Probably a different person but a friend of mine who was racing had to do CPR on a fellow racer. Guy collapsed during bike right after climb, she said at mile 21. She also happens to be a nurse anesthetist. Guy had thready pulse and agonal breathing. Guy was in 60-64 AG. I'm guessing cardiac.

According to this article:

https://www.thespectrum.com/...riathlon/4912261001/

the swim and bike incidents involved separate people.

What a horrible article to characterize deaths in Triathlon as common. wtf.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Good on your friend for stopping! In the heat of competition there are a lot of folks who might ride right by and not sacrifice their race.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

She was secretly wanting race to be cancelled and was very undertrained. She just wanted to finish the race. Maybe some fate played a roll in this.

There was a story a few years back on two RNs who did chicago marathon. A perennial chicago marathoner had collapsed in front of them and they started CPR and saved his life. Doing the race probably saved his life since CPR was started ASAP.

I don't know much, but my wife saw them perform compressions for quite a while. She's pretty shaken up. Really shitty. It's pretty surreal thinking this was a real person who showed up, checked his bike in where I did, struggled to put his wetsuit on, and started down the ramp just before me. We've been talking about it most of the day. So sad for his family.

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JustinDoesTriathlon

Owner, FuelRodz Endurance.

I witnessed that kind of disregard in a 100 mile canoe race I did years ago. Guy fell out of his canoe and couldn't swim. It only took me a couple minutes to get his boat righted and him back in it. He never said a word to me. My Boy Scout training from many years earlier kicked in as we trained for these things.

Going off topic. But getting in a canoe when not being able to swim is dumber than 2 dumb things tied together.
To do a 100 miler in one without being able to swim? 100x dumb.

General reply to thread

1. Was this rolling or TT start which I assume is yes?
2. Was there an opportunity to warm up?
3. What was water temp?

Hard for the family. Every race I go to I always say goodbye to my family like I may not come back. It is crazy at an intellectual level that I feel I need to do that and still go to race, but life is full or risk and rewards. Not sure most of us would want to die during the swim leg but it is a potential risk we take albeit small

Rolling every 5s, no, 61 I believe.

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JustinDoesTriathlon

Owner, FuelRodz Endurance.

It is probably not helpful having no opp to get in the water to get moving before at 61F, however, rolling start also offers the option to ease into the event too.

i didn't see the word "common" used in the article. what i read was:

"Deaths in extreme endurance sports are not rare. According to reports from various news outlets there were seven recorded deaths in IRONMAN Triathlons, and 20 deaths among all other triathlon events, in 2019. The swim course has also been acknowledged by IRONMAN racers to be one of the most dangerous aspects of the race."

i don't think that's a terribly unfair characterization. you could of course write nearly the same thing about a marathon. 1 in 75,000, if i remember correctly. IM mortality may be higher than the typical triathlon.

if ironman services, say, 425,000 athletes a year (just a wild guess, but, i'm multiplying 170 races x 2,500 athletes), then 7 deaths meant you had a 1-in-60,000 chance of dying. is that "not rare"? i don't know. you tell me.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I suppose we can disagree on what "not rare" means. I would say that's a relatively rare occurrence.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

I'd view it as relatively rare when compared to routine things

- 1 in 2 people get cancer in the life

- 3.58 million deaths in the USA last year from heart disease. = worse than 1:100 people die from it each year

- cancer deaths not far behind heart disease

So the fatality rate from Tri is a whole lot better (much rarer) than those.

The no swim warm up was really a bummer. I suspect covid restrictions is why they didn't allow it. There was definitely an area to the right of the boat ramp available for warm ups. They should've just allowed us to warm up there. There was no social distancing at the swim start anyway. No one listened to the announcers when they asked us to line up on the markers 6ft apart. We did get masks at least. Walking through "puddles" at the swim start with no warm up was gross, but not surprising either. The finish area was a zoo. They gave us KN95 masks to wear after and everyone just ditched them outside of the athlete tent areas. I cant blame anyone. Those were super hard to breathe out of. Especially post race. I hope ironman just takes this lesson learned for Worlds. Just give us a swim warmup of some kind.

In my experience, ironman races rarely have a swim warm-up. I wouldn't plan on them having one at worlds.

in my opinion, a swim warm-up is a swim safety best practice.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I have not raced 70.3 Worlds since 2015 which is when they were introducing the swim smart program with warmup areas in all venues (or were supposed to). They have warmup areas at Zelle Am See that year and 2014 they did at Tremblant Worlds. Did they get rid of warmup areas in the last few (Nice, South Africa, Australia)?

Probably by Sep all the Covid19 distancing stuff outdoors gets lifted in much of the developed world anyway due to enough vaccine penetratiion so then people not regarding distancing at race starts and finishes becomes less of a worry overall.

So in ironman's defense, I havent raced too much. However, I did st George in 2017 where there was no swim warm up for amateur athletes, sounds like that hasn't changed. I fail to see why they wouldn't have one at this race but then have one at worlds. If they have one, awesome, all I was trying to say is they definitely haven't done it in the past, so plan to not have one just in case.

I agree absolutely. Which is why I was warning whoever I replied to that they might want to plan ahead in case there isn't one at worlds. To my knowledge, they've never done a swim warm-up at the st George 70.3

61 is not warm! I did my first OWS of the year today in 58 degree water. Took me about 4 minutes for things to get numb enough that I could actually swim.

I know the logistics are tricky, but still...

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

I thought IM acknowledged that a warm up swim was best practice when they did a review a few years ago after other swim deaths. I'm not sure how they allow for a swim warm up and a rolling (line-up) start. I imagine people would forego the warm up to get a 'better' place in line.

World’s will likely be a warm swim too. I would guess not wetsuit legal

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Team Zoot So Cal

I thought that a swim warm-up area was one of the conditions of the swim safe initiative a few years back.

I believe that was the case pre covid. Maybe not the scenario post Covid19 as they work out the covid19 safe challenges?

I remember doing immt one year and the water temp was 58....the swim warm-up was very important. It's interesting that so many things are being implemented for athlete safety due to covid concerns, but not having a swim warm-up area, especially when the water is cold, makes absolutely no sense in this regard:( Feel so bad for those families....

From the Swim Smart page on the IM site:

7. Warm Up on Race Day

• Arrive early enough on race day for a proper warm-up prior to the start, preferably in the water.
• If you aren’t able to warm up in the water, spend between 5 and 10 minutes loosening up your muscles with arm swings and other gentle movements. A light jog or brisk walk can also help increase circulation and prepare your body to race.

I strongly believe in having a warm-up swim area at a race site, but the athlete information guide did state that an "in water warm up swim will not be available at this years event due to safety measures implemented at this venue" and that participants could swim in the lake at/near the race site the two days prior to the race.

My condolences to the family and friends of our fellow athlete who passed away on Saturday.

For me the personal trade off between:

1. dying in the swim impacted by lack of warmup or
2. not dying from contracting covid19 due to having to spead out line up thus cutting off swim warmup

I would prefer the swim warmup and be crammed with masks in line ups that are not distanced, since I will be outdoors with low risk of giving Covid19 to anyone or getting it. I'll take the cold swim warmup area for sure. If I am in the line up for racing this year, it does not mean I want to roll the dice on swim related death any more than normal years.

Totally agree...

Comparing deaths in triathlon to cancer and heart disease is just lazy. Make the comparison to other accidental, unnatural, deaths if you really want to make your point.

F#$% me...no in-water warm ups before races? If this is the case due to the fear of covid, you shouldn't even be having the race. People will end up bunched together anyway.

I brought swim bands to warm up, but they called for everyone who expected to swim faster than 30-something (the speakers on my end of t1 kept cutting out and I could not hear the actual number) to line up like 45 minutes before the start. Caught me by surprise and I had to throw my wetsuit on as fast as I could and did not have time to use the bands.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Dan,

I agree! so why doesnt it happen anymore? Or why is the culture of RDs to not allow it?

Having switched to xterra, who still have allowed swim warm ups, is a godsend. It really helps everyone and I have done 4 years worth of xterras and all the major US races and worlds twice... not once has warming up prior been an issue. Folks get out of the water in time and it works so well.

But all "road" or traditional tris, no swim warm up.

Its a best practice and it needs to be adopted asap.

daved

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http://www.theundergroundcoach.com

Hey Dave, I don't think there is a culture of race directors not allowing it, there is simply less logistics if you don't have it. If you have a warmup area, you have lifguard it and figure out flow so it does not get in the way of the race and also have a means of athletes to leave warmup and go back in line.

I suspect one of the reasons MAY be because there is no way to keeping athletes Covid19 distanced in a warmup zone, whereas in the rest of the race, athletes can be distanced enough and have a deterministic flow that keeps are "permit givers happy". So in essence in the zeal to keep athletes distanced, permit givers may be creating more hazards/risk for athletes.

I personally do the jogging warmup when the swim warmup is not available, but if you are doing a full IM and actually even a half IM, you really don't want to jog more distance than you have to all day.

Hey Dev,

Sure but I’m talking even Pre-COVID and I also was a race director (of sorts) I helped a local guy who runs (now) many races including open water events.

He had options to do swim warm ups and time after time just didn’t. Mentioning reasons of logistics sure but I think what Dan and I are saying is...

The safety issue should be a reason TO do a swim warm up. Not the opposite... which seems to be an assumed practice and paradigm.

Daved

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http://www.theundergroundcoach.com

There was no swim warm up at either Chattanooga or Port Elizabeth 70.3 Worlds.

At Port Elizabeth there were Athletes getting reprimanded for going into the surf to get water into there wet suits. Would be surprised if they allowed it in Sept.

1 in 5 people die of cancer.

btw, I would say 7 out of 170 Ironman events having a death is not rare.

And even 1 out of 60,000 for a one day event. If someone dropped dead at every college football game or Ed Sheeran concert, that would be kinda a big deal.

I guess you could make an argument that every other cause of death other than cancer and heart disease is rare, but what's the point?

You can quibble about what the definition of "rare" is, but death at triathlons is a thing.

i was not aware there was a culture of no swim warm-up in triathlon. if that's the case, i think we need to address this.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Oh I 1000% agree. Back in 2012 I did extensive consultation with then IM COO Steve Meckfessel and with Andrew Messick since I had done so many Mdot races all over the world and could share to them information from the field on the viability of swim warmups or no swim warmups and why. I also pushed for the rolling start back then which I know many hated for saftey reasons. Many who came to the sport post year 2000 had this misguided view that 1500-3000 person hand to hand combat mass starts were a "tradition" that should not be messed with but the reality is that most Ironman events were smaller fields originally in the 80's and 90's and even by 1993 IM Germany (now Challenge Roth) had split their race in to numerous waves given their crammed canal start.

In any case, I am for the warmups and for rolling starts which I had pushed hard on with Ironman. I am distraut if the swim warmup gets thrown out due to Covid19 formats. Feels like throwing out baby with bath water. I am not a sufficiently frequent customer to go and give them input from multiple venues anymore. Previously in a given year I may do 4-8 of their events all over.

The warm-up area could have the same rules as the start area. Stay distanced when entering the water. It would require additional signage, a couple more lifeguards and a couple more volunteers to remind people.

USAT nationals in Cleveland and Milwaukee (I think) didn't have a swim warm-up area and that was pre Covid. They did allow a warm-up swim of several minutes at the start line for those in the next wave before their wave began. That's an advantage of wave starts.

I don't think permit givers have any idea that they could be creating more hazards/risk for athletes when they require distancing at an outdoor event. That's on the RD to explain to the permit giver and seek a solution to avoid that hazard.

I was there this weekend. Firstly the pre race swim chute was packed...no distancing whatsoever (with the exception of the very front, sub 27 min people). So, if that’s the reason for no swim warmup, then it didn’t work.

There was a place to the right of the start that easily could have been a warmup area. For some reason they didn’t allow people to swim there on Friday or Saturday but was fine Thursday. Made no sense, they had no lifeguards on Thursday and could have easily had several on Saturday.

The real logistical challenge was getting from there to the swim chute. With the pros exiting and hoping on their bikes by 7:25 or so, everyone would need to be leaving the water by 7:10 latest to get safely across the first part of the bike course and then do the long walk around to swim start...challenging but maybe doable, especially since it look at least 45 minutes to get everyone in the water.

Alternatively, they could flip the start and go in on the right and exit on the left (facing the water) and have the swim start chute go off to the right down the hill...this would have allowed for free and easy warmups. IMO....

I’m no expert, and IM is, but I do think every effort should be made to allow in water warmups, especially in big crowded races with cold water...

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Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

I'm pretty sure your number are off by a really long way. Total deaths in the US for 2019 was just short of 2.9 million from all causes.

And that's if it was even 61F. The very first year of IMSG, the lake was very cold, and 'inverted' with the winds in the days before the race. Race officials kept claiming it was 60 degrees. Had a guy on one of the surfboards where I stopped to catch my breath tell me it was actually 55.
I ended up bailing out because I could feel my core getting cold before I was even halfway through the swim. But there were SO many people in the med tent after the swim.

I have had similar experiences, and actually did get to speak to some higher ups in 2018 about this issue.....I remember one year in LP there were over 3000 in Mirror Lake for the mass start...that was madness and def not safe. It also seems to me, in the 90s and early 2000s, that it was a more experienced crowd? I don't know..maybe not..I always hung back and started where I should, so felt fine, but lots of people got pushed over/swam over etc....It needs to be addressed. Either they are trying to make the swim safer, or they are not...it shouldn't be different race to race.

I did the "dreaded" 2012 IMSTG and I recall not warming up but treading water long enough waiting for the mass start to acclimate to the cold temperature. Of course once the winds hit us the water temp was the least of our worries. Why is it that these IM races in Utah seemed "jinxed"?

Condolences to the family and friends of the person that passed!

I do not have the vast Ironman race experience of others. But all the races I have done that logistically could allow a warm-up have had warm ups, including the last WC race. The races that were logistically challenging were New Orleans (very limited access to the water from a dock), Augusta (only access from a temporary doc & downstream), Chattanooga (only access from a small dock & strong current).

River swims and others with restrictive access are very tricky for meaningful warm ups, especially if they are doing continuous TT starts. Those with group starts may be able to pull it off, but they would probably stretch-out the overall start considerably. Not sure that anyone has figured out a grand solution. (Races with easy logistic access to water that do not allow warm-ups have no excuse, IMO. But, I have not witnessed that first-hand.)

Edit: Is no swim warm-up a Covid thing, or just a coincidence of the races that may have been logistically challenged for warm-up.

i don't understand how covid could impact this. i have never been in close proximity to other swimmers in a warm up area. the unfortunate truth is that a warm up area is granted, but not liberally used. i would not race a race that did not allow for a warm up. that's a hard stop for me.

now, i did a race, the last triathlon i did, that didn't have a warm up. and i'm entered in that race again, this july, my first tri back most likely. i'm going to prevail on the race org to have a warm up this time.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Would be interesting to know whether either individual was recently vaccinated as we learn more about the interaction between the cardiac response to the vaccine in the context of extreme endurance sport.

that's a pretty small sample size, and pretty well prone to correlation. half of america's adults are fully vaccinated. i got my vaccine shots, and i live. probably 2/3 of the race competitors are fully vaccinated, and recently. they lived. i'm not sure what the point would be.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I have done IM 70.3 St. George 4 times and I have never seen a warm-up area offered at the race. The race is one of my favorites but this has always baffled me. It is a bit difficult logistically to offer a warm-up area because the access to the water is limited from the transition area. However, I agree that it should be offered even if it is logistically difficult. I think the warm up area could be set up next to the swim exit area. It would be crowded for sure but I think it is critical when the swim is so freaking cold.

Of the IM events I have done I would say that IM 70.3 Boulder has the best swim warm-up set up. It is a bit crowded but it is very accessible and went a long way to me starting my day well when I raced there. And that's a warm race! I think it is critical to have a warm up area on cold swims. Every time I have raced St. George I have had a bit of a panic episode. I have come to expect it and I know how to work my way through it but I can see how somebody could be severely affected by being thrown into that cold water with $1,500+ other people.

Now, would a proper warm up have prevented this death? It's impossible to tell but anything, that is reasonable to do, that can reduce anxiety should be pursued. I would also relax the wetsuit rules for warm water. For some people the anxiety of swimming without a wetsuit is wayyyy more detrimental than any overheating from swimming with a wetsuit in warm water. With the prevalence of neoprene shorts you could even make those legal under any temperature for amateur athletes. Just make the wetsuit (or neoprene shorts) the norm for the amateur races! Good/competitive swimmers will still have their competitive advantage and a huge number of people will feel safe while racing.

If you want to grow the sport then USAT and IM should do all they can so that participants are not seriously asking the question "could I die at this race today?" every time they get in the water. People don't ask themselves that question when road racing and trail running and even in cycling events (which are probably more dangerous) people don't think that way. All reasonable measures should be taken to make the amateur feel as safe as possible in the swim. Things as simple as warm-up areas and 5mm of neoprene under any circumstances would go a long way to achieve this.

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http://dontletitdefeatyou.blogspot.com

Swim warm-up is not a hard stop for me, but it probably should be.

I am prone to swim panic. I thought I was over it, but I did a race last weekend with warm-up. It was my first open water swim in a long time. I felt the panic coming during my warm-up, and I extended my warm up a bit until I felt comfortable. The swim was a non-event because of that.

In a no warm-up races (which I have not had since 2018), I will swim wide of the pack to be as alone as possible until I feel comfortable.

I agree with pushing warm-up hard. But then my selfish side would not want to see a race go away because of that as a hard requirement.

The point is this is an experiment. We are the sample. We are the data.

The warmup as presently conceived seems not too helpful in my mind. I get in the water and warmup and then I have to get in line and cool off. By the time I start the swim I am not warmed up.

I think unless you are at the pointy end of the spear taking a few minutes to swim relaxed at the beginning of the swim is very beneficial. You can swim wide warm up a bit and then enter the fray. Sooner or later somebody from a later wave comes by that one can draft on. Swimming relaxed for the first five minutes or so at most might result in being 1 min slower at most I would think. You can screw up your race during the swim but are unlikely to win there. I am in my mid fifties and usually swim 35 min for half and 1:08 for a full.

Not to you in particular but is there a way of having people swim a few hundred metres and then cross a timing cable of some sort that triggers the start of actual racing?

---

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

This is a super cool idea. It is like a flying start and could incorporate a no-impact warm-up in races with limited logistics.

(I can imagine objections from people who believe that they only have fitness for exactly 1.2 or 2.4 miles, but this seems great on the surface.)

Truly terrible to die doing a recreational activity; my heart goes out to his family.

I'm a terrible open-water swimmer (I can go all day in the pool, but put me in open water and I'm done in seconds: panic attacks, flailing like an idiot, etc.) so I stick with duathlon...that's where I started in 2011, and that's where I'll stay. Thus, I stay out of the water and eliminate that risk to myself or others around me. I'm in no way saying that this athlete was a bad swimmer (most likely the opposite, given the even they were participating in), but without a warm-up, even the best swimmers are at the mercy of the elements.

That all being said, I would like to see a swim warm-up be mandatory; there is a large amount of data available citing the risks of high-intensity cold-water swimming exertion without a warm-up. Our RDs need to try and mitigate risk as best they can, and giving athletes a chance to warm-up and perform at their best seems like an easy win for everyone.

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- John
"Have courage, and be kind."

St Croix had this with a race start on an island 200m away form the swim exit. But it would be easy, by making people swim a 200m loop to the swim start line up. It is just a matter of course design if the race is not jumping of a dock or boat.

When IM St.George 70.3 was first held in 2013 (I believe they also did it in 2014) the swim start was a deep water start. It was still done in waves but you had about 5 mins or so to get to the start buoys and when the time was up a guy in a kayak would send you out. This was soo much better because you could basically slowly breaststroke to the start and then swim in place until it was time to go. Much better (psychologically) than "beep", get in, freeze your balls off, and panic.

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http://dontletitdefeatyou.blogspot.com

at IMAZ in 2019 I was amazed at how many people basically made their own swim acclamation area. The swim started by getting in the water and making an almost immediate right turn, I saw multiple people in front of me get in the water, go straight, swim 5-10 strokes, then pop up and stand up again. I am guessing this was to get used to the water temp. I think it is a really smart idea if you are not used to cold water, but also disappointing they had to use part of their race time to do so.

ummm, in your experiment the only sample is the swimmer who didn't survive.

What do the really COLD races (Patagonman XTL, Norseman, etc.) do? From the videos I've seen (I'll never participate in one), it doesn't look like there's a warm up. It looks like - jump off the boat, blow the horn as soon as everyone is in the water, now swim.

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Not a coach. Not a FOP Tri/swimmer/biker/runner. Barely a MOP AGer.
But I'm learning and making progress.

St George this year had an archway midway through the swim that captured our split from our ankle chip. They could have a similar deal for the start of the swim a little ways from the boat ramp.

Yeah, but that's why they are Xtreme. Horrendously cold water, crazy weather and elevation on both the bike and the run. These races attract a very different crowd that understands it could be a dangerous event.

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http://dontletitdefeatyou.blogspot.com

Yes, yes, but I was just mentioning them tongue-in-cheek.

However, I would argue that most of the Tri crowd understands that it could be dangerous. I know I understand that throughout training and the event I could have a cardiac event, cycle crash or an unforeseen danger that would do more than just end my training/event.

But I guess we're getting off subject.

It's always sad and a loss to many people when someone dies in any sporting event. My condolences to the family.

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Not a coach. Not a FOP Tri/swimmer/biker/runner. Barely a MOP AGer.
But I'm learning and making progress.

I think this could be a great idea, if they can create a little bit of a bottleneck at the start 200m out. Like send 5 people at a time swimming out to that start 5 or 6 minutes before they will be allowed through the arch. That way they have to go slow, or tread water for a bit before they are allowed to start racing. Otherwise, people will just start their race 200m early.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Point is pretty simple. He stated it would be interesting to see how recently they were vaccinated as it may have had an impact on that individual. I know a few people who have had terrible reactions (upper body, racing heart etc.) to their 2nd shot.

As far as I am aware, there are not any warnings for people to limit exercise or activity after a shot. It MAY impact some.

In 2019, I was doing a local triathlon where a gentleman had a cardiac event about 5 or 10 steps in front of me. He put his hands on his knees as he leaned up against a guard rail on the side of the road. It was the 'out' portion of an out and back. About 10 minutes later, I saw him on the back portion. A teammate of mine was assisting him to the aid station.
He died...
I was the 1st person that might have been able to have a clue that he was having a heart condition, and I didn't notice.
I could've stopped.
I could've notified that aid station that was only a couple hundred yards in front of me and let them know someone was in need.
I simply didn't notice that he stopped for that reason.
I drive by that spot almost daily as it was about 1 1/2 miles from my home.
Tough to know that there was something I could have done to give him a better chance and give him aid couple minutes earlier.

right. but as i said, if you had 2,000 people who were recently vaccinated and did the race with no bad affects, and 2 who were recently vaccinated and had a bad effect, what did you learn? none of the 7 deaths in an IM during 2019 recently had the covid vaccine. so, i don't see what you learn. you guys are smarter than me. i'm just asking.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I agree - forensics of all endurance sport-related deaths have been interesting to me. (marathon, swim, etc). And I'm sure those forensics will be done with this guy. But immediately jumping to "vaccine," I'm not sure is warranted.

This is an aside, from all my informal scanning of the forensics over the decades, we never really get an overall satisfying answer. The causes are myriad. Some had congenital issues they never knew about it. Some had undiagnosed disease. Some had diagnosed disease and knew they were taking a risk. Some are great swimmers. Some are questionable swimmers. Some bizarrely appear like healthy good swimmers who maybe just had a panic attack - maybe just accidentally getting one mouthful of water down a lung is enough to send someone into a bad state of mind.

That’s what was so concerning in the past studies of cardiac events during the swim, the lack of any defining factors of the individuals involved. The data sort of slanted to older males, but experience or lack of didn’t appear to be a factor. What did come out of the studies was the recommendation for a swim warm up.

So imagine you’re sitting in the jury of a wrongful death suit against IM. You hear evidence presented that previous studies and panels (swim safe) recommend a warm up swim. You hear that many triathlons offer them. You hear that COVID protocols may have prevented a warm up, but you also hear of the lack of protocols. You are also told that relief stations were set up in case anyone needed to stop and rest during the swim (from Triathlete magazine post). You hear there was an area available for a warm up. Finally you hear that the professionals were allowed a swim warm up but not age groups.

Why can’t a warm up swim be offered...because it’s inconvenient, that seems like the only reason offered.

Not lazy. Just brings it back to reality.

Want something else ? Approx 13,000 gunshot deaths in the USA each year (based on 2019 figures). And that's perfectly acceptable rate to half the nation at least it seems.

I'm not immediately jumping to the vaccine and I don't feel the original post to which Dan responded to was either. All I'm saying is that it COULD have been a possibility to consider. That's it.

It shouldn't be brushed aside. It should be considered a possibility. And yes, there are many other possible factors that we don't or won't know about. I just felt like Dan's attitude was a bit off-putting. I feel he often displays a prideful attitude that shows he thinks he's better than others.

Someone died. Tragically. Someone isn't going home who came to race. Someone likely lost a dad, husband, brother etc. A poster made a statement about a possible reason to consider and he wasn't smart enough ( my perception of Dan's response).

That's all.

Back when Arizona was a mass start, you had the opportunity for a nice warm up swim to the start line. By going to the 'safer' swim start they've lost the opportunity of the warm up.

In the only race I've done where I couldn't warm up, I did this very thing. I started off to the side and did a mini warm up as everyone else was headed forward. I'm a fairly slow swimmer (and competitor in general), so I didn't really care about the minute or so I lost getting acclimated to the water.

the post asked that question in post-49. i answered it in post-50. those interested can go back and see if i was off-putting or prideful and better than the person to whom i responded. then you jumped in, which is fine. but, again, neither you nor the person raising the question would provide an answer: what are we to learn, if he did?

i regret that you saw my post as off-putting, but i find off-putting the use of a death as a convenient political lever. i'm confident that wasn't your intention. but i can easily see this as the very sort of ideological hammer unfairly used to thwart the attempts of people of goodwill to overcome this pandemic. accordingly, i asked how one would go about establishing that nexus, and i guess i'm not going to get an answer.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Your question: "What are we to learn if he did?"
We could learn that maybe, for some individuals who get or got the vaccine it could cause a fatal response when they are involved in high aerobic or anaerobic activity within _ days of receiving it .

Again, it was a simple response by the poster (great scott) that may or may not have an answer. I think most can agree that the timeline of the vaccine is a quick turnaround (likely due to the worldwide focus and all hands on deck approach) and we don't fully know the possible side effects.

Im not saying there are side effects or that it will cause a death. The poster didn't either. He brought up a question to consider the possible impact.

perhaps we could look at a number of things this man did before the race. perhaps he got the vaccine. perhaps he went to church. perhaps he had a PB&J for breakfast. how much of what he did before the race should we analyze, and i'm fine with analyzing any of it. however, it's unfair to say, "this person did [x] before he raced, and then he died, which means... what?" you can't cast aspersions on an activity or belief or behavior based on that. you can't say, "he got the vaccine, he raced, he died, i'm just throwing it out there!" that's just not fair. it's reckless.

if you had, say, 5 people die, or 8, then yes, because that's a huge anomaly. but 1 is not an anomaly. the onus is on you to explain how you establish a nexus between behavior and result. if you find it off-putting that you're asked to do this, then yes, i'm an off-putter.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Could not agree more, don’t you have a voice in this matter? ;)

maybe. we'll see.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Hey Ed, I just realized that perhaps this was your first race back in the sport after the really bad crash at Nice 70.3 World's then rehab and then a world on perpetual hold. Am I correct? If so, welcome back to racing! I assume you are also racing in Hawaii in a month?

The second post in this thread refers to a second cardiac event during the race. That is what got my attention and prompted my question. Would be interesting to know if those two people had anything in common in their recent health history.

Yes, my first race since Nice! Feels great to be racing again! And yeah, Honu is next!

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Cool, I saw that registration is open for Hawaii70.3, but I can't go race without being stuck in an endless 14 day quarantine and I can't do that, so I have to wait till we have racing in Canada. In the mean time, I hope Ironman puts back warmup swims even with Covid19 procedures!!!

Welcome back to racing. Gald Nice70.3WC crash did not break you and you''re back in the game. Did you get a spot for the 70.3 Worlds?

I don’t know where the swimmer who died started or if a warm up would have prevented it. Maybe it was the backstroker who clearly started in the wrong wave. I can say with certainty, I am disappointed in that some racers seeded themselves way faster in the sub 27 min wave or 27-30 min wave who clearly are not going to swim those times.

Maybe it was to try to get out of the riff raff and have a better chance at clearing so many you’d otherwise have to pass on the bike or avoid high afternoon winds—or hotter temperatures. Whatever the reason it was completely crap you had so many starting up front when they should have been considerably back.

In hindsight I honestly thought 30-33 wave would be the ballpark and realistic. A few ticks over 30 min with having to pass several hundreds on the swim alone. What does this have to do with the death? A lot.

If you’re an inexperienced swimmer posing up front you endanger not only yourself by getting swum over, but are risking other faster swimmers from you moving so slowly —they come up on you faster than they would normally expect & collide. Stressful and painful potentially. Additionally, without all those improperly self seeded athletes, I couldn’t tell you how much time was lost having to try getting around 5-10 shoulder to shoulder packs of swimmer impeding forward movement. But it was a lot —at least 30-40 seconds. Frustrating.

I suggest the faster swimmers should have to provide seeded proof from previous races (verifiable) in the first couple waves. They do that for some running race waves. This way it keeps the slower athletes and faster swimmers out of harm’s way. Plus, it stops those athletes trying to get a jump on conditions from flat out lying about their actual ability.

When I did NXTRI they hosed us down with cold seawater on the deck to get acclimated before we jumped in. Then there was 5-10minutes to warm up before we lined up between two kayaks and the ferry used the horn to start us off

Seriously? Surely folks that would carry on when they may be able to help are in a small minority?
If like me, you have no special skills in that regard and saw someone in difficulty but already being attended to by several people including race officials, I'd carry on. But otherwise I would, and have, stopped just in case.

Are you sure?
I fully agree with what I think you're suggesting. i.e. Knowing the medical history, especially with regards Covid-19 vaccine of 1 or 2 athletes who suffered incidents during a race is not useful.

In fact, in my opinion it would be downright reckless to provide this information, in the absence of substantial and rigorous analysis to support a link. Since that doesn't exist, information about individual incidents should not be in the public domain. Far too many people seem to think individual anecdotes have some value and can be judged by the reader. I believe this is linked to the online trend whereby people "do their own research". That phrase really means looking for material to support what one wants to believe, whether consciously or subconsciously. It's not the righteous taking on of personal responsibility that proponents often suggest. Confirmation bias is not a positive influence on public health, politics, or anything else. While the poster who said it would be interesting to know the vaccine history of these people, most likely means no harm and is sincere; they are suggesting what is actually a misguided and harmful approach, by any logical analysis.

I think you do try to see the world as it is, not just as you'd like it to be. That makes you "smarter" than most. We should all aim for that.

Yeah, I did.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Super. Hopefully you get the race you want after the rehab and race shutdowns!!!

I have/had no chance to do any events that I can try to qualify with (actually no chance of events period). By the time any events happen where I don't cross border and need quarantine on return it rolls over to NZ.

This happens even in the slower groups. I've only done one tri (70.3) and it was swim self-seeded. Knowing I was a slower swimmer and my expected pace, I slotted in the 40-45min group. Not ever doing a race before, I was shocked when I hit the first pack of 5-10 shoulder-to-shoulder. When I hit the second, I wasn't quite as surprised, but I was frustrated. I finished in a little over 41 min (2nd in my 60-64 age group) and thought "Next time I'm going to seed in the next fastest group." Your post teaches me that it's not just the "slow" folks who try to seed in a faster group than they can swim and that I should seed appropriately and look out for the packs of poorly seeded swimmers. I have no thoughts on a solution.

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Not a coach. Not a FOP Tri/swimmer/biker/runner. Barely a MOP AGer.
But I'm learning and making progress.

I think this happens in every Triathlon/running race where people Are asked to self seed. People will either over estimate their ability, or go further forward than they should, because they know others will be doing the same.

Having to prove previous swim times to get in the first few waves seems like a good idea in practice, but would be very difficult to enforce. In running races your bib number will say what wave you are meant to be in. You could try and give faster swimmers lower bib numbers, but it would create a lot of extra hassle.

There were at least 100 people in the under 27 group and I think about 20 actually swam under 27. One young woman, very very large and in a diving wetsuit, started near the front of the sub 27 group. She initially lined up near me in the 27-30 group then decided to move up. She was essentially dog-paddling when I passed her near the beginning of the race on her way to a what must have been a 90 minute swim. I think it was probably a dangerous decision for her to even start this race, and even more so to start in the front.

IM could assign start corrals just like big running races, based on previous results. If you have no previous results, you are assigned a corral near the back.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Swim cap color easily could solve this.

Sad that we lost another athlete and empathies for his family :(

Here is an article I recalled shedding a bit of light on what can be done to avoid troubles.

I have coached more than 500 IM athletes, and we would always recommend a sturdy health check and potentially EKG, at least for first-timers. Ironman France used to have a COMPULSORY health check upon registering at the race venue, or else no racing.

I raced full IM St George in 2011 and I recall it was a water start and plenty of places to warm up. Did they change that?
Water in the reservoir was indeed sub60 but very calm and easy to navigate.

T

Generally speaking, my sympathies to the individual and their family. This was my first event I participated in where someone didn't return to their family, and I'm very saddened by it. I don't know if poor seeding was the cause or could be pinpointed, but it certainly seems to make sense.

I was in the same situation as you - knowing how little I've swam in the past year, but being a swimmer, I self-seeded pretty much in the middle of 30-33. I was pretty sure I could swim 30 min no problem, but I don't like being swam over (I didn't enjoy water polo) so I thought that would be safe. I came in at 30:07 and passed what felt like hundreds of people. I'm fairly sure I would have had another 60-90 seconds faster swim without the weaving I had to do. I know I got cut off by several people and ended up swimming over their legs, I almost got elbowed in the face several times because I came up on people so fast, and I had to make WIDE passes around groups of frantic kicking. Frustrating and I can only imagine that if there's any risk of a medical event, the stress and suddenness of people swimming around you seems like it would play a role. I don't know how you control it - I like the idea of color coded caps pre-race. They managed to figure out how to avoid body marking, so color coding shouldn't be that bad.

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KJ
Swim and Triathlon Coach
AllTerrainEndurance.com
KJ@allterrainendurance.com

I don’t know what color coded caps do for anyone aside from change the color, it still doesn’t solve people from overestimating or flat out lying about swim ability . Either by their own choice or being told by a coach so they can get on the bike with less traffic (even by a few minutes) avoid heat and being with calmer winds as the minutes pass, or not have to navigate the swim with so many around you ( clearer waters). Anyone who does that to tilt things disingenuously in their favor is just not cool.

I still think the faster waves need to have verifiable accounts of ability .
Even one wave is too much —that can add up to literally hundreds of people who shouldn’t be in that wave. THEN color code caps knowing pre-race results on swim prowess is legit, and thus, safer and more fair to those in those waves.

They have the data available to create a ranking system based on past results. Maybe they should use it and for those without past results, they can go to the back of the line or swim a 500/1000 free in a masters swim meet if they want a place near the front of the line. They also have the data based upon start times and total swim times to know exactly who the offenders are. They could send them a warning letter or inform them that if they start in the wrong wave again it will be a DQ. As a person with a swim background I take offense to what these people are doing.

Maybe just add the delta from your seed time to actual time as penalty

Let's say you enter in the sub 27 min wave and you swim 35, that is 8 min. That 8 minutes gets converted to 43 minutes in the results for bullshitting your expected time. Maybe divide by 2 for a 4 min penalty in case you got your goggles knocked off or had a cramp, but you get the picture

Problem should resolve itself quickly

Haha... I don't think you need to go that far. There's a lot of legit reasons why someone won't swim as fast as they might reasonably expect to. No need to make their day even worse. If there are swim caps associated with start corrals based on past results, I think the vast majority of people would get in the correct corral, largely solving the problem.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Did that race once. I guess you swim to island and then line up for 30 minutes maybe if you are in one of later waves.

I guess one could also do a swim to Australian exit and walk over timing matt and start race if cable in water doesn't work.

I'd better shut up or someone will put me to work.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

I think any swim with a current - so basically any river swim - has no swim warm up. Augusta, Alcatraz, NYC... all currents and no swim warm up, to name a few. I'm not sure how you'd do those with a swim warm up either. All things equal, I'd prefer a swim warm up. But not a problem for me if not available. I do a lot of other warming up prior, bands, dynamic stretching, etc. And I often start a bit easier at the beginning until I feel I'm ready to push. If it's a beach swim, I'm not sprinting in and spiking my heart rate, so start a bit slower buy safer and can often catch up as I get into the flow. My two cents...

Not sure if this has been mentioned before here in this thread....

I did IM St. George in 2012, when the shit-storm wind hit just after swim start. I recall that there was an unconscious unresponsive swimmer who was plucked out by a ski boat, and brought back to shore and ultimately (last I recall hearing after the race) was revived. I fully suspect that this life threatening incident was due to the crazy wind and waves. But, also that water at Sand Hollow is very cold and that may have played a factor as well.

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Team Zoot-Texas, and Pickle Juice

I was there in 2012 as well, when the first waves hit us I thought who is the a hole out in his boat making the rollers. Then looking up to the North and seeing that massive dust cloud coming I knew we were in for one crappy swim. I have boated many times on that lake and have never been in waves as big as they were that day. Looking back now I can smile about it as the turn buoys were blowing away and people were swimming all over the place. Scary for a moment, but wow that was an experience.

The identity of the man who died in the swim was announced locally today. He was from Boise, his name was Gary Martinez. He was a self-employed business consultant, father of 3 little kids. He was relatively new to the sport, this was his second 70.3. He was 51.


He had been swimming in the pond here to acclimate to the cold water he would face in St. George, which is common practice for most of us doing early season racing in cold water (StG, Wildflower). He was also riding "dump loops" aka 18 mile loops through the foothills with like 1800ft of climbing per loop to prepare for the hills in St.G. (I can tell you I did the same when prepping for Vegas 70.3 worlds and Wildflower, IMC, LP, CDA. It's a tough loop.)

He had a massive heart attack half way through the swim. Out of respect, please don't speculate on further. As a USAT ref, I had a fatality in the swim at a local Olympic a few years ago. 40 year old, fit, doctor, experienced. It just happens.

I did not know him personally, as I retired from racing in 2017, which seems about the time he began, but I do know the two coaches he worked with and they are accomplished and fantastic people.

A gofund me has been set up:

https://www.gofundme.com/f/gary-martinez-family-legacy-fund?utm_campaign=p_cp+share-sheet&utm_medium=copy_link_all&utm_source=customer

Ugh... This is terrible. I feel so bad for his family. Especially tragic with leaving behind such a young family. Breaks my heart.

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http://dontletitdefeatyou.blogspot.com

My thoughts also go out to his family. 51 is very young...I'm turning 48 this year myself, so that's pretty close to the mark.Definitely, gives me pause to think about my training, and my priorities.

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- John
"Have courage, and be kind."

My heart goes out to his family.

This was a tough race emotionally. I was in one of the slowest swim waves, and even before we entered the water a gentleman had collapsed at the top of the ramp. Medics were attending to him and he was conscious thankfully. Then the man who went down at roughly the 25-mile mark on the ride. I passed him as they administered the electric shock to his heart. It sounds like he pulled through from the various social media pages. And then this tragic death. At 31 or 41 I wouldn’t have given these events a second thought, but at 51 it’s a different matter. I love this sport and want to keep doing it as long as I physically can, but last weekend’s race is going to take some time to process emotionally.

Bumping this for the GoFundMe

Was in shop yesterday, and found out this was part of my community.

That really sucks especially someone who picked up the sport (and it sounds like he has been at it for a few years before all the lockdowns so its not like he had zero experience) and it is great that he got to swim in the local venue in Boise before the race.

"Let’s examine what happens when you jump into a cold lake. Most swims are in bodies of water that are at least 10 degrees colder than body temperature. Cold water immersion leads to a phenomenon known as the Mammalian Diving Reflex. This reflex decreases breathing and slows the need for oxygen and is life saving for non-swimmers and children who fall into water . The more dangerous response is the Cold Shock Reflex. This reflex will cause you to take a deep breath, followed by uncontrolled hyperventilation. A triathlete who jumps into cold water, or at least puts their face in cold water, will have a temporary breath-holding reflex. If this same triathlete starts swimming quickly, they would be out of breath before even starting. Imagine running down the block while holding your breath; you would feel out of breath very quickly. Hyperventilation will happen immediately following and is one of the components of feeling panicky. A rapid rise in heart rate will also accompany the Cold Shock Reflex and can also lead to a feeling of panic. A tight wetsuit can make breathing difficult as well. It is these heart and lung changes, not panic, that are responsible for many open water deaths."

"Hyperventilation can have a negative impact on the lungs. It is not uncommon for hyperventilation to have an effect on the airways and lead to coughing or even spasm of the vocal cords. This makes it harder to breathe and leads to increased hyperventilation. Which can in turn lead to increased anxiety. Anxiety worsens the cold shock response. With repeated cold water immersions (4 days apart), the amount of hyperventilation is shorter and not as much. Less frequent immersions diminish the length but not the magnitude of the response. One way to reproduce this habituation to the cold shock reflex is taking repeated cold showers at 50 degrees Fahrenheit for 3 minutes. 3 minute showers at 50 degrees may save your life Finally, how can we screen for the ill-effects of the cold shock reflex? One way is to perform maximum hyperventilation while monitoring lung changes. This is a regular component of the cardiopulmonary exercise testing. If changes in measured lung volumes or coughing is present, perhaps these changes should be treated. Standard cardiac stress tests will probably not be useful for screening for the cold shock reflex. If we are to prevent triathlon swim death, other tests and decreasing the response to cold water are essential."

-Dr. Michael Ross R.I.P.

https://rothmanortho.com/...ng-triathlon-death19

It seems like allowing athletes into the water to acclimate could save lives.

I understand your and other's concerns, but let me present a different side. I lost a brother to a heart attack 6 months after my dad died of one. He was 43. Now approaching 70 and 41 years in triathlon, my 2 younger brothers 3 and 4 years younger than me, have numerous health issues. I'm the only one who has maintained a fitness regime and have raced long distance for decades. I am of the very strong opinion that this sport and movement enhances our lifetime. I had a customer buying running shoes yesterday who still ran at 82.

My heart aches for this athlete and his family, but perhaps he was happy with his life choices. Yes, we need to be very vigilant and monitor our bodies and I think the actual medical post just above this is awesome.

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Kiwami Racing Team

A couple of questions (apologies if I missed this from your explanation). Not poking or being obtuse - serious Qs...

- is there a direct relationship between the cold water shock (>> hyperventilating) and a heart attack / cardiac arrest ? (Rather than straight drowning as is what usually happens to people who dive into cold deep water on a hot day and involuntarily suck in water).

- if there is a direct relationship, does taking the 3 min 50F showers increase the risk of having a heart attack / cardiac arrest at home instead? I.e. transferring the problem from race day to home (ok granted there's maybe better chance of survival at home than in deep cold water at a race - though maybe not if doing the shower when alone in the house)

Bringing back the conversation about swim warm-ups... Gulf Coast 70.3 does not have a swim warm up this year. There is an unlimited sea with no constraints, so I thought warm-up would be a no-brainer. But, I kind of see why. I still think they could have solved for it.

They want all the racers standing by their bikes in the transition area, and they plan to stage everyone into swim start based on predicted swim times. So, the nut is they want everyone contained for easier logistics. Seems like they could have accomplished an orderly swim staging without eliminating warm-up.

I cannot wait for all the Covid silliness to be over. (This is silly... it is outdoor and folks are required to be masked.)