Hey, no worries. I probably would have done like you (and have), responding direct to someone else's post with some facts. But then another reader just reads your facts, reads, the thread title subset "doping live and well" and jumps to conclusions. I actually really liked your list because of the number of guys on that list that my path has crossed with in this sport, albeit they were always substantially faster than me. What is interesting is that "the fast guys have always been the fast guys", be it locally, regionally, nationally or internationally. The guys with a long pedigree of being fast, are still fast even though we all slowed down somewhat..the pecking order remains the same. I don't worry when I see Gilles Reboul, Pierre Heynemand or Jeff Fieldhack up there. These guys were always fast. I get more concerned when out of my own region, I see guys popping up off the couch after 5 years in the sport and suddenly making a massive jump in their 6th year after plateauing out in years 4-5. That 6th year jump at say age 48 sends out alarm bells. I am talking about guys that go: 12, 11:10, 10:40, 10:35, 10:33 and suddenly 9:40. Sure someone can lose 25 lbs and that could happen too.

Dev

Like I said you can waste your time worrying about others or worry about yourself....to each his own. I think in a one day event even a dude on PEDs can be beat.

Go to the 50-54 AG at this championship race if you want to see what doping can do. Worst part is that he admitted it and still has his name in the win here and the record for the AG. Ironman really needs to fix this;

http://www.ironman.com/...5.pdf?20060426110000

So are the guys 2nd and 3rd doped too? Their close to a doper...so they must be doped also...get my point.

2005 that's reaching back there....

I thought he admitted his doctor said he needed it for 7 years?

I can see why Joe threw up his hands and say I give racing against a person on drugs.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

When it comes to racing, at top events heck even down to your local events, I'd suggest that the lack of drafting enforcement plays a bigger role in the outcome of the finishers than doping does.

More of you on this thread have been bumped more often and further down the results sheet by drafting than doping.

You should focus your energy on figuring out the solution to AG drafting before doping.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

So are the guys 2nd and 3rd doped too? Their close to a doper...so they must be doped also...get my point.

2005 that's reaching back there…. //

I can almost guarantee you that 2nd was not doped. He had a long history of winning each AG he would enter, and had a nice long, slow declining curve in his performances, just what you would expect. That along with his very vocal anti drug stance, and he is Joe Bonness after all, well i think we can be safe in thinking he raced clean.

Now Moats, he got busted for drugs, admitted he was doing them back in 2005( the race i referenced) and got a one year ban only. My suspicion is that it goes a lot farther back than what he actually had to cop to once he got caught, but no way to prove that. We do know however that he was/is a serial cheater in every race he does as a non apologetic drafter. Where he got the moniker "Mirror Man". So i don't think in this case it is reaching back too far, since all the facts are in at least for that race forward on his performances. The should be wiped clean from the books, and the rightful owner slotted in their respective spots.

Neither doping or drafting is ever going to be fixed until the day comes where the perception that the risk of being caught at any time is high enough.

I don't know or care who joe is (the guys in his sixties now and over the hill or out of the sport). But you can't stated that he never cheated as a 100% fact....and yes ten years is a long time to claw back.

Once you start pointing fingers around where do you stop. Is it really that important in the big picture. I wish some of this hate of dopers would get focused on the crooks in DC.....they steal a lot more then a wooden IM dust collector.

Thanks for your view of the world.
That really opened my eyes.
Explains everything, doesn't it?

I think another wrinkle is that if some elite age group athletes or pro athletes start doping early in their career, then a phrase, such as they have been winning for years or have a tupical decline over the years, is meaningless, since their arc of achievement is just pushed higher from doping. It makes doped athletes look apparently clean. USADAs report showed some pro cyclists doping for their entire career or 15 plus years. Some recent USA cycling master racers who were banned had been crushing it for decades. When did those guys start to dope, who knows.... That's the whole problem, no one knows if anyone is clean.

 
>Neither doping or drafting is ever going to be fixed until the day comes where the perception that the risk of being caught at any time is high enough.

Depends on your definition of "fixed." Neither will ever go away completely. Both are about finding a balance between cost and effectiveness that are acceptable. Problem is that the majority of triathlon participants are..participants..and their experience isn't affected by cheating. So it's a vocal minority that cares. That minority did manage to get the 70.3 champs moved from Clearwater and some level of AG testing so they're not totally ineffectual.....

Really? Either I am blind, naive, or both.

In my 7 years of racing in my area, I've seen blatant drafting once, in the small local races, by some pros in a local sprint. No other time have I drafted, or seen anyone else draft.

Now I also don't count Ironman as a "local race." Yes, it's "local" but when you have 2000 races compared to 200, I find it different. So at Ironman, I do see much drafting, though often the course bottlenecks and the riders are forced into it.

So either I live in a nicer place, or I am blind/naive.

"Trust but verify"

Winning a KQ slot, you get to drug test. For the price of the race, that should be included in the registration fee. It would be ONE way WTC could make good on its promises to keep the sport clean.

cheers
S.

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// qui audet adipiscitur

I think another wrinkle is that if some elite age group athletes or pro athletes start doping early in their career, then a phrase, such as they have been winning for years or have a tupical decline over the years, is meaningless, since their arc of achievement is just pushed higher from doping. It makes doped athletes look apparently clean. USADAs report showed some pro cyclists doping for their entire career or 15 plus years. Some recent USA cycling master racers who were banned had been crushing it for decades. When did those guys start to dope, who knows.... That's the whole problem, no one knows if anyone is clean./

I agree with everything you said here, and of course many will be in that boat. Personally I'm pretty sure Joe is not one of those. But my larger point was that we have an admitted and convicted doper in this category(long term AG doping) and yet, his records and wins still stand over the period "HE ADMITS" to doping. That is wrong.

"Trust but verify"

Winning a KQ slot, you get to drug test. For the price of the race, that should be included in the registration fee. It would be ONE way WTC could make good on its promises to keep the sport clean.

cheers
S.[/quote]
darn, you beat me to it (the quote from Ronald Reagan), I'd think a letter to KQ'ers sent out that says something like...

During the months of August and Sept. xx% of registered participants will be tested. When selected you will be asked to provide your location, blah blah blah.

It will be interesting to see if the quantity of "drop outs" to Kona, and/or people attempting to KQ would be different.

Problem with the above is that it's not really in the interest of the event organizer to do this (from one marketing perspective), though, I would argue, it could be used as a positive marketing tool as well.

I'd be flattered if I got tested.

I suspect someday, technology will be able to inexpensively trace PED use backwards much, much further than we can go currently.

Until the above happens - I will continue to assume goodwill about the guys that are faster than me. I find it less destructive to myself to not obsesses about what I can't change. And, use their awesome speed as a motivator to train and race ever closer to my true capability (I DO have a lot of room for improvement - at least that's what I keep telling myself).

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I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________

"Trust but verify"

Winning a KQ slot, you get to drug test. For the price of the race, that should be included in the registration fee. It would be ONE way WTC could make good on its promises to keep the sport clean.

cheers
S.[/quote]
From what I understand, many Kona AG winners ARE pulled in for a drug test straight after the race (someone can correct me if I'm wrong), so WTC is paying some lip service to the issue. But in reality this is not an effective drug policy and they know it. As I've said before, only a complete moron would turn up to Kona 'hot', so testing at the event itself is useless. Some kind of random pool system is the only way to go. I like the idea of agreeing to random testing when you sign up for an IM, saying that you want to be eligible for Kona qualifying and, as such, you are aregeeing to someone potentially turning up on your doorstep randomly and asking you to pee in a cup. Maybe you already agree to this in the small print when you sign up for an IM, or join USAT - I'm not sure - thoug clearly no-one really believes it's actually going to happen. Of course there are still immense practical problems with this...cost, logistics etc., to say nothing of the fact that WTC really doesn't want to deter people from the sport via an over-zealous drug policy that turns people off, either by shining a spotlight on the problem, or by annoying those who resent the idea of random tests at their home.

I don't see why at KQ races with slots that there can't be some kind of on site setup that once you accept your slot (they sure are happy to take your fee at that time aren't they?) you walk over to Medical and there you go.

cheers
S.

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// qui audet adipiscitur

same problem... if you know that to accept a Kona slot you will need to pee in a cup, you're not going to show up to the race 'hot'. You understand EPO is only detectable for a couple of days, right? Only random, out-of-competition testing would catch AG dopers.

Just saying that if we can't agree on the right test at the right time then lets start with some low hanging fruit: KQ'ers, give us your word, publicly, that you race clean! If you can't stand in front of your peers and say that then don't take the slot.

Is nobody paying attention? If you are a member of USATriathlon, you can be tested out-of-competition at any time:


WTC need not add any threatening letters to Kona qualifiers or anyone else.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I agree with your reply, too and I am not implying anything about Joe, hence why I didn't write any specific names. That being said, and completely unrelated to any AG athletes, I remember reading about a couple pro cycling athletes who have been on anti-doping committees/ambassadors for anti-doping, who later test positive!

This is great on paper, but completely useless in practice, and they even say in the quote "testing of age-group athletes is not common". Talk about waving a white flag! So yes, WTC could be doing more, as could USAT. Targeting a few pointy-end athletes for random OOC testing would be a start, and publicising this testing and the results on their websites and in USAT's magazine would help too. Anything to increase the perception that, as an AG athlete, you might face a random test. Because right now, the perception is that the only way you will be tested is by winning your AG at Kona or the Nationals, and that's not a drug policy, it's just paying lip service.

But again, neither USAT or WTC have a vested interest in busting a bunch of AGers. It could be damaging to the popularity of the sport.

I am paying attention and do know the above - I just think things would be a bit different if they removed the word "not" between is and common. And, actually did what I suggested. In the current world; for all practical purposes (de facto) - no AG'er believes they'll be tested, why, because so very few really have (I've got a better chance of winning the big lottery). I'd suspect even one year of August-Sept. testing would set a precedent, and put the fear into enough people to maybe, maybe, actually change behavior. Kinda like having a speed limit sign up, but, no cops ever enforcing it. A coupla days of cops writing tickets, and, low and behold more folks are now going the speed limit.

---

I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________

darn, you beat me to it (the quote from Ronald Reagan), I'd think a letter to KQ'ers sent out that says something like...

During the months of August and Sept. xx% of registered participants will be tested. When selected you will be asked to provide your location, blah blah blah.

It will be interesting to see if the quantity of "drop outs" to Kona, and/or people attempting to KQ would be different.

Problem with the above is that it's not really in the interest of the event organizer to do this (from one marketing perspective), though, I would argue, it could be used as a positive marketing tool as well.

I'd be flattered if I got tested.

I suspect someday, technology will be able to inexpensively trace PED use backwards much, much further than we can go currently.

Until the above happens - I will continue to assume goodwill about the guys that are faster than me. I find it less destructive to myself to not obsesses about what I can't change. And, use their awesome speed as a motivator to train and race ever closer to my true capability (I DO have a lot of room for improvement - at least that's what I keep telling myself).[/quote]

I think this can definitely be used as a positive marketing tool. I can see if top pros get nailed doping then our tiny sport that already has sponsorship issues will look even less attractive, but if WTC is nailing a variety of nameless age groupers and thereby showing it is "serious" about dope control, then it comes out looking good.

It's kind of like the IOC which does not want NHL Hockey players at the winter Olympics getting a dope bust....neither the IOC nor NHL want that....but it's fine to show you are "serious" by nailing a random skeleton athlete, or a snow boarder who inhaled second hand marijuana smoke.