I know a lot of people will be saying it's a good thing because of some of the recent controversial decisions Ironman has made (e.g. split WC), but I'm going to reserve judgement until I see the next thing.

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Too old to go pro but doing it anyway
http://instagram.com/tgarvey4

Our article: https://www.slowtwitch.com/..._to_Retire_8726.html

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

It's undeniable that he has done a ton of good for the brand and for the sport. Yes, he has made tons of mistakes and I have been one of the first to criticize him on these forums for those mistakes, but he has been uncommonly dedicated and loyal to both the IM brand and to the sport of triathlon. That is undeniable. He loves the sport as is evident by the dedication, effort and plain old time spent in his position.

He spent 12 years as CEO of a mid-size company that was bounced around from owner to owner that whole time! That is very uncommon for someone that brought a resume like Andrew's to that job. He could have done a million other things but he chose to work in triathlon. I thank him for his years of dedicated service and wish him well on his new endeavors.

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http://dontletitdefeatyou.blogspot.com

I'm with you there. I know it's the nature of the internet to focus on the negatives, be them perceived or real, but he's absolutely done a lot of great work over the last 12 years that never gets talked about. I could list the things I'd have done differently, but I'll leave that for someone who's more excited to do so.

I've only had a few interactions with Andrew but they've all been positive, and what came through most was his love for the sport. I'm sure this thread will go in a lot of directions, but even with the very fair criticisms I hope that doesn't get lost.

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Too old to go pro but doing it anyway
http://instagram.com/tgarvey4

He spent 12 years as CEO of a mid-size company that was bounced around from owner to owner that whole time! That is very uncommon for someone that brought a resume like Andrew's to that job. He could have done a million other things but he chose to work in triathlon. I thank him for his years of dedicated service and wish him well on his new endeavors.


My feelings are the same. Andrew Messick has done overall a great job with IRONMAN at a high level, which is what a CEO is supposed to do. It's not been easy. This business is NOT the money-maker that people think it is. The easy number crunching leads to a false narrative that many follow. Endurance Sports Race/Event Management at this scale is INCREDIBILY hard with very thin margins. The rotating door or ownership, must not have been easy - and of course, the massive financial and economic convulsions, of the pandemic, inflicted insane and completely new and unknown challenges for anyone and everyone in the Live Events Business. As I have said here many times, try running a mid-to large sized business, and then abruptly you have your main source of revenue just turned off for a year to two years! Think about it for a second - how would you survive such an event?

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Question is:

Why did he quit?

(I assume to “retire from the role” is Ironmanese for “quit”.)

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"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden

Don't let the door hit you on the arse on the way out....

Looks like a podcast with him is incoming today. I hope they dig into that.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CuXtJWVy8yD/

i would not want to be negative on him, i m sure he did amazing thing buisness wise. But as a athlete, the product and experience have gone downhill since 2011.... how much of this is on him and is vision vs the reality of the sport? no clue but i sure hope we could go back to some of the element of the past that made events so much more fun to be part of.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

He certainly has taken a lot of criticism from members of this forum. I agree with previous posts about him advancing the sport and give him my thanks. I do wonder if his leaving isn’t another signal that Ironman is in trouble. I won’t be letting them hold my entry fee money for next year (email came out today for 2024 races).

The good:

— race day product is excellent (but I’m not sure how much credit he deserves for that)
— Covid era policies were very friendly

The bad:

— damaged the sport with predatory approach to rival races
— horrible quality control with almost all other aspects of organization (website, merchandise, customer service)
— has not been able to create sustainable races in most venues, including Kona

Typically an executive at a PE-run company doesn't even last 5 years. Over the years that Andrew was CEO I would celebrate things like the expansion of 70.3's or the saving of the 2021 WC by bringing it to St. George after COVID or the expansion of live coverage for events. And I would also criticize him for not being more proactive on proper communication with customers, unequal slots for women at the WC, the watering the soup on SWAG at events, etc. And then there were the really tough issues like: what to do with the WC in Kona or how do we ensure safety and still maximize the number of participants.

Through it all in the back of my mind the thought would be: My goodness, this mother f-er has a really, really tough job. But I'll be damned, he loves what he does! And I just have to admire that. He loves the sport and is passionate about it. I have a feeling we may all miss that going forward.

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http://dontletitdefeatyou.blogspot.com

A little surprised they didn’t have a succession plan for when he stepped down. He’s been there long enough for there to be discussions on a potential successor and development of internal employees to step into the role. Reading between the lines, it sounds like this was unplanned and abrupt.

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blog

He did a lot to grow the IM brand, turn their second product (70.3's) into a success and get a lot of people involved in triathlon. There were also drawbacks from that growth on the local/regional scene that helped put triathlon in it's current position of losing participation rates. The pandemic exacerbated that trend certainly.

This is probably one of those situations where he stayed a few years past where he should have.

Will be interesting to see what sort of changes happen at the org for races and racers.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Is that with Jack Kelly?

Yes, with Jack.

I thought they were mortal enemies..?

 his job is to expand the value for the owners and he did that really well.

But the execution of the split world championship- the timing, considering where we are as a sport - was pretty bad. I think that hurt the brand and hurt the value.

Easy for me to say but as a do over I’d go back to Kona, exclusively, shrink the field and double the price. Exclusivity has been lost. That is what has gone wrong.

One has to wonder if the incident in Hamburg last month played a part.

Similar to cheney - leading w's search for a veep.
I applaud messicks political skill. Hand off for the next person, and be percieved to be mission critical to convince the bod he should lead it.

Golf clap.


Huuuuge missed opportunity when he alienated and blocked trs / hobbs. I expect fleck and other boomers and others to counter this.

Kudos to Messick for starting the Legacy program. It will be interesting to see how the trail running segment of IM's business develops under a new CEO.

The Board said "You're done; we will let you stay on as a Board Member ... for a while"

Seen it all before

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Read between the lines of Jonnyo's post and you just know he wants the underpants run back!

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http://www.fitspeek.com the Fraser Valley's fitness, wellness, and endurance sports podcast

My take is the triathlete enthusiasts might interpret this as a good thing (and it may be), but I can't help but wonder if Messick is stepping down not because of all the flack from the usual suspects but he sees the writing on the wall: DECLINE.

Ironman is canceling several races going into next year, they are seeing declining numbers in a lot of their races, they have StG and CdA asking not to do the full distance (declining numbers certainly contribute). Then the World's fiasco where they struggle to give women slots to Kona and they are faced with the impossible task of trying to give women slots to Nice.

Messick is walking away because there are challenges that seem totally out of his hands to overcome.

With his background (McKinsey etc), vast experience working with growth PE, he probably is well invested in the Ironman company as a share owner himself - he can sit back at age 60 (?) and do some board work in various companies, work 10h a week, go golfing and fishing whenever he wants to ... and doesnt have to put up with all this Corporate BS, press and travels.

Whovever comes next as CEO of the IM brand, has a pair of big shoes to fill. Kudos from here for the work he has done and what he has achieved.
Has there been things that could have been handled better? Certainly, but all CEOs experience that.

The fact that the owners does not have a replacement ready at the time of announcement hints that something abrupt has happened.

The fact that the owners does not have a replacement ready at the time of announcement hints that something abrupt has happened.

——-


Ive worked through 2 Canadian bank CEO transitions. The first CEO “retired” with near immediate effect after $2.4B ENRON right off. The second was a year long road show openly communicated transition from one to other, clearly the latter planned and better for employees morale.


No CEO just gets up and retire without comms plan of who successor is and what timelines are. Given the past 9-12 months of Ironman snafus this is an ask to retire not choice.


Hes done good work. Made tonnes of money. Good for him. But the Kona debacle, Hamburg, really poor ongoing PR, refusing to embrace PTO, putting races is stupid places (muskoka ironman, Tulsa, Des Moines, Alaska) has caught up. And numbers are way down.


Im curious how bullish new CEO will be in ultra and gravel events.

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@rhyspencer

Ironman has grown based in new athletes arriving to our sport, so it was not a proble to care athletes.

Few people is happy paying more for the same. Nobody likes to pay more for less.

So the question is if the Ironman prices are fair, if their cancel policy is fair, if Ironman WC is an attractive product anymore...

I have one last thought: one teacher said to us, during a lesson about fixed /variable costs, if a company decides to decrease the cost at minimum they would decide that to recude variable cost to 0, they should not produce anything, and to reduce the overall cost to 0, they shall close.
When they decide to cancel a good Ironman like Ironman Mallorca to still do the Ironman 70.3 Mallorca. They decide to cancel Ironman UK, but still doing the 70.3... Ironman Lanzarote still without date for 2024. To earn more money of Ironman Hawaii... move WC to Nice... yes, someday they would decide to cancel Ironman races and do only marathons or gravel races.

I don't know which objectives the new CEO will have. Short term objective to allow the property to sell the company with benefits? It is my bet.

i guess he has done good work given that in every sale ironman lost substance by increasing debt and that he manged to stay 12 years says a lot.
at the same time i wonder who wants to take over a ship that seems to sink every year a bit more.

they have to work hard, and to think that not all triathletes earn 100k-200k USD/year. Most of us earn much less, even less than 50k USD /year. And that Ironman is our expensive whim race... but if you make the count of registration+travel an increment of more than 25% per year is too much, and they are throwing out many people.

I think in general he did some really great work for the sport and the brand. Some decisions are certainly not without valid criticism. I find the timing odd in so far as the marquee event for the brand is in a state of disarray due to his efforts to broaden participation. I think whoever takes over need to find a solution for the Kona Problem.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

I think part of Ironman’s problem nowadays is they are still clinging so hard to the 140.6 distance when it’s clearly evident the 70.3 distance is where their growth and expansion is. I think they know this but are having a hard time transitioning to this reality.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

It wound be interesting to see how many 70.3 participants aspire to do a full.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

who wants to take over a ship that seems to sink every year a bit more

———-


Sinking in North American market at 140.6 distance. Growth in UK and Europe. Overall Quadruple growth in 12 years in 70.3 while UTMB is rapidly growing.


But the clean up is real. Lots of debt. Loyal customer base pissed off and 2024 “real” competition as PTO expands. Add the Kona debacle. Be a big job for sure.

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@rhyspencer

Without question PTO is challenging the professional race but they have very small AG participation.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

1- He didn't quit by his own volition, it's obvious he was pushed out. Not uncommon for companies on the decline to do the easy thing first and sack the public face of the company. "See, investors, we're doing something to change"

2- The participants are the customers. This seems to get lost on a lot of people. An Ironman athlete is nothing more than a passenger on an airline in the eyes of the company. Provide the bare minimum product that maximizes the return on investment.

3- I wouldn't count on this being a good thing for triathlon or athletes. Ironman the company on the decline is going to have to be more aggressive in protecting it's brand and assets. Hosting a race is a risk, it could make sense to cancel more low-margin or low-revenue races. Cancelling races makes the still existing races more exclusive....aka more expensive.

4- Not Messick specific, but what's the carrying capacity for existing venues? Costs for the races are relatively fixed, more participants = more $. I would push for fewer races with more participants.

5- Diversification into 'adventure' style races. The infrastructure is already there, just host the exact same event on a dirt road instead. Call it IRONMAN OffRoad p/b Dogecoin.

Has he stepped down or actually leaving Ironman?

I hope its the Latter.

Yeah. Remember that time he didn’t want equal numbers of women and male professionals?

He did great work there.

Gezzus. He was a sexist arse

I find the 70.3 distance perfect from a training perspective (9-14hrs per week) with no crazy long weekend rides, and also it allows me to 'race it' more than just a gruelling endurance fest.

I have zero interest in a full - I'm sure others feel similar. Kudos to everyone that does a full thou - epic achievement.

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Regards, Richard
3D Bits and Pieces - https://www.printables.com/@thetrickster_793480

He is going to help find his replacement and is remaining on the Board.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

They did. Just finished listening. Good interview although I wish Jack spent less time relitigating their last conversation and he clearly has a high opinion of his media skills.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

andrew has considered me part of the sounding out process at both ends of his IRONMAN tenure. i knew him while he was running the tour of california. he called me months before he took the IRONMAN job and we talked about it. he called me well before this retirement announcement and we talked about it. so, no, nothing abrupt about this and this was not an event-driven decision.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

So Ironman has known for months and yet still do not have a succession plan. Great to read their business is well planned out. This is basics.

We shall see where it takes us.

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@rhyspencer

i didn't write that ironman has known for months.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Why is this so difficult ?
Who needs a CEO ?

Simply create a thread here on ST and let it set the direction of IM.

What could go wrong ?

FTFY

Fair point yes.

Andrews first IM was here in Penticton. When Challenge swooped in and our former city council bought the pitch Andrew flew up here and offered a lot to keep IMC. He didnt win that and city council and manager all gone now and IMC is back. Worlds turn.

Again, we shall see where it takes us.

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@rhyspencer

andrew has considered me part of the sounding out process at both ends of his IRONMAN tenure. i knew him while he was running the tour of california. he called me months before he took the IRONMAN job and we talked about it. he called me well before this retirement announcement and we talked about it. so, no, nothing abrupt about this and this was not an event-driven decision.


We live in very busy hectic and chaotic times. I'm super low on the pecking order for CEO's, Presidents and Company owners to get back to. But Andrew has always been one who has, after I have sent him a note. I know he's a busy guy and I have zero expectation, but he always returns the 3 - 4 email messages I send to him in any given year!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

They also need to offer aquabike at races for those of us on our 4th decade in the sport and whose knees have taken the worst of it.

Also, in general, I suspect the median age AG triathlete is not young probably 40s - 50s.

Keep us around! We got disposable income to race but not so many opportunities if we can’t run.

Great timing on his part. It will be difficult to continue to improve and grow this brand.

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It's a Good life if you don't Weaken!
My Mom 1922-2004

Mark Lemmon wrote:

It will be interesting to see how the trail running segment of IM's business develops under a new CEO.

There are a lot of trail runners who are not fans.
Check the qualifying requirements for High Lonesome:
https://www.highlonesome100.com/qualification
"(No UTMB Group owned races allowed)"

I wasn't aware of the IM investment (ownership?) Of UTMB. Reading that page and a little more about Ironman's vision, it looks like the smaller races are a little worried about the elephant crowding out their races. It's fair enough to say that the 5000+ person races goes against the spirit of suffering alone on the trail, and it's obvious there may be some financial pressure put on them. I have to say reading their "principled" stand against alleged Ironmans gender discrimination raises an eyebrow though. That comment feels to me like high lonesome 100 is hiding behind a small minority to cover for the fact that: they feel their business threatened and they simply don't want to pay whatever fees were asked to be associated with UTMB.

So is it confirmed what IMs stake in UTMB is?

I've long thought that ultra running is going to eat Ironman's lunch as it grabs the "impossibly hard things" category, so it's interesting to read this happened. I guess I wasn't paying attention that week...

North America specific.... they need to stick with the 140.6 races that do really well year in and year out. Which is more or less the races currently on the docket with the exception of Maryland and Canada. Cozumel doesn't draw a huge crowd but I get why it exists. We shall see what Penticton draws this year but if it's "just" 1500 athletes they need to axe the race. Penticton just isn't the draw it was the first time around. Nobody cares. Whistler was a better draw, IMHO, but the difficulty of the course meant lower registration numbers each year.

Texas
Lake Placid
Mont Tremblant
Wisconsin
Chattanooga
California
Florida
Arizona
Cozumel

They need to do a better job spacing out the races. Placid and Tremblant are too close to each other both geographically and on the calendar. Move Placid to the end of June to give two months separation.

There really needs to be another spring race. I'm not sure what race works in May though. FL and AZ are too hot.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Re Whistler… city management were very happy to see Ironman leave as are the village owners who want sport contained within village boundaries so people spend $ and can come and go.

Re Penticton i too am curious how 2023 goes. Do know after last years race a 5 year contract was signed.

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@rhyspencer

Chattanooga and California could work in May.

I just had a look on booking.com what Penticton hotels were charging during race weekend.
Room + taxes is over $300/night for the Spanish Villa, a very mediocre hotel. LOL.

Re Penticton i too am curious how 2023 goes. Do know after last years race a 5 year contract was signed.


Like a lot of tings the Pandemic has been highly disruptive to Endurance Sports Races and Events. Last year GENERALLY numbers were down from 2019 numbers, but this year the trend is to be back at and for some exceed those numbers. We shall see. Triathlon perhaps a slightly different than say, running - the overall participation numbers in ALL triathlon races actually peaked in 2012 - 13 and then started a gradual downhill slide to 2018, with a bit of an up-tick into 2019 . . then the pandemic!

Between 2012 and 2019 - IM races seemed like they were growing in numbers while other non-IM races were dropping. If you just existed within the IM world - ONLY doing IM races, during that time frame, you were getting a warped view of what was really going on.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Chatt 70.3 is in May but they could swap dates with the IM.

Would the water be too cool for IM Cal in May?

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

On my side of The Pond, IM Has this week
- completely sacked off the Staffs 70.3
- dumbed down Bolton to a 70.3 from the full ut previously was.

(That follows their predatory take over of Challenge Weymouth a few years ago and dumbing that down too).

Will be interesting to see whether the local councils decided they'd not pay the asking price from M-Dot, given the funding crises we have in all local governments, inflation at the rate of a tinpot state, etc. Or if M-dot see the £££ in people's pockets to spend on expensive races is dwindling (people I see are out of the tri habit following 2 years of Covid restrictions, and the economy in Blighty is bolloxed post Fhexit too. Plenty of non M-dot races have disappeared following covid at half and full distance.

No worse than Coeur d’Alene in June.

They tried to move ve Wisconsin to June a few years ago but got so much backlash (rightfully so) that they changed it back to September.

In states with real winters, I think the local/regional Ironman needs to be at the end of summer to fit into a healthy triathlon ecosystem/economy/culture. At least that's the case in Wisconsin. Southern states probably have a bit more flexibility with decent outdoor training and racing weather for more of he year.

I do wish they would find another IM in Florida or maybe even in Georgia for the spring. Course may be difficult to find for Florida though. But at least the weather would be good and good for those that live in the south and can train outside year round.

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blog

Arizona was in April up until 2009. They could have a Spring and Fall race here in AZ.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

To supplement what you said - Messick told Tim Heming his departure was delayed (i.e., also not caused) by the Hamburg tragedy.

https://twitter.com/.../1677361935858245636

I usually take what Messick says with a grain of salt, but this checks out.

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"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden

It was the World Championship race at St. George last year, and I was waiting in line with the bike valet volunteers for the first pro to come in to T2. The volunteer captain had quizzed our group asking who was truly experienced at grabbing the pros bikes when they came in hot.

The woman who was at the head of the line insisted she was.

Of course, she wasn’t. The pro threw his bike at her and she bobbled it.

A man stepped up and smoothly grabbed the bike, handing it off to a volunteer.

That man was Andrew Messick.

I think it says a good bit about an executive that they not only manage from the executive suite but are on the ground watching the details. It made a good impression with me.

I’m not up on all the ins and outs of Ironman management, but I appreciate the changes over the years that have made it less time-pressured and less financially risky to sign up for an Ironman race. Time was you had to register the first day a race opened to be sure you could get to race, or in the case of IM AZ, show up and volunteer to get early registration. With the addition of more races, you can take a bit more time. Also, the pandemic deferral policies have been more athlete-friendly than the previous, “buy the race insurance or tough luck” stance.

I think my friend Liz Kollar was involved in suggesting some of these changes when she went to work for Ironman several years ago with the mission of making Ironman more appealing to clubs and kids. But ultimately it needs buy-in from the top.

The addition of women race announcers to most 70.3 and full Ironman events is also an excellent move. When I was at Ironman 70.3 Indian Wells for an audition as a race announcer, (so yes, I am biased by my hopes to go work as an Ironman race announcer some day) I got to sit behind the scenes the night before the race at their “ready to go” meeting. What I heard was a lot of safety talk, a lot of discussion of making sure there was enough post-race food, and plenty of volunteers. It was a very cooperative team, all focused on making it a positive experience for the athletes.

Ultimately, I have to judge the company by the consumer experience, and that is still top notch at the full and half distances.

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Sharon McN
@IronCharo
#TeamZoot
Clif Bar Pace Team 2003-2018

A full IM in Augusta during the spring would probably pull in good registration numbers. The 70.3 always does really well in September.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Maybe swap Eagleman & IM Maryland on the calendar?

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

 

Before Messick was CEO, when I did an Ironman event, I felt like an athlete.

After Messick became CEO, when I did an Ironman event, I felt like a consumer being milked for my money.

Maybe you're just getting old :)

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E-DUB
Chief Janitor @Slowtwitch
Life is short. Dont be mad all the time.

I think you'd mostly want to blame the owner who gave the CEO his marching orders.

According to Dan it was Messick himself. Like you however, I’m not buying it either.

I want to add a really good story about Andrew from personal experiences perspective.

First, at Kona he came to the Canadian breakfast and took the mic and thanked us and Subaru and highlighted how before ever being employed by Ironman his first IM was in fact in Penticton. His Kona schedule is nuts and he and Mike Reilly as well took 2 hours out of their day to join us.

Race day 5am on the pier he came to body marking volounteering group to kick off his day. Thanked us for getting up so bloody early. It was clear it was all very personal. He even “lent” his IM Breitling watch for a test to a guy beside me.

Hes also done races with no one knowing to honour athletes that have passed.

So while yes i am critical of the business operations at times i also get its a super hard fucking job. The gift and curse of Ironman is a passionate customer base. Like Man U or Wrexham or my beloved welsh rugby team or Toronto Maple Leafs, that level of fan commitment makes it easy to be super critical (while continuing to give them our money!)

I think the single biggest investment IM can do is hire a PR firm. Their communication is and has always been terrible. And its left Andrew fending for himself in some very difficult situations (starting back with 50 women to Kona and onwards…) Joining podcasts as a CEO on a whim is asking for more trouble than good. Plan it out and bypass small time and talk to Rich Roll not “how they train” guy. No bank CEO joins BNN on a whim. They have a team, speaking notes, and are ready for the hard Qs. They are not eating lunch at the same time😂

Looking forward to learn who is successor and her/his/they vision.

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@rhyspencer

I recall taking my bike through check out at 70.3 WC last year. Messick was checking the wrist bands and bike numbers.

It struck the cynic in me as a carefully chosen way to demonstrate his humility and willingness to volunteer—in a very highly visible place that many would notice.

I would have been more impressed if I saw him picking up trash or putting toilet paper rolls in the porta potties.

He has navigated IM through some pretty choppy waters, but I came here to write what is in the quote. The number of athletes trained at a high enough level to make Kone/Nice a world championship is only going to decline for the foreseeable future. Many factors impact this, including demographics and competing interests that are not endurance-athletics-focused among upcoming generations. If *we* have been discussing such things here, it is a certainty that IM/Messick have conducted a more detailed, data-driven projection of what the next decade looks like. Interests evolve.

Still, there are potential options for growth as the traditional events shrink/become less profitable. Now, I *hate* this, but gravel cycling is a thing. What about a signature event that depends on a gravel bike leg? In the right venue, the run could be trail, paved or a mix. The swim? Maybe no different than present, but the community of swimmers and gravel riders might be small. I dunno. But, still, I think that a creative approach might elevate the brand and maybe that new thinking requires a new CEO. Maybe Messick knows that and his devotion to triathlon/IM has him convinced that the community is better served by a CEO with fresh ideas. No matter how much a leader contributes to advancing an organization, there is a time for someone new. Bad CEOs hang on, drag the organization down (or fail to optimally propel it) and good CEOs recognize that the time has come to turn over the leadership. Maybe I'm an optimist, but perhaps that is a contributor to Messick's decision - let's get a new CEO and new ideas to continue advancing triathlon/IM.

Maybe. But, even if the successor is known from a previously prepared plan, there are some potentially advantageous optics to conducting an (inter)national search for the successor. That way, the 'best' CEO will be identified, obviously!

So he’s still there and will have power to run things and influence.

Nothing will change.

Ironman triathlons will continue to fade outside of the USA.

Only change is that he will be more on the golf course and fishing trout somewhere, but yes...

I met him once and although it was only casually I still remember.
The first time I raced in Kona was 2017 and everything was very unreal and exciting to me. Seeing Greg Welch walking on the streets, visiting „Breakfast with Bob“ (No it is not in a studio, the ocean on the background is real and you can just pop in and watch). I had trained years and years to make the experience.
And Messick: at the registration he stood at the end handshaking and wishing good luck to every contender. I said reverently „Thank you Mr. Messick“, on which he answered something like „Just call me Andrew, I feel like my father when you say Mr. Messick“. It was just nice of him standing there and you had the feeling he knew which sacrifices the people had undergone to be there.

Finally managed to listen to this podcast. I wish Jack Kelly would just shut up and let the guests speak. You would think he was the interviewer and the guest the way he wobbles on.

Valerie Silk oversaw the growth of the Hawaiian Triathlon Corporation until 1989 when it was purchased from her for $3M and became the world triathlon corporation - WTC. That company owned the Ironman Brand and set about licensing events around the world. The famous Ironman World Championship race in Kona was born.

In 2008 WTC was purchased by Providence Equity Securities for $85M and they set about growing the brand for profit. In 2011 Andrew Messick was appointed as CEO having helped build the Tour of California and being an ironman finisher himself. He grew the group and it was sold to Dalia Wanda in 2015 for about $650M - representing a quadrupling of providence investment and valued at $900M by Wall Street.

In 2020 Advance publications acquired it for an undisclosed sum with Dalia Wanda retaining events in China under licence.

Since Messick took over in my opinion Ironman culture has completely changed. Back in the day there was a community feel to Ironman, similar to what you will find at some gravel races and trail running events these days. Guys and Gals turning out with run what you brung type attitudes and talking about the elusive Kona slots. Back then it was unthinkable you would get a slot unless you were one of the best.

Andrew Messick has expanded Ironman and pulled other events into the WTC portfolio. I think you will continue to see running, cycling and one off triathlon events slowly get swallowed up by the WTC machine. But you will never get back that sense of community there was in the early days. I am not saying its a good thing or a bad thing - I am just saying that Ironman the brand, race and organisation has moved well away from its roots and has become a corporate entity to identify with. It is no longer that race you went to once a year to test yourself against your age group peers. I finished well outside the top ten of my age group at Lanzarote this year but just needed to present my credit card to get a slot at the world championships - that would never have happened back in day.

I wish Andrew all the best - he did his best for share holders and the sport, and I believe he did what he thought was right at the time. Beyond his control he also changed the culture of the sport and that has been a backward step for lots of triathletes my age choosing to move onto gravel and trail running. It won't be long before all those events are WTC events as well.

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He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.

Sports Illustrated feature on David Stern (with a supporting role by Messick) mentioned on today’s Slowtwitch podcast episode:

https://vault.si.com/...rding-to-david-stern

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"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden

what are the early days you're talking about? with the community feel? because, if you're talking about kona i don't see or feel much difference in the race between, say, the turn of the century and now, with the exception that more athletes in the race mean higher prices for hotel rooms and rental cars.

the "community" difference is felt in smaller, independent races pre and post IM acquisition. at the same time, some of those races went from being 800 person events to 2,000 person events. there is 1 - and only - event that has flown higher than it ever was during its time under the IM umbrella, and that's roth.

IM is guilty of 4 things:

1. letting its customers get wallet-raped during registration and now that ticketmaster is doing this we might finally get a light shown on this shameful practice;

2. killing the expo;

3. buying up local races with the threat of just going to the local permit givers unless the race is sold to IM;

4. pressuring the locals into not allowing permits inside a large window in front and behind an IM race.

but IM is also "guilty" of a lot of good things, such as rescuing a triathlon community by taking over a race that might otherwise just cease to exist; and for creating a triathlon infrastructure in a place where one did not exist. prior to IMs in (say) utah and arizona, there were meager, feeble tri communities there. you can extrapolate all over the world and see that paradigm.

so there's good IM and bad IM, and most of the bad IM already existed when messick took over.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I might pick a bone with you on the AZ thing. Before IM came to town we raced 3-4x per season at tempe town lake. After IM came to town it went down to just the 2 IM events and now just IMAZ after this season. The real money was the IM events though and that's what the city wanted to make sure stayed around at the expense of Tucson racing, 3D, LTF and Red Rocks races

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I'd add

1.a: Focusing on the affluent. Vs. say promoting youth competition with free or reduced-price U23 entries in 5150 and maybe 70.3.

I get it that private equity is going to maximize per-customer ROI. But I feel it's short-range thinking even from a purely financial perspective to not have a customer-grooming program. Something in between IronKids fun runs and full-up adult competition. Cross-pollinate with NCAA triathlon, etc. Get off-season cross country teams out there playing around. Even give their teams money if they volunteer for setup/breakdown.

private equity has not been a welcome addition to our business models. the goal of private equity is to extract an obscene amount of money from an industry or avocation and return nothing to it. as an example, if a government taxes heavily but returns that wealth to the people, you might have a problem with the redistribution of wealth but at least that wealth is remaining inside a community. private equity is kind of like a plutocracy, where the country remains solvent but the transfer of wealth is from the many to the obscenely rich handful. from falconhead capital, to calera capital, to providence equity partners, i don't see how that has greatly benefited the triathlon consumer. so there's that.

on the athlete development side, i just don't see that IM is good at that. the 5i50 series was a flop. i don't blame IM for not being able to dance the watusi. it just doesn't have the hips for it. but what it didn't realize until it was too late - and really messick is the one who figured this out - is that IM's expansion policies made it an elephant walking in field of daisies. so, IM and life time tried to get a process going to help grass roots racing but neither one of those companies had any skill at that. meanwhile, life time is in gravel racing doing what IM did in half-distance racing: buying any independent race that looks like it might become something big.

what we really need, i think, is a spotlight on any attempts to strong arm a race organizer to sell to a conglomerate; and we need to forestall any attempt by a conglomerate to bogart a 60-day event window. if we just did those 2 things i think room would be made for smaller events to blossom.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

This is an excellent point! I can remember in my early 20ies worrying about having enough money to fill the car, the thought of paying $1k for a race, might as well have been trying to sell me a ticket to the moon.

Discount rate for under 25 etc is a great idea.

most of private equity is a rape and pillage model. The better PE firms consider 5 years to be long range planning.
Expecting them to plan for anything longer is just a dream..

Here in Denver PE has forced many good doctors into early retirement (personal experience) and raised healthcare costs significantly. See for example,
https://jabberwocking.com/...in-less-than-a-year/

I'm kinda impressed that Ironman has survived its years under the lash of PE..

Earlier you mentioned that you and Messick chatted before he took the job, and again prior to him announcing his retirement which many believe to really be getting fired.

In between those two milestones, did you personally discuss with him any of the four points above that you believed his organization was guilty of? And I don’t mean past pieces published here, or threads that mentioned them, I mean a one-on-one conversation that was off the record as cohorts of our sport.

no. but look, why i don't i just give you access to my desktop? then you can look at all the personal conversations i have.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Speaking of Iron kids fun runs, they cost more than any kids run I've ever seen. It would go a long way to the local communities to make the fun run free with a shirt and medal and promote the hell out if it and get as many kids involved as possible.

Assuming current shirt and medal costs, let's assume you get 250 kids for your free event, and we're looking at roughly a $4,000 outlay for the event on swag alone. This also does not include any safety / closures / permitting that you may need for said event.

This is generally why those races that have free kids races (e.g., Boston Triathlon is offering it) -- they had a specific sponsor pick up the tab for it. Probably something like a $10-$15K sponsorship thing for a proper offset. I haven't seen an IM partnership contract in a long time, but that might be a sales opportunity to at least subsidize that experience (if they so chose to).

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

dan, i'd quibble with this part. because
a) this site seems generally to have a bit of an editorial bias in favour of ironman (which you're free to disagree with), and

b) you are dan empfield (which you cannot disagree with). by this i mean that it might be hard for you to be objective or to relate to the kona experience of the average schmoe from sweden or korea or brazil. you've been going to kona since forever and you've been a big operator in the sport for most of that time. you exert your own gravity at IM and people are happy to see you, and invite you to stuff, and whatever. it seems like one of the biggest complaints of recent years was the increased antagonism from locals, the growing difficulty of being accommodated in the community, the constant nickel-and-diming, etc. maybe you're insulated from some of that?

caveat to all of the above is that i've never raced an IM event and have never been to kona.

whether this specifically is messick's problem is a separate discussion.

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

Ya there are definitely costs with it. I'm just looking at it and saying is IM doing all that work for $1000 in profit when they could have 2x as many kids, give them a medal for free, offer an Ironkids shirt for 10 bucks and an extra 40 for a backpack they can take to school if they want and end up not only better off financially but have a bunch more excited kids and parents about Ironman. Capture data, do their marketing thing etc. And start with developing youth through the Ironkids program.

If we're talking about what IM can do to grow the sport and increase participation something like this will cast a wider net on some of the parents and get more kids excited, especially if they target some older groups on the cusp of 18 through cross country, swim teams etc. to be involved. That feels like it will grow better than, "reduce entry by 50 bucks".

No one wants to go to Nice except the very hard core who are aged and remember the Mark Allen days...wasn't that the 80s and early 90s of the great Nice triathlon? How many of this era still are competing in Triathlon? The mythology around Kona permeates through the professional and amateur landscape. One of the things that has been a failure, although I'm not sure you can call it that, is how the regional championships don't really mean much in the pro ranks. They just have extra slots.

Winning or being at a race with qualifying slots was smart for me as a fan, because the Kona Points previously you had people racing a bunch of 70.3s somehow having more points then better IM athletes. Getting to Kona at all costs.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

I find it interesting when folks keep referring to the WC. For most triathletes they simply don’t care because they are not in the 1-2% who will ever experience it. It’s great to watch on TV or online, but at the end of the day it’s the WC based on who is racing rather than where. Don’t get me wrong, the history of Kona etc. is a great backdrop, but it will still be great in Nice or wherever else. Just remember the 98% who show up to an IM with no expectation of a WC slot - that’s not why they go to the races, and from that standpoint it still appears to be a very successful model.

As for the lost community feel that has been mentioned, if you’re referring to what another poster mentioned earlier about sign up on day 1, or volunteer to get your entry spot, and so on - good riddance. I like options, and I like getting time to make a decision. I think we get overcharged at the moment, and I lament the decline in the race expo, but otherwise, the IM brand will continue to get my money because they do a good job putting on events.

if you gave me the chance, i'd take nice over kona. yes, there is "mythology" around kona but, in fact, that place is wanting as a race location for many reasons. one of those reasons is that if you live in europe, or the eastern half of the US, or africa, or most of south america - in order words, if you live in 2/3 to 3/4 of the IM service area - nice is a much more convenient venue. beyond that...

nice is a better course. it's not a valid WC if it's only contested in 1 place, and it never has been valid prior to now because of that. you still get kona every other year for those who worship the myth.

about that mythology. it seems to me the legacy of a place is of value to you when you want it to be, but not when you don't. if there is 1 place worldwide that represents the other half of triathlon's ultradistance roots it's either roth or it's nice.

finally, if i'm IM i'm very happy to have a foot outside of kona jail. yes, i was in nice in the old days. 4 times. but i was at the first ever kona event, racing there, and have been to kona 8 times for each time i was in nice. kona is kona by accident. a bunch of navy guys in honolulu decided to hold an event. it outgrew honolulu but could not be produced (by the race's producers) outside of hawaii. so it ended up on the barren coast of a barren island. fine. it's pretty much similar to unbound gravel. iffy location but there's a reason why it ended up there. nice is not a default location. it's a thought-out location. it's the place you put a WC if you have any place in the world to put one and you have the luxury to choose.

messick negotiated what seemed to me a workaround that should please everyone. if you think it should only be kona, okay, but over the last 30 of those 40 years i've heard from so many europeans who are just sick of the expense and time needed to take that trip. for those europeans who want to make that trip nevertheless, messick retained for you that opportunity, just, every second year.

so, bitch if you must, but at least acknowledge that there's a good faith argument made in favor of the current arrangement.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I think that's what they mean. Like lol wtf go away. I've met plenty of 45 and over in the tri community that talked vaingloriously of how IMAZ never made it to registration. That the only way to race the next year was to have been in the present race or be volunteering for it that day. Not that I'm not willing to volunteer, I am, I have volunteered for 4 independent races and enjoyed it. But I can tell you that I was one of four volunteers for each one of those. And my partner was another...so my household made up 50% of the volunteers each time! And I wasn't even active in the local club scene.


So we can discuss community, but the community in my experience doesn't support the local promoters need for volunteers. They do the races, but they don't show up to volunteer even when a free race is on offer! Which reminds me, I'm moving back to where I started racing so I think I'll figure out a weekend to volunteer until I get back in shape.

There was a period I wanted to qualify for Kona, but I think I'm over it. I haven't raced since my first IM, time to just get back in the game.


Appreciate all that. But I'm going off the hundreds of posts of "whining"? Is it whining? About how Nice just rolls down into the 20s and 30s in each age group.

Unfortunately this sport is not Golf or Tennis, it is a sport where people peak intentionally twice per season. Which I don't understand too much, because if they raced each other more it might be a better professional product. Perhaps IM hasn't done a great job in the prize purse portion of this and maybe this is what the Moritz company tried to change but they're blowing money left and right and IM's focus is on their customer base first and supporting professionals second. So there aren't "majors" across the sport in an organized fashion. There is the "marathon majors" but how many marathoners actually race 3/6 every year? (Since it's a two year cycle)

We'll see if Nice catches on. Would be decent if it does, but people winners of the amateur age groups are letting it roll down for now.

I'm unsure of the race you could plop instantly into the rotation and make it in demand? Roth?

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

St George would like to have a word with you...............................

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

on top of all this, i'm wondering if the expo/circus around Nice will be better than kona.

example: i live in zurich. if i ran a tri company, getting myself and some reps, some product, our standees, etc., all the way to kona, would be a huge expense. are more complicated still if we wanted to make sales. but Nice? we could fill a van or two with stuff and drive there really easily from zurich for a few tanks of gas. easy peasy. accommodations are plentiful and cheap. nobody in the EU/schengen area needs any visas. the waterfront area in Nice is massive and if IM want to make it a real carnival there's potential.

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

The problem with Ironman's expo, according to Felix Walchshoefer, is not necessarily the location of the IM WC as much as the fact that Ironman just won't have a big expo.

The reason that Ironman won't have a big expo is, ostensibly, that the companies at the expo must be sponsors of the race. This "monopoly" is part of the sponsorship package. So there just aren't enough of them.

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"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden

so would i would pick nice over kona i think the big problem is the gender split this is not our sport. iam sure nice or other locations in 5 years will work out , i dont think the gender split will work out.

I would tend to agree with this. This is the beginning of the transition to a two-day, single venue for everyone, rotating world championship. And maybe we get Kona on five year anniversary years, and otherwise there's a smaller, 1500 person race on the traditional date so as to keep the original M.O. of "everyone can have a chance to race Kona" alive.

Honestly think there would have been less outcry had we ripped off the whole band aid and said "everybody in Nice in 2023, Kona said no to two days and we committed to you to give you two days, Nice will give it to us and you're gonna love it there."

To someone's note on bias about IM -- we're biased towards them in that they are the 800 pound gorilla of the sport and they provide the most live coverage for their events. When they get stuff wrong, we say so. When they get it right, in our professional opinion, we're gonna say that too.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

i have been an remain a harsh critic of IM's expo. in fact, of IM's sales team and it's whole approach to partnerships. the people in charge of IM's sales and team have not, in the main, to my knowledge been dedicated multisport athletes, so, they see the expo as simply a property to be monetized. for example, let's say IM could be sold as a race contested by 75 well-heeled AGers a quarter-mil each. yes, that's a cheaper race to produce. fewer volunteers. fewer plastic cups for water. but the same revenue. those just looking at the numbers would take that deal. but you'd miss the grandeur of it. you'd miss the feeling of shared experience. it seems to me just as an observer this is how IM's sales team views its expo.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I could be well wrong ,but I guess Kona without worlds champ status would be more akin to 70.3 Kona and I guess within 4 years would be less than 1000 participants and then die a death , unless they would in deed come back every 5 years for 1 day worlds for male and female that would be great.
People go to Kona to race the world's or for the spectacle and coolness factor . But both would be gone, and I guess ,we saw this in Penticton ,which was once a big race ,and now knowbody really seems to care about it anymore , while Kona has certainly more status than Penticton is also far more remote

Anyway they have handed Roth a golden ticket for being the most important expo in the Tri world
And the biggest 2 gender in one day event in Tri. Felix must be the happiest person in triathlon at the moment and Andrews biggest fan.

I would guess ironman will organise a great show in Nice this year, they have to, but Roth is the big winner of 2023, since pto and ironman both went backwards and Roth forward.
the fields of Roth have for a good while not been that great but this year it was the best of the best especially in the female field and I guess the same will happen till 2026. I guess we can say this is the first time ever the no 1 race is not an ironman branded race at least in an non olympic year .
This has no effect on a global scale, but for Frankfurt it's another blow where people say on the swim and bike this was the lowest spectator turnout ever.

To your point:
Rock n Roll SLC is $5500 for a 20x20
UTMB Snowbird, UT is $2200 for a 20x20
70.3 Jones Beach, NY is $4300 for a 20x20
IM Chattanooga, TN is $7800 for a 20x20
70.3 Indian Wells, CA is $4700 for a 20x20
Kona is $20,000 for a 20x20
~10x20 in Worlds Lahti is 9000€
~15x15 in IM WC Nice is 10,000€

The varying prices in each location suggest to me Ironman has some formula based on square footage available and number of attendees?

Either way the prices, while understandable from one perspective* are unprofitable for most I assume.

* it's costly to hire a guy to map out vendor areas, run a booking website, deal with vendor questions, shipping/setup coordination and inevitable complaints, etc etc. So you can't blame IM for wanting to cover those costs and then build a margin into it.

But it does ruin the "show" to some degree. All that said, it's a positive thing for IM and all its sponsors to have a highly committed ecosystem of companies who want IM to succeed and are actively promoting it to their customers and making it part of their marketing message.

So breaking even on servicing those vendors might be worth it from a growth strategy.

if you want to be a good citizen in your host community, be a good partner to the community, help build up the triathlon infrastructure in the community, you make it possible for the vendors in the region - including the local RDs, including the local bike and run shops - to make your race a big revenue week. the logical place for a local RD to buy a booth, advertising his or her races, is at an IM expo. if you want more IM athletes next year and the year after you make it easier for that local RD to buy a booth, because that local RD is your minor leagues. he or she is doing the work 12 months a year to make future IM athletes, to create races that allow that athlete to hone his or her skills so that when that athlete enters your IM race he or she is capable and equipped. this is not hard to understand unless you're a sales artist who honed his or her skill selling MME or rugby or hockey.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Ya that's the last two paragraphs in my post. If IM wants to quantify things I think IM needs to attatch a customer lifetime value to their racers and then they can do some estimates on the racers created by the local community and "subsidize" their tradeshow to that extent.

I guess someone could argue....what good is allowing the local run store to come in and siphon off value of the customers IM brings in? Maybe IM would need to have some stipulations- you get a heavily discounted booth that's paid for with local tri club registrations for the event?

Anyway, it becomes difficult, I assume, at their level to just say "is for the long term success of the brand" without attaching any value to it.