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Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"?
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English Channel swimmers consider their swims “unassisted and pure.” But they're not only wrong, they're hypocrites about it.


They make a really huge deal out wearing only a swimsuit, cap, and goggles (well, plus earplugs and nose plugs, as well as grease to protect against chafing, if you ask a little more). They mock triathletes for wearing wetsuits, and DQ a channel crosser for getting a hug before they reach dry land.


They also want Diana Nyad to call her swim “assisted” because she wore a thin suit/mask to protect against jellyfish, and because assistants helped her take it on/off while in the water. They're also really cranky about her escort boat putting out a streamer in the water for Nyad to follow. Apparently they want to protect the "integrity" of the EC rules.


However, the so-called “pure” English Channel rules allow the swimmer to be right next to a frickin' boat the entire frickin' swim!! This 30+ foot boat navigates, blocks chop and wind, and provides a huge draft for the adjacent swimmer (who, in the English Channel itself, must be within 5 meters of the boat at all times). The current EC record holder acknowledges swimming in the bow wave of his escort boat.


Any triathlete who has swam off the shoulder of another swimmer knows how big a draft that provides. Imagine the draft off the “shoulder” of a 30 foot boat!


Channel swimmers also have assistants who give them food and water at regular intervals (but there's a big, big deal made about the assistants not touching the swimmer).


Don't get me wrong—I give mad props to anyone who can swim 20+ miles in open water, even with the assistance of a boat. But I don't understand how they overlook their boat and assistants to call their swim “pure and unassisted,” and call using a sighting streamer or a thin, non-neoprene suit “assisted.”


Why is this important? Look at Everest. For decades, everyone who climbed it mounted expeditions with sherpas, oxygen, etc. And then Reinhold Messner climbed it solo and without oxygen, shattering the traditional norms in mountaineering. Now, people like Ueli Steck jog up the Matterhorn in a couple of hours and are home in time for morning espresso.


My point: Some day soon, some bad ass will swim a major channel truly solo. S/he will figure how to carry all the food/water needed, and will swim it without a boat escort (yes, taking the chance of being run over and killed by a ship). Truly solo, truly unassisted. No getting out of the water for lightning, sharks, cramping, puking and exhaustion. Swim across or die trying. It will make the swimmers who go by English Channel rules look like a bunch of tourists.


But the term “solo unassisted” is already claimed by the EC folks, even with their draft/navigation/safety boats and feeding assistants. So how will this amazing feat be recognized?!?


Summary: English Channel swimmers should back off the righteousness about their swim being “pure and unassisted.” It's not.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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Next thing you know, you're going to have long course triathletes calling out the draft-legal crowd for turning triathlon into a running race.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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My guess is that it's a similar concept for why triathletes get in a tithe about drafting during an IM. There are rules and we want them to be followed.

What gets me is that I don't remember Nyad ever saying that she was going to follow English Channel rules (I could be wrong about that). If she said so, then the EC people are semi-justified. If not, well then it's pretty similar to hating cross fit: gives us something to gripe about for no apparent good reason.






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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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...and don't claim to have broken records of those who have followed said rules.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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Nyad never claimed she would follow EC rules. The EC folks now want her to call her swim "assisted," which is fine and accurate.

I'm suggesting that the EC swimmers take a look in the mirror and also call their own swims "assisted."
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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AlwaysCurious wrote:
The EC folks now want her to call her swim "assisted," which is fine and accurate.

Why wouldn't she just tell them to piss off?
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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In the same light, we should actually call every triathlon "draft legal" because even at the legal "non draft" distance, your "drafting" right?

Kinda similar idea would be my bet. There is some sorta "agreement" among a group and her swim wasnt following that agreement, thus wanting the clarification is my guess.

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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [Goosedog] [ In reply to ]
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Goosedog wrote:
AlwaysCurious wrote:
The EC folks now want her to call her swim "assisted," which is fine and accurate.


Why wouldn't she just tell them to piss off?

Because they're also questioning whether or not she took a ride on the boat for 7.5 hours, and they have a little data that suggests such a possibility. That's entertaining drama and all, but I'm more interested in the hypocrisy of calling their own rules "pure".
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
In the same light, we should actually call every triathlon "draft legal" because even at the legal "non draft" distance, your "drafting" right?

Kinda similar idea would be my bet. There is some sorta "agreement" among a group and her swim wasnt following that agreement, thus wanting the clarification is my guess.

That's a good analogy, but I'd argue that if a cyclist really wants to see how fast he can ride 40k, he enters a time trial because there's little chance of drafting.

There's no similar category in OWS. The EC folks consider their swims the equivalent of a time trial, when in fact they're the equivalent of IMAZ.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [Goosedog] [ In reply to ]
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Goosedog wrote:

Why wouldn't she just tell them to piss off?

Yeah, I think she should. She can publish a book, do some motivational speaking seminars, go on swimming more if she wants. She did what she wanted to do and at that age it is a feat, so she can actually tell everyone to just pi$$ off.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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But I think you missed my greater point. Whether they are hypocrites about it, I guess is debate, but I think what the organization simply wants to clarify, is that in fact she didnt really follow the "rules" that is widely accepted in the ows community.

ETA: Which was to my triathlon analogue. We call a "non draft" triathlon, non drafting, yet we actually "draft", but we widely accept it as not gaining any advantage.

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Last edited by: BDoughtie: Sep 10, 13 12:46
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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No boat, no goggles, no suit, no navigation, carry your own food. Cross a body of water like that. That'd be rad.

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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
But I think you missed my greater point. Whether they are hypocrites about it, I guess is debate, but I think what the organization simply wants to clarify, is that in fact she didnt really follow the "rules" that is widely accepted in the ows community.

The trouble is that dozens of ows governing bodies exist around world, few of which follow exactly the same rules. Some of the EC folks think that everyone should follow theirs. The Florida Strait isn't under the "jurisdiction" of any organization, simply because so few people have tried to swim it.

The analogy would be USAT claiming some triathlon record wasn't legit because the race wasn't USAT sanctioned and didn't follow some USAT rule that may or may not be arcane and irrelevant.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [texafornia] [ In reply to ]
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texafornia wrote:
No boat, no goggles, no suit, no navigation, carry your own food. Cross a body of water like that. That'd be rad.

Yes!!! It doesn't even need to be 110 miles to be ultra bad ass. Has it even been done for 20?
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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I thought the biggest English Channel swimming rule is that you have to cross the "English Channel."
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [texafornia] [ In reply to ]
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texafornia wrote:
No boat, no goggles, no suit, no navigation, carry your own food. Cross a body of water like that. That'd be rad.

Outside food would be assistance. Instead, you must catch and kill your own food en route.

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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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AlwaysCurious wrote:

The analogy would be USAT claiming some triathlon record wasn't legit because the race wasn't USAT sanctioned and didn't follow some USAT rule that may or may not be arcane and irrelevant.

OK, I could see the USAT doing that and saying that it maintains the record book for the USAT sanctioned races only. What's wrong with that? It doesn't discredit someone's fast time at the BFE Triathlon World Championships.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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AlwaysCurious wrote:
texafornia wrote:
No boat, no goggles, no suit, no navigation, carry your own food. Cross a body of water like that. That'd be rad.


Yes!!! It doesn't even need to be 110 miles to be ultra bad ass. Has it even been done for 20?

Surely. At least to escape a marauding gang of Vikings or the like. All this first-world "sport" stuff is just us re-enacting survival methods entrained in our genes, the same stuff that has helped us survive since the dawn of time. Whoever fell off a boat in the ocean and drifted to shore the longest distance is the best swimmer ever. Lots of the world still has people running and swimming for their lives every day. Either to catch food or escape getting killed. Us doing it is just the play version of the real thing - like kittens batting around a ping-pong ball.

Sperm carry their own fuel, too. Original swimmers. :)

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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [Goosedog] [ In reply to ]
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She has and from what i undersatand she's alienated most of her community by being generally unpleasant towards them for several decades. She's set herself up as a target and now using their valid critisms as evidence that they are just haters to build publicity
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [Goosedog] [ In reply to ]
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Goosedog wrote:
AlwaysCurious wrote:


The analogy would be USAT claiming some triathlon record wasn't legit because the race wasn't USAT sanctioned and didn't follow some USAT rule that may or may not be arcane and irrelevant.


OK, I could see the USAT doing that and saying that it maintains the record book for the USAT sanctioned races only. What's wrong with that? It doesn't discredit someone's fast time at the BFE Triathlon World Championships.

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Kind of like WTC refusing to acknowledge the pro times in Roth.....


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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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The analogy would be USAT claiming some triathlon record wasn't legit because the race wasn't USAT sanctioned and didn't follow some USAT rule that may or may not be arcane and irrelevant.//

There are no triathlon world records, or any other that course records as far as i know. And USAT does disallow all races not sanctioned with them in their eyes. They do not count in the rankings that they publish every year..

And people do not draft off of their escort boats, or use them to block chop. If they do then the observer is supposed to say something. Can't recall the exact distance, but swimmers have to be off to the side of their boats. What we have found that swimming too close to the side ends up being a huge disadvantage. The cross chop that comes off the boat makes a washing machine for the swimmer, so we always keep our guy well off to the side and a bit in front of the boat..

Listen, it is just one set of rules like you say, but if you want to be recognized as a record holder or even world record holder, then you have to abide by them. Does not mean you cannot go and do a crossing using your own guidelines, in fact someone already swam across that cuba channel before Diana did. It is just that once you do one of these big swims, you need to state how you did it so that future swimmers know what they are up against. I'm part of a team that has and is attempting again the first solo sea of cortez crossing. We plan to go by the rules stated if at all possible, that would give us the actual world record for a solo swim. But if we have to punt at some point and bend or break a rule, we will state what that was and it will be recorded as such. You are getting too wrapped up in the word unassisted, there really is no such thing technically. It would be like the proverbial tree in the forest, if no one is there to see it, did it really fall?? All sport have rules that govern them, this one is no different. Keeps folks from making outlandish claims and making it a mockery.


I do hope however that she swam all the way across. Don't care much about little infractions like being touched or touching a boat, never was her intention in the first place to abide by those rules. If it was then she would have had to hire the neutral observer in the first place, which they did not, so it was never even a 1% part of the plan to begin with.. If she did swim it all it will go down as such and with the caveats that she did a few things outside of the ECR's. WOn't diminish her swim at all, in fact she will have done exactly what she set out to do.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [Goosedog] [ In reply to ]
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Goosedog wrote:
AlwaysCurious wrote:


The analogy would be USAT claiming some triathlon record wasn't legit because the race wasn't USAT sanctioned and didn't follow some USAT rule that may or may not be arcane and irrelevant.


OK, I could see the USAT doing that and saying that it maintains the record book for the USAT sanctioned races only. What's wrong with that? It doesn't discredit someone's fast time at the BFE Triathlon World Championships.

Agreed. It would just look a little silly to trumpet that fact about a race that happened, in, say, England.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [texafornia] [ In reply to ]
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texafornia wrote:
AlwaysCurious wrote:
texafornia wrote:
No boat, no goggles, no suit, no navigation, carry your own food. Cross a body of water like that. That'd be rad.


Yes!!! It doesn't even need to be 110 miles to be ultra bad ass. Has it even been done for 20?


Surely. At least to escape a marauding gang of Vikings or the like. All this first-world "sport" stuff is just us re-enacting survival methods entrained in our genes, the same stuff that has helped us survive since the dawn of time. Whoever fell off a boat in the ocean and drifted to shore the longest distance is the best swimmer ever. Lots of the world still has people running and swimming for their lives every day. Either to catch food or escape getting killed. Us doing it is just the play version of the real thing - like kittens batting around a ping-pong ball.

Sperm carry their own fuel, too. Original swimmers. :)

Excellent points you make! I like your perspective on the world.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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AlwaysCurious wrote:
Goosedog wrote:
AlwaysCurious wrote:
The EC folks now want her to call her swim "assisted," which is fine and accurate.


Why wouldn't she just tell them to piss off?


Because they're also questioning whether or not she took a ride on the boat for 7.5 hours, and they have a little data that suggests such a possibility. That's entertaining drama and all, but I'm more interested in the hypocrisy of calling their own rules "pure".

I kind of agree with you, though I wouldn't go as far as to call it hypocrisy. The reason original EC crosser didn't use a wetsuit wasn't because they were trying to be pure. It was because DAN hadn't invented them. Still, I respect that they attempt to have rules.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
And people do not draft off of their escort boats, or use them to block chop. If they do then the observer is supposed to say something. Can't recall the exact distance, but swimmers have to be off to the side of their boats. What we have found that swimming too close to the side ends up being a huge disadvantage. The cross chop that comes off the boat makes a washing machine for the swimmer, so we always keep our guy well off to the side and a bit in front of the boat..

I'm sure you have a lot more real-world experience in this than I do. But over at places like marathonswimming.org you'll find discussions from experienced channel swimmers about best using the boat to block chop and wind.

It's also my understanding that in the English Channel itself, swimmers are required to stay within 5 meters of the boat at all times, simply because it's such a busy shipping lane. Like you said though, each area has its own rules.

Keeping the swimmer to front and off to side of the boat seems a lot less assisted to me.

We'd love to hear more about your Sea of Cortez swim!
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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AlwaysCurious wrote:
texafornia wrote:
AlwaysCurious wrote:
texafornia wrote:
No boat, no goggles, no suit, no navigation, carry your own food. Cross a body of water like that. That'd be rad.


Yes!!! It doesn't even need to be 110 miles to be ultra bad ass. Has it even been done for 20?


Surely. At least to escape a marauding gang of Vikings or the like. All this first-world "sport" stuff is just us re-enacting survival methods entrained in our genes, the same stuff that has helped us survive since the dawn of time. Whoever fell off a boat in the ocean and drifted to shore the longest distance is the best swimmer ever. Lots of the world still has people running and swimming for their lives every day. Either to catch food or escape getting killed. Us doing it is just the play version of the real thing - like kittens batting around a ping-pong ball.

Sperm carry their own fuel, too. Original swimmers. :)


Excellent points you make! I like your perspective on the world.

Thanks! Yeah, this "record" stuff is a little silly when you stop and think and realize that somebody once probably floated 1000 miles to another shore while nibbling on coconuts after being swept to sea by a storm. We don't celebrate that because nobody knows and he was probably shot in the head with an arrow 5 minutes after landing.

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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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...1/10..nice try though


my ex-wife swam the english channel so i can only speak of her experience and her attitude. i was there the whole time and its on youtube if youre so inclined to watch the video...

in terms of attitude: i trained with her to an extent and theres a large contingent of english channel swimmers from connecticut (where i live). the is absolutely no attitude i ever saw from any of them in terms of thinking they were better than anyone else, particularly triathletes. my ex did two ironmans (and was the first amateur out of the water in one..)..many of the other channel swimmers have done triathlons up to and including ironman distance. once again, massive respect for the event, and other athletes in general...no attitude whatsoever. i never heard any mocking whatsoever coming out of any of the channel swimmers mouths regarding wetsuits. in races she wore one and was actually sponsored by Aquaman wetsuits..

in terms of unassisted i would venture that what theyre referring to is the fact that you cant touch the boat, another person or get out of the water for any reason (for the first time ever the boat captain saw a shark..a 14ft basking shark in the water...had no idea what it was at the time but im like 'get her out'...they said if she gets out she cant go back in...of course basking sharks are plankton eaters but man this puppy was HUGE...luckily she never saw it)..

what i did for her in terms of nutrition was to 'throw' her water bottles with a rope, but i couldnt even hand them to her.

in terms of boat position..at no point did she get behind or in front of the boat...the captain did move the boat at one point from one side of her body to another, i can only guess to block waves but to be honest it didnt do squat. thats a mighty big body of water and a tiny boat isnt going to block anything.

you can call her or any of them a hippocrite however after standing on that deck for as long as i did (12:08) i can tell you without a doubt, from my own personal observation, that was the most badass thing ive ever witnessed in terms of an endurance event. it was signficantly harder than an ironman for sure. i would rather do three ironmans back to back that swim the channel. it was that hard.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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I think it's good ot have rules, but I agree they should be reviewed for ensure they aren;t being abused and maintain the spirit of the event.

Honestly, this summer I went for an open water swim while on vacation. My brother in law and my wife's cousin followed me in kayaks so boaters didn't run me over and carried a bottle of water for me. They were 10' away most of the time and handing me a bottle of water which I hardly consider assisting. I did however have a wetsuit on. I think you must have some sort of a escort boat and spotter to swim open water safely unless you're swimming with another person. I actually have thought about actually doing a longer OWS in the Mississippi River next year before the water gets too warm to use a wetsuit if there isn't major spring flooding. Can't be any worse than most of the ponds I've raced in.


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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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AlwaysCurious wrote:

My point: Some day soon, some bad ass will swim a major channel truly solo. S/he will figure how to carry all the food/water needed, and will swim it without a boat escort (yes, taking the chance of being run over and killed by a ship). Truly solo, truly unassisted. No getting out of the water for lightning, sharks, cramping, puking and exhaustion. Swim across or die trying. It will make the swimmers who go by English Channel rules look like a bunch of tourists.


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This could not happen because it violates the rule requiring a certified pilot and observer to verify that it happened, without which you would have an "if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around does it make a sound" scenario. The Nyad channel rule skeptics make the periodic Slowtwitch witchhunts look amateurish, so it would never fly even if it was somehow done.

However, speaking of a bad ass, Matthew Webb was the first to swim the English Channel in 1875. It was not solo and who knows how he used his escort boats in terms of drafting and shielding, but the swim took him almost 22 hours and he ended up doing 39 miles due to the currents. He swam breaststroke the entire way and subsided on beer and boiled meat.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [butch] [ In reply to ]
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Like I said in my first post: I have huge respect for anyone who can swim 20+ miles open water, and agree it's way harder than completing an ironman. But my big questions is: Why call it "solo and unassisted"?

Shouldn't the person who swims it with no boat, no goggles, no suit, no navigation, and carries her own food get that title, and be considered more bad ass than those who use a boat, navigation, and feeders?

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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [Rambler] [ In reply to ]
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Rambler wrote:
I thought the biggest English Channel swimming rule is that you have to cross the "English Channel."

No. The first rule of English Channel Swim Club is...

Ah! Almost got me there!

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Chris
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [Trifecta] [ In reply to ]
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Trifecta wrote:

This could not happen because it violates the rule requiring a certified pilot and observer to verify that it happened, without which you would have an "if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around does it make a sound" scenario. The Nyad channel rule skeptics make the periodic Slowtwitch witchhunts look amateurish, so it would never fly even if it was somehow done.

Fine. The only thing she'd wear is a GPS and go-pro camera, both with real-time satellite uplink. If someone insists on observing from a boat they can do it from a 1/2 mile away, as long as they agree to not rescue her.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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20 miles is not way harder than an Ironman. 2 mph = 10 hours. If it's choppy, then it gets ugly. The biggest issue with OWS is that you don't know what you're gonna get out there and it can change at any minute. You better train to swim twice the time you think it should take, just in case.

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Last edited by: texafornia: Sep 10, 13 14:19
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [texafornia] [ In reply to ]
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have you ever swam 20 miles in the open ocean? 62 degrees?


additionally the english channel is really no less than 26 miles in most cases, depending on whether you make it halfway before the current changes...the boat captain on the day my ex swam it said she swam a smidge over 28..
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [texafornia] [ In reply to ]
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texafornia wrote:
20 miles is not way harder than an Ironman. 2 mph = 10 hours. If it's choppy, then it gets ugly. The biggest issue with OWS is that you don't know what you're gonna get out there and it can change at any minute. You better train to swim twice the time you think it should take, just in case.

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Apples and Oranges but I'll ask you this,how many Ironman finishers do you think could swim the English Channel?

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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [butch] [ In reply to ]
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butch wrote:
have you ever swam 20 miles in the open ocean? 62 degrees?


additionally the english channel is really no less than 26 miles in most cases, depending on whether you make it halfway before the current changes...the boat captain on the day my ex swam it said she swam a smidge over 28..

I believe he swam across Lake Tahoe, the long way.

Ian
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [butch] [ In reply to ]
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butch wrote:
have you ever swam 20 miles in the open ocean? 62 degrees?


additionally the english channel is really no less than 26 miles in most cases, depending on whether you make it halfway before the current changes...the boat captain on the day my ex swam it said she swam a smidge over 28..

No - Swam 22 miles at 6200 feet elevation, south to north the entire length of Lake Tahoe. 13 hours. And the bonus is you can walk fine the next day, unlike an ironman. Definitely not way harder. Actually quite comparable. I highly recommend it. :)

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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [Nick Mallett] [ In reply to ]
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Nick Mallett wrote:
texafornia wrote:
20 miles is not way harder than an Ironman. 2 mph = 10 hours. If it's choppy, then it gets ugly. The biggest issue with OWS is that you don't know what you're gonna get out there and it can change at any minute. You better train to swim twice the time you think it should take, just in case.


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Apples and Oranges but I'll ask you this,how many Ironman finishers do you think could swim the English Channel?

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Probably the same percentage as Channel swimmers who could finish an IM in the same year as their crossing.

But, yes, I agree that it's apple and oranges. For me the channel is way harder because I hope to never in my life be in 62 degree water without a wetsuit for longer than maybe 5 minutes.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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AlwaysCurious wrote:
Nick Mallett wrote:
texafornia wrote:
20 miles is not way harder than an Ironman. 2 mph = 10 hours. If it's choppy, then it gets ugly. The biggest issue with OWS is that you don't know what you're gonna get out there and it can change at any minute. You better train to swim twice the time you think it should take, just in case.


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Apples and Oranges but I'll ask you this,how many Ironman finishers do you think could swim the English Channel?

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Probably the same percentage as Channel swimmers who could finish an IM in the same year as their crossing.

But, yes, I agree that it's apple and oranges. For me the channel is way harder because I hope to never in my life be in 62 degree water without a wetsuit for longer than maybe 5 minutes.

My opinion: 90% of channel crossers could finish an IM well under the cut off, and something like 10% of IM finishers could swim the channel.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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Nyad swam for a really long time and went really far. She put up with some really messed up skin /mouth issues. This is undisputed. She is an amazing distance swimmer. The current helped her. The water was warm. She wore some kind of wetsuit for part of the epic swim.

The EC is 60 degrees. The current doesn't help you. The rules are rigorously enforced. Less than 1500 people have done it.

Maybe 0.5% of IM finishers could swim the EC within the rules. That event is a wholly different sort of effort.

Read 'Dover Solo' if you're interested in the training and event.

Nyad should have swum the EC at some point. For some reason it is not on her resume. That means something.

I'd love to have the ability to try that but no way I could get used to 60 degree water.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [Lederman] [ In reply to ]
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I was being generous with my numbers. Nyad tried it 5 times but never made it ( psssst: she is not that great of a swimmer!).
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [butch] [ In reply to ]
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Sometimes a good reason for the boat to change sides is to prevent the swimmer from breathing engine fumes.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [texafornia] [ In reply to ]
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Out of curiosity, what was the water temperature when you did your Lake Tahoe swim?
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [Lederman] [ In reply to ]
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Lederman wrote:
Nyad should have swum the EC at some point. For some reason it is not on her resume. That means something.

She did try 3 times to swim the channel but failed all 3 times. I think it was said that the currents were too strong or bad weather caused her to quit. She has also stated she can't swim very well in the cold water.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [npage148] [ In reply to ]
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the press comment where she was hating on Chole McC was uncalled for. There is lots of goodwill and spirit in the OWS ranks, people don't hate on each other, not cool.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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I train in a squad with maybe 15 people who've done the EC and a bunch tri guys, some pro's, guys well under 9 hrs, and there is almost no chance in hell some skinny tri guy is going to complete the EC.

You have to put on some serious weight to handle the cold and that takes a long time and you need serious conditioning in the cold as well. Some of the EC guys could do an IM in under cut-off but it wouldn't be pretty.

As someone else said it's apples and oranges... no apples and laptops, not even in same postcode.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [SwimRunTri] [ In reply to ]
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SwimRunTri wrote:
I train in a squad with maybe 15 people who've done the EC and a bunch tri guys, some pro's, guys well under 9 hrs, and there is almost no chance in hell some skinny tri guy is going to complete the EC.

You have to put on some serious weight to handle the cold and that takes a long time and you need serious conditioning in the cold as well. Some of the EC guys could do an IM in under cut-off but it wouldn't be pretty.

As someone else said it's apples and oranges... no apples and laptops, not even in same postcode.

That's exactly what I've always thought, i.e. that the water temp would be the toughest thing to handle unless I gained around 30 lbs or so. I think a lot of good tri swimmers could do the EC if they were allowed to use a full wetsuit. I swam 4 days in 57-58 degree water a few years ago w/o a wetsuit, and even on the 4th day I still felt damn cold after just 30 min. Don't know how along cold water adaptation takes but must be more than 4 days, and/or I'm just too thin, at 6'2" and 175, to adapt to 58 water.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJVeHmc3hSw Is this bad ass enough? Because of rules I was denied My lake Ontario crossing this summer( I had 3 boats and needed 4 boats to be sanctioned) But I will try again.

http://lakeontarioswim.blogspot.ca/
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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AlwaysCurious wrote:
Like I said in my first post: I have huge respect for anyone who can swim 20+ miles open water, and agree it's way harder than completing an ironman. But my big questions is: Why call it "solo and unassisted"?

Shouldn't the person who swims it with no boat, no goggles, no suit, no navigation, and carries her own food get that title, and be considered more bad ass than those who use a boat, navigation, and feeders?

Just FYI...

If you don't have an offical boat with you while crossing the channel you will be plucked out of the water and arrested.

jaretj
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [texafornia] [ In reply to ]
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texafornia wrote:
butch wrote:
have you ever swam 20 miles in the open ocean? 62 degrees?


additionally the english channel is really no less than 26 miles in most cases, depending on whether you make it halfway before the current changes...the boat captain on the day my ex swam it said she swam a smidge over 28..


No - Swam 22 miles at 6200 feet elevation, south to north the entire length of Lake Tahoe. 13 hours. And the bonus is you can walk fine the next day, unlike an ironman. Definitely not way harder. Actually quite comparable. I highly recommend it. :)

That doesn't sound too bad. Warm water ? Wetsuit ? Freshwater ? No currents ?

It's in no way comparable to swimming the English Channel though.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [jgp] [ In reply to ]
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jgp wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJVeHmc3hSw Is this bad ass enough? Because of rules I was denied My lake Ontario crossing this summer( I had 3 boats and needed 4 boats to be sanctioned) But I will try again.http://lakeontarioswim.blogspot.ca/[/quote[/url]]

Cool video. How did you attach the boat to your body? I have a kayak and might jumping out and swimming and I would not want to lose the boat.

Swim - Bike - Run the rest is just clothing changes.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [cougie] [ In reply to ]
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Looks like this Belgium swimmer had a fairly eventful Channel crossing last week:

Another successful solo swim was achieved by Carl Plasschaert on the 1st September. His time was an amazing 12hrs and 06mins (subject to ratification) with pilot Eric Hartley and observer Keith Oiller. Carl landed on the rocks approximately 1/2 mile south of Cap Gris-Nez at 19:11 hrs. Carl is reportedly only the 14th Belgian to successfully complete a solo Channel Swim and did so in the worst conditions that the observer had experienced in the past 2 seasons. A south westerly wind of 20 kts was recorded with an estimated 8 ft swell with breaking waves over the last 5 hours of the swim.

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´Get the most aero and light bike you can get. With the aero advantage you can be saving minutes and with the weight advantage you can be saving seconds. In a race against the clock both matter.´

BMANX
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [linhardt] [ In reply to ]
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I just used my nylon feeding line tied one end to the front ring of my boat and the other end tied around my waist.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [texafornia] [ In reply to ]
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texafornia wrote:

Thanks! Yeah, this "record" stuff is a little silly when you stop and think and realize that somebody once probably floated 1000 miles to another shore while nibbling on coconuts after being swept to sea by a storm. We don't celebrate that because nobody knows and he was probably shot in the head with an arrow 5 minutes after landing.

But whoever shot him in the head with an arrow was the descendant of someone else who floated 1000 miles to another shore while nibbling on coconuts. Somebody was the first to make it to all those South Pacific islands. And look at Hawaii--it's more than 1000 miles from the closest island. Just think how many people died sailing to nowhere before a man and a woman landed.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [jgp] [ In reply to ]
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jgp wrote:
I just used my nylon feeding line tied one end to the front ring of my boat and the other end tied around my waist.

I would think that would chafe like mad.

Swim - Bike - Run the rest is just clothing changes.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [Rambler] [ In reply to ]
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Rambler wrote:
I thought the biggest English Channel swimming rule is that you have to cross the "English Channel."

+1 Different water can have totally different conditions. Maybe the English channel isn't a high jellyfish area so there would be no reason for them to need protection from them. They can keep their "EC" rules in the English channel and they can come try the Cuba to Florida swim with "CF" rules. Jellyfish protection allowed. Or if someone else wants to be the first to complete the Cuba to Florida swim without jellyfish protection and outdo Nyad, then have at it.


--
"If you can't win, make the guy ahead of you break the record." - Anonymous
Runner's High
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [jgp] [ In reply to ]
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jgp wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJVeHmc3hSw Is this bad ass enough? Because of rules I was denied My lake Ontario crossing this summer( I had 3 boats and needed 4 boats to be sanctioned) But I will try again.

http://lakeontarioswim.blogspot.ca/

Very awesome!! Why not just tow the 4th boat that you need to be sanctioned? :)
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
That's exactly what I've always thought, i.e. that the water temp would be the toughest thing to handle unless I gained around 30 lbs or so. I think a lot of good tri swimmers could do the EC if they were allowed to use a full wetsuit. I swam 4 days in 57-58 degree water a few years ago w/o a wetsuit, and even on the 4th day I still felt damn cold after just 30 min. Don't know how along cold water adaptation takes but must be more than 4 days, and/or I'm just too thin, at 6'2" and 175, to adapt to 58 water.

Which brings up an interesting discussion. Which of the following is more bad ass--swimming the 20 mile Catalina Channel (for example. Insert any of your favorite channels) either:
  1. No wetsuit, but with a navigation/feeding boat that will also block wind/chop and pull the swimmer in case of trouble. (ie: Catalina Channel Swimmer Federation rules); or,
  2. Wetsuit, but no boat at all for navigation/feeding/drafting/rescue. Entirely self-supported and solo.

I'm not concerned about which federations would sanction it: that's bureaucracy and ego. I want to discuss which is harder, and why no one does the latter.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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I think option 2 would be harder simply from a navigation point of view. I don't see how a stand alone swimmer could set the course to navigate the currents and reach shore.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [Trirunner] [ In reply to ]
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Trirunner wrote:
I think option 2 would be harder simply from a navigation point of view. I don't see how a stand alone swimmer could set the course to navigate the currents and reach shore.

I agree. That's why I wonder how the "no wetsuit" rule has become the standard of purity. It's like saying, "I'm going to run across the Sahara, and it will be pure, solo and unassisted because I won't wear shoes." But neglecting to mention you'll have a Land Rover blazing trail, providing food and water, and rescuing you if things go wrong.

I want to see a new generation of bad ass open water swimmers dispense with the dinosaurs locked in their arcane and irrelevant rules.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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AlwaysCurious wrote:
Trirunner wrote:
I think option 2 would be harder simply from a navigation point of view. I don't see how a stand alone swimmer could set the course to navigate the currents and reach shore.


I agree. That's why I wonder how the "no wetsuit" rule has become the standard of purity. It's like saying, "I'm going to run across the Sahara, and it will be pure, solo and unassisted because I won't wear shoes." But neglecting to mention you'll have a Land Rover blazing trail, providing food and water, and rescuing you if things go wrong.

I want to see a new generation of bad ass open water swimmers dispense with the dinosaurs locked in their arcane and irrelevant rules.

----

That reminds me of watching Ewan McGregor and Charley Boorman in The Long Way Down when they were in a Nth African desert doing their EPIC,BADASS,AMAZING ride on BMW 1100s and fully supported from Ireland to Cape Town and they come across a German cyclist who was five years into a solo trip around the world.Ewan turns to Charley and says something like "Don't you feels like a pussy now?"

I cracked up!!

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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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AlwaysCurious wrote:
Trirunner wrote:
I think option 2 would be harder simply from a navigation point of view. I don't see how a stand alone swimmer could set the course to navigate the currents and reach shore.


I agree. That's why I wonder how the "no wetsuit" rule has become the standard of purity. It's like saying, "I'm going to run across the Sahara, and it will be pure, solo and unassisted because I won't wear shoes." But neglecting to mention you'll have a Land Rover blazing trail, providing food and water, and rescuing you if things go wrong.

I want to see a new generation of bad ass open water swimmers dispense with the dinosaurs locked in their arcane and irrelevant rules.

Ya, I think once you're out of sight of the shore you're aiming for, you'd be hard pressed to navigate your way over there. I suppose you might reach shore eventually after swimming 30 miles or so and ending up 5 or 6 miles down, or up, from where you were aiming for.

On the whole though, I think you're fighting a losing battle though, as OW purists have been "no wetsuit" for like 40 or 50 yrs or more. That's a lot of tradition to go against. What I'd like to know is how fat would I have to get??? Are we talking no visible abs at all, or even full-blown love handles??? I wonder if anyone's ever done an evaluation of the relative BMI of those who've swum the Channel, i.e. does it take a BMI of 25, 28, 30, or what???


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [Nick Mallett] [ In reply to ]
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Nick Mallett wrote:

That reminds me of watching Ewan McGregor and Charley Boorman in The Long Way Down when they were in a Nth African desert doing their EPIC,BADASS,AMAZING ride on BMW 1100s and fully supported from Ireland to Cape Town and they come across a German cyclist who was five years into a solo trip around the world.Ewan turns to Charley and says something like "Don't you feels like a pussy now?"

I cracked up!!

---

Ha!

It's definitely nature's way of reminding us to keep our egos in check. Like when I'm cross-country skiing and get passed by a pregnant lady pulling a ski-Burley. http://www.burley.com/home/bur/page_3256
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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If I had the 4th boat I wouldn't need to tow any boat! lol

Ok when I did my 16km trial swim in lake ontario the water went from calm to 3-4ft swells I only had one boat (27ft) as the support boat, no kayaks or other support boats needed for the trial swim.
I only had a shortened crew of my wife and daughter (to time my feedings and pass me my food), my swim master, ( official from SSO watching my swim) his niece a second swim master in training and the Captain, at no time did i swim along side the boat except to get my feed, I did not swim behind the boat or along the wake, for the most part the boat was usually about 20-30ft to my right so I could see it and the crew to call me for my feedings, then I would swim up to the boat.

Would i do the swim without a support boat? without or with a wetsuit? No way! You need a boat for sighting and crew for feeding, they navigate and the swimmer follows along on the open water sighting off the boat. The only time on a Solo swim that you would have boats, usually zodiacs beside you is while you swim at night, then they are on both sides of the swimmer about 5 ft from you to keep you in sight.
Could you swim solo on open water swim with a life preserver,..I mean wetsuit? Yes, anyone can swim long with a PFD, er I mean a wetsuit! ;) but the challenge is to swim naked (no wetsuit) because when you get tired with a wetsuit, you can easly rest floating on the water at any time for as long as you want, but try treading water naked after swimming for hours on end? .

When I swam pulling my boat, the boat was my lifeline while in the middle of the lake if I got in trouble, unless I had a heart attack? lol I carried my feeding on the boat I pulled, which was all liquids attached to a line hanging over the side of the boat that I could reach while I swam tethered to the boat and I always had sight of the shore which made my swim possible, and of course no wetsuit used. But could this be done across a large body of water? probably, but i wouldn't recomend it because once you lose sight of land in the water swimming you have no Idea where you are or where you are going, With no land to sight you could be swimming in circles! thus the reason for the navigation boat with GPS to keep the swimmer on course.

My advice is to learn to swim open water without a PFD, er wetsuit, before attempting any solo swimming and do it safely with support! :)

"Which brings up an interesting discussion. Which of the following is more bad ass--swimming the 20 mile Catalina Channel (for example. Insert any of your favorite channels) either:


  1. No wetsuit, but with a navigation/feeding boat that will also block wind/chop and pull the swimmer in case of trouble. (ie: Catalina Channel Swimmer Federation rules); or,
  2. Wetsuit, but no boat at all for navigation/feeding/drafting/rescue. Entirely self-supported and solo.

I'm not concerned about which federations would sanction it: that's bureaucracy and ego. I want to discuss which is harder, and why no one does the latter."
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [linhardt] [ In reply to ]
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No chafing, just put the line around my waist, adjusted it till it was comfortable and away I went.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:

Ya, I think once you're out of sight of the shore you're aiming for, you'd be hard pressed to navigate your way over there. I suppose you might reach shore eventually after swimming 30 miles or so and ending up 5 or 6 miles down, or up, from where you were aiming for.

On the whole though, I think you're fighting a losing battle though, as OW purists have been "no wetsuit" for like 40 or 50 yrs or more. That's a lot of tradition to go against. What I'd like to know is how fat would I have to get??? Are we talking no visible abs at all, or even full-blown love handles??? I wonder if anyone's ever done an evaluation of the relative BMI of those who've swum the Channel, i.e. does it take a BMI of 25, 28, 30, or what???

Good question. It looks like some research has been done. Here's one study. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...articles/PMC1724380/ (free pdf download).

They studied 8 marathon swimmers in a 6-day relay, water temps 9-11 C (48-52 F). They found a strong correlation between body fat (skinfold measurements) and the length of time they could stay in the water.

The % fat is not listed, but just going by bmi--the lightest swimmers were in the 22-24 range, and could stay in the water 20-30 minutes at a time. The heaviest ones were 26-30+ bmi, and could stay in the water longer than an hour at a time.

So while an "average" triathlete might have the natural insulation do a channel swim, a lean competitive one, possibly not.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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Most the guys I've known to do EC aim for 20+% body fat . If you are super fast maybe less but even if only in for 8 hours you need all the padding you can get.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [jgp] [ In reply to ]
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jgp wrote:

When I swam pulling my boat, the boat was my lifeline while in the middle of the lake if I got in trouble, unless I had a heart attack? lol I carried my feeding on the boat I pulled, which was all liquids attached to a line hanging over the side of the boat that I could reach while I swam tethered to the boat and I always had sight of the shore which made my swim possible, and of course no wetsuit used. But could this be done across a large body of water? probably, but i wouldn't recomend it because once you lose sight of land in the water swimming you have no Idea where you are or where you are going, With no land to sight you could be swimming in circles! thus the reason for the navigation boat with GPS to keep the swimmer on course.

Sure, but for a couple thousand years sailors have been crossing oceans with celestial navigation. For a daytime swim a watch, the sun, and some knowledge (and application) of navigation are all that's needed. I've done it on land while trekking.

Night time you might be hosed if there's cloud cover (no moon or stars), but that's part of the adventure, no?

Just because it's hard doesn't mean it's impossible! Let's hear it for the new breed of adventure swimmers!!!
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [SwimRunTri] [ In reply to ]
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SwimRunTri wrote:
Most the guys I've known to do EC aim for 20+% body fat . If you are super fast maybe less but even if only in for 8 hours you need all the padding you can get.

Do they look like this?


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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [Nick Mallett] [ In reply to ]
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Nick Mallett wrote:
www.johnvanwisse.com


-----

Methinks that his channel swimming weight:


Is quite different from his Kona weight:

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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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Ya, think he's prob about 35-40 lbs heavier, which is about what I'd prob need to gain myself if I wanted to try the EC. I think I'll stick with warmer swims:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [cougie] [ In reply to ]
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Firstly, huge props to anyone who can swim these distances in any conditions!

There's just no point in trying to compare the English Channel to the Staright of Cortez or Lake Tahoe or pretty much any other body of water. I grew-up swimming in (certainly not across!) the EC and have sailed in it a great deal. That is a scary body of water, even in a boat! The currents are huge as the water funnels through the Straights of Dover (where the crossing is shortest); the water is always freakin' cold even in "summer" (which, by US standards basically doesn't exist there! :-) ) and even a "flat" day has considerable swell/chop. On top of that, it's like a super highway for shipping - very scary!

Swimming the Channel is an enormous achievement and I would respectfully suggest that a VERY small number of Ironman finishers could complete it unless they had undergone significant "Channel specific" training.

It seems to me that the EC swimmers should be happy with their own accomplishments - why do they have to be compared to Nyad's (and vice versa)?


http://rogersroadrash.blogspot.com/
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [Rolly Jogger] [ In reply to ]
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Rolly Jogger wrote:
Firstly, huge props to anyone who can swim these distances in any conditions!

There's just no point in trying to compare the English Channel to the Staright of Cortez or Lake Tahoe or pretty much any other body of water. I grew-up swimming in (certainly not across!) the EC and have sailed in it a great deal. That is a scary body of water, even in a boat! The currents are huge as the water funnels through the Straights of Dover (where the crossing is shortest); the water is always freakin' cold even in "summer" (which, by US standards basically doesn't exist there! :-) ) and even a "flat" day has considerable swell/chop. On top of that, it's like a super highway for shipping - very scary!

Swimming the Channel is an enormous achievement and I would respectfully suggest that a VERY small number of Ironman finishers could complete it unless they had undergone significant "Channel specific" training.

It seems to me that the EC swimmers should be happy with their own accomplishments - why do they have to be compared to Nyad's (and vice versa)?

Since you actually used to live on or near the EC, when you saw people trying to swim the Channel, did it appear that they were getting any sort of draft off of the boat??? Just curious, no plans to try:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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I have never actually witnessed a cross-channel attempt.....


http://rogersroadrash.blogspot.com/
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [Rolly Jogger] [ In reply to ]
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Rolly Jogger wrote:
I have never actually witnessed a cross-channel attempt.....

Ah, OK, just thought maybe in your years of sailing, but I guess the channel attempts are not really all that common, i.e. there aren't 20 folks out there every day trying to swim it:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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How hard can a Channel crossing be? The Top Gear guys "drove" a Toyota Hilux across it. Of course the Morris sailboat and VW Caravan didn't get out of the port.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [SwimRunTri] [ In reply to ]
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SwimRunTri wrote:
Most the guys I've known to do EC aim for 20+% body fat . If you are super fast maybe less but even if only in for 8 hours you need all the padding you can get.

Thinking back on the 08 and 12 Games' 10K swims, most of those guys appeared to be pretty lean, e.g. Ous Mellouli might be 10% fat at the most. So, even a guy like him would need to gain maybe 30 lbs or so to do the EC??? Is it your impression that the top marathon swimmers purposely gain weight whenever they have a cold water race coming up??? Or, is there a divide between those who swim say 60 degrees and up vs under 60??? Just wondered, since most of those Oly OW swimmers looked about the same as pool swimmers.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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it's the cold, it's a completely different animal than the heat or any kind of tri. The guys who I swim with who've done it have all gone on strict diets to increase body fat all while swimming 40-60km a week. there is no 12-16 week training plan for EC, it's a 9-12 month journey.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [SwimRunTri] [ In reply to ]
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SwimRunTri wrote:
it's the cold, it's a completely different animal than the heat or any kind of tri. The guys who I swim with who've done it have all gone on strict diets to increase body fat all while swimming 40-60km a week. there is no 12-16 week training plan for EC, it's a 9-12 month journey.

Oh I fully get the cold part, and I can see how it would take 9 months or more to gain the weight and to do enough km to be able to swim for 15 hrs or so. Still, it is amazing to think that someone like Mellouli or Lurz would have to bulk up but, I guess the cold is the same for everyone.

Just one other question: do you think those guys floated better such that swimming was actually easier after gaining that fat??? Or was their body position already so good that the extra flotation did not really make much difference???


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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Can anyone give me any tips for first time swimming in the English channel? I have signed up to complete one and I'm searching for top tips. I have found this article which I found really helpful bit.ly/1lOHMdp

Any other tips are much appreciated :)

Thanks!
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [carlapkeegan] [ In reply to ]
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This is not the place for intelligent comment on Channel Swimming.

marathonswimmers.org definitely is, dripping with channel and marathon swimmers.

There's also the channel swimmers group on yahoo groups. But easiest to start at the marathonswimmers.org forum.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [Kevin in MD] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Oh, c'mon, there were some good takeaways from this thread:

If he kq'd this year, he needs to gain 40 pounds

If he doesn't have a support boat, he can tow his own (although that may be considered "assisted", as he's technically touching the boat. )

Don't harsh on anyone else's definition of "unassisted", cuz your own probably ain't that pure either.
Quote Reply
Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [SwimRunTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
SwimRunTri wrote:
Most the guys I've known to do EC aim for 20+% body fat . If you are super fast maybe less but even if only in for 8 hours you need all the padding you can get.

but getting that fat will definitely harm my bike and run if I were to do an Enduroman!
Quote Reply
Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I swam with a guy in college, Chad Hundeby, who had the channel crossing record for 20 years. He didn’t gain a lot of weight training for it.

All of the Olympic 10k swimmers started out in the pool. Some of them went on to specialize but a good number compete in both open water and the pool. But all of them train almost exclusively in the pool.

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
Quote Reply
Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [carlapkeegan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Get an experienced, qualified coach
Get in the weight room
Gradually build up your volume
Plan on a 12 - 18 month training cycle depending on your background
Don’t bring a triathlon mentality to open water swimming
You don’t need to swim as much as some of the marathon swimmers will tell you.
Enjoy and have fun. Less than 2,000 people have successfully completed it since Captain Webb.

Tim

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
Quote Reply
Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
All Right, Zombie thread from 7 years ago, let's hit it hard!!!
Quote Reply
Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
SnappingT wrote:
I swam with a guy in college, Chad Hundeby, who had the channel crossing record for 20 years. He didn’t gain a lot of weight training for it.

All of the Olympic 10k swimmers started out in the pool. Some of them went on to specialize but a good number compete in both open water and the pool. But all of them train almost exclusively in the pool.

I remember Hundeby, he won the 25K at the '91 OW Champs. I fully get that most 10K swimmers train mostly in the pool, and I think I could swim a 10K in 60* water w/o a wetsuit if I had to. However, to go 10 hrs or more in 60* water is a diff story, at least it is for me. In any case, I have no plans to swim more than 10K, and that will be in the pool for the USMS postal event. :)

On a side note, Erica Brown is now training at the club I swim with, mainly due to the Covid shutting down the U of TN pools. As you prob know, she set a new AR for the 100 fly (49.38) at the SECs back in Feb pre-Covid, and she's gone 45-high fr 100 free and 21.X for 50 free. She is actually quite nice, quite cute, and of course very fast. Also, you can just tell that, come hell or high water, she is going to make that team next year. I think she has the drive and focus to make it. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
Quote Reply
Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
While most channel swimmers do indeed carry a bit of excess body fat, it is not always the case. Look up Jim McConica. He is relatively skinny, definitely not fat, and he has done the channel swim from Catalina many times, often in low 50 degree temperatures. He frequently does training swims, completely solo swimming several miles out to an oil rig, and then back. And if you want a definition of bad ass, for a few years in his early 50’s he would swim 30,000 (minimum) meters a day, every day, for the entire month of February! Some ow, some pool- typical pool swim was Sunday’s when he would swim 300 x 100 METERS long course, on a 1:15 interval! In his 50’s. How many triathletes could do that?
Anyway, the point is you do not have to be fat to acclimate- but to an earlier post, it takes a lot longer than 4 days!
And there are all kinds of bad ass people doing bad ass things without seeking attention!
Quote Reply
Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [IntenseOne] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
IntenseOne wrote:
While most channel swimmers do indeed carry a bit of excess body fat, it is not always the case. Look up Jim McConica. He is relatively skinny, definitely not fat, and he has done the channel swim from Catalina many times, often in low 50 degree temperatures. He frequently does training swims, completely solo swimming several miles out to an oil rig, and then back. And if you want a definition of bad ass, for a few years in his early 50’s he would swim 30,000 (minimum) meters a day, every day, for the entire month of February! Some ow, some pool- typical pool swim was Sunday’s when he would swim 300 x 100 METERS long course, on a 1:15 interval! In his 50’s. How many triathletes could do that?
Anyway, the point is you do not have to be fat to acclimate- but to an earlier post, it takes a lot longer than 4 days!
And there are all kinds of bad ass people doing bad ass things without seeking attention!

I have heard of McConica, mainly via Monty. The 30,000 m/day for 28 days straight is pretty phenomenal!!! And, regarding 30 x 100 lcm on 1:15, I'd be doing well at 10 x 100 yd on 1:15, and that only on my very best days. But then I've never even come close to setting any Masters national records vs he's set 50 or more. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
Quote Reply
Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
SnappingT wrote:
Get an experienced, qualified coach
Get in the weight room
Gradually build up your volume
Plan on a 12 - 18 month training cycle depending on your background
Don’t bring a triathlon mentality to open water swimming
You don’t need to swim as much as some of the marathon swimmers will tell you.
Enjoy and have fun. Less than 2,000 people have successfully completed it since Captain Webb.

Tim


What's the use of getting in the weight room? I HATE strength / weight training and no one in the world can make me to do it! And why don't bring a triathlon mentality? I have just found another coach to help my swim technique as my previous one didn't work (couldn't make me faster), and he's a national triathlete.


IntenseOne wrote:
While most channel swimmers do indeed carry a bit of excess body fat, it is not always the case. Look up Jim McConica. He is relatively skinny, definitely not fat, and he has done the channel swim from Catalina many times, often in low 50 degree temperatures. He frequently does training swims, completely solo swimming several miles out to an oil rig, and then back. And if you want a definition of bad ass, for a few years in his early 50’s he would swim 30,000 (minimum) meters a day, every day, for the entire month of February! Some ow, some pool- typical pool swim was Sunday’s when he would swim 300 x 100 METERS long course, on a 1:15 interval! In his 50’s. How many triathletes could do that?
Anyway, the point is you do not have to be fat to acclimate- but to an earlier post, it takes a lot longer than 4 days!
And there are all kinds of bad ass people doing bad ass things without seeking attention!


That's bad ass!

ericmulk wrote:

That's exactly what I've always thought, i.e. that the water temp would be the toughest thing to handle unless I gained around 30 lbs or so. I think a lot of good tri swimmers could do the EC if they were allowed to use a full wetsuit. I swam 4 days in 57-58 degree water a few years ago w/o a wetsuit, and even on the 4th day I still felt damn cold after just 30 min. Don't know how along cold water adaptation takes but must be more than 4 days, and/or I'm just too thin, at 6'2" and 175, to adapt to 58 water.


I planned to do the acclimation earlier this year then signed up for the channel. My plan was that, if I could last 6 hours in 61 or less (i.e. the qualification requirement of CSPF), I would signed up for a slot. However unfortunately that the winter was warm and the sea never reached my target temperature. The coldest was about 64 this year. When I did my longest race which took me more than 5 years, the temperature was about 68 which was far too warm. The pool I use reached 61 for a few days, I time trialed my 1500 m on the coldest day and it was more than 2 minutes faster than a few months ago. However as I swam before work on those days the longest I did was only 2 hours because I had to go to work afterwards.

Despite I couldn't have an answer if I really could last 6 hours under 61, I signed up for the channel this February for a September 2021 slot, knowing that if I didn't do that at that time, I would not be able to swim the channel in 2021. I insisted to do it in September because the temperature would be around 65 at that time which I would not have a problem as long as I have the endurance. I hope that the next winter will be cold enough for me to do the qualification requirement.

The coldest water I've swum in was 41 but I was inexperienced that time and didn't know I shouldn't go to a sauna afterwards. I swam 5 days in 41-45 on a trip last year, for 10 - 30 minutes. It really made me feel cold but it might be because I didn't have any acclimation at that time. I was (and now am) at 5'9" and 150, and hope that I can bring down my weight to 137 as I want to add bike and resume run to my training regime, probably run a marathon (which I hoped to do it this year but cancelled due to COVID) and also a full triathlon.
Last edited by: miklcct: Jul 3, 20 22:45
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [monty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
monty wrote:
All Right, Zombie thread from 7 years ago, let's hit it hard!!!

haha I thought the same thing.

Things are really slow here

Rhymenocerus wrote:
I think everyone should consult ST before they do anything.
Quote Reply
Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You asked for tips. I’ve coached a lot of athletes through marathon and ultra-marathon swims. If you want to be as successful as possible with the least amount of injury, get in the weight room. And your reply kind of proved my point on the triathlete mentality and why you should leave it in triathlon. There’s a big difference between a good athlete and a good coach. If you are that worried about your technique slowing you down then you probably need to spend some more time in practice building up your strength and conditioning in the water and your technique. Those two things can’t be separated out from one another.

Tim

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
Quote Reply
Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
He did. He was one of the first world champs when Fina started to have open water world championships.

I feel sorry for all these kids with this being an Olympic Year. One of the kids I used to work with, she’s top ten in the US for distance swimming and at Michigan now, wasn’t in the water for 2 months. She told me that was the longest she had been out of the water since she was 10. It’s probably not a bad thing but she was prepping for her first NCAA Champs and Olympic Trials.

You know how Olympic trials can go - can you deliver on that day.

Even the Olympics for 2021, as we move along, are looking doubtful.

Tim

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
Quote Reply
Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
SnappingT wrote:
You asked for tips. I’ve coached a lot of athletes through marathon and ultra-marathon swims. If you want to be as successful as possible with the least amount of injury, get in the weight room. And your reply kind of proved my point on the triathlete mentality and why you should leave it in triathlon. There’s a big difference between a good athlete and a good coach. If you are that worried about your technique slowing you down then you probably need to spend some more time in practice building up your strength and conditioning in the water and your technique. Those two things can’t be separated out from one another.

Tim

Hi Tim, any advice on S&C programs for swimming (for triathlon, 70.3 and 140.6).
I am not too bad all things considered pace wise for an older age grouper, CSS around 1:27/100 LCM, but I do wonder what a good S&C program could do for me.
Thanks.
Quote Reply
Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [Amnesia] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It could do a lot for you - prevent injuries, allow you to train less and go faster, experience less fatigue at the end of a race and a good program will make you feel more connected through your movements. Without seeing your stroke or knowing your swim training, you could probably find another 5-7 seconds/100 with a well implemented S&C program.

Volt Athletics program is decent and inexpensive. They have options for swimming or triathlon programs. If you have any other questions, please let me know.

Tim

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
Quote Reply
Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
miklcct,I have a soft spot for you because you are an enthusiastic young guy full of dreams and you are from Hong Kong,which is where I was born and learned to swim BUT seriously,the biggest thing that is holding you back is not realising how little you understand about long triathlons and long distance open water swimming.

Read what SnappingT has written and take his advice.....oh and watch this video of Aussie Ultra legend John van Wisse and his Enduroman Arc to Arch event. He is an old school hard man if ever there was one.(Weighed about 92kg when he did this event)

https://vimeo.com/113491266
Last edited by: ThailandUltras: Jul 4, 20 4:43
Quote Reply
Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
miklcct wrote:
SnappingT wrote:
Get an experienced, qualified coach
Get in the weight room
Gradually build up your volume
Plan on a 12 - 18 month training cycle depending on your background
Don’t bring a triathlon mentality to open water swimming
You don’t need to swim as much as some of the marathon swimmers will tell you.
Enjoy and have fun. Less than 2,000 people have successfully completed it since Captain Webb.

Tim


What's the use of getting in the weight room? I HATE strength / weight training and no one in the world can make me to do it! And why don't bring a triathlon mentality? I have just found another coach to help my swim technique as my previous one didn't work (couldn't make me faster), and he's a national triathlete.


IntenseOne wrote:
While most channel swimmers do indeed carry a bit of excess body fat, it is not always the case. Look up Jim McConica. He is relatively skinny, definitely not fat, and he has done the channel swim from Catalina many times, often in low 50 degree temperatures. He frequently does training swims, completely solo swimming several miles out to an oil rig, and then back. And if you want a definition of bad ass, for a few years in his early 50’s he would swim 30,000 (minimum) meters a day, every day, for the entire month of February! Some ow, some pool- typical pool swim was Sunday’s when he would swim 300 x 100 METERS long course, on a 1:15 interval! In his 50’s. How many triathletes could do that?
Anyway, the point is you do not have to be fat to acclimate- but to an earlier post, it takes a lot longer than 4 days!
And there are all kinds of bad ass people doing bad ass things without seeking attention!


That's bad ass!

ericmulk wrote:

That's exactly what I've always thought, i.e. that the water temp would be the toughest thing to handle unless I gained around 30 lbs or so. I think a lot of good tri swimmers could do the EC if they were allowed to use a full wetsuit. I swam 4 days in 57-58 degree water a few years ago w/o a wetsuit, and even on the 4th day I still felt damn cold after just 30 min. Don't know how along cold water adaptation takes but must be more than 4 days, and/or I'm just too thin, at 6'2" and 175, to adapt to 58 water.


I planned to do the acclimation earlier this year then signed up for the channel. My plan was that, if I could last 6 hours in 61 or less (i.e. the qualification requirement of CSPF), I would signed up for a slot. However unfortunately that the winter was warm and the sea never reached my target temperature. The coldest was about 64 this year. When I did my longest race which took me more than 5 years, the temperature was about 68 which was far too warm. The pool I use reached 61 for a few days, I time trialed my 1500 m on the coldest day and it was more than 2 minutes faster than a few months ago. However as I swam before work on those days the longest I did was only 2 hours because I had to go to work afterwards.

Despite I couldn't have an answer if I really could last 6 hours under 61, I signed up for the channel this February for a September 2021 slot, knowing that if I didn't do that at that time, I would not be able to swim the channel in 2021. I insisted to do it in September because the temperature would be around 65 at that time which I would not have a problem as long as I have the endurance. I hope that the next winter will be cold enough for me to do the qualification requirement.

The coldest water I've swum in was 41 but I was inexperienced that time and didn't know I shouldn't go to a sauna afterwards. I swam 5 days in 41-45 on a trip last year, for 10 - 30 minutes. It really made me feel cold but it might be because I didn't have any acclimation at that time. I was (and now am) at 5'9" and 150, and hope that I can bring down my weight to 137 as I want to add bike and resume run to my training regime, probably run a marathon (which I hoped to do it this year but cancelled due to COVID) and also a full triathlon.

This is a general question for this thread and maybe it was discussed 7 years ago, but now that swimming wetsuits exist, why don't they just open up a wetsuit category. It won't cheapen the old school category, but would open up the "event" to a lot more smaller and lean athletes who otherwise are on the limit. If you get to 5'9" and 137, I bet you DNF just because you can't possibly generate and keep enough heat around your organs.

I did a 12km Lake crossing swim last summer and it was borderline Ironman wetsuit legal temp. One of the women from my club who beats me by 1.5 min during the 1500 free in masters swimming went with no wetuit. She should have beaten me by around 10 minutes if both of us had no wetsuit. I chose to wear one for warmth because my intensity was going to be way lower on a 12km swim than a 1500m and I would just lose heat to the lake going at tourist marathon pace. I ended up beating her by over 35 minutes. I should have just beaten her by around 10 min (if you take wetsuit into account for 10% speed). But she got hypothermic half way through. She was borderline medical but as soon as she got on land with air temp at 30C and warm food she stabilized. She was barely 5'2" 120 lbs. I am 5'6", 140 lbs. I made the right call, because I have a lot less body fat.

I think Global Swim Series has it "right" with wetsuit and no wetsuit options.

Dev
Quote Reply
Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ThailandUltras wrote:
miklcct,I have a soft spot for you because you are an enthusiastic young guy full of dreams and you are from Hong Kong,which is where I was born and learned to swim BUT seriously,the biggest thing that is holding you back is not realising how little you understand about long triathlons and long distance open water swimming.

Read what SnappingT has written and take his advice.....oh and watch this video of Aussie Ultra legend John van Wisse and his Enduroman Arc to Arch event. He is an old school hard man if ever there was one.(Weighed about 92kg when he did this event)

https://vimeo.com/113491266

I have two dream swims - one is round Hong Kong, one is the English Channel. In the perfect situation I should do the round HK swim February / March in the same year before I do the Channel as a "test run in my comfort zone". However due to cost reason (it is too expensive - 2 times the cost of doing the Channel) I have decided to skip the HK swim unless Hong Kong is liberated.

And I still don't understand what's wrong with my "triathlete mentality" as from the very beginning I train in the a triathlon club and train both swim and run. Also the two Channel swimmers I know currently living in the city also train in the triathlon club I trained with as well.

devashish_paul wrote:
This is a general question for this thread and maybe it was discussed 7 years ago, but now that swimming wetsuits exist, why don't they just open up a wetsuit category. It won't cheapen the old school category, but would open up the "event" to a lot more smaller and lean athletes who otherwise are on the limit. If you get to 5'9" and 137, I bet you DNF just because you can't possibly generate and keep enough heat around your organs.

I did a 12km Lake crossing swim last summer and it was borderline Ironman wetsuit legal temp. One of the women from my club who beats me by 1.5 min during the 1500 free in masters swimming went with no wetuit. She should have beaten me by around 10 minutes if both of us had no wetsuit. I chose to wear one for warmth because my intensity was going to be way lower on a 12km swim than a 1500m and I would just lose heat to the lake going at tourist marathon pace. I ended up beating her by over 35 minutes. I should have just beaten her by around 10 min (if you take wetsuit into account for 10% speed). But she got hypothermic half way through. She was borderline medical but as soon as she got on land with air temp at 30C and warm food she stabilized. She was barely 5'2" 120 lbs. I am 5'6", 140 lbs. I made the right call, because I have a lot less body fat.

I think Global Swim Series has it "right" with wetsuit and no wetsuit options.

Dev
Gibraltar has traditional and neoprene categories. There is one Hongkonger done the neoprene category but none in the traditional category yet. It is one of the channel in my secondary bucket list (my primary bucket contains the English Channel and round Hong Kong), however I am not fast enough to qualify for it (it requires 3 km/h for 4 hours for a single crossing).

I also did a lake crossing of similar distance last year and the water temperature was 20 - 22°C. I went for the skin category and it became my first marathon swim. I really enjoyed it and continued to do marathon swimming afterwards. However, now in summer I basically have stopped most of my training because I just can't tolerate the heat to do any structured programme so I have decided not training in the squad anymore, and wait until November to return when the temperature goes under 24°C. If I get to 5'9" and 137 I will train at a higher intensity than last year as well. I want to get myself to the slimiest I can get in order to get the speed up such that I can complete the crossing as fast as possible. I will get my feeling in the coming winter to decide.

Also can anyone suggest how I can lose weight, considering I can't train anything high intensity because it is too hot in the summer? My weight hasn't gone down in the preceding few months. 137 was my weight when I graduated from uni but after a year of unhealthy lifestyle afterwards it went up to 156, with significant deterioration in my aquathon performance as well, and I could never get rid of all those extra weight since then despite adding heavy swim training (averaging about 15 km / week over a whole year) afterwards.
Quote Reply
Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
AlwaysCurious wrote:
BDoughtie wrote:
In the same light, we should actually call every triathlon "draft legal" because even at the legal "non draft" distance, your "drafting" right?

Kinda similar idea would be my bet. There is some sorta "agreement" among a group and her swim wasnt following that agreement, thus wanting the clarification is my guess.


That's a good analogy, but I'd argue that if a cyclist really wants to see how fast he can ride 40k, he enters a time trial because there's little chance of drafting.

There's no similar category in OWS. The EC folks consider their swims the equivalent of a time trial, when in fact they're the equivalent of IMAZ.

Can you draft in Grand Tour TTs? I'm thinking of the times when the best TTers will sometimes pass the person who started before them.
Quote Reply
Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
miklcct wrote:
ThailandUltras wrote:
miklcct,I have a soft spot for you because you are an enthusiastic young guy full of dreams and you are from Hong Kong,which is where I was born and learned to swim BUT seriously,the biggest thing that is holding you back is not realising how little you understand about long triathlons and long distance open water swimming.

Read what SnappingT has written and take his advice.....oh and watch this video of Aussie Ultra legend John van Wisse and his Enduroman Arc to Arch event. He is an old school hard man if ever there was one.(Weighed about 92kg when he did this event)

https://vimeo.com/113491266


I have two dream swims - one is round Hong Kong, one is the English Channel. In the perfect situation I should do the round HK swim February / March in the same year before I do the Channel as a "test run in my comfort zone". However due to cost reason (it is too expensive - 2 times the cost of doing the Channel) I have decided to skip the HK swim unless Hong Kong is liberated.

And I still don't understand what's wrong with my "triathlete mentality" as from the very beginning I train in the a triathlon club and train both swim and run. Also the two Channel swimmers I know currently living in the city also train in the triathlon club I trained with as well.

devashish_paul wrote:

This is a general question for this thread and maybe it was discussed 7 years ago, but now that swimming wetsuits exist, why don't they just open up a wetsuit category. It won't cheapen the old school category, but would open up the "event" to a lot more smaller and lean athletes who otherwise are on the limit. If you get to 5'9" and 137, I bet you DNF just because you can't possibly generate and keep enough heat around your organs.

I did a 12km Lake crossing swim last summer and it was borderline Ironman wetsuit legal temp. One of the women from my club who beats me by 1.5 min during the 1500 free in masters swimming went with no wetuit. She should have beaten me by around 10 minutes if both of us had no wetsuit. I chose to wear one for warmth because my intensity was going to be way lower on a 12km swim than a 1500m and I would just lose heat to the lake going at tourist marathon pace. I ended up beating her by over 35 minutes. I should have just beaten her by around 10 min (if you take wetsuit into account for 10% speed). But she got hypothermic half way through. She was borderline medical but as soon as she got on land with air temp at 30C and warm food she stabilized. She was barely 5'2" 120 lbs. I am 5'6", 140 lbs. I made the right call, because I have a lot less body fat.

I think Global Swim Series has it "right" with wetsuit and no wetsuit options.

Dev

Gibraltar has traditional and neoprene categories. There is one Hongkonger done the neoprene category but none in the traditional category yet. It is one of the channel in my secondary bucket list (my primary bucket contains the English Channel and round Hong Kong), however I am not fast enough to qualify for it (it requires 3 km/h for 4 hours for a single crossing).

I also did a lake crossing of similar distance last year and the water temperature was 20 - 22°C. I went for the skin category and it became my first marathon swim. I really enjoyed it and continued to do marathon swimming afterwards. However, now in summer I basically have stopped most of my training because I just can't tolerate the heat to do any structured programme so I have decided not training in the squad anymore, and wait until November to return when the temperature goes under 24°C. If I get to 5'9" and 137 I will train at a higher intensity than last year as well. I want to get myself to the slimiest I can get in order to get the speed up such that I can complete the crossing as fast as possible. I will get my feeling in the coming winter to decide.

Also can anyone suggest how I can lose weight, considering I can't train anything high intensity because it is too hot in the summer? My weight hasn't gone down in the preceding few months. 137 was my weight when I graduated from uni but after a year of unhealthy lifestyle afterwards it went up to 156, with significant deterioration in my aquathon performance as well, and I could never get rid of all those extra weight since then despite adding heavy swim training (averaging about 15 km / week over a whole year) afterwards.

Like anything that involves endurance, for the same heart and lungs and cardio system, feeding less mass with the same oxygen is better....but in swimming you have this buoyancy trade off, where more fat floats you better, meaning you have less drag in the water. So YES you have to feed more mass with the same fixed cardio systems, but because you're floating better you have less drag if you are fatter. And that's just in pool temperatures. Now if you drop the water temp a lot, you have the entire heat loss thing that comes into play. I don't think getting to 137 lbs at 5'9" will help you for the channel swim, but it will help you if you run an open marathon where weight means you have to do more work at the same pace with the same cardio system AND you have a big cooling penalty for running. Its why Eliud Kipchoge is 5'8" and 115 lbs . He would need to gain 50 lbs of fat to get into the right body composition if you knew how to swim to do a channel crossing.

I THINK think Jan Frodeno would not be able to finish a channel crossing swim even though he is an excellent swimmer. I THINK he would just DNF from hypothermia. Having said that if he set out at channel crossing world record pace which is around 5 kph, he just MIGHT generate enough heat to stay warm enough for 7 hrs. That's why I THINK he would DNF. My guess is his body composition relative to his pace is right on the border line. Only way Jan finishes it is he keeps the pace super high and generates enough heat to net get hypothermic...he's otherwise too lean.

Otherwise its a simple thermodynamic equation. You lose X joules of heat from your body per second, so you need to generate almost 100% of X joules internally in heat (80% of your energy goes into generating heat, 20% into mechanical work....X = your heat generation). The slower you swim, the more mass you need to survive. The faster you swim, you can have less BMI of which less can be pure fat.

This is why neoprene allows low body mass athletes with low % fat to still do cold water racing. Its really just physics. I don't think its wise to be super lean and go into long distance cold racing. Too much risk. There is not that much you can do to defeat physics and thermodynamics other than work with those aspects of science. We can't will ourselve against science hoping our bodies can adapt. They can, but only a bit.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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There's a limited number of boats with an experienced captain & the required observers etc. Also, weather & water conditions aren't guaranteed, so attempts are regularly postponed. With the Channel being so busy with commercial traffic, trying to add in wetsuit swimmers wouldn't go down well, even before C19 struck.

Also it must be noted that jelly fish & the tide flows can easily scupper the crossing attempts of even the best prepared.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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There’s a number of reasons. The first being it’s tradition. Second is the Channel Crossing committee and the open water swim community aren’t interested in making it easier. Everyone can train up to do a cold water swim and that’s part of what it takes to swim across the English Channel. They aren’t trying to sell more entries and widen the potential demographic and maybe not everyone can rise to this challenge and that’s ok too. It makes it that much sweeter and worthwhile for those that do. If you train right for cold water swimming, your body will adapt and it will stimulate the recruitment of “brown fat” around those organs. And that’s why there aren’t any wetsuits for the English Channel and never will be or for any legs of the Triple Crown. The community wants it to remain an accomplishment.

Tim

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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I did not realize that the supply or entries to channel crossing is limited, so they don't want to open it up to everyone who puts on neoprene and gives it a go (and dumbs it down) even though it might open it up to different body types. For comparison the Berlin marathon is open to all body types, but only guys with BMI like Kipchoge have a chance to compete for the win. But the channel is not like the roads around Berlin so I see why its more limited access. Originally I thought anyone can just show up, swim across and record that they did it with some witnesses mechanism and criteria.

Now I see there is more of an organization structure around it:

https://www.channelswimmingassociation.com/faq

First, you must register your swim with the CSA and book one of our recognized Escort Pilots. Make sure that your swim costume is compliant with CSA rules. Make sure that you are at least 16 years old at the commencement of the solo swim. As soon as the CSA is informed by your pilot of your swim time, we will appoint an Observer to watch over your swim.
After your Swim, the CSA Official Observer will send his report to the CSA Observer Liaison Officer. He will present the report together with the swim co-ordinates, plotting the progression of the Swim - for an independent scrutiny by members of the Committee at a Ratification Meeting. Your Swim will then be ratified and entered into the Official Record Books. In due course it will be added to the next reprint of the Handbook.

It seems like the ultimate distanced event. Perfect for Covid19. Would be interesting to see what some pro swimmers like Mellouli could do.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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Yes. It has been attempted.

https://www.nwitimes.com/...94-a81b4a7cefbb.html

"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5
Last edited by: boobooaboo: Jul 5, 20 12:59
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [burnman] [ In reply to ]
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burnman wrote:
texafornia wrote:
No boat, no goggles, no suit, no navigation, carry your own food. Cross a body of water like that. That'd be rad.


Outside food would be assistance. Instead, you must catch and kill your own food en route.

this sounds like a "climbing is aid" forum argument

"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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All the legs of the Triple Crown (all have limited spots to complete for a variety of reasons) and any of the big, solo ultra-marathon swims follow a similar mechanism for the swim to be recognized by the open water community. It's tradition from Captain Webbs first attempt and then rules that have been agreed upon over the years.

But anyone could work to become acclimated for a cold water swim and the English Channel is usually low 60s to upper 50s. Some might have to work harder, but any one can do the work to adapt.

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [boobooaboo] [ In reply to ]
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Yes. It has been attempted.

https://www.nwitimes.com/...94-a81b4a7cefbb.html //


18 miles in 15 hours in a lake, that has to be one hell of a wind current, or one slow dude. One would think if someone was ready to do 120 miles, they would be in the 2+ mph range at the very least. But I don't really know that lake and conditions, but seems like you wouldnt start the swim unless it was pretty good to begin with..
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT wrote:
All the legs of the Triple Crown (all have limited spots to complete for a variety of reasons) and any of the big, solo ultra-marathon swims follow a similar mechanism for the swim to be recognized by the open water community. It's tradition from Captain Webbs first attempt and then rules that have been agreed upon over the years.


But anyone could work to become acclimated for a cold water swim and the English Channel is usually low 60s to upper 50s. Some might have to work harder, but any one can do the work to adapt.


If you have time you can watch the following documentary, which describe an ordinary woman from Iceland, SigrĂşn ĂžuriĂ°ur GeirsdĂłttir, swimming the English Channel in 2015:




She was never talented in any sports, and she always comes last in races. She only learnt swimming 3 years before. Yet she determined to cross the channel in about 22 and a half hours in her first attempt, becoming the 2nd person from Iceland to conquer it.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
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Now the channel swimming season has started. I feel pressure watching the tracks thinking that I will be in the water next year.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [jgp] [ In reply to ]
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jgp wrote:
and why no one does the latter."


Otto Kemmerich did the latter.
Last edited by: miklcct: Aug 31, 20 23:23
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
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There was an unassisted Channel swim (as suggested by some of the original posts in this thread back in 2013) attempt reported in the UK news this weekend, after 12 hours he was fished out by the RNLI - only 500m off the Dover coast where he started 8 hours previously.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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"And then Reinhold Messner climbed it solo and without oxygen, shattering the traditional norms in mountaineering."

Actually when he first climbed it without oxygen he did so with Peter Habeler, he soloed it without oxygen 2 years later.
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [The_Exile] [ In reply to ]
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The_Exile wrote:
There was an unassisted Channel swim (as suggested by some of the original posts in this thread back in 2013) attempt reported in the UK news this weekend, after 12 hours he was fished out by the RNLI - only 500m off the Dover coast where he started 8 hours previously.

You beat me to that!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/...ngland-kent-53980060
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [BobAjobb] [ In reply to ]
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I may have beaten you to it - but in my rush I said he was in the water for both 12 hours instead of 8!
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Re: Why do English Channel swimmers consider their swim "unassisted"? [rosshm] [ In reply to ]
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rosshm wrote:
AlwaysCurious wrote:
BDoughtie wrote:
In the same light, we should actually call every triathlon "draft legal" because even at the legal "non draft" distance, your "drafting" right?

Kinda similar idea would be my bet. There is some sorta "agreement" among a group and her swim wasnt following that agreement, thus wanting the clarification is my guess.


That's a good analogy, but I'd argue that if a cyclist really wants to see how fast he can ride 40k, he enters a time trial because there's little chance of drafting.

There's no similar category in OWS. The EC folks consider their swims the equivalent of a time trial, when in fact they're the equivalent of IMAZ.


Can you draft in Grand Tour TTs? I'm thinking of the times when the best TTers will sometimes pass the person who started before them.

No, you can be penalized for drafting during a any UCI TT
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