar, extensions,. fairing, etc. Is this analogous to the Speed Concept 7 series where you'll simply run a normal stem and spacer?

Thanks,

Bob



"If you have a dream, pursue it as hard as you can. The world needs more of that." - Jordan Rapp
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [stratman05] [ In reply to ]
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stratman05 wrote:
What's your thoughts on the Alloy version coming out? My Cervelo Dual has seen better days recently...and heck, it seems like a killer deal.

Until we see data on it's performance...there's no way of knowing if it's an upgrade or not from your dual...



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Official Specialized Shiv Thread [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Another point - not every can use the between the arms bottle. Some peoples extensions are too short, or have weird bends that make it impossible or awkward. or their iphone is already there.

Mine hits the front tire!
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