Here's my favorite swimming workout video. It's from the Longhorns varsity / post-grad mid-distance & sprinters a few years ago. The main set is really tough: it's something like 3K yards in less than 40 minutes. There are lots of famous swimmers. Eddie Reese is such a great coach. Look at some of the times Ricky Berens pulls in this set: 2:36 on the last 300, 48.4 on the last 100... from a push.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAtIH0v-MY8

Watching this video, you start to understand the fitness it takes to be elite swimmer and the talent that you need to possess.

I don't question Vendt's killer set. If his best 1000 time was 8:30-ish then doing 10 min ave send-offs doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility.

-leh//

But you are a swimmer, and that is not what they are saying. What if they said he did one on the 8;30 and one one the 11;30, 10 minute average and only two of them. But completely impossible. You cannot look at the average here, but the outlier super fast intervals. Two on the 9;30 and several more on the 9;45 bracketing those really fast ones. Like i said, i believe it could have happened this way, but 95% of me says that something fishy has been handed down since that workout. And it appears he did it when he was not even at his prime, so makes it even that much harder to believe.


But great discussion from a lot of the experienced fishes here. Wont be the first time a monster workout became a fish tale. And i think the only one that does know what happened that day is Erik himself. He would remember this for sure, unless he was just one of those guys that swam and let the coach do all the math. But knowing top level swimmers, have to guess not..

The point should be obvious. Your version of the "truth" and Chip's version of the truth comes from the same source. Why is one more believable than another? To extend the Olive Branch may I suggest:

1) Erik Vendt was one of the most amazing practice swimmers of all time.
2) Erik undoubtedly swam 30 x 1000 as a teenager under the tutelage of Josh Stern.
3) This story has grown to mythical proportions, we all get to choose which version is accurate.

I choose to believe the 10:45 / 10:30 / 10:15 version because I heard it for many years and it is what I originally read just a few years after it happened. Though honestly I have probably "believed" the 30 @ 10:00 at times too because memories get foggy and that version of the set has been published a lot in reason years. I think the reason that the set has gotten faster overtime is because people forget that Vendt did this as a teenager. This very thread shows cleaving of Erik Vendt 14:45 1500M swimmer with the teenager who did this set. The 10:45 / 10:30 / 10:15 set is as much a testament to his will power than swim prowess. And because will power and mental fortitude is vastly underrated and hard to quantify the story has turned into the physical triumph has grown...

I have enjoyed this discussion a lot.

Depending on the size of the hole, that's either REALLY impressive or not actually that meaningful.

I've done quite a lot of swimming with drag chutes. I bought one chute from Australia. It was quite expensive. Very bells and whistles. But even at its hardest setting, it just wasn't that hard. But it looked very impressive. On the flipside, I have a dinky little Stretchcordz parachute that doesn't look like much, but which is VERY hard, because it has NO hole at all.

A 20 gallon bucket is HUGE. Most - if not all - of the swimmers I've ever seen using a bucket for training use a 5gal bucket.

I'd actually submit that there is likely no meaningful difference between 5gal and 20gal. The difficulty in swimming with a bucket or a parachute or whatever is entirely dependent on how big the entrance is and how big the exit - if there is one - is. If the guys pulling the bucket were still swimming kind of fast - and even simply able to swim 25k with a bucket, I'd submit that it just wasn't that much additional drag. But it sure sounds impressive...

This is the great irony about epic training threads. There's rarely - if ever - any correlation between the training and the results. I remember a favorite story that Slowman liked to tell about Brad Kearns and Andrew McNaughton, who one time rode their bikes from where Andrew lived out in Thousand Oaks out to Tehachapi (something like that anyway). It was a monstrous ride, with very little in the way of aid en route. Dan tells this story as an example of, "Now see, pro triathletes back in the day. They knew how to train. That's why they went so fast!"

But, i am actually good friends with Andrew. So I asked him about this. And he said, "that was easily the stupidest training session Brad and I ever did. We were sick for a few weeks afterwards, could hardly train, and definitely did ourselves more harm than good."

In my experience having been around a variety of Olympic gold medalists in different sports, their training is typically very mundane. Most of these guys do not do training sessions that leave you scratching your head and wondering, "how did they do that." It's the ability to back up hard - but not insane - training day after day after day after day after day.

Epic training sessions are great for internet threads. They rarely, in my experience, translate into results.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

That's exactly why they're talked about in revered, hushed tones. Because it is a ridiculously stupid thing to do, if you just measure it by training effect. It sets you back days, if not weeks, in your regular training program.

However, everyone has done the "stupid" set. Not to the level that Vendt (allegedly) did it, but we've all done something that is simply a "character building" set. and that makes it fun. The kids won't remember what time they made for the 18th repeat of feb 6th's 2nd set of 20 x 100 on 1:15. But they do remember the time that coach made them swim a 6000 IM. or 10 x 200 fly.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

30x1000 is a stunt, not a training set.

And, when the hot shot local high school team does a set of 100x100 one day over Christmas Break it too is a stunt, not really a training set. Same with somebody popping off an epic 150 mile ride (ideally in bad weather with other random difficulties popping up as well . . .).

But, stunts can be a great mental booster, particularly when done in groups. Training can get boring and swim training is more boring than most. Everybody has to have a little fun now and then trying to convince themselves they are a bad ass to keep spirits up. And, when word gets around about the epic stunts, it does give one a slight psychological edge over those folks who did not have the balls to try stunts of their own.

The 10:45/10:30/10:15 set is as much a testament to his will power as his swim prowess. And because will power and mental fortitude are vastly underrated and hard to quantify, the story of his physical triumph has grown...

THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I am rather proud of that line : )

That set is def hard core. Longest i've ever done to date is 12 x 1000 scy free. Last year i averaged 53,000 yd/wk doing the USMS Go The Distance Challenge and my arms, and legs cause i kicked a lot, are still recovering from all those yards:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I've did that several times on the 1:20 back in high school. Not too bad. Also, it's hardly a "stunt". It builds team spirit and becomes a marker in the season. Makes you hungry as hell, if I remember correctly.

Just from my own experience (and I have not done 20 x 1000 but have done 5000 fly, 16000 swims etc) I used to be able to crank out repeat 1000s pretty easily on an 11 minute send-off dropping down to sub 10:30 on my fastest one on a good day. My best time, shaved and tapered, was only 10:08. So if one was on 9:30 and his best time was 8:30 that doesn't seem that incredible. I would think he would be able to do 3 in a row, at least, on a send-off that is a minute slower than his best time. Doing 20 of them NO WAY but a couple in the middle of a set? Sure, I believe that.

-leh

Very cool that he's back swimming again. Looking at the FINA WRs, he must have gone 4:49 as the current WR is 4:48.02; pretty quick for anyone but espec a 50 yr old guy:)

Also, I happened to notice that the FINA masters WRs start with the 25-29 AG so apparently the 18-24 is just in the U.S. and maybe a few other countries like Canada. Was not aware of this.

ETA: Looked up the USMS records and he holds the 45-49 record at 4:43.64 set in Sept 2010, and a David Sims holds the 50-54 at 4:49.49, set on 14 Dec 2014.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Well his best time was 8;37, shaved, tapered, from a dive, and in the cheater suit. And it was long after he supposedly did this set , so he was not nearly this fast at the time, in fact quite a bit slower. Someone pointed out he was in the low 4;20's for a 500 when he did this. . And they say he did two on the 9;30 with several more on the 9;45. And he did 30X1000, not 20X1000. So that is doing at the very least 1000's at 4;40 pace for a couple, and not too much slower for the 9;45 base. So if he was doing lets say 4;20 from a dive and tapered at the time he did this set, that is pretty dam close to his all out one pace for 60 X 500"s!!!

It is the hard efforts sprinkled in the set that make it hard. That and counting to 40 over and over and over and over . . .) Assuming he did not do more than a handful of the 30 are a truly hard effort, it is certainly plausible he could have averaged under 10 minutes for all 30. Plus the legion never mentions the slow one. If all he did was average 10:00 but he did some in the 930's, that means he had might have had some 10:20's in there too.

My guess based on 12 seconds of googling results would be he was around a 9:00 1000 swimmer late in high school. Some of the stated intervals were quick but some were almost a minute and half off his race pace. I was a decent distance swimmer but certainly not of Vendt's level (but high school Vendt only would have lapped me once ;-). Fortunately no one ever asked me to see how long I could swim at 1:00-1:30 over my 1000 race pace but I can tell you it would have been for a long time. Maybe not 5 hours but a couple hours. Now, I would have crashed and burned if I had done more than a couple at 30 seconds off race pace in a long set but, that was also one of the big differentiators between the OK folks and the great folks, i.e. the ability to repeat super hard efforts. But if all you wanted some decent distance guy or gal to do was make a send off interval that was 1:00 off race pace, most distance swimmers could do that for a fairly long time.

I was speaking to the veracity of the set, not the utility. But since you brought it up, I would disagree with some of the sentiments of your post. These epic sets are all part of the fuel of competition. To see if you can go farther, faster, longer or better than the other guy. It's a challenge. Especially if you are a world class athlete that has already put in a lot of training.

Also, in swimming sets like those, while highly infrequent, can get at something that is largely overlooked which is the mental durability/mental discipline that is needed to perform at a high level. I would agree that the training is very mundane and, in swimming, if you can improve by .5 to 1 second at the end of a very hard year then that is a huge accomplishment.

Lastly, this is just for fun. And I'll send you a picture of the bucket. 20+ years ago we didn't have all the high tech equipment that you have to train. We made our own. That's where the bucket came from.

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

I actually disagree a lot with the part in bold. And, based on the apparent timing of this particular set in Vendt's career, I think it actually undermines the logic of that argument as well.

Very few - if any - people who ARE world class athletes do epic sets. That was part of my point. Many folks do them BEFORE they are world class, for precisely the reasons you mention - to see if you can. To see if you can go farther, faster, longer, and/or better than the other guy.

Once you are a world class athlete, you don't need to see if you can do that. You KNOW you can do that.

If you've already put in a lot of training, you don't need to see if you can do something stupid and epic. You've (probably) already done it.

But if you think you COULD BE world class, then yes. The dumbest stuff I ever did, I did as a rower. I've done my fair share of ridiculous workouts as a triathlete. Precisely to see if I could. Having done them, I'm not sure there are any that I'd say i should not have, but I also wouldn't say I got all that much out of them. Maybe some confidence. That sort of thing is hard to objectively quantify within yourself...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

That's ok. Reasonable people can disagree.

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

speak for yourself.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Rappstar: But if you think you COULD BE world class, then yes. The dumbest stuff I ever did, I did as a rower. I've done my fair share of ridiculous workouts as a triathlete. Precisely to see if I could. Having done them, I'm not sure there are any that I'd say i should not have, but I also wouldn't say I got all that much out of them. Maybe some confidence. That sort of thing is hard to objectively quantify within yourself...

AJThomas: The 10:45/10:30/10:15 set is as much a testament to his will power as his swim prowess. And because will power and mental fortitude are vastly underrated and hard to quantify, the story of his physical triumph has grown.

Jason in Halifax: That's exactly why they're talked about in revered, hushed tones. Because it is a ridiculously stupid thing to do, if you just measure it by training effect. It sets you back days, if not weeks, in your regular training program.

Snapping T: Also, in swimming sets like those, while highly infrequent, can get at something that is largely overlooked which is the mental durability/mental discipline that is needed to perform at a high level. I would agree that the training is very mundane and, in swimming, if you can improve by .5 to 1 second at the end of a very hard year then that is a huge accomplishment.

STP: But, stunts can be a great mental booster, particularly when done in groups. Training can get boring and swim training is more boring than most. Everybody has to have a little fun now and then trying to convince themselves they are a bad ass to keep spirits up. And, when word gets around about the epic stunts, it does give one a slight psychological edge over those folks who did not have the balls to try stunts of their own.

It seems that all five of you actually agree that doing "epic workouts" are a great way to build confidence. In the triathlon world, I've read that Dave Scott did a 6000 yd sw/112 mi bk/26.2 mi run all by himself back in 1980 before he ever won his first iron race. Most people on ST now would prob say that workout was a "big waste of time":)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I heard there was a pro triathlete that did a 15 x 1k set once... I think there was a bunch of IM in there, too. Sounds pretty EPIC. ;)

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Jason Pedersen
RunPd.com - Running as fast I can since '93
@jasonpedersen

Later this year I am going to do 30 x 1000.
Here is how I will do them:
10 x 1000 ascending- on 11:00, 11:05, 11:15, 11:30, 11:55, 12:30, 13:10, 13:30, 14:30 (that's 10 right?)
A short refueling break (2 hours)

5 x 1000s - on 15, 15:50, 17, 17:40, 19
A short chat with the lifeguard break - "no i wasn't really drowning"
Short pool change and car nap.
10 x 1000s 15, 16,17, 20, 26, 30
Get a taxi to drive me home.

That's 30 x 1000s on 11:00 right?
Or almost?

That is a great video, and only 8 min rather than the 40-ish i was expecting, but plenty of time to show the highlights of this set. Of course, great form for all of these guys:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

So, I was reading the latest issue of Swimming World magazine (July 2020) and came upon an article entitled "Aerobic Overload: Volume Revisited, Part 2", wherein 5 or 6 top swimmers discussed how high volume swimming had helped them become fast swimmers. Among these was Nathan Adrian who trained 100,000 yds/wk in his teen years despite being mainly a 50/100 swimmer, but of course 100K/wk is old hat, lots pf swimmers have done that kind of yardage. No, the most incredible part of Adrian's story though was not his training but rather his coach's training. In his teens Adrian was coached by Jay Benner who was a national class distance swimmer back in the 80s. In prep for the 1988 Oly Trials, Benner swam 180,000 LONG COURSE METERS PER WEEK FOR 8 MONTHS STRAIGHT. Let's think about that for a minute: if we assume 4000 meters/hr on average, then that is 45 hours per week of pure swimming. That's an average of about 6.5 hrs/day, 7 days/wk, for about 35 wks straight. Also, 3 days per week were 40,000 LCM PER DAY, with the other 4 days as "recovery days" at only 15,000 LCM/day. Holy frigging shot Batman, can you say sore shoulders??? Can you say back so sore you can't even flip turn???

Eric Vendt's 30 x 100 scy was certainly hugely epic, but this guy Benner was doing much more, day in and day out for 8 months. That is some real dedication. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Did he get to the Olympics though?

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Group Eleven – Websites for Athletes / mikael.racing / @mstaer

Unfortunately no, he did not as he finished 9th in 15:31 in the 1500 m prelims at the 1988 Trials. IMO though, this does not take anything away from his titanic effort. I just can't fathom swimming 180,000 LCM in one single week, let alone for 34-35 weeks straight. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."