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Re: New: Argon 18 E-119 Tri+ Disc - #WorstKeptSecret [scott8888] [ In reply to ]
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scott8888 wrote:
I can't get my head around the way they presented the data. This is not wind tunnel data so what they actually have is boat loads of files that contain values for speed and power at set time points. As they were using an notio connect they have also have a way to normalize all the data to set conditions creating an perfect power-speed relationship which is how they derive the CdA measurements. The logical way to present the data is therefore to provide plots of speed vs power which would appear like lines on an x-y graph where you look at the different systems by comparing lines. This would immediately allow you see the difference in watts between systems at a given speed or the difference in speed between systems for a given power. If you were desperate to show CdA you would superimpose idealized CDA lines on top of the comparison graph but that isn't very informative to 99.9999% of even the people who are looking at this sort of white paper. People want to know much faster will I be going hold 300 watts on this set-up vs this setup.

For argument sake lets say Argon think people are too stupid to interpret a watts vs speed diagram. They still could have summarized the data better. They could have provided a table of all systems at 300 watts, 250 watts, 200 watts and 150 watts (with no required other reference) and simple provided the idealized speeds and then what this equates to over 90km. The beauty of using the Notio systems is that you are MEASURING watts and speed and so this is the data you showing (the whole CdA things is a technically fancy to present the watts vs speed in a comparable manner). As soon as they started trying to compare CdAs and then back extrapolate to watts and speed they lost me because it is as though they failed to understand the differences between a wind tunnel and a real world aero sensor.

So the first they do give. 18s over 90km all other things being equal, assuming a 0 degree yaw for the full course and holding 300w. Or 2:20 if you use the mystery wheels and change the position*.

For the second part, they would have needed to do a lot more testing, as they only got their version of the Stig to ride the 2km efforts at 300w.

In fairness, their approach was to do the testing using CFD. And then they validated that approach using the notio on road and in a velodrome. And what they saw was the the CFD seemed to basically match what they saw with the notio, and that was that the frame aero is pretty much (note pretty much) irrelevant nowadays, it's about the rider position, wheels and ability to store your bacon butty, teddy bear mascot and Park Tools bike stand. Which then of course makes writing a pseudo technical paper as an advertising pamphlet a bit tricky. Which is why this wasn't the first of the releases - they prefaced this with the storage, range of adjustment and ease of adjustment.



*note that if however you move out of the refined position then the entire thing goes to shit, and you are slower than someone on an old bike, not mystery wheels and your old position.
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Re: New: Argon 18 E-119 Tri+ Disc - #WorstKeptSecret [Duncan74] [ In reply to ]
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Unrelated, but thoughts on the two colors? "Dig Me Beach Reflects" seems to be in all of the vids, with the "Kailua Full Moon" being the alternative. I was initially leaning towards the Kailua but the other one is growing on me. This decision is critical.
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Re: New: Argon 18 E-119 Tri+ Disc - #WorstKeptSecret [Crentist] [ In reply to ]
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Crentist wrote:
Unrelated, but thoughts on the two colors? "Dig Me Beach Reflects" seems to be in all of the vids, with the "Kailua Full Moon" being the alternative. I was initially leaning towards the Kailua but the other one is growing on me. This decision is critical.

The White paper was strangely silent on the issue of frame colour. Another key oversight in their testing methodology.

I get the sense both could look a lot different on the flesh compared to pictures, and I can't imagine seeing two side by side to compare, so if/when I pull the trigger it'll be whichever I can get in my size. Both are going to need some other kit tweaks for fashion reasons from my white/red accent e-114
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Re: New: Argon 18 E-119 Tri+ Disc - #WorstKeptSecret [Raw Vegan] [ In reply to ]
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Where did you see the weight? I don't even see a mention about it on the web site. I was looking at the Canyon CFR, but was a bit turned off by the weight as compared to the P5 disc.
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Re: New: Argon 18 E-119 Tri+ Disc - #WorstKeptSecret [Auburn365] [ In reply to ]
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Auburn365 wrote:
Where did you see the weight? I don't even see a mention about it on the web site. I was looking at the Canyon CFR, but was a bit turned off by the weight as compared to the P5 disc.


Saw this on Instagram


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Re: New: Argon 18 E-119 Tri+ Disc - #WorstKeptSecret [walfisch] [ In reply to ]
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walfisch wrote:
Auburn365 wrote:
Where did you see the weight? I don't even see a mention about it on the web site. I was looking at the Canyon CFR, but was a bit turned off by the weight as compared to the P5 disc.


Saw this on Instagram

Sweet! I saw Sam shared photos on hid Instagram account and it is gorgeous!

Kiwami Racing Team
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Re: New: Argon 18 E-119 Tri+ Disc - #WorstKeptSecret [walfisch] [ In reply to ]
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So about 2lbs heavier than a P5 Disc.
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Re: New: Argon 18 E-119 Tri+ Disc - #WorstKeptSecret [blackey] [ In reply to ]
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What size P5 disc though - that weight is for Sam Long's very large bicycle...

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: New: Argon 18 E-119 Tri+ Disc - #WorstKeptSecret [dfru] [ In reply to ]
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Good point that was a medium. 2lbs in the scheme of things isn't that bad either. Comes in about the same as a lot of other bikes, maybe a bit lighter than a PX, same as a Speed Concept, etc...

Not ground breaking, but not a P5X either.
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Re: New: Argon 18 E-119 Tri+ Disc - #WorstKeptSecret [Ohio_Roadie] [ In reply to ]
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Still vapourware, or is anyone seeing these in real life yet?
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Re: New: Argon 18 E-119 Tri+ Disc - #WorstKeptSecret [Duncan74] [ In reply to ]
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I've put down a deposit but nothing yet. Been told that Argon 18 has moved final assembly back to Canada but it still looks like May at the earliest before anything gets shipped. Also, a lot of the components are impossible to get as well.
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Re: New: Argon 18 E-119 Tri+ Disc - #WorstKeptSecret [Auburn365] [ In reply to ]
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My local dealer is telling me 2022 at the earliest =(
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Re: New: Argon 18 E-119 Tri+ Disc - #WorstKeptSecret [walfisch] [ In reply to ]
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We (MORF Tech here) developed a stem adapter to allow for the fitment of our TriFold bars.

Take a look:
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Re: New: Argon 18 E-119 Tri+ Disc - #WorstKeptSecret [Auburn365] [ In reply to ]
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Auburn365 wrote:
I've put down a deposit but nothing yet. Been told that Argon 18 has moved final assembly back to Canada but it still looks like May at the earliest before anything gets shipped. Also, a lot of the components are impossible to get as well.

What groupset did you order ?
Did you have a choice ?
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Re: New: Argon 18 E-119 Tri+ Disc - #WorstKeptSecret [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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The shop I'm working with had just the frameset on their delivery schedule (TBD) so they will be building with the SRAM Red AXS 12 speed groupset and the ENVE wheels to get to the factory spec bike.
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Re: New: Argon 18 E-119 Tri+ Disc - #WorstKeptSecret [Auburn365] [ In reply to ]
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Auburn365 wrote:
The shop I'm working with had just the frameset on their delivery schedule (TBD) so they will be building with the SRAM Red AXS 12 speed groupset and the ENVE wheels to get to the factory spec bike.

Nice

I would think these are the first bikes going out. If component delivery is an issue, you'd think they would prioritize framesets.
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Re: New: Argon 18 E-119 Tri+ Disc - #WorstKeptSecret [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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I called a major UK authorised Dealer (Sigma Sports) and was told Frameset only for now with expected Date November 2021 fyi.
Slightly north of £5000 RRP.
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Re: New: Argon 18 E-119 Tri+ Disc - #WorstKeptSecret [Ohio_Roadie] [ In reply to ]
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Sam Long (sponsored athlete) just released a short review of the E119 tri+ disc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKxxLMHrELQ


Any twitchers riding it? I have been on the verge of clicking on the "buy" button for a while..
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Re: New: Argon 18 E-119 Tri+ Disc - #WorstKeptSecret [ThibThib] [ In reply to ]
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I've been closely watching, but I'll say this video has managed to cool my interest.

First thing is petty, but the 'yoyoyo' patter just annoyed me. I'm old and grumpy so that's on me.

Now noting all the earlier conversation on the geometry that I was defending, that front end does look sky high whilst not obviously being set up with lots of spacers.

And at the start, the bar ends aren't level, and you can see them flexing as he's riding later in the video.

Not fully out off, but most definitely now wondering...
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Re: New: Argon 18 E-119 Tri+ Disc - #WorstKeptSecret [ThibThib] [ In reply to ]
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Can we get him some better tires??

blog
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Re: New: Argon 18 E-119 Tri+ Disc - #WorstKeptSecret [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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Bumping this to the top to see if anyone has actually ridden the bike yet?

I have a 2017 117e and love it but am thinking about upgrading/updating my bike. Any thoughts on whether it's worth the $8k+ investment? Also, what else should I be considering?

Thanks in advance!
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Re: New: Argon 18 E-119 Tri+ Disc - #WorstKeptSecret [kjwcanary] [ In reply to ]
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Hesitated a while ago between the E119tri+ disc and the Dimond Marquise.

For various reasons, I ended up getting the E119 and I really like it (coming off a P3).

Hit me up if you want to discuss it further.
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Re: New: Argon 18 E-119 Tri+ Disc - #WorstKeptSecret [kjwcanary] [ In reply to ]
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kjwcanary wrote:
Bumping this to the top to see if anyone has actually ridden the bike yet?

I have a 2017 117e and love it but am thinking about upgrading/updating my bike. Any thoughts on whether it's worth the $8k+ investment? Also, what else should I be considering?

Thanks in advance!


There is a FB group of Argon owners. Search "Argon 18 executive owners". A few have posted they have the 119disc. As a 117 owner they will let you in the club :-)

Worth the 8k ? That will depend on how you weigh the various criteria.

It will be very marginally faster than your current bike from an aero perspective.
I think the 117 struggles with some wider tires but most of the 25mm tires today still fit.
The 117 does not brake well (IMO) so this will be much better.

I am going to buy a new disc brake bike next season. I will go for the BMC TM01, the Argon 118 disc or maybe the P5 disc. All 3 are UCI legal and at least as fast as the 119. While most people don't care about UCI legal, I do TTs that sometimes say they require it.
Last edited by: marcag: Aug 23, 21 12:17
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Re: New: Argon 18 E-119 Tri+ Disc - #WorstKeptSecret [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag wrote:
kjwcanary wrote:
Bumping this to the top to see if anyone has actually ridden the bike yet?

I have a 2017 117e and love it but am thinking about upgrading/updating my bike. Any thoughts on whether it's worth the $8k+ investment? Also, what else should I be considering?

Thanks in advance!


There is a FB group of Argon owners. Search "Argon 18 executive owners". A few have posted they have the 119disc. As a 117 owner they will let you in the club :-)

Worth the 8k ? That will depend on how you weigh the various criteria.

It will be very marginally faster than your current bike from an aero perspective.
I think the 117 struggles with some wider tires but most of the 25mm tires today still fit.
The 117 does not brake well (IMO) so this will be much better.

I am going to buy a new disc brake bike next season. I will go for the BMC TM01, the Argon 118 disc or maybe the P5 disc. All 3 are UCI legal and at least as fast as the 119. While most people don't care about UCI legal, I do TTs that sometimes say they require it.

Really useful - thank you very much for sharing these thoughts!
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Re: New: Argon 18 E-119 Tri+ Disc - #WorstKeptSecret [kjwcanary] [ In reply to ]
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Hoping to get some fit guidance on the Argon 18 E-119 Tri+ Disc....

My recent bike fit measurements came back as 700 stack and 400 reach (to the arm pads). In looking at Argon, that puts me in a weird place relative to their sizes....Medium: stack (59.8-68.8), reach (43.4-52.1), and Large: stack (62.3-71.3), reach (44.4-53.1).

Should I size up or size down? Or avoid this bike altogether given the reach challenge?

Thanks for the help!
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