Triathlon has a lot more important issues than doping.

1. Clean water;
2. Clean air;
3. Safe venues.

Our countries are not doing enough to ensure 1 and 2 especially, and, in some cases, race directors are not doing enough to ensure 3.

Frankly, I'm not so worried about whether Italians dope more than Portuguese, etc. but whether the sport is viable given the environmental problems we are facing. Do we want to be putting on Ironman races in Beijing? The Beijing Marathon AQ represents a small fraction of the tip of the iceberg of our environmental problems. I'm not satisfied any country is doing enough to ensure we will have clean air and water and will reduce our carbon footprint. These issues are much more important than whether, or not, I don't get to Kona because some yo-yo is using PEDS.

BTW, many thanks for your yeoman's work on behalf of Training Peaks. You've helped a lot of people.

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

You are welcome and you are right, the big picture is far uglier than this

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Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca

I think it would be interesting to do a study of the podium finishers in the age group ranks at both triathlons and bike races to see the percentage that are doctors or dentists (access to a prescription pad). I'd bet it's wildly out of proportion with their incidence in the general population. Of course, some of that would be argued to be that they can afford the best equipment and coaches, etc. But I've known a few who are very cavalier about popping this or that for every little ache or pain or performance need.

If the means were available, I'd love to see mandatory testing of any podium finisher at the key races who had professional access to a prescription pad.

Beyond that, i know a couple of guys in my own age group ... One of them wins all the local bike races and triathlons, both and he travels to Italy every year for one of the big Gran Fondos. I've always had my suspicions. The smoke just got thicker. The other told me about his T therapy he was on up until a few months before he won the stars and stripes jersey. He claimed he wasn't aware it was against the rules because his doctor put him on it. Uh ... Right. He'd been racing for 30 years and didn't know T-therapy was against the rules.

The patch and other T therapies are readily available in many states, so I wouldn't think doctors would predominate in the winners' categories. They are very busy people for the most part anyway. Most of the doctors I know are stressed out, overworked, a bit overweight, etc. I only know one doctor who races and he is slower than me. (Now, that's very slow!).

Frankly, I see this obsession with T as a bit of an over-stated problem as many guys might be on T, but when you have multiple sports injuries, disease states and physical limitations, I'm not sure getting T is going to get you anything more than 47th place in your age group, in so many cases. If you've had three ACL reconstructions, two Achilles tendon tears that have been repaired, a host of broken bones from bike crashes, I think T is not going to do the job. Simply a waste of money. Very few people are the rear view mirror guy. Which is why WTC, being smart money managers, haven't thrown a ton of money into age group testing.

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

I wouldn't want drug testing for AG'ers, these things aren't a 100% and how would you like to be the guy who gets the false/pos.....for something that's a hobby. Just not willing to give up my personal freedom.

PEDs won't turn a donkey into a race horse and most AG'ers never get close to thier geneic potential. So the dude blowing by you, is Likely just faster then you...justifying your own short coming by call him or her out as cheater dosn't seen right to me. I would look at myself before looking the other way.

But that's just me.

It's great that you were tested, and I've no doubt you're a clean athlete, but it proves very little. EPO is only detectable only for a few days, so only a complete moron would take some a few days before a major competition. Random AG testing is simply not practical, so amateurs who want to dope will continue to do so with impunity.

If only EPO were detectable for more than a few days...

There. I fixed that for you.

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___________________


...compensating my lack of fitness with inadequate strength and endurance...

"I think all KQ'ers should take and pay for a test right there at KQ signup. I assume 24 hours would be too soon for drugs to clear?"

X2

"I think all KQ'ers should take and pay for a test right there at KQ signup. I assume 24 hours would be too soon for drugs to clear?"

X2 //

What do you guys think they are taking, coke and pot? Any drug cheat worth their salt will be doing the big 4 drugs during the hard part of their training blocks. They can easily go off all of them well in advance of any big race and retain all the benefits. Of course there have been some really stupid pros get caught with EPO in their systems, an old ironman champ even. But that is because they really did not understand how they actually work, think folks are a little more informed now. Especially the AG'er doper, they actually have a knowledgable doctor helping them out.


And this is so common that it would make most heads spin if they knew the depth of AG doping. It all started about 20 years ago too, but now is as easy as getting aspirin for a headache. And for those of you that ask why, you have no idea about the AG ego i guess. Whether fighting for the podium, or to just crack 17 hours in an ironman, it is a very strong drive to do the wrong thing. And in this battle, looks to me like the devil wins out most the time..

I would be for an KQ qualifier to be in a pool, and once in, and then be tested anytime after for a couple years. Just one unannounced test a couple months before ironman would get lots of attention, and catch some bad fish too. Thats how they got Moats..

Or, how about when you sign up for a KQ race you check a box saying you want to be eligible to qualify and agree to random testing from this point on and if needed here is an additional $50.

Being honest and having any sort of ethical standard is a sorry "excuse" to you?

Still hope you forgot the Pink.
Otherwise you still got a lot to learn about Life.

Pretty sure that is the case for anyone who is a member of USATriathlon. Except for the $50 bit. How do you think Moats got tested?

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----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

I'm betting someone dropped a dime on him via the tip line.

Hugh

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---

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

See, this is where I heartily disagree. The lipstick-on-a-pig argument is a red herring. Take a look at this:

Name Finish Delta Time (%)
"Reboul Gilles " 09:22:59 0.00%
"Heynemand Pierre " 09:25:23 0.43%
"Hauth Chris " 09:25:41 0.48%
"Depoorter Yves " 09:27:04 0.73%
"Dunstan Brett " 09:28:41 1.01%
"Groenhagen Achim " 09:29:32 1.16%
"Lemery Christophe " 09:35:23 2.20%
"Alix Bernard " 09:36:34 2.41%
"Fieldhack Jeff " 09:36:54 2.47%
"Penner Greg " 09:37:41 2.61%
"Schlaisich Christian " 09:38:05 2.68%
"Stockman Jan " 09:39:00 2.84%
"Philippe Anthony " 09:39:41 2.97%

Now what do you think the effect of adding 5% to someone's VO2max would be in this crowd? Is it lipstick-on-a-pig or is it marginal gains?

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AndyF
bike geek

LOL....Gilles, Pierre, Alix, Chris, and Jeff, I have known these guys for a long long time, and their results are totally in line with what they were doing years ago...but yes to your point, if you added 5% to any of these guys, they are all probably going sub 9.

Here are Gille's palmares from his website:

2014
3ème LD Dijon
9ème au LD Alpe d'huez (1er V2)
2ème LD Vouglans (1er V2)

2013
Vice Champion de France LD "Master" à CALVI (Haute Corse)
2ème au LD Dijon
12ème au LD Alpe d'huez (2ème "Master")
9ème à l'Embrunman (1er "Master")
4ème Ironman WALES (Pays de Galles)

2012
Champion de France LD "Master" à CALVI (Haute Corse)
9ème au LD Alpe d'huez (1er "Master")
10ème à l'Embrunman (1er "Master")

2011
2ème au triathlon LD de BELFORT (1er "Master")
2ème au triathlon distance Ironman de Chalon sur Saône "D-DAY" (1er "Master")
Champion de France LD "Master" à DIJON
15ème au triathlon LD de l'ALPE D'HUEZ (1er "Master")
6ème au triathlon distance Ironman de EMBRUN (1er "Master")
12ème au triathlon Half Ironman de GERARDMER

2010
3ème au Semi marathon de Nuits St Georges (1er Vétéran)
5ème au triathlon de AUTUN (1er Vétéran)
5ème au triathlon LD de TROYES (1er Vétéran)
14ème à l'Ironman de NICE (1er Vétéran)
Champion de France LD "Master" à DIJON
11ème au triathlon LD de l'ALPE D'HUEZ (1er Vétéran)
10ème au triathlon LD EMBRUN (1er Vétéran)

2009
2ème au Semi marathon de Nuits St Georges (1er Vétéran)
12ème au championnat de France LD à BELFORT
2ème au triathlon de DIJON (1er Vétéran)
6ème au triathlon LD de l'ALPE D'HUEZ
6ème au triathlon LD EMBRUN (1er Vétéran)
5ème au triathlon LD de GERARDMER (1er Vétéran)

2008
2ème au triathlon International de Dijon
4ème au triathlon Courte distance de Alpe D’Huez
4ème au championnat d’Europe longue distance à Gérardmer
5ème à l’Ironman d’Embrun
Champion d’Europe longue distance par équipe

2007
2ème au triathlon moyenne distance de BELFORT
2ème au triathlon moyenne distance de DIJON
2ème à l'Alpe d'huez
2ème à l'Ironman de NICE
1er à Vouglans
1er au triathlon distance olympique de CHALAIN

2006
1er au triathlon distance olympique de CHALAIN
1er au triathlon moyenne distance de St REMY sur DUROLLE
3ème au triathlon moyenne distance de BELFORT
3ème au Championnat de France longue distance de GERARDMER
5ème à l'Ironman France de NICE
6ème au triathlon distance olympique de TOULON
7ème à l'Ironman d'Afrique du Sud à PORT ELISABETH
7ème à l'EMBRUNMAN
12ème aux Championnats du Monde longue distance à CANBERRA (Australie)
Champion du Monde par équipe

2005
4ème à l'Ironman d'Afrique du Sud à PORT ELISABETH
Qualifié au triathlon d'Hawaii
2ème au Triathlon distance Sprint d'AUTUN
8ème au Triathlon distance Sprint de ROMANS
6ème au triathlon distance olympique de TOULON
11ème au Championnat de France longue distance de LORIENT
2ème au Triathlon distance olympique du PUY en VELAY
3ème à l'Ironaman France à NICE
2ème au triathlon longue distance de DIJON
2ème au triathlon distance Ironman d'EMBRUN
6ème au Half-Ironman de Monaco
39ème au triathlon distance Ironman d’HAWAII
1er au duathlon de JARRY (Guadeloupe)
2ème au triathlon de KARUKERA (Guadeloupe)

2004
3ème au triathlon Half-Ironman de PORT ELISABETH (Afrique du Sud)
Qualifié au triathlon d'Hawaii
2ème au duathlon longue distance de HYERES
3ème au triathlon distance olympique de TOULON
2ème au Triathlon longue distance de DOUAI
8ème au Championnat de France longue distance de LORIENT
7ème au Triathlon distance olympique d’OBERNAI
5ème aux Championnats du Monde longue distance à SATER (Suède)
Champion du Monde par équipe
1er au triathlon longue distance de DIJON
2ème au triathlon longue distance de ST REMY DUROLLE
3ème au triathlon longue distance de NICE
18ème au triathlon distance Ironman d’HAWAII

2003
6ème aux Championnats du Monde longue distance à IBIZA
Vice-Champion du Monde par équipe
1er au Triathlon moyenne distance de ST RAPHAEL
3ème au Triathlon distance Ironman de GERADMER
Qualifié au triathlon d'Hawaii
1er au Triathlon distance olympique de PUY en VELAY
1er au triathlon moyenne distance de DIJON
5ème au Triathlon distance Ironman d'EMBRUN
1er au Triathlon moyenne distance de ST REMY sur DUROLLE
32ème au Triathlon distance Ironman d’HAWAII
1er au semi Aitoman de TAHITI

2002
4ème au Triathlon distance olympique de La GRANDE MOTTE
1er au Triathlon distance olympique de la GUADELOUPE
3ème au Triathlon moyenne distance de PAU
1er au Triathlon moyenne distance de CARCASSONNE
2ème au Triathlon distance olympique de CHALAIN
2ème au Triathlon moyenne distance de CUBLIZE
Vice-Champion de France longue distance
1er au Triathlon distance olympique d’OBERNAY
2ème au Triathlon moyenne distance de DIJON
Champion de Bourgogne de Triathlon longue distance
2ème au Triathlon distance Ironman d'EMBRUN
17ème aux Championnats de France distance olympique à AUTUN
3ème au Triathlon distance olympique d’AUXONNE
4ème aux Championnats du Monde longue distance à NICE
Champion du Monde par équipe
1er au Triathlon moyenne distance de ST RAPHAEL
3ème au Marathon des Grands Crus à DIJON

2001
1er au Duathlon de CHENOVE
Champion de Bourgogne de Duathlon
3ème au Triathlon moyenne distance de PAU
6ème au Triathlon distance olympique d'OBERNAY
1er au Triathlon distance olympique d’AUTUN
4ème au Triathlon distance olympique de BESANCON
1er au Triathlon moyenne distance de DIJON
Champion de Bourgogne de Triathlon longue distance
11ème au Championnats du Monde longue distance à FREDERICA
Vice-Champion du monde longue distance par équipes
1er au Triathlon distance Olympique de NEVERS
Champion de Bourgogne de Triathlon distance olympique
2ème au Triathlon moyenne distance de VOUGLANS
4ème au Triathlon distance olympique d'AUCH
Vanqieur du Triathlon longue distance de NICE
Champion de France de Triathlon longue distance
1er au Triathlon moyenne distance de ST RAPHAEL

2000
Champion de Bourgogne de duathlon
3ème au triathlon moyenne distance de PAU
5ème au triathlon distance olympique de BOURG en BRESSE
1er au triathlon distance olympique d’AUTUN
2ème au triathlon distance olympique des SETTONS
Champion de Bourgogne courte et longue distance
4ème aux Championnats du Monde longue distance à NICE
Champion du Monde longue distance par équipe
1er au triathlon distance olympique de BESANCON
Champion de Bourgogne de Triathlon moyenne distance
3ème au triathlon moyenne distance de DIJON
8ème par équipe au France IRON TOUR
1er au triathlon distance sprint de PERROS GUIREC
2ème au triathlon moyenne distance de SAINT RAPHAEL
2ème au triathlon moyenne distance de LA REUNION

1999
2ème au duathlon "220 MAGAZINE" à GIVERNY
2ème au duathlon courte distance de CHENOVE
6ème au triathlon moyenne distance de PAU (chute en vélo)
1er au triathlon distance olympique de VELLEPINTE
3ème au triathlon moyenne distance de TOULOUSE
4ème aux Championnats du Monde longue distance en SUEDE (1er français)
Vice-Champion du Monde longue distance par équipe
1er au triathlon moyenne distance de DIJON
Champion de Bourgogne de triathlon longue distance
12ème aux Championnats de France distance olympique à VASSIVIERE
2ème au triathlon distance olympique de VESOUL
1er au triathlon moyenne distance de GERADMER
Champion de France longue distance
6ème au triathlon longue distance à NICE

1998
1er au duathlon "220 MAGAZINE" à GIVERNY
1er au duathlon courte distance de CHENOVE
Champion de Bourgogne de Duathlon
1er au triathlon moyenne distance de TOULOUSE
1er au triathlon distance olympique à AUTUN
1er au triathlon distance olympique à CHALON SUR SAONE
Champion de Bourgogne de Triathlon distance olympique
4ème au triathlon distance olympique à ANNECY
Participation aux épreuves du Grand Prix National
2ème au triathlon moyenne distance de DIJON
Champion de Bourgogne de triathlon longue distance
10ème aux Championnats de France distance olympique à MULHOUSE
8ème aux Championnats du Monde longue distance au JAPON (1er français)
Champion du Monde longue distance par équipe
2ème au triathlon distance olympique à AUXONNE
5ème au triathlon longue distance à NICE
2ème au triathlon distance sprint de LA REUNION
3ème au triathlon super sprint de LA REUNION

1997
5ème au triathlon moyenne distance à PAU
6ème aux Championnats du Monde longue distance à NICE (1er français)
Champion du Monde longue distance par équipe
1er au triathlon moyenne distance de DIJON
Champion de Bourgogne de triathlon longue distance
Participation à la Coupe du Monde distance olympique à EMBRUN
3ème aux Championnats de France longue distance à ST JEAN DE LUZ
1er au triathlon distance sprint d’AUXONNE
1er au triathlon moyenne distance de TOULOUSE
1er au triathlon distance sprint de LA REUNION
1er au triathlon moyenne distance de LA REUNION
1er au triathlon super sprint de LA REUNION

1996
1er au triathlon moyenne distance de DIJON
1er au triathlon moyenne distance aux SETTONS
9ème aux Championnats de France distance olympique
7ème au triathlon distance olympique à EMBRUN (France)
6ème du Grand Prix National
10ème au triathlon longue distance à NICE
Sélectionné en Equipe de France pour les Championnats du Monde 97

1995
Champion de Bourgogne de Duathlon
Champion de Bourgogne de Triathlon distance olympique
1er au triathlon distance olympique de SPA (Belgique)
1er au triathlon distance olympique de BOUILLON (Belgique)
10ème aux Championnats de France distance olympique à MAUZAC
2ème du Grand Prix National

1994
Saison dominée par une cascade de blessures
41ème au France Iron Tour (Indiv) et 4ème par équipe
1er au triathlon de LIEGE (Belgique)

1993
Vainqueur de la Super Coupe Francophone
5ème au triathlon moyenne distance de DIJON
10ème aux Championnats de France distance olympique
2ème aux Championnats de France Indoor à BORDEAUX

1992
4ème du triathlon de TAHITI
1er à la Coupe de France des Clubs à MIMIZAN
7ème aux Championnats du Monde militaire à REINSTA (RFA)
7ème au triathlon de la Coupe du Monde à MONACO
10ème au triathlon de la Coupe du Monde au BRESIL

1991
Vice-Champion du Monde militaire à SAN FELICE (Italie)
Champion du Monde militaire par équipe
7ème aux Championnats de France distance Sprint

No, Paul, my point is that a 2.5% swing could completely change the finish order. What's 1st is 9th, and what's 9th is 1st.

It was definitely not about the names on the list. I chose that age-group to make my point more real.

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AndyF
bike geek

that is a really well illustrated point. thanks for taking the time to show it.

Andy, I KNOW what you are saying, but by choosing a group of guys to make your point, people can interpret things another way. You should have prefaced it with, "Here is an age group finishing order from Kona where the spread is really tight. If anyone were to dope, it totally changes the finishing order".

I just wanted to defend the guys I know who have been putting up solid consistent results for ages and ages. Gilles was fast way back in the day when we were racing in Armed Forces triathlon in 1991. That's even before LA and crew were on the " high octane program".

Dev

Sad assertions by many on this thread and the Zack thread. If doping is at the level some STers portray in our sport, it will never be manageable by merely testing - off season, KQ or Kona. Much more sophistication is required and that means $$$$. Maybe find another sport where you too can "STRUT YOUR STUFF" as was said KQ guys do? Not sure what that means. My bowl is already in my closet.....

I wish I had your way with words. Yes, that's exactly what I meant to say! And thanks for making the point so clearly. I've bold-faced it to be sure people see it.


There is not need to defend, though, because in no way was I saying that anyone doped. Apologies if anyone thought there was anything like that in my words.

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AndyF
bike geek

when i'm in the middle of an attack I'm on 2 puffs every 2 hours, so that would be 24 doses (assuming 1 puff is a dose) and I've got a neb going on there too (which is albuterol and ipratropium) every 4 to 6 hours and I'm absolutely certain I'm WAY over your 17 doses/24 hours BUT when I'm having an attack requiring q.2 albuterol and q.4-6 neb I can barely walk to the bathroom let alone compete. so there is that. it is not only possible but quite necessary to have more than 17 doses/24 hours in an attack but you aren't going to be competing if you need that much. :)

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http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

you can get it solution also - that was the first way i ever had albuterol.

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http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

IIRQ asthma occurs in teh bronchus and not the lungs and the way albuterol works is to decrease the inflammation/mucus in your bronchi and allow you to get air OUT. oddly enough, even though it feels like asthma is an inhalation issue what happens is you begin to retain CO2 and that is what begins your problem (along with feeling like your chest is in a vise). in an attack I'm like a fish with my mouth wide open trying to get mo air mo air but it ain't happening. i don't personally feel any stimulant effects unless i'm doing nebs and albuterol q.2 to 4 and then only short periods after the neb. it is possible that others get a stimulant effect but i get nothing from albuterol. the best way for best effects is to use a spacer, take 1 hit, wait 5 minutes and then another hit.

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http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

Can you post Kevin Moats' palmares, too? I'm pretty sure they went way, way back, too.

(and of course I'm not saying anything about the individual you referenced. Just pointing out the difficulty in demonstrating that someone is racing clean)

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----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"