It's a curious result. What if they did the intensity in the first year, and the volume the second year, would the results be the same? What if there was a control group doing the opposite kind of focus, would the improvements be different?
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Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [el fuser]
[ In reply to ]
Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [Aztec]
[ In reply to ]
-The article has nothing to do with the most effective way to go from a 7:30/mile guy to a 5:30/mile guy.
-These guys are also already running ~50 miles per week.
-Many AG triathletes advocate doing their speekwork/interval work week in week out for many months at a time. This study only did 4 weeks of interval work.
-4 Weeks of increased volume is not nearly enough time. Perhaps you should read Gordo's article on "elite base". The foundation/base we develop today will help us 18-30 months from now.
-These guys are also already running ~50 miles per week.
-Many AG triathletes advocate doing their speekwork/interval work week in week out for many months at a time. This study only did 4 weeks of interval work.
-4 Weeks of increased volume is not nearly enough time. Perhaps you should read Gordo's article on "elite base". The foundation/base we develop today will help us 18-30 months from now.
Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [Flanagan]
[ In reply to ]
All good points, as is Paulo's above (re: the results).
I generally like what I read from Gordo, but I recall that he made his largest gains only after a period of unusual intensity (for him). Of course, he credits that gain to the 'base' work he had done before. That muddies up his experience.
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Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [Aztec]
[ In reply to ]
Quote:
Now here's a question for you. Why does so much of the triathlete / running community insist on remaining so damn ignorant despite the boundless amounts of information that one can find in book stores and the internet?
-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [Flanagan]
[ In reply to ]
Why, Flanagan, you make those swim practices sound so easy! :-)
Dick Jochums of SCSC fame didn't much care for the volume approach (at least relative to other swim coaches!). And his swimmers generally did pretty well.
I'm not saying that's the only way to go -- not even close (as shown by Jochums' having blown up other swimmers) -- but rather to show that there is more than one opinion on this matter, and that opposing opinions have been just as successful.
BTW, chalk me up as preferring the Z1/2 run to the track work! I've not touched the track since high school!
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Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.
Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.
Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [Aztec]
[ In reply to ]
I would submit that it isn't muddy at all, and I doubt that the size of the gains that he made after that "period of unusual intensity" would have been nearly so large if they hadn't happened after several years of huge volume.
Like Flanagan pointed out...the flaw in those studies that were cited is that they only accounted for short term volume. Give me only 4 weeks with someone and I'll pick intensity to "win" the study in nearly every case. Give me 6 months or a year...I'll take the volume and frequency approach.
Bottom line is that the dude doing 20mpw doesn't need to inject intensity to get to 5:30 miles...ain't gonna happen. More volume. More frequency. I just don't get what is so hard to understand about that...except that it is the harder, longer term solution to getting faster...everyone wants to Cliff's Notes their way to speed.
Like Flanagan pointed out...the flaw in those studies that were cited is that they only accounted for short term volume. Give me only 4 weeks with someone and I'll pick intensity to "win" the study in nearly every case. Give me 6 months or a year...I'll take the volume and frequency approach.
Bottom line is that the dude doing 20mpw doesn't need to inject intensity to get to 5:30 miles...ain't gonna happen. More volume. More frequency. I just don't get what is so hard to understand about that...except that it is the harder, longer term solution to getting faster...everyone wants to Cliff's Notes their way to speed.
Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [TriBriGuy]
[ In reply to ]
I just don't get what is so hard to understand about that...except that it is the harder, longer term solution to getting faster...everyone wants to Cliff's Notes their way to speed.
Well, that's just a bunch of bullshit. High intensity is the easy way out? Please.
Well, that's just a bunch of bullshit. High intensity is the easy way out? Please.
Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [BarryP]
[ In reply to ]
Daniel's programs have a lot of interval work. I haven't read your book, but should we chalk Daniel's up as being ignorant?
Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [BarryP]
[ In reply to ]
Every reputable coach does NOT subscribe to the same belief. A local coach here (AG winner in multiple IMs, overall winner now and then) prescribes 800m TRACK repeats to his athletes. I'm not saying that's smart, just that not all coaches buy into what you describe.
So why the ignorance? A poster came up with some contrary evidence easily. Poof, there's enough confusion and then disbelief, even if there's an unequal amount/weight of information.
**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.
Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.
Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [TriBriGuy]
[ In reply to ]
Yes, that's exactly the argument Gordo made (assuming I am recalling correctly) and I figured that you would. Hey, that's cool. And it *might* be right.
This *isn't* so hard to understand. Remember, I said that "more" made sense, and that our disagreement is that you, Paulo, DoubleD, etc., said "even more." I say try "more" first for awhile. No one knows what number it takes for him to get what he needs. Well, OK, I'm also saying that some faster work -- i.e., race pace at times other than just race day -- makes sense.
**************
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Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.
Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [el fuser]
[ In reply to ]
I never said the damn workouts were easy.
The difficulty is in actually taking the time to invest in the volume and frequency approach. Too easy to take the 80% solution and get faster sooner. Too bad that's short-sighted.
The difficulty is in actually taking the time to invest in the volume and frequency approach. Too easy to take the 80% solution and get faster sooner. Too bad that's short-sighted.
Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [el fuser]
[ In reply to ]
Quote:
Daniel's programs have a lot of interval work. I haven't read your book, but should we chalk Daniel's up as being ignorant?GOOD FREAKIN' LORD!!!!! Go home and read his book again!!!!!! Daniels says almost EXACTLY what Brian Stover posted a few pages back. His program does NOT have a lot of interval work when you compare them to the standard ST 40 - 50 weeks a year of intervals. His programs advocate BUILDING A LARGE BASE FIRST, then going into a prep period with 5% of your total weekly mileage done at mile pace with pleanty of recovery in between, then going into an LT period, then followed by a V02max period of roughly 8 weeks!
Now I challenge you to find anywhere in his book where he advocates running 20 mpw with a session of 400's or 800's every week throughout your career. Please refer me to the page number so that I might double check it.
(bangs head against wall!)
-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [BarryP]
[ In reply to ]
Maybe you ought to read his book? It's one of those numerous sources you say recommend the same high volume approach.
5k program:
1st 6 weeks - easy training at E pace to build base.
Last 24 weeks - 90% interval work at R/I/T paces.
Nowhere is this like the program Stover mentioned (Aerobic running (aka more miles more often). Threshold/tempo at appropiate times almost year round).
What a complete strawman argument:
Now I challenge you to find anywhere in his book where he advocates running 20 mpw with a session of 400's or 800's every week throughout your career. Please refer me to the page number so that I might double check it.
Re: volume versus intensity : the results are in [el fuser]
[ In reply to ]
Thank you for citing these sources. I think the research is pretty sound but the conclusions that were drawn (whether by the researchers or by the author of the article) are completely misleading.
So, they take some subjects, have them run consistent mileage over a long period of time (this was the kind of shape they came in with) and then increased intensity for 4 to 8 weeks (depending on the article) and they got faster. Gee, imagine that. See if this rings a bell:
Aerobic running (aka more miles more often). Threshold/tempo at appropiate times almost year round. Speed work (which should probably be defined as sharpening work so as not to confuse, or maybe confuse more, done for 4-6 weeks at specific times of the year for specific reasons. Consistency day after day after day after day, after week after week after week, after month after month after month after year after year after year.
-Brian StoverA more appropriate experiment would be to have one group do high intensity for 2 years straight and have the other group do aerobic conditioning for 4 months, high intenstiy for 2 months, and repeat 3 more times. Then, instead of measuring the number of mitochondria, they should actualy see which group runs faster.
-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
So, they take some subjects, have them run consistent mileage over a long period of time (this was the kind of shape they came in with) and then increased intensity for 4 to 8 weeks (depending on the article) and they got faster. Gee, imagine that. See if this rings a bell:
Quote:
Aerobic running (aka more miles more often). Threshold/tempo at appropiate times almost year round. Speed work (which should probably be defined as sharpening work so as not to confuse, or maybe confuse more, done for 4-6 weeks at specific times of the year for specific reasons. Consistency day after day after day after day, after week after week after week, after month after month after month after year after year after year.
-Brian Stover
-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [el fuser]
[ In reply to ]
Maybe you ought to read his book? It's one of those numerous sources you say recommend the same high volume approach.
5k program:
1st 6 weeks - easy training at E pace to build base.
Last 24 weeks - 90% interval work at R/I/T paces.
Nowhere is this like the program Stover mentioned (Aerobic running (aka more miles more often). Threshold/tempo at appropiate times almost year round).
***********************
I don't have my book with me. You are actualy going to make me go to borders and read through it, aren't you. (sigh). 90% interval work for 24 weeks? Really?
..............................to be continued (grrrrrrrrr).
-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
5k program:
1st 6 weeks - easy training at E pace to build base.
Last 24 weeks - 90% interval work at R/I/T paces.
Nowhere is this like the program Stover mentioned (Aerobic running (aka more miles more often). Threshold/tempo at appropiate times almost year round).
***********************
I don't have my book with me. You are actualy going to make me go to borders and read through it, aren't you. (sigh). 90% interval work for 24 weeks? Really?
..............................to be continued (grrrrrrrrr).
-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [el fuser]
[ In reply to ]
Daniels, like any good coach, prescribes intervals in the right times and places. "Intervals" is not the opposite side of the coin as "easy distance." He puts a cap on the amount of running you can do at the interval paces as a percentage of your total mileage for the week (No more than 5k or 5% at R/mile pace and no more than 8% or 10k at I/5k pace). It is all about the residual effects of these sessions and how they relate within the context of the whole program (mileage, threshold, etc.). All the elements need to be there.
You can do plenty of intervals if you have the base to support it. In fact, you should do plenty of intervals if you want to meet your potential, but you need the grunt work first (base, threshold, hills). Guys like Shorter and Rodgers did some very hefty interval sessions in their day despite being most noted for their high volumes of mileage (150+ mpw at times). Why could they get away with it? Because a session of 16 x 400m barely puts a dent in their total mileage. Some AG tri person who runs 20mpw is putting 20% of his mileage in that one track session.
Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [BarryP]
[ In reply to ]
Maybe not 90%... but IIRC 3 quality days (intervals), 3 easy days, and one long day. I'm referring to the 5k program specifically.
Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [bigskyTi]
[ In reply to ]
This guy is getting a lots of info over here and that is helpful if you want to run like a PRO, and who doesn't? I was asking something similar not too long ago about going from a damn 7:13 PB at a 10k race to a 6:45 pace and some agreed that it this can easiily be done in in a few weeks of good training. I did not get 1% of the feed back already posted here, but anyways to the point. Who is currently running that 5:30 pace out of all this group giving feed back? Or has even done it within the last tri season or so. I don't get it.
Latintriathlete
Latintriathlete
Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [Latintriathlete]
[ In reply to ]
Well...I ran a 26:00 first 8k and 27:13 last 8k at PM NC this year (DQ due to course snafu, see 180th place). I ran 16:51 for the first 5k at VaDu as well (DNF on bike due to mechanical, so no result posted). I also ran 15:12 and 15:20 3-mile physical fitness tests recently.
So I'm pretty much in that ballpark, as are several others on this thread that I know about... I try to average ~40mpw most of the year...with blocks of 50+ when appropriate.
So I'm pretty much in that ballpark, as are several others on this thread that I know about... I try to average ~40mpw most of the year...with blocks of 50+ when appropriate.
Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [BarryP]
[ In reply to ]
[reply]Maybe you ought to read his book? It's one of those numerous sources you say recommend the same high volume approach.
5k program:
1st 6 weeks - easy training at E pace to build base.
Last 24 weeks - 90% interval work at R/I/T paces.
Nowhere is this like the program Stover mentioned ([i]Aerobic running (aka more miles more often). Threshold/tempo at appropiate times almost year round[/i]).
*********************** end el fuser's ramblings **
BarryP said: "90% interval work for 24 weeks? Really?" [/reply]
no, BS. I don't have my book with me either, but a review says:
http://running.syr.edu/column/19990913.html
"The book concludes with a four-phase program, six weeks per phase, for a total of 24 weeks. Phase 1 consists of E-type easy running, focusing on foundation work and injury prevention. Phase 2 continues to increase mileage and estimates VDOT with a T-type race. Phase 3 is the hardest part of the program, introducing I-type interval training and R-type racing to determine the current VDOT. Finally, Phase 4 highlights adequate rest and recovery, a drop in total mileage, and sharpening towards a target race."
so, one (1) 6-week phase with speedwork, the rest geared towards high volume and lower intensity. Exactly what Brian, Paulo, BarryP, and I would recommend..
Really the answer to all these discussions is a three-step program:
1. buy Daniels' Running Formula and Noakes' Lore of Running
2. read and understand
3. practise
the rest is mere anecdote.
"It is a good feeling for old men who have begun to fear failure, any sort of failure, to set a schedule for exercise and stick to it. If an aging man can run a distance of three miles, for instance, he knows that whatever his other failures may be, he is not completely wasted away." Romain Gary, SI interview
5k program:
1st 6 weeks - easy training at E pace to build base.
Last 24 weeks - 90% interval work at R/I/T paces.
Nowhere is this like the program Stover mentioned ([i]Aerobic running (aka more miles more often). Threshold/tempo at appropiate times almost year round[/i]).
*********************** end el fuser's ramblings **
BarryP said: "90% interval work for 24 weeks? Really?" [/reply]
no, BS. I don't have my book with me either, but a review says:
http://running.syr.edu/column/19990913.html
"The book concludes with a four-phase program, six weeks per phase, for a total of 24 weeks. Phase 1 consists of E-type easy running, focusing on foundation work and injury prevention. Phase 2 continues to increase mileage and estimates VDOT with a T-type race. Phase 3 is the hardest part of the program, introducing I-type interval training and R-type racing to determine the current VDOT. Finally, Phase 4 highlights adequate rest and recovery, a drop in total mileage, and sharpening towards a target race."
so, one (1) 6-week phase with speedwork, the rest geared towards high volume and lower intensity. Exactly what Brian, Paulo, BarryP, and I would recommend..
Really the answer to all these discussions is a three-step program:
1. buy Daniels' Running Formula and Noakes' Lore of Running
2. read and understand
3. practise
the rest is mere anecdote.
"It is a good feeling for old men who have begun to fear failure, any sort of failure, to set a schedule for exercise and stick to it. If an aging man can run a distance of three miles, for instance, he knows that whatever his other failures may be, he is not completely wasted away." Romain Gary, SI interview
Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [bigskyTi]
[ In reply to ]
"My buddy who is a former cross country runner with a 5:30 mile as his PB tells me that I need to start to do more speed work if I want to run with the fast movers in races. He recommends lots of 400 repeats on days when I am not trying to strech my distance out."
since when did we start listening to "cross-country" runners with stand-alone mile prs of 5:30? it sounds like he needs to hit the track and do some 400 repeats because those credentials are going to do very much after the 8th grade.
since when did we start listening to "cross-country" runners with stand-alone mile prs of 5:30? it sounds like he needs to hit the track and do some 400 repeats because those credentials are going to do very much after the 8th grade.
Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [doug in co]
[ In reply to ]
so, one (1) 6-week phase with speedwork, the rest geared towards high volume and lower intensity.
Hey doug,
Tell me how this sample week workout is low intensity (this is from the 8th week/phase II of the 5k program):
*3 easy runs
*10-12 x 400m R pace with 400m jogs
*3 x 2-mile at T pace with 2-min rests
*5-6 x 3-min hard I pace with 3 min recovery jogs
*1 long slow distance.
75% of the program has similar weeks, only the 6 wk. base is easy running.
What I see is SOME people espousing doing miles & miles of zone 2 to get faster. While that works, the science says intensity will work too. Maybe you need to go back to your #2 rule?
Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [el fuser]
[ In reply to ]
Damn you really are not listening are you? You should reread what has been written grasping the meanings of the posts, not just pulling out a snippet here and there. WTF? Pay attention. Go read Daniels while you are re-reading stuff. Daniels is advocating about 14-15% of total volume being fast running during that week, that is what is so freaking easy about it. Anyone with a properly designed program can do that and I'd wager that many do more intensity than that with their dumbass pull some of what worked for person A and person B plans that we read about so much on here training plans that they follow.
No shit intensity will work, we have never said that it would not. what we said is that doing Vo2max intervals over and over will work for a SHORT period of time then you will plateau and even regress. We said that intensity, and I am specifically refering to threshold runs and tempo runs should be the cornerstone of what you should be doing almost weekly and that Vo2 running has it's proper & specific place in a training plan. If you are going to look at just one week and espouse some BS, please read the freaking book and stop me from banging my head on the desk from reading unintelligent posts.
(No offense to anyone, but I'm just irritated at how many people can not grasp simple principles, it's not rocket science. or maybe it is judging from the posts ;-)
Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta
Last edited by:
desert dude: Jun 27, 06 18:36
Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [Latintriathlete]
[ In reply to ]
Quote:
Who is currently running that 5:30 pace out of all this group giving feed back? Or has even done it within the last tri season or so.-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Who said either guy would fall apart? What is half the volume? 40mpw, 50mpw? If you have run 30:00 for 10k you put in some 80+ weeks, guarenteed, b/c you probably came out of a good college program where the coach had you running lots of volume over the summer in prep for the XC season and lots of volume between XC and track. Or a good national team program. Go read Running with the Buffaloes. great book for learning how to run fast if you can read between the lines. See DouginCo's post for the rest of the reading list.
The whole failed reasoning with your post and the idea you are trying to get across is that you used the word sensible amount or tempo work etc and you failed to name a volume or avgerage volume. The key there is sensible. Not X# of 400's or 800's unless he was looking to sharpen his speed for a peak race.
Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta