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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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AlwaysCurious wrote:
BDoughtie wrote:
In the same light, we should actually call every triathlon "draft legal" because even at the legal "non draft" distance, your "drafting" right?

Kinda similar idea would be my bet. There is some sorta "agreement" among a group and her swim wasnt following that agreement, thus wanting the clarification is my guess.


That's a good analogy, but I'd argue that if a cyclist really wants to see how fast he can ride 40k, he enters a time trial because there's little chance of drafting.

There's no similar category in OWS. The EC folks consider their swims the equivalent of a time trial, when in fact they're the equivalent of IMAZ.

Can you draft in Grand Tour TTs? I'm thinking of the times when the best TTers will sometimes pass the person who started before them.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
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miklcct wrote:
ThailandUltras wrote:
miklcct,I have a soft spot for you because you are an enthusiastic young guy full of dreams and you are from Hong Kong,which is where I was born and learned to swim BUT seriously,the biggest thing that is holding you back is not realising how little you understand about long triathlons and long distance open water swimming.

Read what SnappingT has written and take his advice.....oh and watch this video of Aussie Ultra legend John van Wisse and his Enduroman Arc to Arch event. He is an old school hard man if ever there was one.(Weighed about 92kg when he did this event)

https://vimeo.com/113491266


I have two dream swims - one is round Hong Kong, one is the English Channel. In the perfect situation I should do the round HK swim February / March in the same year before I do the Channel as a "test run in my comfort zone". However due to cost reason (it is too expensive - 2 times the cost of doing the Channel) I have decided to skip the HK swim unless Hong Kong is liberated.

And I still don't understand what's wrong with my "triathlete mentality" as from the very beginning I train in the a triathlon club and train both swim and run. Also the two Channel swimmers I know currently living in the city also train in the triathlon club I trained with as well.

devashish_paul wrote:

This is a general question for this thread and maybe it was discussed 7 years ago, but now that swimming wetsuits exist, why don't they just open up a wetsuit category. It won't cheapen the old school category, but would open up the "event" to a lot more smaller and lean athletes who otherwise are on the limit. If you get to 5'9" and 137, I bet you DNF just because you can't possibly generate and keep enough heat around your organs.

I did a 12km Lake crossing swim last summer and it was borderline Ironman wetsuit legal temp. One of the women from my club who beats me by 1.5 min during the 1500 free in masters swimming went with no wetuit. She should have beaten me by around 10 minutes if both of us had no wetsuit. I chose to wear one for warmth because my intensity was going to be way lower on a 12km swim than a 1500m and I would just lose heat to the lake going at tourist marathon pace. I ended up beating her by over 35 minutes. I should have just beaten her by around 10 min (if you take wetsuit into account for 10% speed). But she got hypothermic half way through. She was borderline medical but as soon as she got on land with air temp at 30C and warm food she stabilized. She was barely 5'2" 120 lbs. I am 5'6", 140 lbs. I made the right call, because I have a lot less body fat.

I think Global Swim Series has it "right" with wetsuit and no wetsuit options.

Dev

Gibraltar has traditional and neoprene categories. There is one Hongkonger done the neoprene category but none in the traditional category yet. It is one of the channel in my secondary bucket list (my primary bucket contains the English Channel and round Hong Kong), however I am not fast enough to qualify for it (it requires 3 km/h for 4 hours for a single crossing).

I also did a lake crossing of similar distance last year and the water temperature was 20 - 22°C. I went for the skin category and it became my first marathon swim. I really enjoyed it and continued to do marathon swimming afterwards. However, now in summer I basically have stopped most of my training because I just can't tolerate the heat to do any structured programme so I have decided not training in the squad anymore, and wait until November to return when the temperature goes under 24°C. If I get to 5'9" and 137 I will train at a higher intensity than last year as well. I want to get myself to the slimiest I can get in order to get the speed up such that I can complete the crossing as fast as possible. I will get my feeling in the coming winter to decide.

Also can anyone suggest how I can lose weight, considering I can't train anything high intensity because it is too hot in the summer? My weight hasn't gone down in the preceding few months. 137 was my weight when I graduated from uni but after a year of unhealthy lifestyle afterwards it went up to 156, with significant deterioration in my aquathon performance as well, and I could never get rid of all those extra weight since then despite adding heavy swim training (averaging about 15 km / week over a whole year) afterwards.

Like anything that involves endurance, for the same heart and lungs and cardio system, feeding less mass with the same oxygen is better....but in swimming you have this buoyancy trade off, where more fat floats you better, meaning you have less drag in the water. So YES you have to feed more mass with the same fixed cardio systems, but because you're floating better you have less drag if you are fatter. And that's just in pool temperatures. Now if you drop the water temp a lot, you have the entire heat loss thing that comes into play. I don't think getting to 137 lbs at 5'9" will help you for the channel swim, but it will help you if you run an open marathon where weight means you have to do more work at the same pace with the same cardio system AND you have a big cooling penalty for running. Its why Eliud Kipchoge is 5'8" and 115 lbs . He would need to gain 50 lbs of fat to get into the right body composition if you knew how to swim to do a channel crossing.

I THINK think Jan Frodeno would not be able to finish a channel crossing swim even though he is an excellent swimmer. I THINK he would just DNF from hypothermia. Having said that if he set out at channel crossing world record pace which is around 5 kph, he just MIGHT generate enough heat to stay warm enough for 7 hrs. That's why I THINK he would DNF. My guess is his body composition relative to his pace is right on the border line. Only way Jan finishes it is he keeps the pace super high and generates enough heat to net get hypothermic...he's otherwise too lean.

Otherwise its a simple thermodynamic equation. You lose X joules of heat from your body per second, so you need to generate almost 100% of X joules internally in heat (80% of your energy goes into generating heat, 20% into mechanical work....X = your heat generation). The slower you swim, the more mass you need to survive. The faster you swim, you can have less BMI of which less can be pure fat.

This is why neoprene allows low body mass athletes with low % fat to still do cold water racing. Its really just physics. I don't think its wise to be super lean and go into long distance cold racing. Too much risk. There is not that much you can do to defeat physics and thermodynamics other than work with those aspects of science. We can't will ourselve against science hoping our bodies can adapt. They can, but only a bit.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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There's a limited number of boats with an experienced captain & the required observers etc. Also, weather & water conditions aren't guaranteed, so attempts are regularly postponed. With the Channel being so busy with commercial traffic, trying to add in wetsuit swimmers wouldn't go down well, even before C19 struck.

Also it must be noted that jelly fish & the tide flows can easily scupper the crossing attempts of even the best prepared.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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There’s a number of reasons. The first being it’s tradition. Second is the Channel Crossing committee and the open water swim community aren’t interested in making it easier. Everyone can train up to do a cold water swim and that’s part of what it takes to swim across the English Channel. They aren’t trying to sell more entries and widen the potential demographic and maybe not everyone can rise to this challenge and that’s ok too. It makes it that much sweeter and worthwhile for those that do. If you train right for cold water swimming, your body will adapt and it will stimulate the recruitment of “brown fat” around those organs. And that’s why there aren’t any wetsuits for the English Channel and never will be or for any legs of the Triple Crown. The community wants it to remain an accomplishment.

Tim

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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I did not realize that the supply or entries to channel crossing is limited, so they don't want to open it up to everyone who puts on neoprene and gives it a go (and dumbs it down) even though it might open it up to different body types. For comparison the Berlin marathon is open to all body types, but only guys with BMI like Kipchoge have a chance to compete for the win. But the channel is not like the roads around Berlin so I see why its more limited access. Originally I thought anyone can just show up, swim across and record that they did it with some witnesses mechanism and criteria.

Now I see there is more of an organization structure around it:

https://www.channelswimmingassociation.com/faq

First, you must register your swim with the CSA and book one of our recognized Escort Pilots. Make sure that your swim costume is compliant with CSA rules. Make sure that you are at least 16 years old at the commencement of the solo swim. As soon as the CSA is informed by your pilot of your swim time, we will appoint an Observer to watch over your swim.
After your Swim, the CSA Official Observer will send his report to the CSA Observer Liaison Officer. He will present the report together with the swim co-ordinates, plotting the progression of the Swim - for an independent scrutiny by members of the Committee at a Ratification Meeting. Your Swim will then be ratified and entered into the Official Record Books. In due course it will be added to the next reprint of the Handbook.

It seems like the ultimate distanced event. Perfect for Covid19. Would be interesting to see what some pro swimmers like Mellouli could do.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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Yes. It has been attempted.

https://www.nwitimes.com/...94-a81b4a7cefbb.html

"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5
Last edited by: boobooaboo: Jul 5, 20 12:59
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [burnman] [ In reply to ]
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burnman wrote:
texafornia wrote:
No boat, no goggles, no suit, no navigation, carry your own food. Cross a body of water like that. That'd be rad.


Outside food would be assistance. Instead, you must catch and kill your own food en route.

this sounds like a "climbing is aid" forum argument

"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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All the legs of the Triple Crown (all have limited spots to complete for a variety of reasons) and any of the big, solo ultra-marathon swims follow a similar mechanism for the swim to be recognized by the open water community. It's tradition from Captain Webbs first attempt and then rules that have been agreed upon over the years.

But anyone could work to become acclimated for a cold water swim and the English Channel is usually low 60s to upper 50s. Some might have to work harder, but any one can do the work to adapt.

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [boobooaboo] [ In reply to ]
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Yes. It has been attempted.

https://www.nwitimes.com/...94-a81b4a7cefbb.html //


18 miles in 15 hours in a lake, that has to be one hell of a wind current, or one slow dude. One would think if someone was ready to do 120 miles, they would be in the 2+ mph range at the very least. But I don't really know that lake and conditions, but seems like you wouldnt start the swim unless it was pretty good to begin with..
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT wrote:
All the legs of the Triple Crown (all have limited spots to complete for a variety of reasons) and any of the big, solo ultra-marathon swims follow a similar mechanism for the swim to be recognized by the open water community. It's tradition from Captain Webbs first attempt and then rules that have been agreed upon over the years.


But anyone could work to become acclimated for a cold water swim and the English Channel is usually low 60s to upper 50s. Some might have to work harder, but any one can do the work to adapt.


If you have time you can watch the following documentary, which describe an ordinary woman from Iceland, Sigrún Þuriður Geirsdóttir, swimming the English Channel in 2015:




She was never talented in any sports, and she always comes last in races. She only learnt swimming 3 years before. Yet she determined to cross the channel in about 22 and a half hours in her first attempt, becoming the 2nd person from Iceland to conquer it.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
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Now the channel swimming season has started. I feel pressure watching the tracks thinking that I will be in the water next year.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [jgp] [ In reply to ]
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jgp wrote:
and why no one does the latter."


Otto Kemmerich did the latter.
Last edited by: miklcct: Aug 31, 20 23:23
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
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There was an unassisted Channel swim (as suggested by some of the original posts in this thread back in 2013) attempt reported in the UK news this weekend, after 12 hours he was fished out by the RNLI - only 500m off the Dover coast where he started 8 hours previously.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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"And then Reinhold Messner climbed it solo and without oxygen, shattering the traditional norms in mountaineering."

Actually when he first climbed it without oxygen he did so with Peter Habeler, he soloed it without oxygen 2 years later.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [The_Exile] [ In reply to ]
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The_Exile wrote:
There was an unassisted Channel swim (as suggested by some of the original posts in this thread back in 2013) attempt reported in the UK news this weekend, after 12 hours he was fished out by the RNLI - only 500m off the Dover coast where he started 8 hours previously.

You beat me to that!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/...ngland-kent-53980060
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [BobAjobb] [ In reply to ]
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I may have beaten you to it - but in my rush I said he was in the water for both 12 hours instead of 8!
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [rosshm] [ In reply to ]
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rosshm wrote:
AlwaysCurious wrote:
BDoughtie wrote:
In the same light, we should actually call every triathlon "draft legal" because even at the legal "non draft" distance, your "drafting" right?

Kinda similar idea would be my bet. There is some sorta "agreement" among a group and her swim wasnt following that agreement, thus wanting the clarification is my guess.


That's a good analogy, but I'd argue that if a cyclist really wants to see how fast he can ride 40k, he enters a time trial because there's little chance of drafting.

There's no similar category in OWS. The EC folks consider their swims the equivalent of a time trial, when in fact they're the equivalent of IMAZ.


Can you draft in Grand Tour TTs? I'm thinking of the times when the best TTers will sometimes pass the person who started before them.

No, you can be penalized for drafting during a any UCI TT
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