This subject has been gotten after for so long and so many times such that all is fair game here. Jared and the Abraham Peace Accord as Middle East Peace was outright hype.

No he got the Nobel prizes for both Medicine and Economics for his Covid work. Trump got the Peace prize.

Yes and we should ignore everything that happened after 1967. That is a good idea.

You keep wanting to blame this on everyone, but Israel. When everyone is responsible for this whole mess. It is really unfair to only be blaming one side. And to let the side occupying the other off the hook is even worse, since they are the ones with most power in this situation.

I did say in my previous post that it is absurd to say that since Israel was shelled in the 1960s, they should never give the land back to those that lived there. But apparently didn’t read my post, because you felt the need to show that Israel was shelled from there in 1960s, which I already said.

But sure if you ignore everything that happened before and everything that happened after that, Israel did nothing wrong. I just think that is a crazy argument to insist that you can only judge the situation on one incident and ignore everything that preceded and followed that incident.

It is hard to have little, if any, sympathy for Palestine when the folks running things, HAMAS, have a charter that makes it their goal to destroy Israel completely. No peace, no negotiation, no two state solution, just you die and we live where you currently live. If Hamas came out today and denounced that charter and recognized Israel as a rightful state and entitled to even a part of the land they are fighting over it might be a start.


As an observer, it seems easier to side with Israel when Hamas takes the approach they do.

I personally don’t find the argument “since some people in 1947, who are all dead, wanted to wipe Israel off the map, Israel in 2021 has the right wipe anyone they choose off the map.” A great argument. I mean Israel is not following the 1947 partition.

Wiping Israel off the map is wrong, but it is also wrong for Israel to wipe people off the map. This should not be a controversial point.

No side here is innocent, so stop laying the blame solely on one side.

You think Hamas runs thing in the West Bank?

Let me ask you a question, who controls the roads and infrastructure in the West Bank? Is it Hamas?

I think you would have more sympathy if you knew who was actually in charge.

I think it’s clear this is Israel’s position as well. Their citizens are quite literally squatting and stealing the homes of Palestinians. This is a slow, measured take-over of currently held Palestinian land, aided by their allies. Unwavering support for Israel is akin to that of our military and police force. Believe it or not they aren’t always in the right and it’s OK to hold them accountable, when appropriate. I’d argue it’s imperative they be held accountable.

First, withdrawing from Sinai and removing settlments from Gaza was not done to to stop rocket attacks, it was about peace with Egypt. Since the goal was to stop Egypt being an existential threat to Israel. So it was not expected that suddenly rockets would stop coming from Lebanon, because suddenly Israel was out of the Sinai. It should not be framed as that deal did not work for Israel, it is way more important for Egypt to be on their side than a few rocket attacks. Not to mention the increased safety of IDF forces that move caused, dead enlisted kids is bad.

Second, does Israel even appear to care about causing more rocket attacks?

What happens when Israel steal more land, more rocket attacks.

What happens when they kill a bunch of civilians, more rocket attacks. They even admit this:


You know no insurgency was ever put down? By causing a bunch of civilian casualties. Yet here is Israel knowing that it will cause more rocket attacks and doing it anyway.

Israel must be taught a ‘lesson’, Erdogan tells Putin (msn.com)

Now Erdogan trying to drum up folks to intervene against Israel.


Let me ask you a questions, has HAMAS or the PLO ever renounced the charter or the well known position they want Israel wiped off the map? When HAMAS comes out and says they want to live in peace with Israel, do not want to kill them and see them as a legitimate nation state with a rightful claim to the land, we can talk.

Until then, I don't put much blame on the israelis for protecting themselves each time they are shelled, or making life difficult for Hamas. They are living a few miles from each other. Hard to be nice to the guy that publicly says he wants you dead.

As an American, I want Biden to stay out of it.

Can you answer my question first?

I will make it easy, who controls the courts in Easy Jerusalem, Hamas or Israel?

Because you claimed Hamas was in charge. Is that true?

You are the one that has only blamed one side for this mess and have justified it by only pointing to individual points in time and then ignoring other points in time. That is disingenuous.

You can’t justify Israel wiping Palestine off the map. That is not justified. It is not justified stealing their land and building settlements. Those settlements show that Israel does not want peace, because there is no way a two state solution would result in those settlements being part of Israel. They are Israel slowly wiping Palestine off the map. But that is apparently fine for you. That is not a bad thing. Millions of people losing their home and having nowhere to go is fine for you.

The fact is no side here is innocent and we shouldn’t pretend that one side is innocent here. Especially when that side is the one with overwhelming power.

OK, but what should Palestinians do if they're illegally displaced from their homes? What's their recourse? To parrot AOC, you have to address both sides. Saying Israel can defend itself is not controversial, for most people. But if you refuse to address the reciprocal question of what Palestinians can do then you are picking a side.

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

But in this thread you have only blamed one side.

So no answer then? Permanent apartheid is not a long-term solution and no-one should accept it. But things were *relatively* calm recently. You could point to a number of sparks for the recent fighting but the most central appear to be evictions (ongoing but most recently) in Sheikh Jarrah of Palestinians families from East Jerusalem, adjudicated in courts that will entertain (grant) Jewish claims to homes that have been Palestinian since the 50s but won't hear Palestinian claims to their properties in West Jerusalem.

No-one wants to see rockets but the onus is on anyone whose refusing to extend any sympathy to the Palestinians to explain exactly how they should respond in the face of increasingly aggressive state discrimination, regardless of history.

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

this is really all that needs to be said. They both claim the land is theirs and both can make an argument. However, the one with the most power ( military) usually wins in these situations. Let them fight it out might be the way to go.

To put it in context of the United States, the Native American indians could be launching rockets at us from inside their reservations but that would not last long. Historically, we took their land, and now claim it as our own. Why, because we could defeat them in battle. It's the way it has always worked. If they had better warriors or forces, then maybe we are all living in the Cherokee Nation instead of the USA.


I side with the US who has labeled one of the parties as a ally and the other as a terrorist organization that we don't even speak to officially.

Yep, look at all those crappy warriors in the middle. I'd like to imagine Israel would be a little hesitant to explore your analogy further but who knows these days.

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek