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Re: Can we address the gorilla in the room? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
I agree with the OP for the most part. Def for the typical AG-triathlete - start in youth does NOT make a shred of difference. It's ALL about working hard and consistently as an adult.

This quote is from the same guy that rejects the advice that both technique and fitness are very important in swimming, and says over and over again that your power is much more important than your technique once you get a basic level of technique. This is based on his N-1 experience that leads him to reject the advice given by pretty much anyone here that actually knows what they're talking about.

FWIW, I see this effect to an even greater level in downhill skiing, which I've done since I was four. It's almost unheard of for someone that comes to the sport as an adult to ever achieve the highest levels of expert technique. They can become pretty proficient, but usually that's about it. Sure, some of it is the extra time that the young starters had, but there's really no doubt it's a significant advantage to have those skills ingrained at an early age.
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Re: Can we address the gorilla in the room? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
I did not start biking until my 20's //

You are lying, every kid rides some kind of bike at some point. And every kid runs doing some sport, or just runs, it is what kids do. But many do not learn to swim, ever. So after you are out of school and you never learned to swim, you are a AOS. And it makes a huge difference in this one particular sport that you did not learn it as a kid. This is why I coined that term, it is a distinct category. Can you overcome it and become great? Well eventually the sperm does get to the egg, so occasionally one does succeed... (-;

Interesting, but the first use of that phrase ever on this forum was 11 years ago by ST user 'roadiemike'.

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Re: Can we address the gorilla in the room? [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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nealhe wrote:
"A further experiment was done by Hubel and Wiesel to understood whether the ability to see is innate or acquired. The experiment is done by suturing one of the eyes of a newborn kitten and reopen it after a certain period. Surprisingly kittens with one eye deprived of vision for the first 3 month remain blind on that eye for their whole life."

As someone who had an eye bandaged for months when I was less than two years old, and who never recovered functional use of said eye, I don't know why they would be surprised. It's called amblyopia.

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"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Can we address the gorilla in the room? [tttiltheend] [ In reply to ]
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tttiltheend wrote:
lightheir wrote:
I agree with the OP for the most part. Def for the typical AG-triathlete - start in youth does NOT make a shred of difference. It's ALL about working hard and consistently as an adult.


This quote is from the same guy that rejects the advice that both technique and fitness are very important in swimming, and says over and over again that your power is much more important than your technique once you get a basic level of technique. This is based on his N-1 experience that leads him to reject the advice given by pretty much anyone here that actually knows what they're talking about.

I'm pretty much an outlier when it comes to proficiency achieved among AOSs, but I'm nowhere near the swimming levels of my friends who swam as kids. In addition, I know a number of AOS triathletes who work hard and consistently in the pool who will never approach even my level of swimming, no matter how hard they train.

To be an excellent swimmer, you need a good level of proprioception. Those who have it as kids will continue to swim through the AG ranks; those who don't, won't. Having good proprioception will allow some level of success as an AOS; I believe that developing good proprioception when young is key to having it as an adult. That means doing skill sports that require knowledge of where your body is in relation to everything else and being able to make changes based on said feedback (soccer, tennis, basketball, wrestling, etc.). Running XC won't do it.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Can we address the gorilla in the room? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
tttiltheend wrote:
lightheir wrote:
I agree with the OP for the most part. Def for the typical AG-triathlete - start in youth does NOT make a shred of difference. It's ALL about working hard and consistently as an adult.


This quote is from the same guy that rejects the advice that both technique and fitness are very important in swimming, and says over and over again that your power is much more important than your technique once you get a basic level of technique. This is based on his N-1 experience that leads him to reject the advice given by pretty much anyone here that actually knows what they're talking about.


I'm pretty much an outlier when it comes to proficiency achieved among AOSs, but I'm nowhere near the swimming levels of my friends who swam as kids. In addition, I know a number of AOS triathletes who work hard and consistently in the pool who will never approach even my level of swimming, no matter how hard they train.

To be an excellent swimmer, you need a good level of proprioception. Those who have it as kids will continue to swim through the AG ranks; those who don't, won't. Having good proprioception will allow some level of success as an AOS; I believe that developing good proprioception when young is key to having it as an adult. That means doing skill sports that require knowledge of where your body is in relation to everything else and being able to make changes based on said feedback (soccer, tennis, basketball, wrestling, etc.). Running XC won't do it.

I think your experience as a decathlete, hurdling, high jumping, pole vaulting, javelin throwing and discuss throwing cover that!!!! Those are all fairly complex body movements
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Re: Can we address the gorilla in the room? [PushThePace] [ In reply to ]
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So you’re arguing the theory of evolution then?

Not so much evolution, although "natural selection" is at play. There is enough competitive swimming opportunities for kids in the US that a decent chunk of those kids who have real talent do get exposed enough to have an opportunity to give it a try. And when you factor in the demographics of where most triathletes come from, those who take up swimming later in life have a decent chance of not just having missed out on swimming as a youth by chance but they had actually have a decent chance of having chosen NOT to do it.

My point real point though was that in comparing oneself to adults who swam competitively as kids and wondering why you are not as fast as them, we're not giving them enough credit for both their talent AND the work they have put in. There are kids who suck at swimming. Lots of them (I used to coach young age groupers so I know of what I speak). But most of those kids are out of the sport by the time they are 10 or so. Youth competitive swimming in the US is a highly structured, extremely competitive environment that casts a fairly wide net. Youth swimming in the US is big, it is well coached at all levels and "the system" ends up being very very good at finding and developing talent. (The US does not win all those Olympic swimming medals by accident). So, anyone who participated in that system at any level for more than a couple years likely does have at least some talent (i.e. extreme swim talent by triathlon standards ;-) and they definitely have received good coaching. And the longer one stays in the system, the more one gets out of it.

No one would take up softball at 35 and, playing on the company team, wonder why they were not as good as their office mate who played baseball through high school much less if he had played 2 years of pro minor league baseball after college. But somehow with swimming, it is some kind of mysterious syndrome if you can't do the equivalent of hitting a decent curve ball or throwing an 80 mph fastball within 6 months after picking up a baseball for the first time .

You all need to stop being so hard on yourselves. Just keep working and you will get faster. But you probably have to be working quite a bit harder than you currently are.
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Re: Can we address the gorilla in the room? [Gonefishin5555] [ In reply to ]
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Gonefishin5555 wrote:
i never heard of the term until I visited this forum. i would just call these people non-swimmers or recreational swimmers. Actually thinking about it I would call anyone who would wear a speedo a swimmer and then there is everyone else.

haha I love speedo's. I was an ex diver though. In highschool - you were weird if you wore a speedo. Then I got on a club team and HAD to wear a speedo because only serious divers wore speedo's. Then in college - you werent cool if you didnt wear a speedo. I will rock a nut hugger in bright colors to the beach any day of the year - no shame in that at all haha


Now - so I grew up surfing. Getting pounded by hurricane waves and surfing for hours all the time. When I got the bright idea for triathlon - I swam 50 yards and was totally gassed. I had to get my swimmer buddy to teach me how to turn my head and breath and not drown and all the technique involved. I was a freshman in college. 10 years later I am now FOP. I attribute that to being comfortable in the water, VERY used to being in the middle of the ocean very early no matter the weather, and having the engine. It was the technique though that definitely caught me up. So technically I am an adult onset swimmer but I learned how to swim fast.

I do not consider myself an AOS because I had been in the water my entire life - and I am sure it would be different if you never really touched water until your 20's but you can learn it and be a "swimmer" and out of the category of "AOS"..at least in my opinion.

Also "recreational swimmer" - anyone who competes in triathlon "races" (more or less) so I consider them a "swimmer". They are not doing it for recreation but for competition. I consider a "competitive swimmer" someone who focuses on only/primarily the sport of swimming or has; ie - a masters swimmer who does swim meets AND triathlon.


I just don't agree with the AOS label as it implies someone is less than adequate or not good enough to be a "swimmer" but mates - yall are swimming in a race. You are a swimmer haha give yourself some credit

woo air is getting thin on this soapbox. Im going to step off a for a bit haha
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Re: Can we address the gorilla in the room? [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]
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As a lifelong swimmer, I'm enjoying the schadenfreude of this thread. I was a "regionally good" swimmer from about age 8 through college. I could beat most anyone in local events and then I'd go to zones meets and get something like 7th place in various events. It was nice to be fairly good at something but this earned me exactly zero respect growing up. Being a swimmer is a bit frustrating this way: you put in a ton of work in the early AM, you spend a significant portion of your life getting videotaped and honing your skills, you go to elite camps and work your ass off, you might have a bit of talent, you might win boxes of trophies and NO ONE outside of people who actually know something about swimming respects any of it. You're just some dorky kid with greenish hair while football players get the girls.

Then when some athletically-inclined, ex-football player type people get a little older they discover triathlon. They then discover that hey, actually this swimming business is kinda tough. Maybe it's something you have to work at to be good. Maybe some people have talent in this arena. I can't help but gloat watching some guy struggle through 1K yards with a crap stroke and way too much gear at the end of his lane struggle to hold 2:00/100 while studying some laminated workout card and wearing a wetsuit and $80 goggles. It's sad and pathetic but this pleases me.
Last edited by: hiro11: Jun 14, 18 6:56
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Re: Can we address the gorilla in the room? [hiro11] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, I shouldn't feel that way, but sometimes I can't help but feel a little smug. (but then I try to run and I'm quickly reminded that I'm a terrible athlete).

My gear bag these days consists of a speedo, 2 pair of TYR socket rockets, a couple of blue silicone caps, flip flops, a towel and a bottle of shampoo.

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Re: Can we address the gorilla in the room? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Twinkie wrote:
Can we please stop calling it "Adult Onset Swimmer"?
y

Fwiw USAT isn't looking around and saying "hey, here is a excellent running/biker let's teach them to swim" because it is just isn't efficient to do so. For the most part it is much easier to teach someone to be a great biker than it is to be a great swimmer. Learning basic things like speech and movement patterns are incredibly important things to do learn at a young age. Sure you can learn German at 30 but you are not going to Germany and fooling anyone that you are not from Germany. Swimming is a tough sport and I have witnessed this with my peers for a long time. The number of times, I have written off a certain triathlete because they can't swim is numerous. I also know how long and how much effort they are going to have to put in to make improvements and that affects their ability to train the run/bike.

You might not like the term but AOS is a real thing. I wouldn't be surprised to see it in medical textbooks real soon.

I think part of it also is how long the person was an athlete or if they were doing sports consistently up until they started Tris. I couldn’t swim worth a shit when I started I think my first oly tri was around 43 mins, within a year or two I was consistently around 24-24 and I think I had a 23 swim one year. The difference was a hell of a lot of time in the pool. I wasn’t doing anything special just swimming a lot. But I also was straight out of hockey where doing 6 different things at once I just part on playing so I think if you’re used to that swimming becomes a lot easier.

But yeah even now when I’m not racing much at all I go I just need to get down to xx pace because any lower the other racers are either going to be a rockstars overall or they’re just a former swimmer and I’ll blow by them on the bike. Because you just know the vast number of people can’t swim that fast.
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Re: Can we address the gorilla in the room? [tttiltheend] [ In reply to ]
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tttiltheend wrote:
lightheir wrote:
I agree with the OP for the most part. Def for the typical AG-triathlete - start in youth does NOT make a shred of difference. It's ALL about working hard and consistently as an adult.


This quote is from the same guy that rejects the advice that both technique and fitness are very important in swimming, and says over and over again that your power is much more important than your technique once you get a basic level of technique. This is based on his N-1 experience that leads him to reject the advice given by pretty much anyone here that actually knows what they're talking about.

FWIW, I see this effect to an even greater level in downhill skiing, which I've done since I was four. It's almost unheard of for someone that comes to the sport as an adult to ever achieve the highest levels of expert technique. They can become pretty proficient, but usually that's about it. Sure, some of it is the extra time that the young starters had, but there's really no doubt it's a significant advantage to have those skills ingrained at an early age.

Sorry, but for the typical age-group triathlete, power IS wayyy more important in swimming than technique, once you're flat in the water and past that raw beginner level. Note I've always emphasized age-group triathlete, which is the (vast) majority of folks participating on these forums.

I would not go to an elite swim forum where folks are trying to squeeze 0.2 seconds/100 off their swim times, and tell them the same thing, especially when they are hitting near-maximal levels of swim training.

But seriously, you tell me how much the typical age-group triathlete swims for training on AVERAGE (not peak). It's a pittance. And when you see all these videos posted online (literally all of them) of self-swim analysis, and ask why they're not going sub 1:15/100, lack of power in the stroke is far and away the limiting factor.

I've noticed as well that in the past year or two, it seems that most folks agree with me, at least in their critiques of online videos as well as recs to MOP swimmers trying to improve. The first comments used to be tons of stuff about the details of the pull, head position, body alignment, all of which is good stuff, but all of which will not get you to even MOP when your stroke rate is less than 1 every 1.5 seconds, and you're just pawing gently at the water. I think a lot of this change has been due to the number of high-level coaches that now like Trisutto that take a totally different approach than elite swim coaches, and who tell their triathletes (even pros!) to 'just swim - a LOT. Even if this means using buoys, snorkles, and paddles on a regular basis. Don't sweat the small stuff - get out there, hammer those sets so you can deal with all the variety of OWS conditions, and you'll rock.'

I don't disagree that there is an advantage to ingraining skills early, sometimes very early, but it's a fallacy to think that an early start gives kids such a unbeatable advantage that adult swimmers can never catch up. The big reason why kids who swam competitively all through youth, then dominate adult-onset triathlete swimmers, is that they were the talented few who were weeded out year by year so that the wheat has separated from the chaff. THAT is the big reason they can crush AOS-swimmers. Youth motor skills give an advantage yes, but compared to the multiyear selection process of youth competitive swimming, it's not even close.

When I distinguish AOS swimmers vs competitive youth swimmers, THAT is the advantage I'm referring to - someone who has clearly proven to be good and talented enough in swimming in youth that they didn't drop out when the competition kicked in for a few years. If we had running leagues or cycling leagues like that, I would expect it to play out the same. Heck, even if you take high school x-country runners (who are MUCH less selected than swimmers given youth swimming vs lack of youth running leagues) that actually score for their team on varsity, 5ks in 18:xx are pedestrian and almost slow, whereas for the typical AG triathlete that would be considered very fast. Selection is huge.
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Re: Can we address the gorilla in the room? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
tttiltheend wrote:
lightheir wrote:
I agree with the OP for the most part. Def for the typical AG-triathlete - start in youth does NOT make a shred of difference. It's ALL about working hard and consistently as an adult.


This quote is from the same guy that rejects the advice that both technique and fitness are very important in swimming, and says over and over again that your power is much more important than your technique once you get a basic level of technique. This is based on his N-1 experience that leads him to reject the advice given by pretty much anyone here that actually knows what they're talking about.


I'm pretty much an outlier when it comes to proficiency achieved among AOSs, but I'm nowhere near the swimming levels of my friends who swam as kids. In addition, I know a number of AOS triathletes who work hard and consistently in the pool who will never approach even my level of swimming, no matter how hard they train.

To be an excellent swimmer, you need a good level of proprioception. Those who have it as kids will continue to swim through the AG ranks; those who don't, won't. Having good proprioception will allow some level of success as an AOS; I believe that developing good proprioception when young is key to having it as an adult. That means doing skill sports that require knowledge of where your body is in relation to everything else and being able to make changes based on said feedback (soccer, tennis, basketball, wrestling, etc.). Running XC won't do it.


I would have to agree with this to some degree. I was a gymnast from age 2 until about 18. Overlapped this with diving and dove in college. I got in the gym the other day at 29 and hadn't tumbled for 8 years and could still do double fulls, double backs, front handspring punch front front handspring full. I have better spacial awareness at 30 then most anyone has. This is TREMENDOUSLY helped me in every sport I have ever played due to knowing exactly where each part of my body is at exactly what time and how each little movement of seemingly unrelated body parts will effect my body as a whole.

HOWEVER - I cannot entirely translate that to swimming. You are in an entirely new environment relative to every other sport with a resistance medium (water). The only thing that has carried through is my flexibility which is beneficial but I don't find I need to know spacial awareness to swim as one would in say hurdles, wrestling, soccer, pole vault, snowboarding, etc.
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Re: Can we address the gorilla in the room? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
tttiltheend wrote:
lightheir wrote:
I agree with the OP for the most part. Def for the typical AG-triathlete - start in youth does NOT make a shred of difference. It's ALL about working hard and consistently as an adult.


This quote is from the same guy that rejects the advice that both technique and fitness are very important in swimming, and says over and over again that your power is much more important than your technique once you get a basic level of technique. This is based on his N-1 experience that leads him to reject the advice given by pretty much anyone here that actually knows what they're talking about.

FWIW, I see this effect to an even greater level in downhill skiing, which I've done since I was four. It's almost unheard of for someone that comes to the sport as an adult to ever achieve the highest levels of expert technique. They can become pretty proficient, but usually that's about it. Sure, some of it is the extra time that the young starters had, but there's really no doubt it's a significant advantage to have those skills ingrained at an early age.


Sorry, but for the typical age-group triathlete, power IS wayyy more important in swimming than technique, once you're flat in the water and past that raw beginner level. Note I've always emphasized age-group triathlete, which is the (vast) majority of folks participating on these forums.

I would not go to an elite swim forum where folks are trying to squeeze 0.2 seconds/100 off their swim times, and tell them the same thing, especially when they are hitting near-maximal levels of swim training.

But seriously, you tell me how much the typical age-group triathlete swims for training on AVERAGE (not peak). It's a pittance. And when you see all these videos posted online (literally all of them) of self-swim analysis, and ask why they're not going sub 1:15/100, lack of power in the stroke is far and away the limiting factor.

tl;dr

I'll argue against that last bit: far and away the limiting factor is *not applying* power in their stroke, not a lack of power. Most people swimming 1:45+/100scy just aren't applying any power, because *their technique sucks*. All the time in the pool won't change that. A couple of sessions of doing it correctly will.

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Re: Can we address the gorilla in the room? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:

tl;dr

I'll argue against that last bit: far and away the limiting factor is *not applying* power in their stroke, not a lack of power. Most people swimming 1:45+/100scy just aren't applying any power, because *their technique sucks*. All the time in the pool won't change that. A couple of sessions of doing it correctly will.

what ken said.

I regularly see big strong dudes show up to lane swim who simply suck in the water compared to the 12 y/o girls on the AG swim team. Their issue isn't lack of power, it's an inability to correctly apply power when and where it's needed, in the right direction.

It's a fallacy to separate technique from fitness. They're inextricably linked.

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Re: Can we address the gorilla in the room? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
lightheir wrote:
tttiltheend wrote:
lightheir wrote:
I agree with the OP for the most part. Def for the typical AG-triathlete - start in youth does NOT make a shred of difference. It's ALL about working hard and consistently as an adult.


This quote is from the same guy that rejects the advice that both technique and fitness are very important in swimming, and says over and over again that your power is much more important than your technique once you get a basic level of technique. This is based on his N-1 experience that leads him to reject the advice given by pretty much anyone here that actually knows what they're talking about.

FWIW, I see this effect to an even greater level in downhill skiing, which I've done since I was four. It's almost unheard of for someone that comes to the sport as an adult to ever achieve the highest levels of expert technique. They can become pretty proficient, but usually that's about it. Sure, some of it is the extra time that the young starters had, but there's really no doubt it's a significant advantage to have those skills ingrained at an early age.


Sorry, but for the typical age-group triathlete, power IS wayyy more important in swimming than technique, once you're flat in the water and past that raw beginner level. Note I've always emphasized age-group triathlete, which is the (vast) majority of folks participating on these forums.

I would not go to an elite swim forum where folks are trying to squeeze 0.2 seconds/100 off their swim times, and tell them the same thing, especially when they are hitting near-maximal levels of swim training.

But seriously, you tell me how much the typical age-group triathlete swims for training on AVERAGE (not peak). It's a pittance. And when you see all these videos posted online (literally all of them) of self-swim analysis, and ask why they're not going sub 1:15/100, lack of power in the stroke is far and away the limiting factor.


tl;dr

I'll argue against that last bit: far and away the limiting factor is *not applying* power in their stroke, not a lack of power. Most people swimming 1:45+/100scy just aren't applying any power, because *their technique sucks*. All the time in the pool won't change that. A couple of sessions of doing it correctly will.


And I'll agree to disagree with you on that most AG triathletes have a problem of applying power, not power itself.

WHen you're talking most triathletes, even thing big buffed ones, they have a power generation problem. They can't maintain that power over the race distance. Sure, they also have some signficant power application problems, but it pales in comparison to their lack of power, period.

Just go on this very forum and look at all the self-videos for swim critique. There are literally zero videos where you look at it, and can say, "woah - you're quite powerful in the water but you're thrashing it all away.' Whereas every single video shown has some swimmer who looks like they are almost on a leisure cruise, gently paddling away, with no urgency, and no frequency, none of them hitting cadences of 100+.

Take those so called-powerful folks who can't swim fast at all you claim to know - I challenge you to have them maintain 100 spm for a full hour. I dont even care if they are fugly, awful, energy-wasting strokes - they just have to have a reasonable range of motion (more than just a 6 inch doggy paddle). Literally none of them will close to surviving it - I'll bet none of them will even hit the 15 minute mark. Power isn't just being able to pull a huge load for 5 strokes - it is holding force over time, same as cycling with a higher cadence. We all should be wise enough to know now that hugeness of muscles does not matter in triathlon endurance, whether it be swim, bike, or run. AListair brownlee, Lucy Charles, etc. - none of these elites are 'buff', but all of them are super powerful in the water.

What I will say, though is that there are a few super talented folks who can pull hard, and pull well, on little training. They are rare, but so are 7+ foot tall NBA players who do in fact exist. Klehner, do us a favor and tell us about your swim background and how long it took for you to get faster than 1:20/100, and please focus on any youth training secrets, as well as the technical secrets and breakthroughs you made early that should be eminently transferable to the typical AGer to get 75% of the speed you have.
Last edited by: lightheir: Jun 14, 18 7:50
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Re: Can we address the gorilla in the room? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
And I'll agree to disagree with you on that most AG triathletes have a problem of applying power, not power itself.

WHen you're talking most triathletes, even thing big buffed ones, they have a power generation problem. They can't maintain that power over the race distance. Sure, they also have some signficant power application problems, but it pales in comparison to their lack of power, period.

Just go on this very forum and look at all the self-videos for swim critique. There are literally zero videos where you look at it, and can say, "woah - you're quite powerful in the water but you're thrashing it all away.' Whereas every single video shown has some swimmer who looks like they are almost on a leisure cruise, gently paddling away, with no urgency, and no frequency, none of them hitting cadences of 100+.

Take those so called-powerful folks who can't swim fast at all you claim to know - I challenge you to have them maintain 100 spm for a full hour. I dont even care if they are fugly, awful, energy-wasting strokes - they just have to have a reasonable range of motion (more than just a 6 inch doggy paddle). Literally none of them will close to surviving it - I'll bet none of them will even hit the 15 minute mark. Power isn't just being able to pull a huge load for 5 strokes - it is holding force over time, same as cycling with a higher cadence.

What I will say, though is that there are a few super talented folks who can pull hard, and pull well, on little training. They are rare, but so are 7+ foot tall NBA players who do in fact exist. Klehner, do us a favor and tell us about your swim background and how long it took for you to get faster than 1:20/100, and please focus on any youth training secrets, as well as the technical secrets and breakthroughs you made early that should be eminently transferable to the typical AGer to get 75% of the speed you have.


Well, I can't do that, so I'm not sure what your point is. I don't get anywhere close to 100 spm when sprinting, let alone for distance swimming.

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Last edited by: JasoninHalifax: Jun 14, 18 7:54
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Re: Can we address the gorilla in the room? [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]
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Twinkie wrote:
HOWEVER - I cannot entirely translate that to swimming. You are in an entirely new environment relative to every other sport with a resistance medium (water). The only thing that has carried through is my flexibility which is beneficial but I don't find I need to know spacial awareness to swim as one would in say hurdles, wrestling, soccer, pole vault, snowboarding, etc.

Four things are needed to achieve success as an AOS:

1) knowing what you are actually doing
2) knowing what you should be doing
3) knowing what you need to do to change what you are actually doing to what you should be doing
4) the ability to apply that knowledge to body motion

All the proprioception ( 4) above) in the world won't help if you don't have the other three. Video of yourself addresses the first, video/study of the correct technique addresses the second, and the guidance of a knowledgeable coach addresses the third. You then apply (with varying levels of success) the last.

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Re: Can we address the gorilla in the room? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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every time anyone gets video of themselves for the first time, the immediate reaction is "Wow, I look like THAT!!!" There is a massive disconnect between what we think we are doing and what we actually do.

to lightheir, when you get on the VASA, are you just pulling any which way, or are you conscious of "how" you are pulling?

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Can we address the gorilla in the room? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I swam age 8-18 and played water polo age 13-20. Also ran track 3-8th grade. Swimmers have different bodies than runners and cyclists. I relearned that when making a return to masters swimming two years ago at age 46. I immediately gained 10 lbs. of muscle in shoulders, arms, lats and upper back – which is absolutely no help on bike and run, and hard to lose. It also took months of swimming to regain enough ankle flexibility to kick with power – painfully aware of that when returning to running in Spring.

The muscle memory I gained from years of swimming is enough for me to finish pretty high up in the swim leg of a tri on technique alone. When I run, however, I look an awful lot like a swimmer – in pics and on the clock.
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Re: Can we address the gorilla in the room? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
every time anyone gets video of themselves for the first time, the immediate reaction is "Wow, I look like THAT!!!" There is a massive disconnect between what we think we are doing and what we actually do.

to lightheir, when you get on the VASA, are you just pulling any which way, or are you conscious of "how" you are pulling?

I pay close attention to 'how' I pull, both on Vasa and in the pool. It's actually fairly easy to do a wrong pull on a Vasa with a huge dropped elbow, so you have to watch for it.

Contrary to what it seems, I pay tons of attention to my technique. I'm just realistic that it's only going to get me very little compared to improving my swim engine as I'm not a powerful swimmer already.
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Re: Can we address the gorilla in the room? [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]
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Twinkie wrote:
Can we please stop calling it "Adult Onset Swimmer"?

Hello, my name is Twinkie, and I have Type 2 swimmer.
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Re: Can we address the gorilla in the room? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
every time anyone gets video of themselves for the first time, the immediate reaction is "Wow, I look like THAT!!!" There is a massive disconnect between what we think we are doing and what we actually do.

to lightheir, when you get on the VASA, are you just pulling any which way, or are you conscious of "how" you are pulling?


I pay close attention to 'how' I pull, both on Vasa and in the pool. It's actually fairly easy to do a wrong pull on a Vasa with a huge dropped elbow, so you have to watch for it.

Contrary to what it seems, I pay tons of attention to my technique. I'm just realistic that it's only going to get me very little compared to improving my swim engine as I'm not a powerful swimmer already.

Which is my point. Its all linked. You are doing the some of most important technique work (i.e. pulling properly) and ingraining that into muscle memory, and if memory serves you have improved quite a bit with that strategy. if you weren't focusing at all on the "how" and just pulling as hard as you could, I guarantee you would not have seen the same improvement even though your raw power would still have increased.

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Can we address the gorilla in the room? [STP] [ In reply to ]
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STP wrote:
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So you’re arguing the theory of evolution then?


Not so much evolution, although "natural selection" is at play. There is enough competitive swimming opportunities for kids in the US that a decent chunk of those kids who have real talent do get exposed enough to have an opportunity to give it a try. And when you factor in the demographics of where most triathletes come from, those who take up swimming later in life have a decent chance of not just having missed out on swimming as a youth by chance but they had actually have a decent chance of having chosen NOT to do it.

My point real point though was that in comparing oneself to adults who swam competitively as kids and wondering why you are not as fast as them, we're not giving them enough credit for both their talent AND the work they have put in. There are kids who suck at swimming. Lots of them (I used to coach young age groupers so I know of what I speak). But most of those kids are out of the sport by the time they are 10 or so. Youth competitive swimming in the US is a highly structured, extremely competitive environment that casts a fairly wide net. Youth swimming in the US is big, it is well coached at all levels and "the system" ends up being very very good at finding and developing talent. (The US does not win all those Olympic swimming medals by accident). So, anyone who participated in that system at any level for more than a couple years likely does have at least some talent (i.e. extreme swim talent by triathlon standards ;-) and they definitely have received good coaching. And the longer one stays in the system, the more one gets out of it.

No one would take up softball at 35 and, playing on the company team, wonder why they were not as good as their office mate who played baseball through high school much less if he had played 2 years of pro minor league baseball after college. But somehow with swimming, it is some kind of mysterious syndrome if you can't do the equivalent of hitting a decent curve ball or throwing an 80 mph fastball within 6 months after picking up a baseball for the first time .

You all need to stop being so hard on yourselves. Just keep working and you will get faster. But you probably have to be working quite a bit harder than you currently are.

Great post. It's sometimes interesting when people complain about pro athletes (baseball, football, etc.) when they say they just got paid $xxx,xxx for a game, or an hour of play, etc. Somehow people forget all the hours they put in during their youth. Of course; showing how smart I am - I've trained a zillion hours for that big triathlon payday :-| (seems I've somehow misplaced that check from the last race I did)

should'da took up golf as a kid.

I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________
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Re: Can we address the gorilla in the room? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
Twinkie wrote:

HOWEVER - I cannot entirely translate that to swimming. You are in an entirely new environment relative to every other sport with a resistance medium (water). The only thing that has carried through is my flexibility which is beneficial but I don't find I need to know spacial awareness to swim as one would in say hurdles, wrestling, soccer, pole vault, snowboarding, etc.


Four things are needed to achieve success as an AOS:

1) knowing what you are actually doing
2) knowing what you should be doing
3) knowing what you need to do to change what you are actually doing to what you should be doing
4) the ability to apply that knowledge to body motion

All the proprioception ( 4) above) in the world won't help if you don't have the other three. Video of yourself addresses the first, video/study of the correct technique addresses the second, and the guidance of a knowledgeable coach addresses the third. You then apply (with varying levels of success) the last.

good list - I'll add a 5th. As an AOS who is usually first out of the water in my AG and have been asked many times "who did you swim for in college?" (sorry for the BDB, but, it's true).

#5 is Work, and I define that as suffering and letting the skills form from doing fast stuff - then stringing that speed out to longer and longer distances.

OK, I'll add a 5b, Tim Sheeper wrote a thing here on ST years ago (guess it's gone now) about triathletes need to learn to love swimming, and not make it something they "have" to do. I know Tim, but, knew this before he wrote that. I truly enjoy the feeling of being in the water, noticing little differences in hand position, even the feeling on the top of my feet as I kick (a kick which stinks, BTW). At a race, I look out to the buoys so excited to see what's out there. All the above said - I'm getting older and am finding hitting times are either difficult or, impossible. Which is depressing.

I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________
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Re: Can we address the gorilla in the room? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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Cycling is a highly constrained motion. Swimming is highly unconstrained. You could put that gorilla on a bike, and he'd pretty much nail the technique.

Sure, there are swimmers who are just doing the equivalent of pedaling a bike and that level of technique is actually enough to do OK in a tri swim.

But that gorilla analogy only goes so far. A gorilla is never going to be bombing through the last corner of a Cat 1-2 crit in a tight pack setting himself up for the field sprint. If you are comparing cycling to swimming, that is the equivalent level of skill, experience, fitness and talent a good high school swimmer has.
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