Well I figured since I was already standing in my "Ivory Tower", I might as well make use of the platform...

I’m with you Dev. Whatever we feel may be “slow” derives from our own experiences at various paces/training loads none of which can remotely relate to what he is putting his body through. I don’t care what his times are, and I don’t care what you want to label it (heck call it the 15-17 hour/day exercise challenge for all I care), the prospect of waking up day after day and doing what he is doing is positively mind-blowing.

Look, IC the social media personality may be super annoying, so I get that.....but I can’t wrap my head around those on here that can’t appreciate that every day when they wake up after their hard
interval session yesterday and need to take it easy today, he continues to wake up and keep his body moving for 16+ hours/day

I find his ability to recover for this each and every day impressive. The specific pieces that are impressive to me are the swimming and the subsequent ability to do 33 Forced Marches equaling a marathon distance insane. yeah, the braces make that easier, but it can't be reducing his expenditure that much. What, 20%? Multiplying that over time is a lot of savings. But that's still 16 hours of outdoor activity every day in a repetitive manner.

Obviously he's got IVs and all sorts of other stuff going on. I'm not going to accuse him of PED usage, BUT, that's probably where the continued recovery at this specific rate makes a lot of sense. He's three years older than the last attempt and he broke down at a much more rapid rate then.

Also, the peloton was like 30 deep today, not sure where he was in it, but he was slipstreaming for sure.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Day 31:
Swim time: 1:25:51
Bike time: 6:28:30
Run time: 6:59:17

Total time: 16:09:29

Day 32:
Swim time: 1:25:48
Bike time: 6:29:55
Run time: 7:07:52

Total time: 16:10:04

Day 33:
Swim time: 1:25:48
Bike time: 6:03:05
Run time: 6:55:34

Total time: 15:36:06

1/3 the way there. Hopefully the peloton can deliver him to some sub 6 rides soon. Someone get Lance, George, Levi, Kloden and Basso over. Blue Train are not banned from this by Travis Tygart LOL

You are stating subjective truth. Which would be whatever you decide is slow is slow based on whatever you want the qualifying factors to be.

Mugan is stating objective truth. Which would be facts that can be verified by actual accomplishments. There is "fast" based on actual accomplishments achieved in the pool in competitions like the Olympics and other events. This sets the bar. This objectively defines "fast". Then there is treading water, which would be not swimming. Everything in between can be objectively defined.

IC is objectively swimming slow. Most of us are swimming slow and it is not condescending to state the fact.

Obviously stating what this guy is doing is mind blowing is a subjective opinion. I wasn’t stating that as fact. I think it is fact that NO ONE on here (maybe 1 of you???) have done at any point in your life what he has done in the last 33 days. I welcome to hear from anyone who has for valued insight into what it may be like. Until then, I’ll consider that statement to be factual. I’m not going to further engage debate on what is and is not factual. I don’t even like this guy’s Internet personality but find myself somehow defending on here because people who exercise for 8-10 hours/week or so have opinions about what’s he’s doing, going through, should be doing etc. I’m hoping at some point, everyone just appreciates what this guy is doing, n if it is not 100 “IMs” in 100 days.

Using this logic, everthing other than the 100m sprint in track, 50m free in swimming, and kilo in cycling track are slow.

Fast is relative to the event at hand, not relative to the fastest possible in a sport.

As none of us have done 100 x 100 days of 140.6 wiht drafting and IV's, we don't really know how good or bad he is. The ultra guys who have done decas likely have the best window into whether what he is pulling off is fast or slow relative to what other humans have done.

But really, this is not a race, its a journey divided into 100 segments. The journey includes rest and refueling, not just the exercise, all in finite non moveable 24 hour segments.

Like DFW, I don't like aspects of his online misrepresentation, but that does not take away from the difficulty of what he is pulling off.

You said it yourself... Using logic. Swim speed is in fact, definable, and by definition, IC is swimming slow. Stating the fact is not condescending.

You are condescending as another guy sitting in their ivory towers, because we don't know what is objectively fast for the event that IC is doing. Using your logic Brownlee is slow for all legs of an Olympic tri and Frodo in his world record at Ironman is slow in all legs of the IM, because in both these cases they are slow relative to the fastest at the shortest distances in the individual sport.

Fast is relative to the length of the event. Since IC is the world champion of his event and until someone else does it, he's actually the fastest in the world at his event just like Frodo is fastest in the world at the event that started in Oahu in the 70's and moved to Kona in the early 80's. At one point, John Howard''s 4:30 bike split in Kona was fast. Now it is no where close to fastest at Kona. When someone else does IC 100/100 we will know what is fast at IC 100/100

Very good point... Which brings us full circle. IC claimed to be doing 100 Ironman's in 100 days. Which is objectively false. Ironman is defined as a race, with clearly defined rules. IC is participating in an event not a race and is not following the rules clearly defined by Ironman. This is what brings all the controversy.

I cover the Ironman distance essentially every week in training. I don't run around telling everyone I've done 52 Ironman's a year for the last 10 years. I could just say I've done 520 Ironman's. People would call me on it and they should.

John Howard''s 4:30 bike split in Kona was fast. Now it is no where close to fastest at Kona. When someone else does IC 100/100 we will know what is fast at IC 100/100 //

As the sites resident historian, and keeper of old truths, I have to give you a little spanking here Dev. John never did a 4;30 bike ride on the Kona course, not even close. He didn't even break 5 hours, it was about a 5;03 or so(have to look it up). What he did the year before on Ohau was a 4;28 as I recall. That was an around island course, in traffic, and having to obey traffic laws(or not). John like all the others also had his own personal support van to feed him, and looking at the time, to also break the wind for him too. Pretty safe to say that a 112 mile course where you were supposed to stop at lights and signs, ridden on a road bike before there were even race wheels, would not have been done in 4;28 in a non draft format...Later on he did break 5 hours, but just on the Kona course, and most of that time savings was due to the fact you didnt have to get off and weigh in anymore, and they finally measured the course correctly too(was 115 that first year)

That's all, you all may return to debating if 7+ walking marathons are slow or not... (-;

I think we can agree that what IC is doing is not Ironmans. You just have a thorn in your side that he's doing these and want to talk him down for his slowness or not. You're conflating two different topics (one is whether his times are slow or not). I am in support of you that he is not doing Ironman racing. It can be objectively true that his times are fast for what he is doing, while it can be objectively true that what he is doing are not Ironmans, its just covering the distance with his own rules.

Point of elucidation:

You stated:
"Swim speed is definable" (as well as measurable): True, and thus objective.

You also said
"and by definition, IC is swimming slow." Not objective, subjective.

Speed, in general, is definable and (ignoring issues of precision) measurable.

Is 200 mph slow or fast.
It's very slow for a particle moving in an accelerator.
It's ridiculously fast for a turtle or for me on a bike, even if I'm falling from a 30th-story window. (I was not harmed when writing this post.)

Slow, (and fast), fall in the same category as "rich", "expensive", "tall", "luxurious", etc. They are subjective.
A member of the general population of an impoverished 3rd world country would consider most of our possessions to be "luxurious", where we might consider them not to be. (And don't get me started on bike costs. ;-)

Scientific papers would scoff at using a word like "slow" or "fast" exactly because they are NOT objective.

I just had my kids read "The Phantom Tollbooth" (one of my favorite books) which makes a comment on this topic.

I hope this helps clarify this area.

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Tri or tri not; this is no du. (--- with apologies to Yoda.) Slow triathlete who survived Huntsville, Lelystadt, Colmar, Fontanil, and
Szekesfehervar/Lake Velence. Arbor hydration specialist in a kid's park in Monterrey 4 times in the 1990s (and in the pits in 1994).

Since no other ultra guys have taken up your offer to comment I will do so. (Disclaimer: I have never done 33 Ironmans in 33 days, but am a veteran, having (very slowly) completed 2 continuous decas, been knocked out of 2 others on the run due to what I was informed were ulcers in my foot, and completed the (continuous) 15; I have not completed one of the Ironman/day races, having only done 6 of the 10 days in the one I entered; when I got home I got surgery for a torn meniscus.)

The difficulties of the long races come in two forms: Mental and physical.

Mental: (Like "going mental" ;-) For me, most of the time this was the harder element. I was frequently coming from a very difficult "place" and couldn't turn the thought processes off during the races. Consider it the longest therapy session you could imagine. Very difficult, very cathartic. Very few going the same pace, so frequently alone. (You might see them, but you weren't close enough to talk to them.) For those of you who consider doing a short loop unimaginably boring, consider my experience the second year of the quad. The run loop those first 2 years was the same as for the bike: 20 miles. The second year I pulled out after about 60 miles from Achilles problems and probably mental fatigue. In the entire 60 miles I never saw another competitor except at the start/finish of the loop. I was prohibited from having anyone who was not a competitor even next to me on the run. When my judge (there was one for each competitor) felt sorry for me, she came out of the car and started walking with me. (She was quite pretty, which helped me stay on task.) When the main judge came by he scolded her for walking next to me and made her get back in the car, so the rest of the race I only had the road to look at and no one to talk to.
So for this aspect, I'd say that IC has it real easy.

Physical: (1) In the continuous races there is the issue of the sleep needed to avoid falling asleep while competing (as opposed to needing it just for physical recovery). This he doesn't have to deal with. (At least so far.)
(2) Muscular: Swim got very difficult/painful after a certain point for the continuous races. Swim got a bit slower but not painful for the Iron/day scenario.
For me, the biking wasn't (usually) about problems about the legs (although I had no "spark" in my legs for races in a weekend following a double or longer.) It was more about the neck/lower back as well as the REALLY lower back, aka the derriere. Chafing was also a problem. (A (male) friend of mine in a continuous deca had to start the run in a skirt due to chafing.)
In addition, weather conditions can cause major discomfort in a longer effort, with hard rain and cold being the main problems. This IC has no way around. In addition it sounds as though he chose a more "rolling" (I hate that word) terrain at the beginning, and that would take more out of him, and the cold combined with uphills would be more likely to cause muscle injury. (hamstrings)
A lot of the run issues have to do with the knee and below, although in the long races one could tell which competitor was coming from far away by their gait, which probably has a lot to do with the stability of the hip. Another issue I had in the continuous deca was that I became too tired to hold my arms up. (This caused the arms, which for these purposes could be could considered pendulums, to be "longer" and thus their natural period was slowed. This made it harder to keep a "quick" "running" cadence.) The difficulties of doing the long races without being light (especially going slowly which means there's more time putting pressure on the feet) cannot be overstated. Chafing for this stage, usually as evidenced by blisters, was also very problematic. It is very easy to get injured when one changes ones gait to avoid rolling on a blister. Going slower usually helps prevent blisters to a certain extent, but leads to more issues with the muscles/fascia in the bottom of the foot.
In general, taking breaks reduces the stress and allows one to catch problems early on.

These are my recollections from my "adventures" from many years ago.

Summary: IC shouldn't have much trouble with the mental or swim sections of his challenge. Taking his time on the bike and getting drafting help will help keep the legs fresher, but he needs to make sure to take care of his neck, back, and butt and nip any problem in the bud before it gets bad. The run is where it is most difficult to avoid problems, especially if he came in at a higher weight. Presumably he will be losing weight during this adventure, so if he can control the problems now they may start to abate as his weight comes down. Many props for what he is accomplishing.

Other thoughts: I am a bit bothered by the daily IV. Getting back fluids and pushing them through the system is one of the difficult things when doing recovery. I vaguely remember one case of an athlete getting an IV during a race. It was multi-day, neither the first nor the last day, the temperature was about 100 F, and he had just neglected to drink. (Probably before WADA.) It was given by the race doctor, so I know there were no "special ingredients", and the athlete was in trouble. Nobody was bothered, and I don't know if the amount he got averaged out over the number of days of the event would have been over the limit. So I wouldn't be bothered with an occasional IV after 100 degrees+ if he made a mistake, but not just to make rehydrating more efficient.

Also, I'm not wild about the IUTA rule that each day (of 1/day) must start at the same time at the pool. While I understand why it is necessary from a safety perspective when having multiple racers, this shouldn't apply to this challenge. My wife was signed up for a 5x1 race and was comfortable through the first two days, but had an anxiety attack (thyroid related) on the third day starting about a half hour before it was time to go to the pool. When I had finally calmed her down it was too late to start. (She ended up doing 3 in 4 days, deciding the last day to take the day off.)

On a separate note, what he's doing (without the pressure) sounds really FUN! I think several have mentioned that if they could they would go ride/swim/run with IC. I think hanging out with similar "crazies" and training would be awesome. (The original deca was a bit like that; they had a budget of $100,000 for 20 athletes; they set up free food, with a pizza joint and another restaurant open 20 hrs/day, omelettes made to order, and all the families got to know one another; the athletes frequently took some time to eat together and obviously to race with/against each other. Unbelievably supportive.) Sort of a triathlon festival. Does that happen anywhere? And is it reasonably-priced? (I've been out of the loop for over a decade.) Or does the idea need to be invented/implemented? (Maybe I should have started another thread.) In any event, I'd love to hear discussion on this idea. (I must add that I'm currently a VERY slow, overweight 64-year-old, who could use the encouragement this would bring. I would obviously like to be able to participate. A bike/run loop might be in order to allow people of different levels to be together.)

I apologize for the length of this post, but hope this gives a more-educated glimpse of what ICs trying to accomplish, and hopefully I can stir the pot to get someone to start a "triathlon festival".

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Tri or tri not; this is no du. (--- with apologies to Yoda.) Slow triathlete who survived Huntsville, Lelystadt, Colmar, Fontanil, and
Szekesfehervar/Lake Velence. Arbor hydration specialist in a kid's park in Monterrey 4 times in the 1990s (and in the pits in 1994).

I think we agree. I only had an issue with saying someone is sitting in an "ivory tower" because they said IC is swimming slow

Of course you have to define what the mode of travel is. We were talking about swimming.

I may be wrong but I believe you could make a chart containing Ironman swim splits and characterize Luke Bell's 39:08 swim split as fast and ending with a random age grouper's 2:19:59 characterized as slow and not get too much grief from the scientific community.

And you can tell me that a time that is 3 minutes faster than the average of what you consider to be the fast and slow times is definitely slow???
(39:08+2:19:59)/2=1:29:34 (rounded to the nearest second).

I'd want to see (of course) your exact (defensible) cutoffs for fast vs. slow, and an ironclad (no pun intended) "proof" why everybody needs to see it that way. (This is the definition of objective.) Perhaps there's even speed description that's something in between the two? I'm sure everyone on this forum will be thrilled to be informed how the gods from on high have decided for them what's fast and what's slow.

Anyway, I (and everybody else reading this thread) have more important things to do than to read about the difference between objective and subjective, so I'm out in relation to this discussion. You may continue if you wish. All the best.

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Tri or tri not; this is no du. (--- with apologies to Yoda.) Slow triathlete who survived Huntsville, Lelystadt, Colmar, Fontanil, and
Szekesfehervar/Lake Velence. Arbor hydration specialist in a kid's park in Monterrey 4 times in the 1990s (and in the pits in 1994).

My citing of Ironman swim splits was only speaking as to whether slow and fast would be accepted by the scientific community.

As to IC's swim splits being compared to an Ironman swim split. I would think that would be obvious but one is open water with water resistance (chop, current, other swimmers etc...) and sighting. IC is swimming in a pool with pristine conditions and breaks from turns and pushing off walls.

This is a rabbit hole

Dev - This is exercising for 16 hour days for 100 days. Impressive what the human body is capable of but I am shocked anyone thought before this that this was not possible. Once the body is acclimatized and adapted (calluses, strong joints etc), the body will keep going. It is a well known fact that humans have more running endurance capability than all other mammals - the human body just keeps going.

Iron Cowboy, despite what some people and perhaps himself like to think, is not an elite athlete - and certainly not the fittest person in the world like the propaganda from Outside magazine likes to try sell. In my mind he is just a guy that does not want to work and finds a way to have others pay for him to not work. My issue with him is the same as the idiot Taren. They pose themselves as experts and preach "science" via Youtube rather than leave it with people far wiser and experienced than them. Then again, this is a problem with social media today. If he would just say it for what it is, I would respect him for it. It is a cash grab.

If he was smart about this, he would not swim in a pool and not have someone for him to draft the whole way. I know that is contentious because you are allowed to do it in Ironman. Certainly him drafting behind a cyclist the whole way, every day, is BS. We all know that with a good draft, you barely have to pedal.

Fine...he creates his own rules...but it does not mean it needs to impress me.

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________________
Adrian in Vancouver

Oh we are in full agreement these are not ironmans and full agreement that he stretches his resume and full agreement that he is a non elite athlete.

All those are separate from him keeping up the pace and able to repeat his 16 hrs days daily. Almost no one commenting on this thread would have been able to keep that up. Most of you (and I) could mententally handle it. I have done a month of 6-12 hrs day on the bike. Easily sustainable but that leaves 3/4 a day to recover. Three days of 12 hrs days and I need a 4 hrs day for more recovery time.

You guys don't need to be impressed but most of you guys are speaking from a peanut gallery not really knowing how hard this is.

All the misrepresentation stuff we are aligned on.

Delivered him to a 5:30 today :)

I think what you are forgetting, in trying to characterize his times, is comparing them in relation to Ironman swim times versus comparing them to multi day stage race times. I can almost assure you that if you asked all the Kona finishers to get up the next morning and do the swim again, they would be more than 8 minutes off their previous race day time (I posted his 1:17 Ironman Canada single day time in this thread versus his 1:25's he is pulling off daily). He also did just a bit over 4 hrs in that Ironman marathon. Relative to that he is a lot slower on his multi day event, but that's to be expected.

Point being, don't compare any of his times to even his own single day IM times. Just compare his times to multi day event times. Using that comparison, he's slower than what he was doing than his 50/50/50 and he had intra state travel for that too. That's just outrageous what he pulled off there (granted elliptical gate and all for which many of us were quite vocal).

[quote devashish_paul
I think what you are forgetting, in trying to characterize his times, is comparing them in relation to Ironman swim times versus comparing them to multi day stage race times. I can almost assure you that if you asked all the Kona finishers to get up the next morning and do the swim again, they would be more than 8 minutes off their previous race day time (I posted his 1:17 Ironman Canada single day time in this thread versus his 1:25's he is pulling off daily). He also did just a bit over 4 hrs in that Ironman marathon. Relative to that he is a lot slower on his multi day event, but that's to be expected.

Point being, don't compare any of his times to even his own single day IM times. Just compare his times to multi day event times. Using that comparison, he's slower than what he was doing than his 50/50/50 and he had intra state travel for that too. That's just outrageous what he pulled off there (granted elliptical gate and all for which many of us were quite vocal).[/quote]
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It is totally useless for anyone to try and compare what James is doing to anything anyone here has done except those who have done a one a day Deca or longer.It is just so far out there that maybe it ranks with Pat Farmers Pole to Pole run...James is doing the times he is doing because he wants to do those times and is planning the swim and bike accordingly. The fact that he is going "slowly" only means that the poor bastard is out there in the elements for 16hrs+ and just being out there doing anything would trash the shit out of anyone..I has a "discussion" with some slower folks a few years ago and I said that one of the reasons going around 10hrs was so much easier is that I wasn't physically out in the elements for another 6-8hrs like the guys I was talking to.
I think you and TheStroBro are on the right track recognizing the sheer enormity of the physical challenge.Times have meant bugger all since the IronCowboyMan rules were established.
POLE TO POLE | patfarmer

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Gotta say, IC being the "world champion" in his event is like the Superbowl champs being "world champions". I'm the male world champion of sleeping in my bed. Nobody does it better than me. I'm also the worst at sleeping in my own bed, but at least I'm not scamming people into paying me while I do it.