Well thought out and well spoken, but I believe that you and the other people who ponied up the cash to bring this to their attention will never receive one. The organization and the people behind it have now shown their true colors. They are arrogant and will continue to treat you and everyone who chooses to race their events as second class groupies who are willing to keep paying top dollar for the smoke and mirror show.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [TheRealStarky]
[ In reply to ]
Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [Sbernardi]
[ In reply to ]
Sbernardi wrote:
I agree with you. That's why I keep racing WTC events, but I am talking about "WTC" and their reputation. Would you hold them up there as "well respected company" by the above average user? If CEOIronman was a regular forum member and consistently contributed to the community, I would respect him. But as someone else said, this is a "michi weiss"
So, how many ST poster have a positive attitude towards WTC? Or USAT? Or ITU? Now since that is our entire sport, I guess if some got their way and stopped all three groups,
we would have no sport left. All of these groups are made up of folks just like you and I. Trying to do the best they can. But how many Triathletes are ever "happy"? :o)
Compared to dealing with family members who are dying, this stuff is supposed to be fun and helps us keep healthy. This sport was never meant for anyone to make a living, IMO.
We all know before we start something what it pays. If you do not like the pay, do something else rather than always blaming someone else.
.
Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net
Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist
Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [Supersquid]
[ In reply to ]
Yep. Didn't work for arena football either. When you have the premiere league in the sport, it works.
Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [h2ofun]
[ In reply to ]
[/quote]
Compared to dealing with family members who are dying, this stuff is supposed to be fun and helps us keep healthy. This sport was never meant for anyone to make a living, IMO.
We all know before we start something what it pays. If you do not like the pay, do something else rather than always blaming someone else.
.[/quote]
+1. If they don't like the pay, go do something else. WTC is not a charity. WTC races will continue to sell out and be successfull without the pros. No one cares about them. Go make a living doing something else if the prize purse is not good enough for you.
Compared to dealing with family members who are dying, this stuff is supposed to be fun and helps us keep healthy. This sport was never meant for anyone to make a living, IMO.
We all know before we start something what it pays. If you do not like the pay, do something else rather than always blaming someone else.
.[/quote]
+1. If they don't like the pay, go do something else. WTC is not a charity. WTC races will continue to sell out and be successfull without the pros. No one cares about them. Go make a living doing something else if the prize purse is not good enough for you.
Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [TheRealStarky]
[ In reply to ]
TheRealStarky wrote:
CEOIronman wrote:
You want it back? I thought that the idea was to give it away.You're too clever by a half.
Let me break character and explain a few things that you don't seem to be grasping. 300 of your customers contributed their hard earned money in a tremendous show of support for the struggling professional triathlete. Thousands more from all over the world used social media to voice their support. We admire, respect and appreciate the talent, hard work and dedication of these athletes and the value they add, in terms of excitement and atmosphere, to the events we choose.
Someone with the same respect for these athletes may have approached our little stunt like this: "We respect our athletes and value the input from our loyal customers. Ironman understands that there is room for improvement in developing our talented pros and we are working internally and with select members of the pro ranks toward a better way. Thank you to the donors for supporting these 7th place finishers. As an organization we recognize your support for the socioeconomic well-being of the athletes and we will consider your voice moving forward."
Instead, we got something similar to, "DON'T YOU HAVE A JOB?"
IM Canada was an outlier and it might be fair to say that Lake Placid was an outlier too. We chose that particular event to stage the stunt because Mark lives in NY. Debating one event versus the other is probably silly, so let's look at the bigger picture. According to Fortune, since the acquisition of Ironman, Providence has increased its revenue 7 fold to $150 million per year. Furthermore, according to Triathlon Business, you just borrowed $240 million in order to pay Providence a $220 million dividend. Now, it is probably close to impossible to quantify the value added by pro triathletes, but based on my personal observation of your advertising strategy, they seem very important to you. Your Kona broadcast is focused on marketing the pro athletes. More focus has been on them than the sob stories as of late.
- Have pro prize purses increased since the Providence acquisition? Has the increase been anywhere close to 7 fold?
- Regardless of the other events going on, is it morally reprehensible to pay a pro athlete roughly the equivalent of 1 (of >2500) entry fee for 6th place and NOTHING for 7th place?
You seem like an arrogant leader of an arrogant organization. The confiscation of Ray Bothelo's 7th place check by Jeff Edwards, your VP of Operations for North America, was an interesting metaphor for your approach to your customer. As a man was slumped over, having just given everything he had for over 9 hours, a volunteer (probably unpaid) helped him hold the check. They stumbled together with his support toward your executive Jeff, who snatched the check from the volunteer and bent it in half. Jeff then walked it over to a garbage can and disposed of it. One of your customers (me) who cares about the athletes (Ray Bothelo) spend $80 dollars on that check, $500 on a flight and >$500 more on prizes/merchandise and shipping for our 30 donors. That would have been an amazing keepsake for Ray to remember this weekend of legend. And Jeff, who seems to be an arrogant fucking asshole, modeled perfectly the attitude and value system of the WTC in that single act of customer disservice.
You owe Ray Bothelo and the 300 donors who care about people like Ray an apology.
______________________________________________
"Sweep the leg...Do you have a problem with that?" - John Kreese
Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [MarkyV]
[ In reply to ]
Nothing will happen to the races....the pro field doesn't matter.
The pros need to be made into bigger stars. Period. Bigger presence at fewer races. Bigger sponsorship dollars. People will do IM races not b/c of the pro field, but b/c they get to participate in the same sport as that rockstar.
Chris Harris
The pros need to be made into bigger stars. Period. Bigger presence at fewer races. Bigger sponsorship dollars. People will do IM races not b/c of the pro field, but b/c they get to participate in the same sport as that rockstar.
Chris Harris
Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [realAlbertan]
[ In reply to ]
realAlbertan wrote:
No they got each received a cheque.
This! win.
Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [jonnyo]
[ In reply to ]
Not to mention the biggest name in ITU just came out stating he will stay ITU until 2020 if the relay gets olympic status. The ITU along with the national federations are doing a better job at attracting and retaining talented triathletes. Living stipends, paying 25 deep at races, etc.
___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [GreatScott]
[ In reply to ]
GreatScott wrote:
Hello Andrew, Thank you for making yourself accessible on this forum. I'd like to take this opportunity to congratulate you and your staff on a fantastic venue and athlete experience at IMC. I hosted a party of 16 to watch my brother and I race. I have nothing but positive things to say about the community, the venue, the course and your employees.
I do have suggestions regarding the aid station layout.
1. Please consider adding another station between what is now station 8 and 9 on the bike. Most athletes progressed relatively slowly through that section because of the grade, at what was becoming the warmest part of the day. Athletes ran out of water during that section and I heard that BOP athletes found station 9 dry when they arrived. Water for that climb would be welcome.
2. Please consider adding a station between what is now station 2 and 3 on the run. This could be accomplished by combining stations 4/9, 5/8 or 6/7. We really didn't need separate stations for either direction of the trail just a short distance apart. But I know athletes would have benefited from water on the back side of Lost Lake.
Small stuff for a second year venue.
I will add that the pro purses seem ridiculously small. The sport would benefit from an economic model that incentivizes the best to compete.
Scott
Are you friggin kidding me? This isn't the time for constructive advice. Pitchforks out!
Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [realAlbertan]
[ In reply to ]
Who was that?
Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [CEOIronman]
[ In reply to ]
Wow what a terrible move. What did you think you'd gain by this? Safe to say TRS has gotten to you!
Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [dale3]
[ In reply to ]
Alistair Brownlee said that after the relay at Commonwealth Games...
___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [coach_finstock]
[ In reply to ]
Quote:
+1. If they don't like the pay, go do something else. WTC is not a charity. WTC races will continue to sell out and be successfull without the pros. No one cares about them. Go make a living doing something else if the prize purse is not good enough for you.
I can assure you that no one is making a living off of prize purses. That said, all competitive sports have prize money. That's how it is. The money in triathlon is comparatively small given the value of the sport, and that's what people are talking about here. If you think about it simply, it's kind of like gambling. Everyone buys in and the best takes something home. Except for some reason a very vocal minority on slowtwitch seem to be offended that a almost negligible portion of their entry fee might be going to the fastest athletes on the day.
If you'd prefer a participation event - and not a sport - I'd recommend pursuing mini golf, color runs, or laser tag.
___________________
Twitter | Kancman | Blog
Last edited by:
snackchair: Jul 31, 14 13:58
Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [realAlbertan]
[ In reply to ]
Wow, I hadn't heard that, but I don't blame him either.
If an athlete can compete and consistently do well at the ITU level, there isn't much incentive to transition to long course IMO.
If an athlete can compete and consistently do well at the ITU level, there isn't much incentive to transition to long course IMO.
Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [Supersquid]
[ In reply to ]
Supersquid wrote:
Quote:
Paying more will bring in more athletes which means a deeper field and more competitive races. This seems really basic. How is it that your executive team hasn't grasped such a simple concept?Didn't work for Rev3.
They don't have Kona. At some point the dam will break and I bet Rev3 brings back the prize money because the pros will be looking elsewhere as long as this continues.
Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [GreatScott]
[ In reply to ]
This is like having a conversation with Jamie Dimon of Chase and then using the opportunity to ask him to make sure that the pens in the teller line at your local branch are all fully equipped with ink.
Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [coach_finstock]
[ In reply to ]
coach_finstock wrote:
Andrew, You guys are doing a great job running WTC with all the races you've built over the past few years. Boggles my mind why pros think they are entitled to more prize money from WTC. If they want bigger payouts, go do other race series or get a job in the real world.
Nearly all age groupers don't care what pros show up - think it's been said many times here that most can't even name 10 pros.
Thanks for the great experiences. Now please go back to running your company.
I assume you are a coach with your username. Do you think if you were (or maybe you are) coaching pro athletes you would have a different stance on this? If you were making a % of their winnings I am sure you would have a different stance on this. Maybe you just coach for fun and you don't depend on that income, however if you did I bet you would be siding with your athletes and trying to figure out a resolution to increasing the prize money.
The races have been built over the years because of the dangling carrot out there, KONA. It is simple, WTC has KONA. With KONA they will continue to grow. Take Kona away and they will not grow at the current rate.
-Brad Williams
Website | Twitter: @BW_Tri |Instagram: @BW_Tri | Strava | Co-Founder & Coach at: KIS Coaching
Partnered with: Zoot Sports | Precision Fuel &Hydration | ISM
Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [Supersquid]
[ In reply to ]
Supersquid wrote:
Quote:
Paying more will bring in more athletes which means a deeper field and more competitive races. This seems really basic. How is it that your executive team hasn't grasped such a simple concept?Didn't work for Rev3.
REV3 did not have Kona, it is that simple.
-Brad Williams
Website | Twitter: @BW_Tri |Instagram: @BW_Tri | Strava | Co-Founder & Coach at: KIS Coaching
Partnered with: Zoot Sports | Precision Fuel &Hydration | ISM
Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [coach_finstock]
[ In reply to ]
coach_finstock wrote:
Compared to dealing with family members who are dying, this stuff is supposed to be fun and helps us keep healthy. This sport was never meant for anyone to make a living, IMO.
We all know before we start something what it pays. If you do not like the pay, do something else rather than always blaming someone else.
+1. If they don't like the pay, go do something else. WTC is not a charity. WTC races will continue to sell out and be successfull without the pros. No one cares about them. Go make a living doing something else if the prize purse is not good enough for you.
Some iron distances are still selling out fast, some arent. In fact Id venture the move to pull kona points from 70.3 was to encourage IM enrollment. Soon youll see prize purses drop significantly in 70.3 too.
Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [CEOIronman]
[ In reply to ]
I am generally a big fan of races produced by WTC. I think overall it is a great product, I will continue to participate in Ironman branded races and I think WTC takes a lot of crap on this forum that is undeserved. But WTC and Ironman are of course not without flaws. This post I think was in very poor taste. In one fell swoop you:
1. Denigrated the pros at IMC as perhaps not deserving of the money they won since every place got paid.
2. Implied that this justifies the pro purse prizes at races like IMLP and belittles the arguments made by many of your paying customers to the contrary
3. Assumes that the small field of pros has nothing to do with the way WTC organizes races but rather with the pros themselves
And then you go on to make a joke about one of your senior executives stealing and destroying private property, generally acting like a child in public and insulting the 300 of your customers who supported the effort with their own money.
This kind of attitude about your customers and blindness to your own operational shortcomings is likely to lead to a degradation in the quality of the product you provide. The most important characteristic of a line manager in an organization is to be able to look dispassionately at your performance and the performance of your product, understand and accept its failures or shortcomings and act responsibly to improve as best as possible. In this instance, you are not doing that. As a fan of Ironman races, this makes me worry a little for the future.
Also, I believe the practice of PE firms loading up their portfolio companies with debt to pay themselves dividends in excess of their entire investment that guarantee profits to their limited partners while putting the portfolio company itself (and its employees) at risk or at least hampering it's ability to compete is bad business. I know you don't get to make that decision, but I thought I would throw that out there.
-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
1. Denigrated the pros at IMC as perhaps not deserving of the money they won since every place got paid.
2. Implied that this justifies the pro purse prizes at races like IMLP and belittles the arguments made by many of your paying customers to the contrary
3. Assumes that the small field of pros has nothing to do with the way WTC organizes races but rather with the pros themselves
And then you go on to make a joke about one of your senior executives stealing and destroying private property, generally acting like a child in public and insulting the 300 of your customers who supported the effort with their own money.
This kind of attitude about your customers and blindness to your own operational shortcomings is likely to lead to a degradation in the quality of the product you provide. The most important characteristic of a line manager in an organization is to be able to look dispassionately at your performance and the performance of your product, understand and accept its failures or shortcomings and act responsibly to improve as best as possible. In this instance, you are not doing that. As a fan of Ironman races, this makes me worry a little for the future.
Also, I believe the practice of PE firms loading up their portfolio companies with debt to pay themselves dividends in excess of their entire investment that guarantee profits to their limited partners while putting the portfolio company itself (and its employees) at risk or at least hampering it's ability to compete is bad business. I know you don't get to make that decision, but I thought I would throw that out there.
-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [afbadbrad]
[ In reply to ]
afbadbrad wrote:
Supersquid wrote:
Quote:
Paying more will bring in more athletes which means a deeper field and more competitive races. This seems really basic. How is it that your executive team hasn't grasped such a simple concept?Didn't work for Rev3.
REV3 did not have Kona, it is that simple.
I think REV3 would have been fine had WTC not instituted the points race for Kona. In fact I would guess that pay in WTC races would be higher to compete. WTC has the crown jewel and knew that. It was a good business move, but one that has been detrimental to the sport.
Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [CEOIronman]
[ In reply to ]
Interesting. I assumed WTC's approach to the TRS stunt would be to ignore it and let it pass, which is why I thought the WTC employee confiscating and destroying the check a really bad move as it extended the news cycle. But, for you of all people to post this and extending it further, wow. Not what I would have expected at all.
I have lots of negative opinions on WTC, but failure to compensate pros adequately is not something I fault WTC for. If you are going to speak up on this matter, you should have a defense of WTC's purse policy, for which I suspect there is a reasonable defense. A few questions, that only WTC can answer.
PEP took over in 2005 or so. Since then there has been huge growth in participation and in number of events. But, not necessarily the same growth in the number of pros and quality of pros. So, comparing 2005 vs today for all below:
1. How many pros?
2. How many AG participants?
3. How many KQ events?
4. Total prize purse of KQ events (Kona excluded)
5. Percent total prize purse to percent of total registration revenue (Kona excluded)
6. Annualized average total prize $ per professional (ie, total prize money spent divided by total number of participating pros across all KQ events)
WTC has the data and I'm can easily come up with some metrics that defends the current practice. But, instead, the CEO comes on here and points to an outlier case of an event on the same day and same continent as IMLP that has 3x the purse. Just the randomness of two virtually identical races having such drastically different prize purse policies makes one wonder what is going on in the WTC corporate suites.
I have lots of negative opinions on WTC, but failure to compensate pros adequately is not something I fault WTC for. If you are going to speak up on this matter, you should have a defense of WTC's purse policy, for which I suspect there is a reasonable defense. A few questions, that only WTC can answer.
PEP took over in 2005 or so. Since then there has been huge growth in participation and in number of events. But, not necessarily the same growth in the number of pros and quality of pros. So, comparing 2005 vs today for all below:
1. How many pros?
2. How many AG participants?
3. How many KQ events?
4. Total prize purse of KQ events (Kona excluded)
5. Percent total prize purse to percent of total registration revenue (Kona excluded)
6. Annualized average total prize $ per professional (ie, total prize money spent divided by total number of participating pros across all KQ events)
WTC has the data and I'm can easily come up with some metrics that defends the current practice. But, instead, the CEO comes on here and points to an outlier case of an event on the same day and same continent as IMLP that has 3x the purse. Just the randomness of two virtually identical races having such drastically different prize purse policies makes one wonder what is going on in the WTC corporate suites.
Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [Ex-cyclist]
[ In reply to ]
Ex-cyclist wrote:
afbadbrad wrote:
Supersquid wrote:
Quote:
Paying more will bring in more athletes which means a deeper field and more competitive races. This seems really basic. How is it that your executive team hasn't grasped such a simple concept?Didn't work for Rev3.
REV3 did not have Kona, it is that simple.
I think REV3 would have been fine had WTC not instituted the points race for Kona. In fact I would guess that pay in WTC races would be higher to compete. WTC has the crown jewel and knew that. It was a good business move, but one that has been detrimental to the sport.
Yes, it has killed pro participation at SavageMan. We used to get a very good pro field to come. Now, you can't pay pros to come. Brilliant business move on WTC's part to leverage their crown jewel. Not good for the sport, but definitely a good move on their part.
Re: Meanwhile, in Canada..... [snackchair]
[ In reply to ]
I think miniature golf might have a similar payout to WTC triathlon, http://www.dpalumni.com/...ig-in-miniature-golf
Good news is that at least laser tag hasn't surpassed it.
Good news is that at least laser tag hasn't surpassed it.
Will be interesting to see what they roll out next. What I'm hearing is less races with a pro purse and points. So a lot of amateur only IM's. My guess is that this may make 2nd tier pros start looking for other options. They are out there, but a lot of pros seem to be ignoring them with the idea that they have some shot at Kona. The truth is maybe 20 of the 50 have a shot at top 10 and maybe 4-5 have a shot to win. Otherwise it is just a very expensive training vacation for the rest of them.
Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook