Upgrade to direct drive trainer?

Jan 4, 21 10:54

Post #1 of 79 (2034 views)

So I'm in a mental dilemma. I currently have a old Elite Axiom smart trainer. It's real old, like plug into a laptop via usb old. Im a Mac guy and this causes a problem as there are no good drivers for the elite for Mac. so I have a ridiculously old windows laptop that I connect it to so I can run Zwift. The power reading was also really bad. I ended up getting PowerTap pedals and its easily 30 watts+ low vs the pedals. The laptop right now is the root of my problems as it cant handle workouts and is so slow to launch Zwift. I literally go down to my bike about 30 minutes before I want to ride and start the process of firing it up. That issue may be solved in the very near future though with a newer hand me down laptop.

So with the new stimulus money the wife has agreed that I could use some of that to buy a new direct drive trainer. She's not thrilled with the idea of spending $800 on a trainer but she knows I use it daily.

So my big question, is it worth it? Right now I'm looking at the Elite Suito as it hits the price point and I can actually find it in stock places. Benefits I can see are its quieter, Direct Drive, has ERG mode which I don't have currently and is wireless and will work with my Mac or iPad.

If the newer laptop solves my lagging problem the real benefits I will get from a new trainer are quieter and ERG mode. I have heard lots of people rave about direct drive over wheel mount and I love the idea of not having to deal with keeping the tire inflated or flatting but I wonder if the ride quality or experience is that noticeable. Is ERG mode that big a deal?

I'm also a bit nervous about the age of the trainers. It seems most everything on the market currently came out in like 2017,2018. I would be super ticked if I bought a the Suito and then a month later a whole new crop of trainers came out.

Thoughts and experience are always appreciated!

Thanks

________________________________________________

God's in his heaven, alls right with the world -Nerv

Re: Upgrade to direct drive trainer? [suparuki] [ In reply to ]

Jan 4, 21 11:03

Post #2 of 79 (2022 views)

I just upgraded to a Kickr Core from a wheel-on smart trainer. I love it! Less to mess with, way quieter, more accurate than my other one. I can run Zwift on my phone, ipad, or apple TV, which is convenient if my son needs to use one of those.

Re: Upgrade to direct drive trainer? [suparuki] [ In reply to ]

Jan 4, 21 11:06

Post #3 of 79 (2016 views)

My experience is limited, but I bought a used H1 for my wife recently and I was surprised by how quiet it is. In DC Rainmaker's reviews, he mentions the H1 is very loud compared to the H2 and H3, so i expected it to be as loud as our older wheel-on CycleOps Powersync. It's way quieter than that. I think i paid $600 for a gently used one, and it's been great for her and me both. She likes it because it rides nice (heavy flywheel) and I like it because the house isn't as loud when she rides it. She doesn't use erg mode, just rouvy.

I don't know anything about the Suito, so i can't comment on that specifically. But, to me the two generation old H1 direct drive trainer was worth the price to upgrade.

Re: Upgrade to direct drive trainer? [suparuki] [ In reply to ]

Jan 4, 21 11:14

Post #4 of 79 (1999 views)

If you're riding more than 1x/wk indoors on it, and plan on long-term use (like years) it's worth it to get a good DD trainer and computer to drive Zwift well.

Yes, it's a bit up an up front outlay, but you can use it for years.

I am still using a gen-1 Kickr, which is arguably the least accurate of them all (power drift as it warms up, luckily I monitor power with Favero pedals so I can work with it) and it's been functionally bulletproof since 2014 when I got it. (Gawd, I can't believe it's been 7 years already!)

My wife got me a fancy Macbook pro to run Zwift, but you can use any other PC or apple TV.

Zwift running well with a good trainer is awesome. Seriously, so good that as much as I adore riding and training outdoors, I will often pick a large Zwift fondo or group event/ride because it's so much fun to ride and compete against other similar riders and not deal with traffic.

Re: Upgrade to direct drive trainer? [suparuki] [ In reply to ]

Jan 4, 21 11:17

Post #5 of 79 (1995 views)

I wouldn't worry too much about buying now. There will always be a "new" thing coming... but trainers often have "refreshes" more than totally new architecture.

I went from a Computrainer to a Neo2t... it felt like a pretty big upgrade. Not having to deal with changing wheels, warming up the roller, etc is pretty nice. Not life changing, but definitely an upgrade.

Evangelion quote, nice.

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

Re: Upgrade to direct drive trainer? [suparuki] [ In reply to ]

Jan 4, 21 11:32

Post #6 of 79 (1975 views)

I recently upgraded from a Powersync (wheel on) to a direct drive Neo 2T. The difference is noticeable between wheel on vs direct drive, but not massive, especially if you already have a power source that's accurate.

I personally really dislike erg mode and don't understand why people like it so much. I've tried it a few times and feel like I'm just fighting the trainer the whole time as it tries to lock me into a specific number, and I find I'm not as mentally engaged in the workout with erg mode. I prefer to train to ranges and allow a bit of variability based on how I'm feeling vs being locked into specific numbers. Plus, you have to hold power on your own on race day so I think the best way to train is to practice holding power on your own.

I think you would probably find the upgrade worth it, mostly because you'll have a current trainer that can connect easier which will make the workout set up process much quicker. And you may like erg mode.

Re: Upgrade to direct drive trainer? [suparuki] [ In reply to ]

Jan 4, 21 11:34

Post #7 of 79 (1972 views)

I had a kickr core for two weeks before returning. It's cool (especially how it reacts in Zwift) and I loved how quiet it was, but I didn't feel like I got anything out of it that I didn't get with my old fluid trainer. I also only ride on the trainer when I have to so it wouldn't receive the use that others on this forum would get out of it.

Re: Upgrade to direct drive trainer? [jhammond] [ In reply to ]

Jan 4, 21 11:51

Post #8 of 79 (1946 views)

Quote:

I had a kickr core for two weeks before returning. It's cool (especially how it reacts in Zwift) and I loved how quiet it was, but I didn't feel like I got anything out of it that I didn't get with my old fluid trainer.

I really like riding routes in Tacx, BigRingVR, Rouvy, etc. and sometimes Zwift and I'm in WI so I do all my riding indoors for a few months. If you don't like routes, I'm not sure there's much to be gained. Sometimes I feel like digging out my old fluid trainer for workouts. I simulate an incline to add resistance for workouts, but it makes things a little more complicated than a fluid trainer.

Re: Upgrade to direct drive trainer? [ In reply to ]

Jan 4, 21 12:01

Post #9 of 79 (1926 views)

+1 here for going direct drive smart trainer. I tried a wheel on that failed and I returned at no cost to me. I didn't like the pfuffing around of the wheel/tires and tensioning.

I just find smart trainers more engaging than a dumb trainer. If you have a spot in training for some Z2 or tempo instead of rote intervals, having a smart trainer really is more engaging to crank out a 2 or 3 hour long indoors ride. I would shoot myself in the face before doing 3 hours of Z2 on a fluid trainer. I get that people watch movies and stuff, but to me that's kind of ruining the experience of two different things instead of optimizing the experience of one thing. I either want to enjoy riding my bike OR enjoy my movie, not compromise on both.

In general, getting your setup as pleasing and rapid to jump on as possible maximizes your training potential. Things like being able to leave everything setup and ready at all times.

Re: Upgrade to direct drive trainer? [suparuki] [ In reply to ]

Jan 4, 21 12:02

Post #10 of 79 (1924 views)

I've had a Suito for about 3 months, using it about 5 x a week. It works great. No complaints or issues.

Re: Upgrade to direct drive trainer? [IM-Yeti] [ In reply to ]

Jan 4, 21 12:07

Post #11 of 79 (1914 views)

Thanks for that input. Im looking around at forums and what not and all I see are issues. Its nice to get some positive feedback. I think thats another worry of mine. If I get it and it starts to flake out vs the old trainer which just seems to run.

"Why did you spend $800 on a trainer that doesn't work?"

it seems like most of the issues have been resolved but I see lots of calibration and cadence/power spikes listed.

Also just a general question. If you had power pedals would you use those for power/cadence or still use the trainer? Any benefit one way or the other?

thanks

________________________________________________

God's in his heaven, alls right with the world -Nerv

Re: Upgrade to direct drive trainer? [mjdwyer23] [ In reply to ]

Jan 4, 21 12:11

Post #12 of 79 (1905 views)

mjdwyer23 wrote:

I just upgraded to a Kickr Core from a wheel-on smart trainer. I love it! Less to mess with, way quieter, more accurate than my other one. I can run Zwift on my phone, ipad, or apple TV, which is convenient if my son needs to use one of those.

Same. I can't believe that I put up with the wheel-on smart trainer for as long as I did. Training has been much more enjoyable/less frustrating with the recently purchased Kickr Core.

Janyne

Re: Upgrade to direct drive trainer? [suparuki] [ In reply to ]

Jan 4, 21 12:12

Post #13 of 79 (1905 views)

Depends. If you use the trainer a lot (I ride indoors probably 80% of the time) then it’s absolutely worth it. I’ve had a kicker for 4 years and have used the absolute hell out of it. Phenomenal training tool. If you ride indoors a good bit then you’ll 100% get your return on investment. FWIW I run Zwift on Apple TV with my kicker. Works awesome.

Re: Upgrade to direct drive trainer? [suparuki] [ In reply to ]

Jan 4, 21 12:13

Post #14 of 79 (1903 views)

I have power pedals, but keep them turned off while on the trainer. I haven't compared the power levels between the trainer and pedals, but others have an it is negligible difference. On the advice of DC Rainmaker I believe in ERG mode I put the chain on the small front ring and a middling rear.

Re: Upgrade to direct drive trainer? [jhammond] [ In reply to ]

Jan 4, 21 12:15

Post #15 of 79 (1901 views)

I had a kickr core for two weeks before returning. It's cool (especially how it reacts in Zwift) and I loved how quiet it was, but I didn't feel like I got anything out of it that I didn't get with my old fluid trainer. I also only ride on the trainer when I have to so it wouldn't receive the use that others on this forum would get out of it.

The alternative and outlier view.

First - the direct drive trainers, ARE better. But "better" here, really means how they interact with other technology and platforms and really here, it's all about Zwift. If you use Zwift a lot, you are racing on Zwift, are doing a lot of specific training on Zwift, then the direct drive trainers are the way to go.

But if you are not - if you are self motivated. If you have several bench-mark workouts and sessions that you know how you are doing. If you are not on Power, and use Heart Rate or PE - then, yes, a basic trainer will do just fine for you.

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Re: Upgrade to direct drive trainer? [suparuki] [ In reply to ]

Jan 4, 21 12:31

Post #16 of 79 (1878 views)

Buy the trainer and get an apple tv. A lot cheaper than a new laptop

Re: Upgrade to direct drive trainer? [suparuki] [ In reply to ]

Jan 4, 21 12:43

Post #17 of 79 (1859 views)

Quote:

Also just a general question. If you had power pedals would you use those for power/cadence or still use the trainer? Any benefit one way or the other?

I would continue to use the pedals for power. That will keep your numbers consistent between your prior data and your indoor and outdoor rides. I'm not sure what the accuracy of the Suito is, but your pedals might be a bit more accurate too.

Re: Upgrade to direct drive trainer? [suparuki] [ In reply to ]

Jan 4, 21 12:49

Post #18 of 79 (1843 views)

fwiw, all the direct mount trainers, bar the Neo, are belt drive not direct drive.

Re: Upgrade to direct drive trainer? [suparuki] [ In reply to ]

Jan 4, 21 13:02

Post #19 of 79 (1830 views)

In a word, yes. Going from an old wheel-on trainer (not smart though) to a Saris H3 has been a complete game changer. Zwift finally makes sense and is awesome now. The feel of the direct-drive trainer with a flywheel is much more realistic than a wheel-on trainer and it is super quiet. And yes, erg mode is a big deal. It's awesome for structured workouts where you just want to get the work done as efficiently as possible and don't want to focus on maintaining a specific power target (although that is an important skill too).

Re: Upgrade to direct drive trainer? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]

Jan 4, 21 14:04

Post #20 of 79 (1783 views)

i'm going to agree but from the opposite direction. i have an oooold, simple (mag?) wheel-on trainer. and an old, simple tri bike (alu soloist from ~2004!).

so: for me to get even simple metrics like cadence and indoor speed, i'd need to buy some new garmin sensors. i don't have power, either, so buying a meter would be a major outlay. buy a smart trainer and i get all that measured in one place, and suddenly a lot more data from my training. i don't mind training with that data and racing by RPE, by the way. i'm sort of indifferent to things like zwift - haven't ever tried them, and maybe i'll love them, but virtual group rides and races aren't really my cup of tea.

i will upgrade my tri bike one of these days, and that may include adding a power meter and so on. but for now that's probably a couple of years away.

in addition to all that, i live in an apartment and have a 3-year-old and a 1-year-old, so . . . a quieter trainer makes a lot of sense.

so for me, i think a smart trainer might be worth it purely from the training and data POV, even if i never get into zwift. the smart trainer ticks a handful of boxes for me.

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

Re: Upgrade to direct drive trainer? [Dgconner154] [ In reply to ]

Jan 4, 21 14:39

Post #21 of 79 (1755 views)

Dgconner154 wrote:

In a word, yes. Going from an old wheel-on trainer (not smart though) to a Saris H3 has been a complete game changer. Zwift finally makes sense and is awesome now. The feel of the direct-drive trainer with a flywheel is much more realistic than a wheel-on trainer and it is super quiet. And yes, erg mode is a big deal. It's awesome for structured workouts where you just want to get the work done as efficiently as possible and don't want to focus on maintaining a specific power target (although that is an important skill too).

I recently switched from an iPhone 6 to the new iPhone 12. The Apple lady promised it'd be a night-and-day difference. For me it hasn't been, at all. The thing uses my face to unlock rather than my finger. Once unlocked, the user experience seems basically identical.

I wonder if upgrading from my current Saris wheel-on, dumb trainer would be similarly underwhelming. I've got power and cadence already via the Powertap already on the bike, and they are plenty consistent and reliable. Just not sure how much added value there would be (for me) from things like more realistic feel and quieter operation. But I've been thinking about it more and more recently, now that I'm Zwifting 4-5x a week (I'm on one of their structured training plans, no group rides or races currently, or likely ever).

Re: Upgrade to direct drive trainer? [davearm] [ In reply to ]

Jan 4, 21 14:55

Post #22 of 79 (1742 views)

Quote:

I recently switched from an iPhone 6 to the new iPhone 12. The Apple lady promised it'd be a night-and-day difference. For me it hasn't been, at all. The thing uses my face to unlock rather than my finger. Once unlocked, the user experience seems basically identical.

Same. I went from a 6 to a 12 and other than it being a little faster and slightly bigger, I didn't notice much difference.

I trained for years with a Powertap and a fluid trainer. I got a Powersync a few years ago and am on a Neo 2T right now. I do think the difference from a fluid trainer on Zwift (or other platforms with real routes, which is my preference) to a smart trainer is huge. It's a much bigger change than going from an iphone 6 to a 12. I think smart trainers are more fun, but they are more complex and tend to have more issues. And you can have software and/or connection issues. Sometimes I miss the simplicity of my fluid trainer, but apparently not enough to ever actually dig it out and ride it.

Re: Upgrade to direct drive trainer? [davearm] [ In reply to ]

Jan 4, 21 17:24

Post #23 of 79 (1696 views)

I'm kind of with you on this. I have Zwift, a power meter, KK Road Machine fluid trainer, iPad, etc...

I guess the change in resistance if you're just riding around on the routes is interesting; however, I'm usually doing workouts and trying to hit specific numbers so I don't care whether I'm going up or down a hill. The simplicity of using ERG mode for intervals "might" be nice. When racing, I pay attention to the grade and other racers so I know when to apply more power. The convenience factor is also nice but is it $800+ nice...to me, no.

Re: Upgrade to direct drive trainer? [Supersquid] [ In reply to ]

Jan 4, 21 17:43

Post #24 of 79 (1681 views)

Supersquid wrote:

Quote:

I recently switched from an iPhone 6 to the new iPhone 12. The Apple lady promised it'd be a night-and-day difference. For me it hasn't been, at all. The thing uses my face to unlock rather than my finger. Once unlocked, the user experience seems basically identical.

Same. I went from a 6 to a 12 and other than it being a little faster and slightly bigger, I didn't notice much difference.

I trained for years with a Powertap and a fluid trainer. I got a Powersync a few years ago and am on a Neo 2T right now. I do think the difference from a fluid trainer on Zwift (or other platforms with real routes, which is my preference) to a smart trainer is huge. It's a much bigger change than going from an iphone 6 to a 12. I think smart trainers are more fun, but they are more complex and tend to have more issues. And you can have software and/or connection issues. Sometimes I miss the simplicity of my fluid trainer, but apparently not enough to ever actually dig it out and ride it.

I don't disagree about the simplicity of the non-smart trainers; heck, I even sometimes such set my Kickr on slope mode and watch shows while riding z2.

The Smart features of the trainer do become very fun and interesting with Zwift though, with the hill simulations, and yes, erg mode when it's not used ALL the time. (I typically engage erg only for my set intervals, but ride free on the rest.)

Are you non-smart advocates doing group rides on zwift with your Tacx Neos, etc? If you're not, that would make a lot of sense why you're not missing much.

Re: Upgrade to direct drive trainer? [Rideon77] [ In reply to ]

Jan 4, 21 18:23

Post #25 of 79 (1650 views)

Rideon77 wrote:

Buy the trainer and get an apple tv. A lot cheaper than a new laptop

Yup. Apple TV and Zwift is such a cost effective combo.

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