https://twitter.com/.../1392202926299418627

It's getting Amped up.

Hamas Calls for Iran-Saudi Unity, Israel Issues Warning to Any Who Join Its Foes (msn.com)

Hamas trying to get support from Iran and Saudi Arabia and Turkey et al. Israel publicly telling other countries they better not get involved.

What is Biden to do?

I hope my nephew that is going through Ranger Training at Fort Bragg doesn't get out just in time to go to the middle east if we get stuck in this thing.

I mentioned it in the Persian Gulf thread. Hamas is supported by Iran

How many of those Hamas missiles have been shot down?

Hamas Calls for Full-Scale Rebellion in Israel as Fighting Continues for Third Day (msn.com)

I don't know but this article says its so many rockets from Gaza it's overwhelming the Israeli defense system at times.

Nothing.


Israel doesn't need him.

Relax, buddy. It'll be OK.

The first, and probably the last time I will agree with you on something. Biden should go back to bed and sit this one out. He has enough to deal with in the USA.

The Squad sure is feisty about what's going on. Interesting to see people pick sides in this conflict and why they do so.

There is a will be blood, Israel can easily out gun the terrorists organization Hamas.
And Israel can do special ops ask Iran.

Hamas is truly poking the bear and they know that. There only hope is to get some other country or public support on their side and get the rest of the world involved against Israel. A straight up fight of Israel v Hamas would leave Hamas with no land and an even worse living situation than they currently have.

Biden came out yesterday in support of Israel saying they have a right to defend themselves from Hamas. While this is a common sense statement, many on the far left are bristling at his assertion. Tlaib, Ilhan, AOC.

For the sake of the kids and innocent folks involved, hopefully it ends soon.

One thing lost in all this that I read is the protests/counter protests occurring across the US and the violence surrounding them. Here in the US there are tribal lines drawn. Not Left/Right, but pro Israel and pro Palestine. I think this is a case where unlike in Israel where as mentioned Israel has a leg up in strength, in the US there isn't a will to stand with one side or the other. This could get very violent and bloody in the US. We have seen violent clashes in other protests in the last year. How will the police or government handle these protest? It's easier when you have a good guy and a bad guy (white supremist vs anyone), it is different when you have two sides just showing support for their country or religion.

An interesting perspective from Max Boot. Land grab in East Jerusalem sits at the epicenter this time with Arab Israeli activity this time as the difference from previous go arounds. To windy's point for sure Iran has not missed their opportunity here with proxy Hamas-- nothing new or surprising there. Violence, whether initiated or in response, is a most welcome political plus for Bebe who seems not able to win governing support without it. Trump's Peace in the Middle east, like his peace in Afghanistan, was a cherry picking effort to find willing partners. Those partners, less Israel, sit on the sidelines here as this is a local fight with non partner Hamas actively helping out again.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/...s-worse-middle-east/

I believe the counterpoint to this is that Israel is largely causing the provocations from Hamas and then crying wolf when they get a response. Statements like this coming from people like Biden presumably give them the backing they need to further their incursions into Palestinian land. It’s the long game Israel has learned works to perfection.

I agree and that is definitely how those supporting Hamas "the squad" see it.

This goes back to 1948 where Israel fought to take control of the land they currently control and moved Palestine away and into the Gaza strip. Israel does not see itself as an occupier but the rightful owner of the land. Palestine sees itself as being owned and oppressed by folks that took over their rightful land.

A two state solution seems to make sense but from Israel standpoint, I could see them saying we shouldn't have to give them anything and Palestine saying, we want all of Jerusalem and our holy sites, and to be recognized as a nation. With Hamas, a group deemed to be a terrorist organization, running things for Palestine, not sure that can happen.

A mess indeed.

This doesn't look like it's going to end well for Hamas. Israel shrugging off suggestions for a ceasefire and basically saying they want to crush them so this doesn't' happen anymore.



Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Wednesday during a visit to a hospital where children injured in the rocket attacks received treatment. “An hour ago, we assassinated senior commanders in Hamas's headquarters, including the commander of Gaza City and other commanders. This is just the beginning. We will hit them with strikes they have never dreamed of.”

Israel rebuffs US calls for ceasefire as Blinken sends envoy to region (msn.com)

Well it was also tried and Israel refused, so they made their bed also. Not really fair at all to say the Palestinians are the party being the sole source of dispute here. It is unreasonable to place blame on the Palestinians because they did not automatically accept a deal from Israel that was heavily biased to Israel. I mean, the UN voted overwhelmingly for the borders to be set as the pre-1967 borders, but Israel refuses to have that as the baseline for the borders.

I don't know what the answer is but I'm always bemused by the "they made their bed" crowd - what is that endorsing? Permanent apartheid justified by perceived (but highly debatable) fault in negotiations decades ago? Or something even darker? Even if we stipulate that Israel would be justified in wiping out Hamas that's not a solution, it just puts off the reckoning for another generation.

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

Biden is correct in saying that Israel saying they have a right to defend themselves from Hamas.
His critics are correct because he did not take Israel to task on how they are 'defending' themselves. Killing women an children, blasting places of worship, and continuing the general apartheid that has been policy for the past while is simply wrong.

Ultimately this will end badly. Both for the Arabs and Israelis. Maybe not now but within a few generations.

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Remember - It's important to be comfortable in your own skin... because it turns out society frowns on wearing other people's

Huh, when was Israel shelled from the Golan Heights? I guess it happens in the 1960s, but since Israel has occupied the Golan Heights, when has Israel been shelled from the Golan Heights? Sure Israel positions in the Golan Heights were shelled, but not from the Golan Heights. But from across the border. So no they did not shell Israel from the Golan heights instead of agreeing to a two state solution. That is just nonsense.

Why should Israel give up land that is not theirs? Maybe because it is not theirs.

Middle East history class is back in session again? The more things change the more they stay the same. Did someone say intractable?

Wait a minute, I thought Jared brought peace to the Middle East? Didn't he get a Noble Peace Prize for it?

You are so close. I’ll give you a hint. Jared is no longer in a position to keep the peace.

Thanks Democrats!

Sure and then Biden f'cked it up.

YES both statements are false.... Neither need to be brought up in this thread.

This subject has been gotten after for so long and so many times such that all is fair game here. Jared and the Abraham Peace Accord as Middle East Peace was outright hype.

No he got the Nobel prizes for both Medicine and Economics for his Covid work. Trump got the Peace prize.

Yes and we should ignore everything that happened after 1967. That is a good idea.

You keep wanting to blame this on everyone, but Israel. When everyone is responsible for this whole mess. It is really unfair to only be blaming one side. And to let the side occupying the other off the hook is even worse, since they are the ones with most power in this situation.

I did say in my previous post that it is absurd to say that since Israel was shelled in the 1960s, they should never give the land back to those that lived there. But apparently didn’t read my post, because you felt the need to show that Israel was shelled from there in 1960s, which I already said.

But sure if you ignore everything that happened before and everything that happened after that, Israel did nothing wrong. I just think that is a crazy argument to insist that you can only judge the situation on one incident and ignore everything that preceded and followed that incident.

It is hard to have little, if any, sympathy for Palestine when the folks running things, HAMAS, have a charter that makes it their goal to destroy Israel completely. No peace, no negotiation, no two state solution, just you die and we live where you currently live. If Hamas came out today and denounced that charter and recognized Israel as a rightful state and entitled to even a part of the land they are fighting over it might be a start.


As an observer, it seems easier to side with Israel when Hamas takes the approach they do.

I personally don’t find the argument “since some people in 1947, who are all dead, wanted to wipe Israel off the map, Israel in 2021 has the right wipe anyone they choose off the map.” A great argument. I mean Israel is not following the 1947 partition.

Wiping Israel off the map is wrong, but it is also wrong for Israel to wipe people off the map. This should not be a controversial point.

No side here is innocent, so stop laying the blame solely on one side.

You think Hamas runs thing in the West Bank?

Let me ask you a question, who controls the roads and infrastructure in the West Bank? Is it Hamas?

I think you would have more sympathy if you knew who was actually in charge.

I think it’s clear this is Israel’s position as well. Their citizens are quite literally squatting and stealing the homes of Palestinians. This is a slow, measured take-over of currently held Palestinian land, aided by their allies. Unwavering support for Israel is akin to that of our military and police force. Believe it or not they aren’t always in the right and it’s OK to hold them accountable, when appropriate. I’d argue it’s imperative they be held accountable.

First, withdrawing from Sinai and removing settlments from Gaza was not done to to stop rocket attacks, it was about peace with Egypt. Since the goal was to stop Egypt being an existential threat to Israel. So it was not expected that suddenly rockets would stop coming from Lebanon, because suddenly Israel was out of the Sinai. It should not be framed as that deal did not work for Israel, it is way more important for Egypt to be on their side than a few rocket attacks. Not to mention the increased safety of IDF forces that move caused, dead enlisted kids is bad.

Second, does Israel even appear to care about causing more rocket attacks?

What happens when Israel steal more land, more rocket attacks.

What happens when they kill a bunch of civilians, more rocket attacks. They even admit this:


You know no insurgency was ever put down? By causing a bunch of civilian casualties. Yet here is Israel knowing that it will cause more rocket attacks and doing it anyway.

Israel must be taught a ‘lesson’, Erdogan tells Putin (msn.com)

Now Erdogan trying to drum up folks to intervene against Israel.


Let me ask you a questions, has HAMAS or the PLO ever renounced the charter or the well known position they want Israel wiped off the map? When HAMAS comes out and says they want to live in peace with Israel, do not want to kill them and see them as a legitimate nation state with a rightful claim to the land, we can talk.

Until then, I don't put much blame on the israelis for protecting themselves each time they are shelled, or making life difficult for Hamas. They are living a few miles from each other. Hard to be nice to the guy that publicly says he wants you dead.

As an American, I want Biden to stay out of it.

Can you answer my question first?

I will make it easy, who controls the courts in Easy Jerusalem, Hamas or Israel?

Because you claimed Hamas was in charge. Is that true?

You are the one that has only blamed one side for this mess and have justified it by only pointing to individual points in time and then ignoring other points in time. That is disingenuous.

You can’t justify Israel wiping Palestine off the map. That is not justified. It is not justified stealing their land and building settlements. Those settlements show that Israel does not want peace, because there is no way a two state solution would result in those settlements being part of Israel. They are Israel slowly wiping Palestine off the map. But that is apparently fine for you. That is not a bad thing. Millions of people losing their home and having nowhere to go is fine for you.

The fact is no side here is innocent and we shouldn’t pretend that one side is innocent here. Especially when that side is the one with overwhelming power.

OK, but what should Palestinians do if they're illegally displaced from their homes? What's their recourse? To parrot AOC, you have to address both sides. Saying Israel can defend itself is not controversial, for most people. But if you refuse to address the reciprocal question of what Palestinians can do then you are picking a side.

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

But in this thread you have only blamed one side.

So no answer then? Permanent apartheid is not a long-term solution and no-one should accept it. But things were *relatively* calm recently. You could point to a number of sparks for the recent fighting but the most central appear to be evictions (ongoing but most recently) in Sheikh Jarrah of Palestinians families from East Jerusalem, adjudicated in courts that will entertain (grant) Jewish claims to homes that have been Palestinian since the 50s but won't hear Palestinian claims to their properties in West Jerusalem.

No-one wants to see rockets but the onus is on anyone whose refusing to extend any sympathy to the Palestinians to explain exactly how they should respond in the face of increasingly aggressive state discrimination, regardless of history.

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

this is really all that needs to be said. They both claim the land is theirs and both can make an argument. However, the one with the most power ( military) usually wins in these situations. Let them fight it out might be the way to go.

To put it in context of the United States, the Native American indians could be launching rockets at us from inside their reservations but that would not last long. Historically, we took their land, and now claim it as our own. Why, because we could defeat them in battle. It's the way it has always worked. If they had better warriors or forces, then maybe we are all living in the Cherokee Nation instead of the USA.


I side with the US who has labeled one of the parties as a ally and the other as a terrorist organization that we don't even speak to officially.

Yep, look at all those crappy warriors in the middle. I'd like to imagine Israel would be a little hesitant to explore your analogy further but who knows these days.

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

If no one else would jump in, I bet Israel would be happy to fight it out and get it settled once and for all.

If I am king mediator, I suggest Israel stop all blockades of Gaza, no more settlements and no harrasing of Arabs that want to cross in and out of Israel to worship.

In exchange, Hamas and the Palestinians have to sign a document denouncing the Hamas charter, acknowledging Israel's rights as a country and claim to the currently held territory, and agreeing to a finalized set of borders and lines of ownership for each party.

It doesn't appear that our leaders see it the way you see it with regard to who is the at fault party. They are calling one a Terrorist's Organization and one is simply defending itself.


Secretary of State Antony Blinken noted Thursday that there are "fundamental differences between a terrorist organization, Hamas, that is indiscriminately raining down rockets -- in fact, targeting civilians -- and Israel's response defending itself, that is targeting the terrorists." Biden similarly said that Israel "has a right to defend itself."


House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, too, echoed that message. "Israel has the right to defend herself against this assault, which is designed to sow terror and undermine prospects for peace," she said in a statement Tuesday.
"Hamas’s accelerating violence only risks killing more civilians, including innocent Palestinians," Pelosi continued.


In Washington, U.S. President Joe Biden said he spoke with Netanyahu about calming the fighting but also backed the Israeli leader by saying "there has not been a significant overreaction."


I support Biden and Pelosi on this one.

Why haven't you answered my questions yet? Because you appear to have a fundamental misunderstanding here. You said that Hamas runs things in Palestine.

This is not a choice between Israel and Hamas, that sets up a false choice that you are making.

Logically, the above captures the essence of it I think. But all of the myriad factions and their own self-interests add even more complexity.

A good read is Shipler's book (pulitzer prize winner) ....
https://www.amazon.com/...omised/dp/0553447513

Shipler was a NYT columnist, in Israel during/after he wrote the first edition. It's still a relevant read today.

ps. I was a kid/teen in Israel and Shipler's son was in the same grade and class as I was. Some other kid's parent was also the Newsweek correspondent at the time (when Newsweek was a thing). I read Shipler's book a few years after moving on from living there. Recommend it.

Do you support Biden and Pelosi on this one? Do you agree Hamas is a terrorist organization as the US states? Not much more to discuss other than that. We have a policy of not bowing to terrorist and defeating them is a stated goal of our country. There is no two sides based upon what we hear from Biden and company. It's Israel v the terrorists.

In a readout of Biden’s call on Wednesday with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the White House said Biden “conveyed his unwavering support for Israel’s security and for Israel’s legitimate right to defend itself and its people.”

I used to work with a guy from the Palestine. He was sick and tired of Hamas, Fatah, Iran etc. He said lets just have a decent war and settle this endless shit once and for all.

I’m assuming you weren’t working in Palestine, hence he wouldn’t be on the ground when his proposed war was happening…

I was never in Palestine. As for his proposed war, you know how the saying goes: the further you are from the war, the less chances you have to actually go in one, the braver you are