Phelps is arguably the greatest swimmer of all time BUT he wasn't within cooee of ever being an elite distance freestyle swimmer. Anyway, had he tried to do the same, maybe he could have. The fact is he didn't (as far as we know). Vendt did - lots of witnesses - and the guy who set the set and took the times says it happened as posted. His exact words! I only took out the ''Hi Mitch'. You and others here might do a bit of triathlon and dabble in swimming but the guy telling the tale has coached a guy to Olympic silver behind..... Phelps!

His words taken from an email so he could have been reading from an old book. My experience with many coaches though is that their memory for splits of swimmers past far exceeds even their memory of birthdays and anniversaries. But I shall ask him in person. I'm sure he'll be amused at all the 'expert' swimming coaches out there who are saying it couldn't be done and his recollection is wrong.

Surely in the absence of disputing evidence such as a video, or scientific proof that it's physiologically not possible, the jury would have to accept the testimony of the acknowledged expert (the coach) who has a clean record, no priors, and who says on oath - this is the true version!

His words taken from an email so he could have been reading from an old book. My experience with many coaches though is that their memory for splits of swimmers past far exceeds even their memory of birthdays and anniversaries. But I shall ask him in person. I'm sure he'll be amused at all the 'expert' swimming coaches out there who are saying it couldn't be done and his recolection is wrong.

Surely in the absence of disputing evidence such as a video, or scientific proof that it's physiologicaly not possible, the jury would have to accept the testimony of the acknowledged expert (the coach) who has a clean record, no priors, and who says on oath - this is the true version!

ericmulk wrote:

And Carey was mainly known as a backstroker:) Also, did you not mean in the early 80s, rather than 90s???

You're thinking Rick Carey. I'm talking about Ray Carey:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Carey_%28swimmer%29

EDIT: sorry, just noticed people above already answered this. Also, as far as I know the Careys are not related. I grew up swimming against Ray.

Just want to address the above about Phelps not being an elite distance swimmer. He dabbled in the 400 free and was going under 3:50 in season. Because he didn't do it any opinion is as valid as the next but I think Phelps would have been under 14:45 if the 1500 had been his focus.

You don't spend much time on a swim deck. There is sometimes a guy who can tell you what so and so split on this relay or on this set or at this meet. That guy isn't usually the head coach. And a 4:24 500 freestyler is not remotely good enough to perform the set as you described.

Nope, your right. Watched more training sessions than I care to remember over the last 14 or 15 years (only because I actually enjoy watching and learning) and In competition I'm always up in the stands (or bleachers as you guys say) and with the electronic timing and big screens, everyone can see what the splits are. I'm pretty good at remembering my kids times but not splits and was a bit of a wiz working out relay splits so other parents would know. But I don't get the reference to me as I'm not the coach and this isn't MY TRUTH.

I think a question is when he did the 4:24, was it at a shaved and tapered meet? Both the 1997 and 1998 Spring Nationals were LCM, not SCY. So the question to me is whether he ever same a 500 in his high school years when he was actually rested for it.

For sake of argument, here are his results from '97 and '98 Spring Nationals:
'97: As a 16 year old
800FR: 8:25.05
400FR: 4:01.97
1500FR: 15:57.52

'98: As a 17 year old
800FR: 8:03.46
400IM: 4:23.19
400FR: 3:54.44 Which converts to a 4:22.67 500scy. So chances are he was faster than his best SCY 500 time.
1500FR: 15:30.65

But what I really was trying to say is that a lot of biking and running slows you down in the water!

Look, final comments
1. rcs430 was there and he confirms the set happened. He was in the pool training at the time.
He says: "So does the pace and times surprise me, no, Erik thrived on those types of sets. "
"Really just want to point out that I think it's possible",
"when it came to training sets with Erik, nothing really surprises me."
and finally "Do I know he did the set, yes, I remember that. Can I say with absolutely certainly all the details, nope, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were accurate."
2. So with respect, unless someone has a better direct relationship or understanding of this swimmer (eg was in his squad like rcs) or was there on the day and was taking splits (AJThomas?) and disputes this, then I think we have to give his opinion a little more weight than every other poster to this thread.
3. Josh was there and he was the coach. He confirmed it happened and he gave his version of how, why and some colour (food intake etc). He has zero to gain by embellishing. He does not strike me as a 'bragger', in fact he's the opposite.
4.Coaches take splits. They always do! It sounds like only two people in the world were likely there for the whole 5 hrs because as rcs says, the rest of the squad came in later - and one of those two was pretty busy swimming.
All this means that there is likely only one person who knows what the go times and splits were
AND that ladies and gentlemen is,,,,, the coach!
It's not really a big deal to me - I just wanted to take an opportunity to share the details of an interesting story that has graced the internet and has a few different versions. I know Josh reasonably well and I believe him.

I think it is bullshit. Well more likely just an innocent case of getting faster as the story gets older. Keep in mind, Jason, that this set is alleged to have occurred when Erik was a teenager. He was "only" a 4:24 in HS when he was swimming for Stern.

The toughest workout I ever heard of was 20 x 1,000 IM long course, not breaking stroke once. Not sure of the times, but it is impressive regardless.
Jerry Frentsos was a 1988 Olympic alternate in the 400 IM. 1987 his best time for the 400 IM was 4:26; He calculated that he needed to drop 6 seconds to qualify for the Olympics. He dropped 6 seconds and swam a 4:20 at trials. But when he touched the wall and looked up, he discovered that he was 3rd. He missed going to the Olympics by .18 seconds and became an alternate.
It took him 3 tries to finally complete that 20 x 1,000s IM workout and dropping 6 seconds in 1 year at that level is pretty much unheard of.

Looked up the 1988 Trials and you are absolutely correct as Frentsos finished 3rd in 4:20.41 behind Dave Wharton's 4:16.32 and Jeff Kostoff's 4:20.23. So, he had some really stiff competition in that event. IIRC, Wharton once did a 16,000 IM long course, and Kostoff did the 5 x 5000 scy on 50:00, so some extremely tough competition here:)

The main difference between Vendt and Flanangan/Potts is that Vendt is a swimmer (he is still a swimmer FYI I hear he might take a stab at the 10K ). When Flanagan was a "swimmer" in 2008 he beat Potts by quite a bit at Kona (48:40 / 47:02). When he turned pro triathlete the next year he couldn't out swim him. It is difficult to compare years and who knows what Potts would have done in '07 had Flanagan been there.

But what I really was trying to say is that a lot of biking and running slows you down in the water!