I'm always surprised when folks are surprised that this is happening in the age group ranks. It's very much alive and well. There is a testerone clinic barely 100 yards from the IM Texas transition area. I drive by there on my way to work most mornings. It's not uncommon to see one or more cars in the parking lot with M-Dot stickers.

I guess we shouldn't be surprised, because cheaters will be cheaters.

But I find it a little silly... I mean. It's not like AG'ers race for large prize purses or anything... so what the point?

In some ways, I feel like the joke is on them. Heh.

For those of us in the senior ranks, and who don't dope, you can add that to the reasons we won't get a KQ. I have my suspicions about a number of folks but it is what it is. Fortunately, the Legacy route has offered an escape valve.

Boy do I agree. But luckily for me, it seems that maybe that most that are doing this are IM LC folks whose only life is to race at Kona and strut their stuff. I see some who I question in the Olympic distance stuff,
but most of these folks may not seem to care about TeamUSA.

Still would love to see all the Kona qualifiers and USAT AA's be drug tested.

Does not matter why they are doing, ego?, but it is happening and probably growing in size. But, the federations do not care, just basically like all professional sports. Why rock the boat when
they are taking the money to the bank.

---

.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

One word .... ego.

How about a verbal pledge that you have raced cleanly when accepting your slot. I thought about this after watching a roll down. Giving your word is free but priceless! God help the liars.

That explains the wait!

For a guy who is right on the borderline for his KQ in M35-39, this really pisses me off.

Week of this year Kona I had a bad cold and I spent a bunch of time trying to figure out the rules about prednisone and pseudoephedrine and phenylephrine and whatever else the doc was trying to give me just to make 100% sure that there was no chance that I would violate a rule (especially at the World Championships).

Meanwhile a bunch of guys are hitting the T and blowing past me.

Whining finished.

---

Ironman Certified Coach

Currently accepting limited number of new athletes

For those who would use PEDs would their word really mean anything?

It would be nice if a low cost reliable drug test could be invented.

---

Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

Jim, I got a cold that week, too! (Something about traveling to Kona with kids, perhaps??) After all of the work, time, emotion, and money invested in racing well there, it was very tempting to try and knock it out with a Nyquil-induced 12-hour night of sleep. (Nyquil, like most OTC cold medicines, contains banned substances.) I didn't do it, of course, or else I wouldn't be talking about it.

I think that it's ego that drives the elite amateurs and it's also the simple drive to go as fast as possible (which, okay, may be the same thing as ego). The alarming thing about this story to me is the organization. I know that several elite amateurs blur lines or cheat outright, but the fact that there would actually be a black market infrastructure is disturbing.

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George D.
Canton, GA

Based on every pro doping case ever in every sport it would mean nothing.

Ask Kevin Moats

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

If you aren't careful, then the pursuit of becoming an elite endurance-sport hobbyist can be the healthiest way to lose friends, and dull your personality. Participating in a doping program as an amateur is just sad.

The hardest part for me was the damn rules, first figuring out what was or wasn't banned, then figuring out what the definition of "in competition" is, then explaining all that BS to a doc that wants out I healthy but doesn't really have a clue about the half life of prednisone in your particular metabolism.

Meanwhile, EPO, T are flying past me in the Queen K.

Some solace in a clean concours I guess!

---

Ironman Certified Coach

Currently accepting limited number of new athletes

It's the airplane!!! you put 400 people next to each other with the cabin air recirculating and there is much higher chance for people to get sick. I got sick twice this year and both times it happen 3-5 days after being on a plane.

Pretty sure there was a Grand Fondo in Italy where Italian anti doping rolled up at the start and several riders in the top 100 got lost then DNF'd.

Unfortunately PEDs + sports go hand in hand like peanut butter and jellly

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Or the first year they tested AGers at worlds in Germany all of a sudden some of our TeamUSA racers who had signed up just happened to not be able to make it.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I agree. Changing time zones on that airplane contributes, too, since it throws off your rest and makes you more susceptible. I also wonder whether my walking around so much--I had babies to entertain--had something to do with it, too. Perhaps it exposed me to more of the 400 people's germs??

All the more reason to get to Kona early if you are competing there. I had time to develop a cold and mostly get over it before the race started. On Tuesday, though, I had some concerns.

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George D.
Canton, GA

Next time call the hotline for USADA. My experience was that they can provide all the info you need regarding doses in and out of competition use.

It was funny because I was asking about an asthma medication and was told you would have to use about 17 doses in a 24 hour period to exceed the in-competition level. I can't image using more than maybe 4-6 in 24 hours. It was also the same drug Pittachi was busted for. It made his excuse seem even more bogus.

Yep. Their wallet is lightened for what? To brag they finished an Ironman in 12 hours? On the other hand, for amateurs does it really matter? It's their karma that is cracked and left burning by the side of the road. But as long as I can look myself in the mirror and say "Yep, I finished last, but I did it without drugs" then I'm happy. I would be happier to finished first....

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

What I think would be the ultimate is some kind of easy to administer 'finger prick' type test for doping. You go up to get your slot, get your finger pricked and put on some kind of litmus paper that determines if you have taken banned substance or not, right there at the roll down in front of all your fellow competitors. =)

---

Long Chile was a silly place.

Take pics and post 'em. We'll start a 'twitch hunt :)

Lol, I remember Petacchi getting busted. He had the equivalent of about 15 puffs off a salbutimol inhaler in his system. The lab also determined that the amount in his system wasn't consistent with taking it via inhalation.....not sure if salbutimol comes in a pill? Anyway, yeah, it would be hard to go over the limit with a puffer when using as directed for asthma...

 

>One word .... ego.

Ego is purely what drives me to train 20 hours/week and spend 15% of my income on pro-level equipment despite being a middling-talented, middle-aged AGer.

It's pretty silly, which I try not to think about too much.

Don't I don't cheat.

It's more than ego.

I know it sounds corny but I would like to hear KQ'ers stand in front of their peers (at the awards ceremony) and pledge that they will race clean. Heck, I liked to hear everyone recite a pledge at the beginning of each tri to race fair and clean. If it is said enough times maybe it will sink in with some of the knuckleheads.

They were testing at Kona this year. Are these results every published? Could be pretty damaging for the brand if even a few AGers tested positive and the results were publicly known. But, it would go a long way to discourage cheating (at Kona, at least.) On the other hand, I'm more concerned about qualifying races. I haven't witnessed any testing at the 5 non-Kona IM + 2 70.3's that I've raced.

People willing to go to the lengths of doping to cheat at a hobby wont feel any remorse about lying through their teeth in front of their peers. I would go so far as to say that cheaters actually feel good about cheating the system. They take pride in it, and feel no remorse. No one is hanging their head in shame while pumping themselves full of EPO. While I like the idea, it would do nothing to deter cheaters.

I'd like to hear something similar recited for drafting prior to each race!

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Long Chile was a silly place.

And this is exactly why that whole Clean Protocol stuff is so utterly useless.

Nyquil contains dextromethorphan and doxylamine succinate - and a healthy amount of ethyl alcohol.

Can you find them on the list?
http://list.wada-ama.org/by-substance/#D-group


It hasn't contained decongestants for a while, maybe since sudafed got put behind the counter.

Well, the inhalers would be a poor way to get the steroid into your system. Very small amounts of the steroid work their way into your endocrine system from the lungs, to the best of my knowledge. It's a few parts per million if I recall. Which is why the use of these inhaled steroids is now ok. Trust me, as a long-time inhaled corticosteroid user, these drugs only give you a fighting chance to get enough air to keep up a moderate pace in a race. Before asthma I could run 5 minute miles and now struggle to hold 8 minute miles in a standalone race and 12-13 minute miles in a half-IM. Anyone who thinks asthma inhalers are some magic bullet/performance enhancer is badly misinformed.

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

Good to know. Thanks for the correction!

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George D.
Canton, GA

My understanding (could be wrong!) was that the reason pro cyclists were using these inhalers in high doses was for the stimulant effect they have. Lungs will only open so much, so using more than 2-3 puffs is likely useless for most people in that regard, no?

So glad that now everyone has a built-in excuse for when they don't quite KQ. Of course, there were plenty of excuses before I guess...

Dosing for me is very critical. Too much and I have a paradoxical reaction and have trouble breathing. Too little and I will experience an exacerbation.

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

I'd rather a clean 9:45 than a doped 9:00....
Shows the true difference in people that when they are alone and
Reflect on their accomplishments that any event they cheated in were as good as a DNF... They don't exist.... And in that case what is the point...?
And re getting to Kona or not... In the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter any more than any other event....
And if it's all just for money then it proves these clowns are too dumb to get any other job that has a salary...
All in all it's easy to pity these people.....

I'm not the least surprised. At my last race: 2nd place 2:04 third 2:06 I was 6th at 2:11. The winner went 1:48. Uh huh. Right. If we've learned anything from TdF is if the result looks funny that's because it IS.

My suspicion is that European age group triathlon is littered with dopers.

1:48 is chasing podiums in ITU isn't it?

Yes, sir. Either the guy cut the course, had his chip mess up or was an actual pro.

Let's worry about North America Age group triathlon before worrying about what our Euro friends are doing...as Logella pointed out...we might want to check that the Dasani and Wonderbread here is all what it is cracked up to be before getting to bent out of joint about the Evian and baguettes over there.

I am less worried about what guys are on when they are blowing by on the QueenK...it is too late, because the bandits robbed the banks and are escaping with the prize. I am more concerned about the act of robbery that get them to Kona in the first place. Once they are there, it is a bit too late. Most of the stealing has already been done!

why would you suggest that europeans are more pre-disposed to doping than Americans? even if we did start it, the Americans perfected it........

I'm not sure why you'd think this.

Although a 47 year old amateur I was randomly selected for a dope test at the Commonwealth Games earlier this year and having now gone through this experience I can honestly say that I am really pleased that it happened as it has confirmed that I race clean. Being a FOP AG (Gold and Silver at ITU Worlds & Kona finisher) I can now prove the legitimacy of my performances.
If and when a test becomes available that is relatively cheap, say £100, I would seriously consider signing up and paying to be randomly tested just to prove my authenticity.
I would also happily pay an extra £10 in race fees for 70.3 and Ironman events if I knew that this money would be spent on randomly testing say 50 to 100 age group athletes.

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Chris Walker.
Gibraltar,
Europe

I'm rather uncomfortable with this rather black and white view when it comes to age-groupers. When prize money, sponsorship and history is in the making then there is no place for dopers are even ex-dopers who continue to benefit, so for the pros the penalties should be draconian as the whole point is that the best athlete wins. However the story for age-groupers is very different, the playing field is vast. You have young trust funders pretending to be pros, self made millionaires who retire in their forties and have Mark Allen coaching them, you have part-time workers who spend their summer in the Alps, those who can afford altitude tents, ex-pros who's job now involves running training camps. On the other extreme you have the weekend warriors trying to do the best that they can do with families and stressful jobs. I'm not happy with the idea that the 'bandits' are only those who supplement with EPO or similar stuff, it's assuming all else is equal, and this is definitely not the case for potential Hawaii qualifiers. Trying to untangle all of these variables is impossible, hence the discomfort of targeting the one obvious immoral and illegal one, at the expense of the other less problematic ones...

SteveMc

Lots of people can swim, bike, run for 12 hours - try doing it for 16 or 17 - now that is endurance - that extra 4-5 hours really makes it an endurance sport : )

Are you saying that having money to afford "Mark Allen" coaching you, to afford less work more training, to afford an altitude tent, to afford training camps is equivalent (although not illegal) to doping? Because it sure sounds like it.

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Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca

Europeans are way better social drug takers than the N. Americans, that said .... N Americans love taking drugs to combat even the most minuscule health issue. Based on that in depth analysis I think it's probably about even with regards to performance enhancing.

I think all KQ'ers should take and pay for a test right there at KQ signup. I assume 24 hours would be too soon for drugs to clear?

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https://www.pbandjcoaching.com
https://www.thisbigroadtrip.com

Nope, that's *exactly* not what I'm saying! You read what you wanted to. For pros I think it is black and white, for age-groupers there is a spectrum. For a pro one could argue that it would be unprofessional not to use altitude (real or virtual) if it works for you, unprofessional not to use a wind tunnel, have high performance coaching etc.

So turning the question on it's head, what does it mean to be an age-grouper? I really don't know the answer to be honest. The romantic view of an uber talented professional with a family who survives on 4 hours of sleep, performing tough 6am workouts daily, while holding down a demanding job etc. just doesn't resonate with what I've seen and what *most* humans are capable of.
I've seen a few of such mutants, top 3 guys in Hawaii, either single or *very* understanding families, capable of going sub 10 on 14 hours max training a week but they're really exceptional. I suspect the guys doping are not in this group, but have heaps of time and money but still cannot do it without the juice. However I really don't know for sure. I really don't know how much of a kick EPO would give a MOP who's only doing an average amount of training versus a FOP who's putting in 25 hours a week. LisaH tried to justify her doping years ago but claiming that lots of people where doing it just to beat their mates...

SteveMc

Cool, just clarifying :) But what you are saying about age groupers applies to pros too. The vast majority of pros are not at Kona, they are working, up early training, work all day, train at night. It is no different that a lot of age group athletes. Yes there are pointy end of the pointy end pros like Rinny, Kienle, Ryf etc... but there are pointy end of the pointy end AGers who podium regularly too.

Is doping enough to get a FOP athlete (AG or Pro) past the hurdle and to the very pointy end, yes. But I wouldn't doubt there are plenty of people doping "just to beat their mates".

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Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca

Triathlon has a lot more important issues than doping.

1. Clean water;
2. Clean air;
3. Safe venues.

Our countries are not doing enough to ensure 1 and 2 especially, and, in some cases, race directors are not doing enough to ensure 3.

Frankly, I'm not so worried about whether Italians dope more than Portuguese, etc. but whether the sport is viable given the environmental problems we are facing. Do we want to be putting on Ironman races in Beijing? The Beijing Marathon AQ represents a small fraction of the tip of the iceberg of our environmental problems. I'm not satisfied any country is doing enough to ensure we will have clean air and water and will reduce our carbon footprint. These issues are much more important than whether, or not, I don't get to Kona because some yo-yo is using PEDS.

BTW, many thanks for your yeoman's work on behalf of Training Peaks. You've helped a lot of people.

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

You are welcome and you are right, the big picture is far uglier than this

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Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca

I think it would be interesting to do a study of the podium finishers in the age group ranks at both triathlons and bike races to see the percentage that are doctors or dentists (access to a prescription pad). I'd bet it's wildly out of proportion with their incidence in the general population. Of course, some of that would be argued to be that they can afford the best equipment and coaches, etc. But I've known a few who are very cavalier about popping this or that for every little ache or pain or performance need.

If the means were available, I'd love to see mandatory testing of any podium finisher at the key races who had professional access to a prescription pad.

Beyond that, i know a couple of guys in my own age group ... One of them wins all the local bike races and triathlons, both and he travels to Italy every year for one of the big Gran Fondos. I've always had my suspicions. The smoke just got thicker. The other told me about his T therapy he was on up until a few months before he won the stars and stripes jersey. He claimed he wasn't aware it was against the rules because his doctor put him on it. Uh ... Right. He'd been racing for 30 years and didn't know T-therapy was against the rules.

The patch and other T therapies are readily available in many states, so I wouldn't think doctors would predominate in the winners' categories. They are very busy people for the most part anyway. Most of the doctors I know are stressed out, overworked, a bit overweight, etc. I only know one doctor who races and he is slower than me. (Now, that's very slow!).

Frankly, I see this obsession with T as a bit of an over-stated problem as many guys might be on T, but when you have multiple sports injuries, disease states and physical limitations, I'm not sure getting T is going to get you anything more than 47th place in your age group, in so many cases. If you've had three ACL reconstructions, two Achilles tendon tears that have been repaired, a host of broken bones from bike crashes, I think T is not going to do the job. Simply a waste of money. Very few people are the rear view mirror guy. Which is why WTC, being smart money managers, haven't thrown a ton of money into age group testing.

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

I wouldn't want drug testing for AG'ers, these things aren't a 100% and how would you like to be the guy who gets the false/pos.....for something that's a hobby. Just not willing to give up my personal freedom.

PEDs won't turn a donkey into a race horse and most AG'ers never get close to thier geneic potential. So the dude blowing by you, is Likely just faster then you...justifying your own short coming by call him or her out as cheater dosn't seen right to me. I would look at myself before looking the other way.

But that's just me.

It's great that you were tested, and I've no doubt you're a clean athlete, but it proves very little. EPO is only detectable only for a few days, so only a complete moron would take some a few days before a major competition. Random AG testing is simply not practical, so amateurs who want to dope will continue to do so with impunity.

If only EPO were detectable for more than a few days...

There. I fixed that for you.

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___________________


...compensating my lack of fitness with inadequate strength and endurance...

"I think all KQ'ers should take and pay for a test right there at KQ signup. I assume 24 hours would be too soon for drugs to clear?"

X2

"I think all KQ'ers should take and pay for a test right there at KQ signup. I assume 24 hours would be too soon for drugs to clear?"

X2 //

What do you guys think they are taking, coke and pot? Any drug cheat worth their salt will be doing the big 4 drugs during the hard part of their training blocks. They can easily go off all of them well in advance of any big race and retain all the benefits. Of course there have been some really stupid pros get caught with EPO in their systems, an old ironman champ even. But that is because they really did not understand how they actually work, think folks are a little more informed now. Especially the AG'er doper, they actually have a knowledgable doctor helping them out.


And this is so common that it would make most heads spin if they knew the depth of AG doping. It all started about 20 years ago too, but now is as easy as getting aspirin for a headache. And for those of you that ask why, you have no idea about the AG ego i guess. Whether fighting for the podium, or to just crack 17 hours in an ironman, it is a very strong drive to do the wrong thing. And in this battle, looks to me like the devil wins out most the time..

I would be for an KQ qualifier to be in a pool, and once in, and then be tested anytime after for a couple years. Just one unannounced test a couple months before ironman would get lots of attention, and catch some bad fish too. Thats how they got Moats..

Or, how about when you sign up for a KQ race you check a box saying you want to be eligible to qualify and agree to random testing from this point on and if needed here is an additional $50.

Being honest and having any sort of ethical standard is a sorry "excuse" to you?

Still hope you forgot the Pink.
Otherwise you still got a lot to learn about Life.

Pretty sure that is the case for anyone who is a member of USATriathlon. Except for the $50 bit. How do you think Moats got tested?

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

I'm betting someone dropped a dime on him via the tip line.

Hugh

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---

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

See, this is where I heartily disagree. The lipstick-on-a-pig argument is a red herring. Take a look at this:

Name Finish Delta Time (%)
"Reboul Gilles " 09:22:59 0.00%
"Heynemand Pierre " 09:25:23 0.43%
"Hauth Chris " 09:25:41 0.48%
"Depoorter Yves " 09:27:04 0.73%
"Dunstan Brett " 09:28:41 1.01%
"Groenhagen Achim " 09:29:32 1.16%
"Lemery Christophe " 09:35:23 2.20%
"Alix Bernard " 09:36:34 2.41%
"Fieldhack Jeff " 09:36:54 2.47%
"Penner Greg " 09:37:41 2.61%
"Schlaisich Christian " 09:38:05 2.68%
"Stockman Jan " 09:39:00 2.84%
"Philippe Anthony " 09:39:41 2.97%

Now what do you think the effect of adding 5% to someone's VO2max would be in this crowd? Is it lipstick-on-a-pig or is it marginal gains?

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AndyF
bike geek

LOL....Gilles, Pierre, Alix, Chris, and Jeff, I have known these guys for a long long time, and their results are totally in line with what they were doing years ago...but yes to your point, if you added 5% to any of these guys, they are all probably going sub 9.

Here are Gille's palmares from his website:

2014
3ème LD Dijon
9ème au LD Alpe d'huez (1er V2)
2ème LD Vouglans (1er V2)

2013
Vice Champion de France LD "Master" à CALVI (Haute Corse)
2ème au LD Dijon
12ème au LD Alpe d'huez (2ème "Master")
9ème à l'Embrunman (1er "Master")
4ème Ironman WALES (Pays de Galles)

2012
Champion de France LD "Master" à CALVI (Haute Corse)
9ème au LD Alpe d'huez (1er "Master")
10ème à l'Embrunman (1er "Master")

2011
2ème au triathlon LD de BELFORT (1er "Master")
2ème au triathlon distance Ironman de Chalon sur Saône "D-DAY" (1er "Master")
Champion de France LD "Master" à DIJON
15ème au triathlon LD de l'ALPE D'HUEZ (1er "Master")
6ème au triathlon distance Ironman de EMBRUN (1er "Master")
12ème au triathlon Half Ironman de GERARDMER

2010
3ème au Semi marathon de Nuits St Georges (1er Vétéran)
5ème au triathlon de AUTUN (1er Vétéran)
5ème au triathlon LD de TROYES (1er Vétéran)
14ème à l'Ironman de NICE (1er Vétéran)
Champion de France LD "Master" à DIJON
11ème au triathlon LD de l'ALPE D'HUEZ (1er Vétéran)
10ème au triathlon LD EMBRUN (1er Vétéran)

2009
2ème au Semi marathon de Nuits St Georges (1er Vétéran)
12ème au championnat de France LD à BELFORT
2ème au triathlon de DIJON (1er Vétéran)
6ème au triathlon LD de l'ALPE D'HUEZ
6ème au triathlon LD EMBRUN (1er Vétéran)
5ème au triathlon LD de GERARDMER (1er Vétéran)

2008
2ème au triathlon International de Dijon
4ème au triathlon Courte distance de Alpe D’Huez
4ème au championnat d’Europe longue distance à Gérardmer
5ème à l’Ironman d’Embrun
Champion d’Europe longue distance par équipe

2007
2ème au triathlon moyenne distance de BELFORT
2ème au triathlon moyenne distance de DIJON
2ème à l'Alpe d'huez
2ème à l'Ironman de NICE
1er à Vouglans
1er au triathlon distance olympique de CHALAIN

2006
1er au triathlon distance olympique de CHALAIN
1er au triathlon moyenne distance de St REMY sur DUROLLE
3ème au triathlon moyenne distance de BELFORT
3ème au Championnat de France longue distance de GERARDMER
5ème à l'Ironman France de NICE
6ème au triathlon distance olympique de TOULON
7ème à l'Ironman d'Afrique du Sud à PORT ELISABETH
7ème à l'EMBRUNMAN
12ème aux Championnats du Monde longue distance à CANBERRA (Australie)
Champion du Monde par équipe

2005
4ème à l'Ironman d'Afrique du Sud à PORT ELISABETH
Qualifié au triathlon d'Hawaii
2ème au Triathlon distance Sprint d'AUTUN
8ème au Triathlon distance Sprint de ROMANS
6ème au triathlon distance olympique de TOULON
11ème au Championnat de France longue distance de LORIENT
2ème au Triathlon distance olympique du PUY en VELAY
3ème à l'Ironaman France à NICE
2ème au triathlon longue distance de DIJON
2ème au triathlon distance Ironman d'EMBRUN
6ème au Half-Ironman de Monaco
39ème au triathlon distance Ironman d’HAWAII
1er au duathlon de JARRY (Guadeloupe)
2ème au triathlon de KARUKERA (Guadeloupe)

2004
3ème au triathlon Half-Ironman de PORT ELISABETH (Afrique du Sud)
Qualifié au triathlon d'Hawaii
2ème au duathlon longue distance de HYERES
3ème au triathlon distance olympique de TOULON
2ème au Triathlon longue distance de DOUAI
8ème au Championnat de France longue distance de LORIENT
7ème au Triathlon distance olympique d’OBERNAI
5ème aux Championnats du Monde longue distance à SATER (Suède)
Champion du Monde par équipe
1er au triathlon longue distance de DIJON
2ème au triathlon longue distance de ST REMY DUROLLE
3ème au triathlon longue distance de NICE
18ème au triathlon distance Ironman d’HAWAII

2003
6ème aux Championnats du Monde longue distance à IBIZA
Vice-Champion du Monde par équipe
1er au Triathlon moyenne distance de ST RAPHAEL
3ème au Triathlon distance Ironman de GERADMER
Qualifié au triathlon d'Hawaii
1er au Triathlon distance olympique de PUY en VELAY
1er au triathlon moyenne distance de DIJON
5ème au Triathlon distance Ironman d'EMBRUN
1er au Triathlon moyenne distance de ST REMY sur DUROLLE
32ème au Triathlon distance Ironman d’HAWAII
1er au semi Aitoman de TAHITI

2002
4ème au Triathlon distance olympique de La GRANDE MOTTE
1er au Triathlon distance olympique de la GUADELOUPE
3ème au Triathlon moyenne distance de PAU
1er au Triathlon moyenne distance de CARCASSONNE
2ème au Triathlon distance olympique de CHALAIN
2ème au Triathlon moyenne distance de CUBLIZE
Vice-Champion de France longue distance
1er au Triathlon distance olympique d’OBERNAY
2ème au Triathlon moyenne distance de DIJON
Champion de Bourgogne de Triathlon longue distance
2ème au Triathlon distance Ironman d'EMBRUN
17ème aux Championnats de France distance olympique à AUTUN
3ème au Triathlon distance olympique d’AUXONNE
4ème aux Championnats du Monde longue distance à NICE
Champion du Monde par équipe
1er au Triathlon moyenne distance de ST RAPHAEL
3ème au Marathon des Grands Crus à DIJON

2001
1er au Duathlon de CHENOVE
Champion de Bourgogne de Duathlon
3ème au Triathlon moyenne distance de PAU
6ème au Triathlon distance olympique d'OBERNAY
1er au Triathlon distance olympique d’AUTUN
4ème au Triathlon distance olympique de BESANCON
1er au Triathlon moyenne distance de DIJON
Champion de Bourgogne de Triathlon longue distance
11ème au Championnats du Monde longue distance à FREDERICA
Vice-Champion du monde longue distance par équipes
1er au Triathlon distance Olympique de NEVERS
Champion de Bourgogne de Triathlon distance olympique
2ème au Triathlon moyenne distance de VOUGLANS
4ème au Triathlon distance olympique d'AUCH
Vanqieur du Triathlon longue distance de NICE
Champion de France de Triathlon longue distance
1er au Triathlon moyenne distance de ST RAPHAEL

2000
Champion de Bourgogne de duathlon
3ème au triathlon moyenne distance de PAU
5ème au triathlon distance olympique de BOURG en BRESSE
1er au triathlon distance olympique d’AUTUN
2ème au triathlon distance olympique des SETTONS
Champion de Bourgogne courte et longue distance
4ème aux Championnats du Monde longue distance à NICE
Champion du Monde longue distance par équipe
1er au triathlon distance olympique de BESANCON
Champion de Bourgogne de Triathlon moyenne distance
3ème au triathlon moyenne distance de DIJON
8ème par équipe au France IRON TOUR
1er au triathlon distance sprint de PERROS GUIREC
2ème au triathlon moyenne distance de SAINT RAPHAEL
2ème au triathlon moyenne distance de LA REUNION

1999
2ème au duathlon "220 MAGAZINE" à GIVERNY
2ème au duathlon courte distance de CHENOVE
6ème au triathlon moyenne distance de PAU (chute en vélo)
1er au triathlon distance olympique de VELLEPINTE
3ème au triathlon moyenne distance de TOULOUSE
4ème aux Championnats du Monde longue distance en SUEDE (1er français)
Vice-Champion du Monde longue distance par équipe
1er au triathlon moyenne distance de DIJON
Champion de Bourgogne de triathlon longue distance
12ème aux Championnats de France distance olympique à VASSIVIERE
2ème au triathlon distance olympique de VESOUL
1er au triathlon moyenne distance de GERADMER
Champion de France longue distance
6ème au triathlon longue distance à NICE

1998
1er au duathlon "220 MAGAZINE" à GIVERNY
1er au duathlon courte distance de CHENOVE
Champion de Bourgogne de Duathlon
1er au triathlon moyenne distance de TOULOUSE
1er au triathlon distance olympique à AUTUN
1er au triathlon distance olympique à CHALON SUR SAONE
Champion de Bourgogne de Triathlon distance olympique
4ème au triathlon distance olympique à ANNECY
Participation aux épreuves du Grand Prix National
2ème au triathlon moyenne distance de DIJON
Champion de Bourgogne de triathlon longue distance
10ème aux Championnats de France distance olympique à MULHOUSE
8ème aux Championnats du Monde longue distance au JAPON (1er français)
Champion du Monde longue distance par équipe
2ème au triathlon distance olympique à AUXONNE
5ème au triathlon longue distance à NICE
2ème au triathlon distance sprint de LA REUNION
3ème au triathlon super sprint de LA REUNION

1997
5ème au triathlon moyenne distance à PAU
6ème aux Championnats du Monde longue distance à NICE (1er français)
Champion du Monde longue distance par équipe
1er au triathlon moyenne distance de DIJON
Champion de Bourgogne de triathlon longue distance
Participation à la Coupe du Monde distance olympique à EMBRUN
3ème aux Championnats de France longue distance à ST JEAN DE LUZ
1er au triathlon distance sprint d’AUXONNE
1er au triathlon moyenne distance de TOULOUSE
1er au triathlon distance sprint de LA REUNION
1er au triathlon moyenne distance de LA REUNION
1er au triathlon super sprint de LA REUNION

1996
1er au triathlon moyenne distance de DIJON
1er au triathlon moyenne distance aux SETTONS
9ème aux Championnats de France distance olympique
7ème au triathlon distance olympique à EMBRUN (France)
6ème du Grand Prix National
10ème au triathlon longue distance à NICE
Sélectionné en Equipe de France pour les Championnats du Monde 97

1995
Champion de Bourgogne de Duathlon
Champion de Bourgogne de Triathlon distance olympique
1er au triathlon distance olympique de SPA (Belgique)
1er au triathlon distance olympique de BOUILLON (Belgique)
10ème aux Championnats de France distance olympique à MAUZAC
2ème du Grand Prix National

1994
Saison dominée par une cascade de blessures
41ème au France Iron Tour (Indiv) et 4ème par équipe
1er au triathlon de LIEGE (Belgique)

1993
Vainqueur de la Super Coupe Francophone
5ème au triathlon moyenne distance de DIJON
10ème aux Championnats de France distance olympique
2ème aux Championnats de France Indoor à BORDEAUX

1992
4ème du triathlon de TAHITI
1er à la Coupe de France des Clubs à MIMIZAN
7ème aux Championnats du Monde militaire à REINSTA (RFA)
7ème au triathlon de la Coupe du Monde à MONACO
10ème au triathlon de la Coupe du Monde au BRESIL

1991
Vice-Champion du Monde militaire à SAN FELICE (Italie)
Champion du Monde militaire par équipe
7ème aux Championnats de France distance Sprint

No, Paul, my point is that a 2.5% swing could completely change the finish order. What's 1st is 9th, and what's 9th is 1st.

It was definitely not about the names on the list. I chose that age-group to make my point more real.

---

AndyF
bike geek

that is a really well illustrated point. thanks for taking the time to show it.

Andy, I KNOW what you are saying, but by choosing a group of guys to make your point, people can interpret things another way. You should have prefaced it with, "Here is an age group finishing order from Kona where the spread is really tight. If anyone were to dope, it totally changes the finishing order".

I just wanted to defend the guys I know who have been putting up solid consistent results for ages and ages. Gilles was fast way back in the day when we were racing in Armed Forces triathlon in 1991. That's even before LA and crew were on the " high octane program".

Dev

Sad assertions by many on this thread and the Zack thread. If doping is at the level some STers portray in our sport, it will never be manageable by merely testing - off season, KQ or Kona. Much more sophistication is required and that means $$$$. Maybe find another sport where you too can "STRUT YOUR STUFF" as was said KQ guys do? Not sure what that means. My bowl is already in my closet.....

I wish I had your way with words. Yes, that's exactly what I meant to say! And thanks for making the point so clearly. I've bold-faced it to be sure people see it.


There is not need to defend, though, because in no way was I saying that anyone doped. Apologies if anyone thought there was anything like that in my words.

---

AndyF
bike geek

when i'm in the middle of an attack I'm on 2 puffs every 2 hours, so that would be 24 doses (assuming 1 puff is a dose) and I've got a neb going on there too (which is albuterol and ipratropium) every 4 to 6 hours and I'm absolutely certain I'm WAY over your 17 doses/24 hours BUT when I'm having an attack requiring q.2 albuterol and q.4-6 neb I can barely walk to the bathroom let alone compete. so there is that. it is not only possible but quite necessary to have more than 17 doses/24 hours in an attack but you aren't going to be competing if you need that much. :)

---

http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

you can get it solution also - that was the first way i ever had albuterol.

---

http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

IIRQ asthma occurs in teh bronchus and not the lungs and the way albuterol works is to decrease the inflammation/mucus in your bronchi and allow you to get air OUT. oddly enough, even though it feels like asthma is an inhalation issue what happens is you begin to retain CO2 and that is what begins your problem (along with feeling like your chest is in a vise). in an attack I'm like a fish with my mouth wide open trying to get mo air mo air but it ain't happening. i don't personally feel any stimulant effects unless i'm doing nebs and albuterol q.2 to 4 and then only short periods after the neb. it is possible that others get a stimulant effect but i get nothing from albuterol. the best way for best effects is to use a spacer, take 1 hit, wait 5 minutes and then another hit.

---

http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

Can you post Kevin Moats' palmares, too? I'm pretty sure they went way, way back, too.

(and of course I'm not saying anything about the individual you referenced. Just pointing out the difficulty in demonstrating that someone is racing clean)

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Hey, no worries. I probably would have done like you (and have), responding direct to someone else's post with some facts. But then another reader just reads your facts, reads, the thread title subset "doping live and well" and jumps to conclusions. I actually really liked your list because of the number of guys on that list that my path has crossed with in this sport, albeit they were always substantially faster than me. What is interesting is that "the fast guys have always been the fast guys", be it locally, regionally, nationally or internationally. The guys with a long pedigree of being fast, are still fast even though we all slowed down somewhat..the pecking order remains the same. I don't worry when I see Gilles Reboul, Pierre Heynemand or Jeff Fieldhack up there. These guys were always fast. I get more concerned when out of my own region, I see guys popping up off the couch after 5 years in the sport and suddenly making a massive jump in their 6th year after plateauing out in years 4-5. That 6th year jump at say age 48 sends out alarm bells. I am talking about guys that go: 12, 11:10, 10:40, 10:35, 10:33 and suddenly 9:40. Sure someone can lose 25 lbs and that could happen too.

Dev

Like I said you can waste your time worrying about others or worry about yourself....to each his own. I think in a one day event even a dude on PEDs can be beat.

Go to the 50-54 AG at this championship race if you want to see what doping can do. Worst part is that he admitted it and still has his name in the win here and the record for the AG. Ironman really needs to fix this;

http://www.ironman.com/...5.pdf?20060426110000

So are the guys 2nd and 3rd doped too? Their close to a doper...so they must be doped also...get my point.

2005 that's reaching back there....

I thought he admitted his doctor said he needed it for 7 years?

I can see why Joe threw up his hands and say I give racing against a person on drugs.

.

---

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

When it comes to racing, at top events heck even down to your local events, I'd suggest that the lack of drafting enforcement plays a bigger role in the outcome of the finishers than doping does.

More of you on this thread have been bumped more often and further down the results sheet by drafting than doping.

You should focus your energy on figuring out the solution to AG drafting before doping.

---

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

So are the guys 2nd and 3rd doped too? Their close to a doper...so they must be doped also...get my point.

2005 that's reaching back there…. //

I can almost guarantee you that 2nd was not doped. He had a long history of winning each AG he would enter, and had a nice long, slow declining curve in his performances, just what you would expect. That along with his very vocal anti drug stance, and he is Joe Bonness after all, well i think we can be safe in thinking he raced clean.

Now Moats, he got busted for drugs, admitted he was doing them back in 2005( the race i referenced) and got a one year ban only. My suspicion is that it goes a lot farther back than what he actually had to cop to once he got caught, but no way to prove that. We do know however that he was/is a serial cheater in every race he does as a non apologetic drafter. Where he got the moniker "Mirror Man". So i don't think in this case it is reaching back too far, since all the facts are in at least for that race forward on his performances. The should be wiped clean from the books, and the rightful owner slotted in their respective spots.

Neither doping or drafting is ever going to be fixed until the day comes where the perception that the risk of being caught at any time is high enough.

I don't know or care who joe is (the guys in his sixties now and over the hill or out of the sport). But you can't stated that he never cheated as a 100% fact....and yes ten years is a long time to claw back.

Once you start pointing fingers around where do you stop. Is it really that important in the big picture. I wish some of this hate of dopers would get focused on the crooks in DC.....they steal a lot more then a wooden IM dust collector.

Thanks for your view of the world.
That really opened my eyes.
Explains everything, doesn't it?

I think another wrinkle is that if some elite age group athletes or pro athletes start doping early in their career, then a phrase, such as they have been winning for years or have a tupical decline over the years, is meaningless, since their arc of achievement is just pushed higher from doping. It makes doped athletes look apparently clean. USADAs report showed some pro cyclists doping for their entire career or 15 plus years. Some recent USA cycling master racers who were banned had been crushing it for decades. When did those guys start to dope, who knows.... That's the whole problem, no one knows if anyone is clean.

 
>Neither doping or drafting is ever going to be fixed until the day comes where the perception that the risk of being caught at any time is high enough.

Depends on your definition of "fixed." Neither will ever go away completely. Both are about finding a balance between cost and effectiveness that are acceptable. Problem is that the majority of triathlon participants are..participants..and their experience isn't affected by cheating. So it's a vocal minority that cares. That minority did manage to get the 70.3 champs moved from Clearwater and some level of AG testing so they're not totally ineffectual.....

Really? Either I am blind, naive, or both.

In my 7 years of racing in my area, I've seen blatant drafting once, in the small local races, by some pros in a local sprint. No other time have I drafted, or seen anyone else draft.

Now I also don't count Ironman as a "local race." Yes, it's "local" but when you have 2000 races compared to 200, I find it different. So at Ironman, I do see much drafting, though often the course bottlenecks and the riders are forced into it.

So either I live in a nicer place, or I am blind/naive.

"Trust but verify"

Winning a KQ slot, you get to drug test. For the price of the race, that should be included in the registration fee. It would be ONE way WTC could make good on its promises to keep the sport clean.

cheers
S.

---

// qui audet adipiscitur

I think another wrinkle is that if some elite age group athletes or pro athletes start doping early in their career, then a phrase, such as they have been winning for years or have a tupical decline over the years, is meaningless, since their arc of achievement is just pushed higher from doping. It makes doped athletes look apparently clean. USADAs report showed some pro cyclists doping for their entire career or 15 plus years. Some recent USA cycling master racers who were banned had been crushing it for decades. When did those guys start to dope, who knows.... That's the whole problem, no one knows if anyone is clean./

I agree with everything you said here, and of course many will be in that boat. Personally I'm pretty sure Joe is not one of those. But my larger point was that we have an admitted and convicted doper in this category(long term AG doping) and yet, his records and wins still stand over the period "HE ADMITS" to doping. That is wrong.

"Trust but verify"

Winning a KQ slot, you get to drug test. For the price of the race, that should be included in the registration fee. It would be ONE way WTC could make good on its promises to keep the sport clean.

cheers
S.[/quote]
darn, you beat me to it (the quote from Ronald Reagan), I'd think a letter to KQ'ers sent out that says something like...

During the months of August and Sept. xx% of registered participants will be tested. When selected you will be asked to provide your location, blah blah blah.

It will be interesting to see if the quantity of "drop outs" to Kona, and/or people attempting to KQ would be different.

Problem with the above is that it's not really in the interest of the event organizer to do this (from one marketing perspective), though, I would argue, it could be used as a positive marketing tool as well.

I'd be flattered if I got tested.

I suspect someday, technology will be able to inexpensively trace PED use backwards much, much further than we can go currently.

Until the above happens - I will continue to assume goodwill about the guys that are faster than me. I find it less destructive to myself to not obsesses about what I can't change. And, use their awesome speed as a motivator to train and race ever closer to my true capability (I DO have a lot of room for improvement - at least that's what I keep telling myself).

---

I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________

"Trust but verify"

Winning a KQ slot, you get to drug test. For the price of the race, that should be included in the registration fee. It would be ONE way WTC could make good on its promises to keep the sport clean.

cheers
S.[/quote]
From what I understand, many Kona AG winners ARE pulled in for a drug test straight after the race (someone can correct me if I'm wrong), so WTC is paying some lip service to the issue. But in reality this is not an effective drug policy and they know it. As I've said before, only a complete moron would turn up to Kona 'hot', so testing at the event itself is useless. Some kind of random pool system is the only way to go. I like the idea of agreeing to random testing when you sign up for an IM, saying that you want to be eligible for Kona qualifying and, as such, you are aregeeing to someone potentially turning up on your doorstep randomly and asking you to pee in a cup. Maybe you already agree to this in the small print when you sign up for an IM, or join USAT - I'm not sure - thoug clearly no-one really believes it's actually going to happen. Of course there are still immense practical problems with this...cost, logistics etc., to say nothing of the fact that WTC really doesn't want to deter people from the sport via an over-zealous drug policy that turns people off, either by shining a spotlight on the problem, or by annoying those who resent the idea of random tests at their home.

I don't see why at KQ races with slots that there can't be some kind of on site setup that once you accept your slot (they sure are happy to take your fee at that time aren't they?) you walk over to Medical and there you go.

cheers
S.

---

// qui audet adipiscitur

same problem... if you know that to accept a Kona slot you will need to pee in a cup, you're not going to show up to the race 'hot'. You understand EPO is only detectable for a couple of days, right? Only random, out-of-competition testing would catch AG dopers.

Just saying that if we can't agree on the right test at the right time then lets start with some low hanging fruit: KQ'ers, give us your word, publicly, that you race clean! If you can't stand in front of your peers and say that then don't take the slot.

Is nobody paying attention? If you are a member of USATriathlon, you can be tested out-of-competition at any time:


WTC need not add any threatening letters to Kona qualifiers or anyone else.

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

I agree with your reply, too and I am not implying anything about Joe, hence why I didn't write any specific names. That being said, and completely unrelated to any AG athletes, I remember reading about a couple pro cycling athletes who have been on anti-doping committees/ambassadors for anti-doping, who later test positive!

This is great on paper, but completely useless in practice, and they even say in the quote "testing of age-group athletes is not common". Talk about waving a white flag! So yes, WTC could be doing more, as could USAT. Targeting a few pointy-end athletes for random OOC testing would be a start, and publicising this testing and the results on their websites and in USAT's magazine would help too. Anything to increase the perception that, as an AG athlete, you might face a random test. Because right now, the perception is that the only way you will be tested is by winning your AG at Kona or the Nationals, and that's not a drug policy, it's just paying lip service.

But again, neither USAT or WTC have a vested interest in busting a bunch of AGers. It could be damaging to the popularity of the sport.

I am paying attention and do know the above - I just think things would be a bit different if they removed the word "not" between is and common. And, actually did what I suggested. In the current world; for all practical purposes (de facto) - no AG'er believes they'll be tested, why, because so very few really have (I've got a better chance of winning the big lottery). I'd suspect even one year of August-Sept. testing would set a precedent, and put the fear into enough people to maybe, maybe, actually change behavior. Kinda like having a speed limit sign up, but, no cops ever enforcing it. A coupla days of cops writing tickets, and, low and behold more folks are now going the speed limit.

---

I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________

darn, you beat me to it (the quote from Ronald Reagan), I'd think a letter to KQ'ers sent out that says something like...

During the months of August and Sept. xx% of registered participants will be tested. When selected you will be asked to provide your location, blah blah blah.

It will be interesting to see if the quantity of "drop outs" to Kona, and/or people attempting to KQ would be different.

Problem with the above is that it's not really in the interest of the event organizer to do this (from one marketing perspective), though, I would argue, it could be used as a positive marketing tool as well.

I'd be flattered if I got tested.

I suspect someday, technology will be able to inexpensively trace PED use backwards much, much further than we can go currently.

Until the above happens - I will continue to assume goodwill about the guys that are faster than me. I find it less destructive to myself to not obsesses about what I can't change. And, use their awesome speed as a motivator to train and race ever closer to my true capability (I DO have a lot of room for improvement - at least that's what I keep telling myself).[/quote]

I think this can definitely be used as a positive marketing tool. I can see if top pros get nailed doping then our tiny sport that already has sponsorship issues will look even less attractive, but if WTC is nailing a variety of nameless age groupers and thereby showing it is "serious" about dope control, then it comes out looking good.

It's kind of like the IOC which does not want NHL Hockey players at the winter Olympics getting a dope bust....neither the IOC nor NHL want that....but it's fine to show you are "serious" by nailing a random skeleton athlete, or a snow boarder who inhaled second hand marijuana smoke.

Or, as Dan indicated, out of the fear of a major lawsuit by an accused Wall Street triathlete whose job is threatened by some positive finding.

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

I often giggle when people use the "what's the point?" argument.

I can't understand dopers and doping is abhorent to me. However, I realize that for better or worse, not everyone thinks like me. I have learned through various management courses and life in general, that there are all sorts of people and all sorts of ways of thinking. My personal bugbear is religion. I cannot understand how people can believe in that stuff. I am clever enough to know that it's possible (but unlikely IMHO) that they are right and I am wrong. Therefore, I leave them to their beliefs and I stick to mine.

When it comes to doping of AGers, I can't understand why they'd do it. My only thought is that they are so weak of character, that they can't stand by their own failings, and will do anything to not fail. Society is partly to blame of course. We give so much cred to winners, that winning has become the holy grail and people will do anything just to win. And winning anything is good enough. Next it will be kids cheating to get an extra gold star from their preschool teacher.

Me? I am confortable that I'm not a winner at everything all the time. I am content to do my best and live with the result. Others are not. They are the ones at the T-Clinic. I pity them.

---

TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

Good attitude.

So, assume they tested everyone at some race, and found out they had 50 positive test results. Would they make them public to the detriment of the sport? I don't think so. We aren't the NFL. The NFL can do slipshod testing, pop a couple of athletes and survive just fine. If we have a doping scandal like pro cycling the sport might never recover. We might be going to races with 100 guys like we did in the late '70's and early 80's. I oppose doping but we should be careful what we wish for....Unless you want small races.

-Robert

---

"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

I'd love to see the dopers popped and publicly shamed. I'd love to see 100 guys at races like the old days. Then I could finally crack the top 100!

I really don't see why a race with 2000 people (some of who aren't clean) is better than a race with 100 people that are clean.

Just think that the lines at the porta loos would be shorter. The swim start wouldn't be a re-enactment of the D-Day landings. Drafting would all but disappear. You could find your bike in T1. You could park next to transition. You could get a seat at the restaurant after the race. You'd know everyones name at prize giving.


I don't think dopers should be killed (mainly because killing is illegal and suggesting murder would probably have the Secret Service knocking at my door) but medical castration would be a fine alternative.

(some of the above should be pink, but I'm not sure what bits, so I've left it as is :-))

---

TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

Re cycling: I think there is a significant issue with older geezer athletes and T therapy not fessing to it. I see some guys you can't find in earlier competitions now posting times not far from much younger age groups.

Yeah, the whole T supplement thing gets me.

1. What count's as being low T? being less that the low end of the average range for your age? Being less than the max for your age? max for any age? max for WADA?
2. Once you're tested to being 'low' compared to any of the yardsticks above, what level should you be allowed to supplement up to? Up to the low level of 'normal range'? to the middle of the average range for your age? The max of your age range or the WADA max?

Me? I won't ever supplement for Testosterone. If I do, for bedroom performance, then I certainly wouldn't race. And I'd only supplement to slightly above the low side of average.

People who supplement T for a performance improvement are sad, pitiful, miserable losers IMHO.......but none of them care what I think.

---

TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

What if WTC kept all the drug findings private between the athlete and WTC? Because WTC owns the races and these are amateur races they can do whatever they want with regards to banning or preventing people from racing. My thought is that WTC does drug testing when you take a KQ slot and if you fail they refund your entry fee and shadowban you from WTC for X years. WTC is the judge, jury and executioner and it is kept private. This won't be as satisfying for the clean racers who want the cheaters named and shamed. At least it is something.

Lol dawg you'd be straight trippin like can't get anything done like some couch locked drunk trippy off a healthy dose of dxm you'd have to be crazy af to get on a bike and try to ride that thing 10ft let alone 112mi then robo walk your ass 26.2 miles lolol off some dxm 

I just needed to quote this one and the part in bold. I'll take it further...there is always someone way smarter, way better looking, way faster, fancier job-house, better family, better job, smarter and better looking spouse and kids. I think I am pretty content with the pecking order than I was placed in on all fronts and quite happy in my own relative skin. Or as we tell our kids, "does not matter about the other guys, just get the most out of yourself". So this is my summary, "I am comfortable, that I almost never win anything all the time and someone is always beating me....I'll just try to get as close as I can". It seems in many fronts in life, I'm like the 4-6th place guy (at least locally, be it in my school, city, company etc). Never the top dog, but biting at those guys to keep them sharp.

I either missed the last bit of genetics, or I'm not focused enough. I think it is more the latter than the former which I think is the case for many people (but hey, it is easier to blame our parents for crap genetics than blame ourselves for being lazy/less focused). The top guys just out work and out execute the also rans (so why the f*&K am I here on ST rather than running intervals of crunching an ROI presentatioin for work.....so in that sentence, I would think most of us have the answer on why someone beats us....the guys winning generally have more focus...sure there is the odd doper, but lots of clean guys who just beat us because they want it more)

There's the plus side to consider. I have spent lots of time and know the Panama City, FL area well, but am not interested in racing there because of the greater incidence of drafting. I would opt for more hilly races, even though I never get that awesome looking total time that a flat course can bring. Add to this, that I'm now 50+, the age where it feels even more tilted by T enhancements (possibly by guys who would have never even considered EPO or other "serious" or "real" doping), and I'm not interested in long course at all. That would change if I felt there was a level playing field, and so you pick up participants as well as losing some (or many).

All my life I've been able to pick things up and become average very quickly, with little effort. I've risen to higher level at things I like or things I work at. I was a ski pro for a while, but there are lots of skiers better than me. I doubt there are many people that enjoy skiing more than I do. I'm exactly MOP ironman (hit 50% of finishers at my last IM). I'm a better than average engineer, and a pretty good but not awesome husband and father.

Overall I'm pretty awesome. Others may be better than me at one or two things, but overall I rate myself pretty high, without being arrogant about it, if that makes any sense.

Anyway, back to being a slightly better engineer today......

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

I think this comes around to the exact point of amateur doping.

You said, "Overall I'm pretty awesome. Others may be better than me at one or two things, but overall I rate myself pretty high, without being arrogant about it, if that makes any sense" A person like you sounds fairly decently self actualized, in the sense that where others fit relative to you won't push you do to shady things. Not everyone is so comfortable in their skin and that ends up being the catalyst that pushes them to the wrong side. I bet you as a parent you're instilling the same values into your kids along the lines of,

"What the Jones' do don't matter....what matters is what you get out of yourself, with your effort....where you land in the pecking order is where you land depending on who shows up:"

A friend of mine has a race car. He's just finished a week long tour around the south island of NZ, on closed roads, giving it heaps and having a blast. I used to really want a race car, but now realize I only have so much time and so much money, and a race car just doesn't fit in my life. I'm now relatively contented with that, and just enjoy giving him a hand with his car from time to time, and enjoying life vicariously through him.

Me? I'm just building a tree house at the moment. A couple of LaZboy chairs, small beer fridge, cable TV, slide into my pool and a couple of fold down beds. Great fun. My friend with the race car doesn't have a tree on his property, let alone one with a treehouse in it? I reckon we're about even :-)

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"