Good stuff.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Sharks?

Or, if we're talking lakes: Nasty catfish

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Is there an "Adult Onset Runner" designation? Since I started running consistently nearly 8 years ago (mostly just using BarryP program), I have dropped about 20 minutes off my half marathon time and my IM run split is now 30 minutes faster than my very first open marathon in 2012. I was 28 back then and almost 36 now.

I would say swimming is a bigger hurdle to overcome but running well (relative to YOUR potential) also takes years of consistent work if you're starting from scratch.

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Strava

It does sound like some sort of moral failure.

Uhm - I do not have Type 2 swimmer...I had something else but it was curable! Never dive into a pool just because it looks pretty.

As far as the work put in i saw posted earlier. I agree. Everyone asks what club team I swam for or what not. Nah, it has just been suffering. I REALLY hate just doing laps for the sake of doing laps and since there is no real "stress" per say in the pool and recovery is minimal - i tend to just hammer about as hard as I can and take break when needed. I might be in the pool for 2 hours and half of that is just getting my breath back but it made me quick enough to be FOP at local races - in a town full of swimmer - that is located at the beach - surrounded by river on the other side. It is a town of damn dolphins haha


wish I grew up in a town of runners...then I might actually not suck where it counts haha

Not even joking, if there were a youth program that started kids running competitively for years starting at age 5, with national ranking systems and points the way swimming does it, you better believe there would be "AOS-runners" , and all the stigma we attach to it with AOS-swimmers.

It's already that way in a lesser extent when a new triathlete comes here and says, "I've been running competitive x-country since 7th grade to senior year" or better yet "into college." The conversation about expected open 5k race times would START at 18:30 as a slowest-timepoint, and get faster from there. But since we don't have such a youth program, AG triathletes don't benchmark to a 18:30 5k runner as typical, but to a 21-24 5k runner as typical.

The main hangup with the youth swimming vs running is that literally all the good ex-youth swimmers automatically assume their speed is mainly a function of technique and never mention talent, when it's stunningly obvious to any outsider who looks at the selection process in competitive youth swimming that talent is probably the main driver of who survives the cut and who doesn't, no different than literally any other competitive youth activity.

Since I started running consistently nearly 8 years ago (mostly just using BarryP program),
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That's the kicker with swimming. Most people that I've met and self-identify as an AOS would never dream of putting forth the same effort in the pool as they would for running and/ or cycling. People that swam as youths put in 5+ workouts a week at 1.5-2 hours per workout. And ya know what, they sucked for several years. Know what they did? They continued to put in 5+ workouts per week. For many weeks in a row. Then many months. And then many years. The BarryP program recommends that you run every day, building your long run up to at least 90 minutes or so, and no one bats an eye. Do this again and again. The swimmers recommend swimming 5 days a week, building a long day up to 4-5k yards. There's outcry and grumpiness.

The whole mindset between the self-identified AOS and their desire to catch up to FOP times on 2-3 days a week is boggling.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

I can understand this. I am a lifelong competitive swimmer and I have to admit that I now enjoy running and biking much more than I do swimming (even though I still like swimming)... I just assumed it was burnout, but it's also a much tougher and frustrating sport. When I started running, I wasn't very fast, but I kept seeing gradual improvements, and it was an enjoyable activity with limited amount of frustration.



I think good technique is a function of talent, but, yeah, agree (i.e. talented swimmers have a great "feel" for the water). I guess the whole goal of swimming growing up was to get a scholarship and be part of a college team (the equivalent of a $12k/year job - ridiculous), but I saw a lot of my peers drop out because the results they were getting were not indicative of how much work they were putting into it. This happened to me in my last 2 years of college - I trained just as hard but finally hit my performance plateau. Lack of improvement is a huge demotivater.

I think AOS must experience in the water what I experienced in golf - I practiced golf a LOT a few years before I got into triathlon and I seemed to get worse. If the hard work doesn't give you meaningful work and you're not seeing even gradual improvements, it can make you want to quit that activity.

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Strava

That is my buddy! He currently trains me but he ran in middle school, high school, and college. Had not trained or ran in 2+ years and ran a local 5k and did a low 17's. I have been running for a solid 2 years actually training and am in shape and JUST broke sub 20. He worked a bit (month or two) and ran a high 15's. I will outswim him 100% no problem and outbike him any day of the week but I cannot even imagine coming close to his running ability.

Now just imagine if he told you 'it's all my running technique that allows me to stay so fast despite long layoffs from running.'

Would you believe that? We hear this on a near-daily basis on ST (to be fair, less so now).

Neal, you are always full of interesting stuff that is for sure. Thanks for sharing!

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That's a silly analogy.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Silly, but it's literally what the ex-collegiate or ex-competitive youth swimmers say here day in dayout.

Let me rephrase it: that's a poor analogy.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

In the context of triathlon, swimming is:

60% Body form (shape, posture), + skills, and understanding the water
20% Fitness
20% Swim specific training.

Therefore I can take a schooled swimmer that has not done squat in the pool for a while, drop into a tri and be first out of the water. Seen it happen!! He or she is only losing 20% off best time.

I've applied this myself and got faster by upgrading on the 60% component through PT and yoga.

Running, no way. You have to train to perform due to the fitness demands and mechanics required.

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Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com

Except the huge problem in your analogy is that the skills necessary for a Cat 1-2 crit are completely irrelevant to triathlon competition, which really requires a very low level of cycling technique. I see strong tri cyclists who have relatively poor handling skills all the time. There's just no comparison in terms of triathlon cycling technique and swim technique.

In a field of skinny Pro-1-2 cyclists, I think the gorilla takes whatever line he wants through the last corner. Who's gonna argue with him?

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I am going to have to disagree. There were some girls on my college swim team that were (to put it nicely) hefty. definitely not hydrodynamic to any extent - but they were fast as hell. they were super strong and had engines like nothing I have seen. You just can't get in the textbook swim posture and form and shape with their body types. They were, to put it simply, fat and round. I would have to technique gets you to a certain point and then comes fitness for the rest.

So at first;
50%
40%
10%

then once you get a certain speed;
20%
70%
10%

Except running is weight bearing and swimming you have water holding you up. In swimming a good swimmer uses the water and moves the water around it maximizing propulsion, minimizing drag, maximizing lift (at the right phases and right body parts) and countering the weight of gravity. This what an airplane does in the air (maximize forward true air speed by maximizing the propulsion vs drag equation, while keeping the lift vs gravity in equilibrium). In swimming you have a body moving through a fluid just like an airplane in in the air or a puffin bird which actually flies in air (poorly) and also flies underwater (well). When I watch a really good breast stroker, you can really see the analogy to bodies in motion flying through fluids.

In running you have to work against gravity and you can't do that after a long layoff no matter how good you are.

I want to add my 2 cents to this thread.

I am an AOS. I'm 42. I started swimming masters at 26 for a few years. Swam by myself for a while, and now back on a masters team for the past 4 years. I swim 4-5 days a week and usually 3k+ yards a session. We have a coach on deck who puts us through pretty hard sets. I'm not throwing up at the end, but he's pushing me to my limits. I get constant feedback on what I'm doing wrong on my technique. I'm pretty good at swimming in triathlons but no matter what, I'm not coming out of the water in the front of the pack. In a 70.3 I usually come out of the swim around 20-30th place, and then bridge most of this gap on the bike and a good bit on the run. I'd love to come out of the water in the top 10 so I don't have to kill myself on the bike, but it is what it is. Take away a hard swim and I can win my age group (1st at Chattanooga and Augusta). Give me a hard swim and I'm going to fall apart on the run because of playing catch up. (16th at Florida and 8th at Raleigh)

Anyway, then you have my 9 year old daughter. She's coached by the same person and is my mini me. Only swims 2x a week and maybe 3. I don't let her swim more than that because of burnout and I want her to the fastest at 16, not at 10. Well she's an amazing swimmer. She's crushing it in the pool and killing the summer swim league and could possibly make some state cuts this year. Her times are starting to close in on my 50s/100s/200s.

So, my point is....I think it's much more important to start swimming at an early age (she started at 6) than putting in the work as an AOS. She's almost bridged the gap between us in a little over two years. And I'm putting in the the most work. Its just not the same as putting in the work in biking and running. I've gone from a 2:35 biker to a 2:21 on the same bike course, and from a 1:29 in 2015 to a 1:21 half marathon at Publix in 2018. But the same amount of effort/work just doesn't translate to swimming.

That's just my 2 cents.

first off - that is rad. haha bet that gives you a nice shi* eating smile. Sure would for me!

but reading this - do you think it has anything to do with "pool swimming" vs "open water swimming"? Does the comfort level change or the being able to straight line sight it make a difference? I ask this because I am a surfer and so were my buddies. We know some swimmers who still swim and could kill us in a pool - but when it comes to ocean swims - we always beat them. I attribute this to the comfort level of being in that environment

haha. Yeah, I can't wait for the day when she is faster than me. I'm the dad on the pool deck making the boom sound when she hits the wall. Other parents look at me like I'm an idiot.

I've thought a lot about what you said about OWS. You're actually not the first person to say something about my times not translating. I will this. One of my biggest problems is seeing in an OWS. I've almost mastered the ability to keep my goggles from fogging. I'm getting faster in the open water, but it's a process. I think one of my issues at Raleigh is that I stayed outside instead of being right next to the buoy and that probably cost me a minute. I'm doing an OLY next weekend that has a buddy of mine that's faster than me in the water. My whole strategy is to try and draft off him the entire swim.

I'm fully aware of the physics AND technique requirements of swimming that differ from running. I'm not denying that. I'll also agree that if someone gains 40 pounds by being inactive, it will impact them a lot more in loss of run ability (weight/gravity) than swimming.

I'm making the point as the OP pointed out with his coach/friend above who ran a 17 min 5k after 2 years nearly completely off, then within a month dropped back down to 15 min for the 5k, is that talent and prior training effects are huge in all endurance sports, and swimming is no exception, yet all you fish constantly ignore this reality, and keep pointing at technique as the sole/main reason that ex-collegiate or ex-comp youth swimmers (highly selected over years of competitive swimming) stay fast, when it's not at all true that's the case, and it may be highly more likely that in fact its the talent that's far and away the #1 factor as to why ex-comp swimmers stay fast even after not training for awhile.

The OPs story isn't at all unique. Everyone here knows that talent doesn't go away - it's the degree of how far you let yourself go that can prevent it from expressing itself, but the moment a talented individual decides to drop the hammer in training/racing, game over compared to the mortals. Swimming is no different, and it's time the fish at least start acknowledging how huge talent is, rather than constantly harping on their awesome technique.

Seriously, how else besides talent does someone like klehner, who seems to post constantly about technique, get so fast that he can beat 99% of triathletes, and likely 90+% of competitive swimmers in a single year of swimming? (At least that's the range of what my memory seems to rememember about him.)

why do you think technique is not dependent on talent (and hard work, and good coaching, and....)?

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I fully include swim technique (in addition to power) as part of that talent set. Someone with true swim talent will be able to learn/maintain swim talent quickly over time as well as the power needed to support it.

That still doesn't mean I don't think the technique portion of the swim is overemphasized for age-group swimmers who are trying to improve. (Again, emphasis on age-group triathlon swimmers. NOT elite swimmers who are already maxxing their training load.)

And I still think that even if true swim talent includes both technique AND power/fitness, I would still guesstimate that power/fitness is the bigger factor for the huge gap between the talented swimmer and the age-group mortal swimmer. Mainly because of the results in all other endurance sports that don't have such a big technique component like running also have a similarly huge gap between the talented and the nontalented, as well as the reality that you can't swim sub 1:20 or anywhere near there with the type of cadences and pull appearances we routinely see on literally every single one of the self-posted videos here on ST.

Even you yourself were surprised at the one recent guy who filmed himself in a short pool and had few/no major technique flaws, yet said he swam OWS at 2:00/100. Even if he's lowballing, for sure, he's not swimming sub 1:20, yet his technique was pretty clean. What's up with that?