Wow lots of advice here.

Just to narrow down the discussion, here are a few more facts to throw on the fire: I am 6'1.5" and currently tip the scales at between 176 and 180 lbs depending on the time of day, how hydrated I am, how good was my morning BM etc. Just by looking at myself in the mirror I know that 170-174 is more where I would like to be and would get my BF% to what I would consider lean. I don't think that I will ever see my weight drop below 170. (i was north of 210 lbs two years ago.)

I don't have a background in endurance sports. I swam as a pre-teen and Dove in High school which is where I get my skills in the water. i am pretty good on the bike for unknown reasons, and all of my running history comes from HS and college Lacrosse, and I only gave up the smokes and losts of unhealthy living when I started training a year and a half ago. (now I am mostly healthy but not totally)

I started to build run base in early January on the treadmill, slowly working from 2 mile runs to a standard run of 10K. Winter work included mileage weeks of up to 27 mi with a mix of indoor and outdoor work.



I think that if I follow the posts correctly, several things are obvious if I want to become more competitive on the run. I need to run more, as I am a good bit short fo the kind of miles it takes to be a good runner (although this seems a a little bit like the chicken and the egg). I need to vary my workouts and perhaps start to train more specifically for the distance at which I want to be successfull. I need to become more efficient at my workout time management. It might be pretty early i my career to be whining about being slow on the run, because it takes lots more time to become the kind of runner that turns 5:xx splits. Be happy, keep working, and add some milage to my weeks, and I will slowly but surely get faster over time.

Is that about right?

---

This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time. - Fight Club
Industry Brat.

I think that if I follow the posts correctly, several things are obvious if I want to become more competitive on the run. I need to run more, Yes, so far so good. as I am a good bit short fo the kind of miles it takes to be a good runner (although this seems a a little bit like the chicken and the egg). It is not chicken and egg. It is JF RUN - then do it some more. I need to vary my workouts and perhaps start to train more specifically for the distance at which I want to be successfull. I hope this does not include 400's or 800's, but you can and should do tempo / threshold runs I need to become more efficient at my workout time management. Don't we all, but yes you do. It might be pretty early i my career to be whining about being slow on the run, because it takes lots more time to become the kind of runner that turns 5:xx splits. Do what BarryP, Paulo and I advocated and then in a year if you still have not broken 5:30 find a different sport. Be happy, keep working, Yes to both. and add some milage to my weeks, You already said this, but reinforcing the idea is good. Now go back it up with a run today, tomorrow and the next day. and I will slowly but surely get faster over time. You will get faster, faster than if you go do 400's or 800's. And you might be surprised at what you see after 90 days of lots of running. When does your tri season end? If it is Sept, then take 2 weeks active recovery, then devote the rest of the year to a few swims, a few bikes and mainly running. Use from now to then to build up to 35-40mpw, then try to avg 50+ for 12 weeks. Report back to the board your 10k speed after doing that. You will have some rough weeks where you feel like crap, but you will be more efficient, faster and fitter.

---

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

So I'm listening. I'd really like to run more, and I'm trying; going for frequency first, then volume. Yesterday afternoon, I had about 20 minutes to get in a run between coming home from work and having cat-herding, er, child care duties. I swam in the morning, and the plan for the next day (today) was another morning swim (done) and an 11 mile bike TT followed by a transition run. What pace would be beneficial for that 20 minute run? Easy vs hard vs moderate? What about that t-run? I tend to do those as descending by half miles (down to nearly 5K pace) for a couple of miles.

I appreciate your input.

Aerobic pace.
For your T run do some near threshold pace effort for the first half and easy for the rest

---

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Meaning the pace that I can hold for what particular time/distance?

It's aerobic. you are not killing yourself. You are runinng at all day pace. Do you know what aerobic is for you? Do you just put in miles or do you actually track what pace you are running at? Are you 20min runs faster than your 40 mins runs faster than your 60 min runs? can you run 60 at your 20 pace? If not I'd say your 20 pace is probably too fast.

---

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Yeah, if only!

More like if I dropped swimming/cycling and ran 100kpw I *would* be faster... at running. :-) Well, so long as my knees/hips didn't melt down.

My point, so ignored above, was that you can't train like a runner, cyclist AND swimmer. For the OP, if ALL he wants to do is improve the run at the cost of erosion on the swim/bike, then go ahead and train like a real runner. Max the miles, blow the recovery budget all on running. Be a runner. But I don't think that's the question he asked.

---

**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

Mmm, yeah, real complex concept. I'm so dumb! You don't seem to be able to understand that you can't train for all three disciplines as if you specialized in each one. Pick one, or optimize across two or three.

Nothing distorted or misinforming about that.

There are practical limits to how much someone can run (even if specializing in running). Everyone has different limits.

Nothing distorted or misinforming about that.

Progression. "Enough" training stimulus may be achieved by lower volume. I'm not referring to jacking up intensity instead, but rather that the volume the dude needs now to improve is likely lower now than the huge numbers some are quoting. To be fair, some have said to build up over time (D-Dude, I think). Again, progression.

Nothing distorted or misinforming about that.

I only wish M2 were in this thread to opine. I don't claim to know what he would say, but my *guess* is that he would suggest something less than the higher mpw numbers tossed around here. Well, that is unless he were to just focus on running (again, not the question).

---

**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

You consider 35 - 40 mpw high numbers??

I don't think any of us misunderstand the balance of training. The issue is that he is at the top of his AG (if I remember correctly) despite the fact that his run times are 7:30 pace. His run is by far his key limiter. He needs to restructure his training and shift the balance to a more running centered program. Yes, he will have to sacrifice some of his swim and some of his bike, but it is very likely that he will more than make up for it in the run.

"enough" training volume is exactly what we are talking about. We just don't think that 20 mpw is enough.

---

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

If it is Sept, then take 2 weeks active recovery, then devote the rest of the year to a few swims, a few bikes and mainly running. Use from now to then to build up to 35-40mpw, then try to avg 50+ for 12 weeks. Report back to the board your 10k speed after doing that. You will have some rough weeks where you feel like crap, but you will be more efficient, faster and fitter.
*****************

I agree with most of what Brian and Paulo have said. Follow the above advice. Some people advise to go to a running only program. I'd suggest what Brian says; cut back on the swimming and running, but don't cut it out. There is a limit to how quickly you can build up your run anyway, so you might as well continue to swim and bike. Also, I think it's a bad idea to ever do nothing in any one discipline. From experience I can tell you that there is a HUGE difference between "very little" and nothing (I've done both.....nothing is real hard to come back from).

IMHO, 50+ may be a little too ambitious.....it's going to depend on how much you get beat up. Run 50% on trails and/or grass. If necessary, do some of this as pool running. 35 mpw + 2 hours poll running will still give your running specific muscles a great workout. In addition, build up one run a week to at least 90 minutes. If that really beats you up then you can do it once every other week.

Give yourself from October through March to build up to this goal. That's adding just 1 mile per week to get from low 20's to high 40's.

At that point you will be ready to add SOME intensity into your program. Feel free to write back then.

Lots of luck - BarryP

---

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

---

**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

[reply]Just like swimming/riding tons at Z2 isn't going to make you fast, I would expect the same from 40-60+mpw of running. [/reply]

This was supposed to be a joke, right? I spent a very significant portion of my high school and college life swimming in z2. How does someone who considers themself the self proclaimed "worst swimmer on the forum" have any idea of the benefit z2 provides in the pool? I am working to improve running my doing, lots and lots of z2 stuff, and guess what? Its working! The results don't come over night, but they are quite obvious over the course of a season.

I'm pretty darn sure that the 60+mpw others threw out there would be

***************

I think there's a misunderstanding here. I pointed this out on another post. Brian and I both threw out high numbers but were NOT suggesting that the OP do them. These were in response as to how much is necessary for 5k training. We both mentioned that competetive runners will train in the 60 to 100 mpw range for 5K racing to reinforce the point that lots of aerobic development is beneficial even for races that last only 13 to 17 minutes (or even 8 1/2 minutes for my steeple chaser friend).

Once you figure in talent, experience, and balance of 3 disciplines, this number was brought down to 35 - 50 mpw for the OP. And yes, we all agree that he should not just jump right into 50 mpw. Gradual building is always appropriate.

---

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

I always liken "speedwork" (as typically bantered about on ST) as tossing all the go-faster parts on a car motor. Running 20 miles/week and tossing speedwork in is like tossing a huge supercharger on a 4-cylinder Ford Escort motor block. It will work. It will make you quite a bit faster. But how long can that little motor take that abuse? Look at all those broken down rice machines that the 20-year-old punk kids dude up that end up on the side of the road smoking or rolling on ruined tire rims.

Build a bigger motor. Run more. Run more often. Volume and frequency. You've already heard that in various ways from those on this thread who have a clue (Desert Dude, Paulo, etc.)

Yes, and you also swam *a lot* at Z3-5. As a lot of the fish (and coaches) on this forum have said, you can swim easy all you want, but to get FAST, you are going to have to swim fast.

To be fair, my words you quoted were sloppy and incomplete. I should've said "Just like swimming/riding high volume at exclusively Z2 won't make you FAST, I'd expect the same result from 60mpw of just easy running. I'm sure you'll improve, but you aren't going to be able to train at 8:00 min and suddenly expect to run 5:30 on race day."

As far as my swimming acumen... what's that have to do with it? Do I need to be accomplished to have valid points? Besides, that was 2004!! :-)

---

**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

Running 20 miles/week and tossing speedwork in is like tossing a huge supercharger on a 4-cylinder Ford Escort motor block. It will work. It will make you quite a bit faster. But how long can that little motor take that abuse?

************

.....not bad.

---

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Thanks for summarizing and clarifying. Now if you could just say that he *might* not need to ramp all the way up to 50 miles (i.e., might achieve everything below that level), then I'm with you.

---

**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

didn't mean to start a new thread with this.









http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0100.htm





and another study:



http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0129.htm

It's entertaining. But I ask this seriously... Take two guys who can run 30 min 10K and say a 4:30 mile. One guy got there by running big volume and a sprinkling of intensity. The other guy got there by doing a sensible amount of tempo work, etc., (not crazy high-intensity), and on say half the volume.

Why would the second guy fall apart? Why is there this belief that one's fitness is somehow more fragile if earned via more intensity rather than less?

I recall someone once posting about so-called 'base work' building your sword, while intensity sharpens it. Build a big sword first! That was about the most amusing post I've seen. Right up there with the piggy bank analogy, where each base mile was a dime in the bank...

---

**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

Your words, not mine.

You probably don't notice it, in fact I'm pretty sure you don't, but just by the way you "talk" I can tell, as can others, that you have difficulty grasping simple and important concepts of basic physiology and endurance training.

And yes, get M2 and he'll agree with me, Brian and Barry.

What do you think of the science results I posted above that show intensity is better than volume?

We swam very little at z5. We swam very little at z4. The vast majority of swimming was done in zone 2, with the end of the workout in zone 3.

The really good guys spent more time in zone 2 than everyone else. Good as in 15:15 in the the 1500m LC and another guy who was 4:19 in the 500 (scy).

There are a lot of programs out there which do too much higher intensity training. Those guys don't have the base. Yes they were fast, but they probably would have been faster if they developed a deeper aerobic base.

Good distance swimmers spend tons and tons of time in the 135-150 zone. Hardly anyone is swimming (among distance guys) is swimming in zone 5 at all. The people who can handle significant time in zone 3 and 4 are the people who have built large aerobic engines over time. This is done in zones 1 and 2.

I would imagine this translates directly to running. In fact, I would imagine runners spend a higher percentage of their time at the lower end in terms of intensity and HR than swimmers do. There is a lot more impact on the road, so you can not spend as much time in z4 when running compared to swimming.

The average AG triathlete is way too lazy to go and run 35-50 miles per week. Take the OP. I would imagine he can run 8:30s pretty easily, or 7 miles per hour. If he is running ~20 miles per week now, then that is about 3 hours of running. 6 hours per week of running would get him huge gains, but most people don't want to try it. Instead, they want to go to the track on Tuesday and do their 400s and 800s. Another day they want to trash themselves on the local evening "roadie ride". While this type of training might be "fun", it is not necessarily going to get them better. They have to decide which is more fun in the end.

The OP should make it his goal to run 50 mins +/- 10 mins 5 to 6 times per week for a number of months. Resist the temptation to go hard. JFR. I would advocate keeping most of this very easy, borderline too easy (zone 1), so he can ensure he doesn't hurt himself with the increase in milege. After 2-3 months of around 5-6 hours of running per week (~40 miles), then see how much of the running he can do in zone 2.

It seems all we have to do to run faster is to run more, it is so freaking simple, yet people love to muddy the waters. Also, if you throw in too much intensity on the track and dont have the base to let your body be able to handle that type of stress from running, then how are you going to recover to give a honest effort in your key cycling workouts without cooking yourself?

Very few people will ever get to running 5:30s in any triathlon, but I can promise you nobody who is running 5:30s is doing it on 20 miles per week. At some point in any 34 min 10K guy's life he did a lot of miles.

I think they'll argue that you need the base to support it over the long run somehow.

---

**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

Well then please help me prevent myself from misinforming others and cite a specific example. Please.

Note that the core of our disagreement here is that I am saying "more" to his volume, and you are saying "even more."

---

**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.