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Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record
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Subject says it all.

Mentions it in his most recent video. Should be a fun goal for him. I know nothing about hour records so does he have a shot?


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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [FuzzyRunner] [ In reply to ]
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He's not the best at turning and the hour record has a lot of turning.
I'd venture to say he's never ridden a fixed gear, but I could be wrong.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [oprfcc] [ In reply to ]
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The fixed gears on a track is what makes me dont completely understand cycling. Why must it be foxed gears. I Can maybe understand it for points races and such, but for the hour Record?
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [FuzzyRunner] [ In reply to ]
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I looked up some records, the Canadian record is 48.5 km. Merckx rode when 51.xx km in 1972 in Mexico City. Current record is 55.08 km, with Boardman going 56.xx km with the superman position.

No clue if this is real or how fast he will go, predictions?
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [oprfcc] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry but I know nothing about the regulations for the hour attempt. Are you saying that in order for it to be official it must be done on a fixed gear bike or is it just the most optimal?
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [JeffJ] [ In reply to ]
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JeffJ wrote:
I looked up some records, the Canadian record is 48.5 km. Merckx rode when 51.xx km in 1972 in Mexico City. Current record is 55.08 km, with Boardman going 56.xx km with the superman position.

No clue if this is real or how fast he will go, predictions?


From what I recall, MTM got the second longest run when he Attempted, But didnt push out huge watts (relatively speaking), But was very aero, so it should be possible
Last edited by: brasch: Jul 27, 20 17:43
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [brasch] [ In reply to ]
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I think it's doable for him....that dude is a machine!
Crazy and talented machine! LOL
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [brasch] [ In reply to ]
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UCI rules don't have to make sense. They are just the rules.
All track races are on a fixed gear. I have no clue if it's fastest, but I'm certain it is the rules.

There are fit regulations as well. Some peoples optimal TT position is within the UCI guidelines, for others it is not optimal. Kind of sucks. Many riders are not as fast because of UCI rules on how they can position a standard TT bike.

He'll need a Fixie and UCI legal position.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [oprfcc] [ In reply to ]
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That would be amazing. Is the current holder an exolympian?

speedmax with double discs?

If lionel falls in love with the velodrome, which event could he best qualify for the next olympics?
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [oprfcc] [ In reply to ]
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There's really not much turning in a velodrome because the track turns you. It's pretty much riding in a straight line.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [brasch] [ In reply to ]
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brasch wrote:
JeffJ wrote:
I looked up some records, the Canadian record is 48.5 km. Merckx rode when 51.xx km in 1972 in Mexico City. Current record is 55.08 km, with Boardman going 56.xx km with the superman position.

No clue if this is real or how fast he will go, predictions?


From what I recall, MTM got the second longest run when he Attempted, But didnt push out huge watts (relatively speaking), But was very aero, so it should be possible


I find it surprising that Tuft does not have the Canadian record, I wonder if he ever attempted it? He was a machine.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [JeffJ] [ In reply to ]
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JeffJ wrote:
I looked up some records, the Canadian record is 48.5 km. Merckx rode when 51.xx km in 1972 in Mexico City. Current record is 55.08 km, with Boardman going 56.xx km with the superman position.

No clue if this is real or how fast he will go, predictions?

If the record is 48.5 km that should not be too hard for him if he uses a good velodrome. Kevin Metcalfe did >49 in the 55-59 age group. Takes about 40% more watts to go 55 vs 48.5.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
JeffJ wrote:
I looked up some records, the Canadian record is 48.5 km. Merckx rode when 51.xx km in 1972 in Mexico City. Current record is 55.08 km, with Boardman going 56.xx km with the superman position.

No clue if this is real or how fast he will go, predictions?


If the record is 48.5 km that should not be too hard for him if he uses a good velodrome. Kevin Metcalfe did >49 in the 55-59 age group. Takes about 40% more watts to go 55 vs 48.5.

Ollie from GCN did 47.593 at sea level on a 300W FTP (video below). 48.5k is an easy mark for someone of LS's ability. Pretty much any Canadian Conti Pro could break the record easily.
https://www.youtube.com/...amp;index=2&t=0s

ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Titanflexr] [ In reply to ]
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Who would coach him in the details of this mission? Dave? Just curious or would Canyon send in a team?
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [FuzzyRunner] [ In reply to ]
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Looking forward to it.

Played smart, he should crush it. I've seen his kona leadups though
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [FuzzyRunner] [ In reply to ]
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FuzzyRunner wrote:
Sorry but I know nothing about the regulations for the hour attempt. Are you saying that in order for it to be official it must be done on a fixed gear bike or is it just the most optimal?

Probably both. Aero testing is the only time they let anybody on the track with brakes or a derailleur and then you are renting it out for solo use. Once you are up to speed you wouldn’t want to be carrying around any extra garbage to create drag anyway.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [lacticturkey] [ In reply to ]
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I’m not a huge Brad Wiggins fan, but he is a multiple Olympic gold medallist, and a Tour Champ.

Along with being Hour Record holder and well, a bit of a goose.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [altayloraus] [ In reply to ]
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altayloraus wrote:
I’m not a huge Brad Wiggins fan, but he is a multiple Olympic gold medallist, and a Tour Champ.

Along with being Hour Record holder and well, a bit of a goose.

However, he didn't set the record at altitude, so has left it easier that it could have been to break (not that I'm suggesting Lionel is the person to do it).
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Bad Ash] [ In reply to ]
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Bad Ash wrote:
altayloraus wrote:
I’m not a huge Brad Wiggins fan, but he is a multiple Olympic gold medallist, and a Tour Champ.

Along with being Hour Record holder and well, a bit of a goose.


However, he didn't set the record at altitude, so has left it easier that it could have been to break (not that I'm suggesting Lionel is the person to do it).

Wiggins's record was broken by a fair distance by Victor Campenaerts last year at altitude.

LS might well have plenty of raw power to do well on Zwift, but his aerodynamics need a lot of work in order to go fast on the track. Plus don't underestimate the skill needed for over 200 continual laps of a 250m loop at full gas.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [The Red Baron] [ In reply to ]
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So, is he theoretically capable? Yes, but...

A few thoughts...
1) you need to be able to ride the black line, at FTP, for an hour. Can he do it? Maybe. FTP for an hour? I haven't a shadow of a doubt that he can do it, but can he do it on the black line? Without significant prior experience on the track, doubtful.
2) Can he pace it totally blind? Again, maybe. For official record attempts, you can't have a computer to assist with pacing, just a coach on the boards. (computer is often mounted under the saddle).
3) Does Canyon care enough about a national record to make him a one-off bike? Maybe, Covid killing racing means they probably have a bunch of time on their hands. Canyon doesn't make a pursuit frame (or any other track frame) at the moment. Dowsett had one custom made for his hour several years ago.
4) Can he do it in a UCI position? It's going to be an unfamiliar position for him. If he is going for a record with an asterisk that doesn't count, he can
5) Riding fast on the track is a totally different animal than people realize. It's more than balancing watts and aero, it's knowing when to shift the balance one way or the other during each and every section of his attempt.
6) Why? What's the upside if he does it? National records are gratifying to those that hold them, but largely ignored by the rest of the world. The WR is what matters.
7) Where? The track he chooses to do it on matters...A LOT. The national record doesn't have to be set in the country for which it's a record. If he goes to Aguascalientes, can he cope with the altitude? If he makes a sea-level attempt, does he have the watts to overcome air density?
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [oprfcc] [ In reply to ]
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Why be UCI compliant?

Rather do it a la Kipchoge for marketing purposes.

Use a bike he is comfortable with and get an "unofficial" record for his cult following.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [lacticturkey] [ In reply to ]
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lacticturkey wrote:
That would be amazing. Is the current holder an exolympian?

speedmax with double discs?

If lionel falls in love with the velodrome, which event could he best qualify for the next olympics?

It will be a double disc. Look at Dowsett's old record bike for an optimized Speed Max even though its been some time. The Canadian record is super doable for an hour, but he is an aero turd. He couldn't touch work records.

There is no Olympic event on the track for him. He has pursuit power maybe, but stick him on a team pursuit and he'd crash out his team.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [FuzzyRunner] [ In reply to ]
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*can* - probably
*will* - a lot of people look at speeds done in hour records... think "pfft what do these trackies know about riding an hour" and mistakenly think you take a good TT'er, put them on a track and they'll crush it. It's not nearly that simple.

Ed Veal holds the record, and his nickname is Ed "the real deal" Veal for a reason lol

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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And Ed has already beaten Lionel. 446W vs 419W.

If anything this will be a good reason for Lionel get his aero sorted (again).


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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [RKW] [ In reply to ]
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excellent points! like many things in cycling, its not about absolute watts.

i gave the masters hour serious thought a few years ago and did a lot of testing. its fucking hard to get the effort right, in and out of the corners there are wattage changes, holding the line gets hard, RPE lies to you, etc etc.

this will take dedication. veal's strong and very experienced on the track. that said, i don't think veal did it in optimal conditions at all, or at the best track on the best day, but he had reasons to do it there and then.
Last edited by: buzz: Jul 29, 20 8:07
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [oprfcc] [ In reply to ]
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oprfcc wrote:
He's not the best at turning and the hour record has a lot of turning.
I'd venture to say he's never ridden a fixed gear, but I could be wrong.

i don't know about the fixed gear, but i was at the L.A. velodrome with him a couple of years ago. he had no trouble riding it. i would not imagine it would take him long to get used to a fixed gear. canyon wouldn't have to make him a dedicated track frame. they would rig up a road (speedmax) frame with a fixed gear. wouldn't be hard. it would not be hard for him to adapt to a UCI legal position. if he were taller, maybe, but at his height it would not be hard. i would imagine he'd do this at aguascalientes. the biggest problem would be to get around current travel moritoria and whatnot. but maybe it's easier for a canadian to go to mexico. don't know.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not saying you're wrong, some people are naturally good at riding the black.
But for the majority, riding a tight black line is a lot different at 30-40-50 minutes than it is for a few minutes testing.

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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Morelock wrote:
his nickname is Ed "The Real Deal" Veal for a reason lol

He didn't like Ed "Try The" Veal?

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [triordie1994] [ In reply to ]
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triordie1994 wrote:
Why be UCI compliant?

Rather do it a la Kipchoge for marketing purposes.

Use a bike he is comfortable with and get an "unofficial" record for his cult following.

This
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [RandMart] [ In reply to ]
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RandMart wrote:
Morelock wrote:
his nickname is Ed "The Real Deal" Veal for a reason lol


He didn't like Ed "Try The" Veal?

hahaha

too tender of a nickname

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [The Red Baron] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed. Random thoughts:

1)Veals beat Sanders on a "Zwift" style of effort. Sanders has a bit more power these days?, if he can dial in his position on the bike, he should have no issues taking the record from Veals.

2) I disagree that any conti pro can take Veal's record just based on Zwift's wattage. It is not easy to ride 60 minutes on a track in an UCI legal aero position otherwise any up and coming pro would have claimed it, as it is a good title to have at least temporarily in your resume. Images of Jack Bobridge's failed attempt come to mind, and the guy was a former pursuit world champion.

3) My estimate is a 50-51 kph performance, this is good for Canada, as it will set the benchmark above the 50 kph mark.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]
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It wouldn't even be an unofficial record. It would just be something he did on a bike.
He might as well ride the Salt Flats for an hour on a recumbent at that point.

Even if he follows all the UCI rules and hit's the mark, it will be unofficial for a world record attempt. He's not in the biological passport program. I don't know if that is the rule for the Canadian mark.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [oprfcc] [ In reply to ]
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oprfcc wrote:
It wouldn't even be an unofficial record. It would just be something he did on a bike.
He might as well ride the Salt Flats for an hour on a recumbent at that point.

Even if he follows all the UCI rules and hit's the mark, it will be unofficial for a world record attempt. He's not in the biological passport program. I don't know if that is the rule for the Canadian mark.

That.

Would it be cool to see him try? Yes. Is he physically capable? Yes. Will he do it? Doubtful. There just isn't enough upside for him.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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At about the 6 minute mark he mentions that he'll be doing the attempt on the same track where the current record was set.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [brasch] [ In reply to ]
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brasch wrote:
The fixed gears on a track is what makes me dont completely understand cycling. Why must it be foxed gears. I Can maybe understand it for points races and such, but for the hour Record?

Because brakes are very dangerous in track cycling. You'll bring down everyone with a little tap. Also, for wooden tracks, negative traction is bad news especially on banked turns.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [FuzzyRunner] [ In reply to ]
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FuzzyRunner wrote:
At about the 6 minute mark he mentions that he'll be doing the attempt on the same track where the current record was set.

Yes he said Milton, same place Ed did it. He's not going for a world record and I don't even think he's trying to get in the books as an "official" Canadian record. It's a new challenge for him to keep things fresh in the absence of racing. He's friends with Ed, respects him a lot, and just like in triathlon, he wants to measure himself against stronger athletes.

Any talk of him making a run at the world record or flying down to Aguascslientes is ridiculous.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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Morelock wrote:
RandMart wrote:
Morelock wrote:
his nickname is Ed "The Real Deal" Veal for a reason lol


He didn't like Ed "Try The" Veal?


hahaha

too tender of a nickname

He's probably riding an Italian bike - a Scallopini, or a Saltimbocca, perhaps?

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]
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NordicSkier wrote:
brasch wrote:
The fixed gears on a track is what makes me dont completely understand cycling. Why must it be foxed gears. I Can maybe understand it for points races and such, but for the hour Record?


Because brakes are very dangerous in track cycling. You'll bring down everyone with a little tap. Also, for wooden tracks, negative traction is bad news especially on banked turns.

in addition... once you stop pedaling you are done in this type effort. its just like zwift, need to pedal all the time even in a drafting race
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:
NordicSkier wrote:
brasch wrote:
The fixed gears on a track is what makes me dont completely understand cycling. Why must it be foxed gears. I Can maybe understand it for points races and such, but for the hour Record?


Because brakes are very dangerous in track cycling. You'll bring down everyone with a little tap. Also, for wooden tracks, negative traction is bad news especially on banked turns.

in addition... once you stop pedaling you are done in this type effort. its just like zwift, need to pedal all the time even in a drafting race

Freewheeling and the lack of breaking, cool with me. But there still might be a need to change gears?
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [brasch] [ In reply to ]
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No. That's the point. You pick *A* gear. Think of it like a Time Trial with no wind and no turnaround. Ceteris paribus, you'd do the entire thing in a single gear.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [brasch] [ In reply to ]
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brasch wrote:
synthetic wrote:
NordicSkier wrote:
brasch wrote:
The fixed gears on a track is what makes me dont completely understand cycling. Why must it be foxed gears. I Can maybe understand it for points races and such, but for the hour Record?


Because brakes are very dangerous in track cycling. You'll bring down everyone with a little tap. Also, for wooden tracks, negative traction is bad news especially on banked turns.


in addition... once you stop pedaling you are done in this type effort. its just like zwift, need to pedal all the time even in a drafting race


Freewheeling and the lack of breaking, cool with me. But there still might be a need to change gears?

fiesta island record here in san diego, popular outdoor TT spot for 20,40k and more , the record was set on single speed bike
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:

fiesta island record here in san diego, popular outdoor TT spot for 20,40k and more , the record was set on single speed bike

Come to think of it, John Frey's 40k US Record was set on a fixed gear.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [RKW] [ In reply to ]
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Single speed drivetrains are lower friction than derailleur setups (and more aero, and lighter). If the course is pancake flat it's the way to go.

ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
And Ed has already beaten Lionel. 446W vs 419W.

If anything this will be a good reason for Lionel get his aero sorted (again).


Are you suggesting Ed Veal did 446w for 1 hour???
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [TheWhiteCarrot] [ In reply to ]
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TheWhiteCarrot wrote:
rruff wrote:
And Ed has already beaten Lionel. 446W vs 419W.

If anything this will be a good reason for Lionel get his aero sorted (again).



Are you suggesting Ed Veal did 446w for 1 hour???

"Best TT specialist in Canada".!? How little he knows, Svein Tuft could take 5 minutes out of Ed in a 40k. Ed is a very quality rider but he's a better crit racer than TT guy. Ed broke new ground when he set this but Im sure he would tell you it could be beaten. I remember him telling me how hard it was on the track with limited prep holding the position and constant cadence (he's very experienced in track technique)-the wattage was like 350 if I remember right. If Lionel invests in some trial runs and really trains in the position at a constant high cadence he could crush it. If he just shows up off the wahoo he might not even make it an hour.

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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Jordano] [ In reply to ]
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Jordano wrote:
TheWhiteCarrot wrote:
rruff wrote:
And Ed has already beaten Lionel. 446W vs 419W.

If anything this will be a good reason for Lionel get his aero sorted (again).



Are you suggesting Ed Veal did 446w for 1 hour???


"Best TT specialist in Canada".!? How little he knows, Svein Tuft could take 5 minutes out of Ed in a 40k. Ed is a very quality rider but he's a better crit racer than TT guy. Ed broke new ground when he set this but Im sure he would tell you it could be beaten. I remember him telling me how hard it was on the track with limited prep holding the position and constant cadence (he's very experienced in track technique)-the wattage was like 350 if I remember right. If Lionel invests in some trial runs and really trains in the position at a constant high cadence he could crush it. If he just shows up off the wahoo he might not even make it an hour.


This is what I’m getting at. Jordan hit this one spot on. Lots of people on here don’t know what they don’t know.
Last edited by: TheWhiteCarrot: Jul 28, 20 18:59
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Jordano] [ In reply to ]
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Ed is a machine and huge, huge respect for him, but completely with you on this. In the Ontario provincial scene it would be quite an upset if he were to win the road TT championship, never mind Nationals.

As for Lionel, dude just loves to compete and look for a challenge, and with no races why the hell not jump on the boards and see what you can do. Can he do it? No idea but wouldn’t rule him out and will be fun to watch.

Jordano wrote:
TheWhiteCarrot wrote:
rruff wrote:
And Ed has already beaten Lionel. 446W vs 419W.

If anything this will be a good reason for Lionel get his aero sorted (again).



Are you suggesting Ed Veal did 446w for 1 hour???

"Best TT specialist in Canada".!? How little he knows, Svein Tuft could take 5 minutes out of Ed in a 40k. Ed is a very quality rider but he's a better crit racer than TT guy. Ed broke new ground when he set this but Im sure he would tell you it could be beaten. I remember him telling me how hard it was on the track with limited prep holding the position and constant cadence (he's very experienced in track technique)-the wattage was like 350 if I remember right. If Lionel invests in some trial runs and really trains in the position at a constant high cadence he could crush it. If he just shows up off the wahoo he might not even make it an hour.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:
brasch wrote:
synthetic wrote:
NordicSkier wrote:
brasch wrote:
The fixed gears on a track is what makes me dont completely understand cycling. Why must it be foxed gears. I Can maybe understand it for points races and such, but for the hour Record?


Because brakes are very dangerous in track cycling. You'll bring down everyone with a little tap. Also, for wooden tracks, negative traction is bad news especially on banked turns.


in addition... once you stop pedaling you are done in this type effort. its just like zwift, need to pedal all the time even in a drafting race


Freewheeling and the lack of breaking, cool with me. But there still might be a need to change gears?


fiesta island record here in san diego, popular outdoor TT spot for 20,40k and more , the record was set on single speed bike

It's old-school, but pretty sure Obree set some Scottish and British records on a fixed gear setup. I know reading his book that he mentioned racing outdoors on a fixie quite a few times. I am horrified enough as a hobbyist TT guy bombing down a hill in the skis at 45mph knowing I do have brakes. Much less riding a freaking fixie knowing I don't have brakes! Yikes.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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fwiw outdoors almost all "fixie" racers have the required two brakes (one on the front and your legs ;) )

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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Morelock wrote:
fwiw outdoors almost all "fixie" racers have the required two brakes (one on the front and your legs ;) )

Still scary as hell though :D I ride fixed gear TTs a bit and have most of my PBs set on fixed (UK races allow it, but it's UCI illegal). You have to gear for the downhill sections as otherwise you get to the bottom of hills completely cooked, but you can always slog it uphill in whatever gear you've got without really losing time.

AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Xavier] [ In reply to ]
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Xavier wrote:
Morelock wrote:
fwiw outdoors almost all "fixie" racers have the required two brakes (one on the front and your legs ;) )


Still scary as hell though :D I ride fixed gear TTs a bit and have most of my PBs set on fixed (UK races allow it, but it's UCI illegal). You have to gear for the downhill sections as otherwise you get to the bottom of hills completely cooked, but you can always slog it uphill in whatever gear you've got without really losing time.

As long as you only have one gear... it's always the right gear.

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [FuzzyRunner] [ In reply to ]
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It's just a guess until he tries, and the track can account for 2-3k (Indoor, outdoor, pressure, temp) but I think with 4-6 weeks prep he likely could go about 50k in Canada. Maybe another 1500 meters with many months, and more invested, just a guess though due to so many variables.

Dan mentioned rigging the road machine (Speedmax?) up for fixed gear, I think it has vertical dropouts so to do this he'd have to just get lucky with the gear ratio and chain length. A chain tensioner in an HR is a bad idea IMHO. Maybe they'll do what they did with Jens on his road SpeedConcept a few years ago by just cutting out the dropouts, and having a carbon frame builder put some horizontal dropouts on the road tt bike, that's not that hard to do these days with all the carbon fabrication options that are around.

Most hour records end up averaging 100-105 cadence, I'd guess he'd go a lot lower, I think both of Obree's records were significantly lower. I haven't studied his power profile, but I'm guessing he'd shoot for around 90 rpm based on watching him race tris, which would probably be faster than his normal high-power FTP cadence during intervals. Just something to look at, and another reason why having horizontal dropouts would be important so he could play with a single tooth on the front chainring until he has the cadence dialed in.

Reach-wise he's not so tall, so that shouldn't be an issue WITH the seat in a UCI legal position. I see this likely being the biggest challenge, people who learned to ride in a "tri position" often have big trouble sliding their seat 4-7cm back and producing power there while staying aero. It looks to me like he sits forward, and even was quite forward in his Mt. Lemon KOM attempt on his road bike sitting up higher. People who learned to ride bikes with a 73 degree angle road bike, often have less trouble producing power in a rearward position. Ironically, couldn't that hurdle be solely attributable to Dan with his advent of steep aero bikes?

This guy is a great character, I'm looking forward to him going for it and to follow along. I'm hoping he does a video or two showing his preparations and challenges he encounters along the way. With no triathlon racing on the 2020 horizon, and a record that is well within reach, I think he has more reasons to go for it than not to.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [LewisElliot] [ In reply to ]
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I also don't think dual discs would be a forgone conclusion. Obree broke the record on dual Specialized Tri-spokes (the mold became the HED 3), Boardman broke the record his first time on dual Corima 4-spokes, which I think were aerodynamically significantly slower than the Specialized 3-spokes. I have a set right here, and they look slower!

Boardman did the 56k Superman record on a Mavic io 5-spoke front, and that was over 56k an hour.

I've ridden dual discs on the track and on the road, and even on the track a front disc has a very odd feeling that takes some getting used to. I think it's like a sail and even the broad turns on a 250 meter track, you have to push a little to get it to change direction. It was always surprising to me that even indoors on a velodrome a front disc tracks significantly differently from a 90mm front wheel. I'd recommend he just go with a super-aero front wheel, he'll probably save more in not worrying about it and a more efficient line, than he would by the maybe 2-3 watts saved. Clinchers would be my option too, they just roll faster and you could run much lower pressure. (120 probably, instead of 200psi)
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [LewisElliot] [ In reply to ]
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I need to just go ahead and buy a hub kit. My Felt DA has horizontal dropouts with that little set screw in it. Hmmmm.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [LewisElliot] [ In reply to ]
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Somewhere like Milton you definitely want tubulars and high pressure.

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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I spent a week once in Manchester with Fitwerx Dean talking aero and racing track, he was running a Zipp disc/808 set up on the track with supersonic clinchers/latex at 120 psi. He had figured the dual Mavic Comete set-up with 200 psi latex tubs would give him ~2 seconds in a 3k pursuit putting him under the world record. A lot of this was based on them being "the standard" for all records, Wiggins hour, pretty much what everyone uses, not any actual data.

He finally talked his wife into letting him snag a set, got them set up, and went to work testing them comprehensively like everything else he's done for 15 years. It turns out they were the same or slightly slower than his Zipps, I think he covers this in his blog on their website. Mind you, this is on a perfectly smooth wooden track where world records are set. It goes to show you just never know, but the conclusion I drew was that the Zipp disc/808 set up is VERY fast with good tires. Way closer than either of us thought!
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [LewisElliot] [ In reply to ]
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LewisElliot wrote:
I also don't think dual discs would be a forgone conclusion. Obree broke the record on dual Specialized Tri-spokes (the mold became the HED 3), Boardman broke the record his first time on dual Corima 4-spokes, which I think were aerodynamically significantly slower than the Specialized 3-spokes. I have a set right here, and they look slower!

Boardman did the 56k Superman record on a Mavic io 5-spoke front, and that was over 56k an hour.

I've ridden dual discs on the track and on the road, and even on the track a front disc has a very odd feeling that takes some getting used to. I think it's like a sail and even the broad turns on a 250 meter track, you have to push a little to get it to change direction. It was always surprising to me that even indoors on a velodrome a front disc tracks significantly differently from a 90mm front wheel. I'd recommend he just go with a super-aero front wheel, he'll probably save more in not worrying about it and a more efficient line, than he would by the maybe 2-3 watts saved. Clinchers would be my option too, they just roll faster and you could run much lower pressure. (120 probably, instead of 200psi)

Wouldnt higher pressure and something like 19mm tires be better on a track?
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [brasch] [ In reply to ]
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Compared to the fastest modern clinchers with latex it's a watt or two at most from the testing I've seen. One argument could be a tubular is better to ride out with a flat, but I can't imagine a 150 gram tubular at 200psi would be much better on a wheel than a lightweight clincher, and that's fairly unlikely to happen on a velodrome. Data I've seen and my experience, would be that he'd be much better off running Zipp wheels disc/808 with the fastest tires and latex at 120psi. I think the give and higher volume tire at 120 psi should help overall fatigue too, rather than riding a tire that has zero give, over hundreds of turns. He should also hire/consult with Dean at Fitwerx. All IMHO of course...
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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Morelock wrote:
Xavier wrote:
Morelock wrote:
fwiw outdoors almost all "fixie" racers have the required two brakes (one on the front and your legs ;) )


Still scary as hell though :D I ride fixed gear TTs a bit and have most of my PBs set on fixed (UK races allow it, but it's UCI illegal). You have to gear for the downhill sections as otherwise you get to the bottom of hills completely cooked, but you can always slog it uphill in whatever gear you've got without really losing time.


As long as you only have one gear... it's always the right gear.

:D

AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [thatzone] [ In reply to ]
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thatzone wrote:
Who would coach him in the details of this mission? Dave? Just curious or would Canyon send in a team?

Sanders is still listed as his athlete. Anyone know if Lionel is still working with his coach for all his covid craziness? Between zwifting, the hour record and trying to PB in a 5km, I wonder how much his coach is onboard for.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [FuzzyRunner] [ In reply to ]
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First video up. Alex Dowsett offered help in the comments section. Hopefully Lionel takes him up on that.


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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [The Guardian] [ In reply to ]
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On board for all of it. We talk, he listens, we debate, we plan accordingly and we focus on "low hanging fruit" and keeping it enjoyable for Lionel without getting carried away with too much marginal gain stuff (and thereby losing sight of just training consistently and sensibly).

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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Nicely made video, they kept it exciting...Thought he was going to do it on 90 psi gatorskins and deep rims until the last second when he finally mentions double discs!

I was almost at the point of recommending this second hsnd bike on ebay...
https://m.ebay.nl/...wBanner=1&_rdt=1

the guy is an powerhouse would be cool if he gets it!
Last edited by: lacticturkey: Oct 10, 20 6:01
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [lacticturkey] [ In reply to ]
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I suggested gatorskins in case of splinters but he fought me on my wisdom......

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [FuzzyRunner] [ In reply to ]
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When is it happening and where ?
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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David - Lionel's bike position in races last year - Los Cabos and Challenge Daytona - looked really good and comfortable. This is completely different - is it in order to meet UCI regs? If you can share...

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [sward] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think he has announced when but maybe David can shed a little light on that. I think they have mentioned where but I honestly don't remember. I know it's in Canada.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [dfru] [ In reply to ]
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It is a mixture of the size of the "track converted" Canyon Speedmax Lionel explains history of and UCI regulations.

As for where, when. Milton Velodrome where he is testing is the plan and at some point in next few weeks, scheduling dependent.

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [lacticturkey] [ In reply to ]
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Free Shipping!
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [FuzzyRunner] [ In reply to ]
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I am huge Lionel fan, love his videos and behind the scenes look at the build up, but good god it’s painful sometimes watching him experiment with some of this stuff. People have been doing the science behind hour records for a long time, sooo many knowledgeable people out there and just hope he’s talking to some of them and listening to advice.

If track time is limited, do you really need to waste time testing if the red line is slower than the black? It’s a bigger circumference, Longer distance, of course it’s slower! Hell, just pull up video of Wiggins, he did a pretty good job of it. Testing whether head up or turtling is faster? Argh.

Still waiting to get the right gear for training? Lionel, there is a huge track community around here. Quick post on the local track Facebook group and 7,8 people would be rushing down the to track to hook you up and help you out! I bet Veal would be one of the first.

We’re all cheering you on, just please don’t try to reinvent this. Sooo many people that know all the science inside and out would love to help, use it!
Last edited by: Dufflite: Oct 10, 20 12:07
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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I was hoping that was the venue as I live in Milton and I would love to watch this attempt .
Please could you post when you know the date and time .
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Dufflite] [ In reply to ]
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Dufflite wrote:
I am huge Lionel fan, love his videos and behind the scenes look at the build up, but good god it’s painful sometimes watching him experiment with some of this stuff. People have been doing the science behind hour records for a long time, sooo many knowledgeable people out there and just hope he’s talking to some of them and listening to advice.

If track time is limited, do you really need to waste time testing if the red line is slower than the black? It’s a bigger circumference, Longer distance, of course it’s slower! Hell, just pull up video of Wiggins, he did a pretty good job of it. Testing whether head up or turtling is faster? Argh.

Still waiting to get the right gear for training? Lionel, there is a huge track community around here. Quick post on the local track Facebook group and 7,8 people would be rushing down the to track to hook you up and help you out! I bet Veal would be one of the first.

We’re all cheering you on, just please don’t try to reinvent this. Sooo many people that know all the science inside and out would love to help, use it!

Isn’t this consistent with how he approaches everything?
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Dufflite] [ In reply to ]
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You’re right. But, He wanted to ensure he does the right things but knowing exactly what doing the wrong things will cost him. I actually found that to be sound reasoning and perfectly logical experiment that makes a lot of sense.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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tilburs wrote:
I suggested gatorskins in case of splinters but he fought me on my wisdom......



The target is 49.431...anything less and Eddy say's its unacceptable






Chris Boardman says 49.431 is not fast enough...its 49.441




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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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DTD can you comment on why he is training to break the hour record on the bike and simultaneously training to break his 5k PR? It seems they would cannibalize each other if truly going all out for both. Also, how’s his swim going these days, he hasn’t mentioned it in a while. If his swim is decent he should be in good shape for Daytona.

Let food be thy medicine...
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [JackStraw13] [ In reply to ]
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JackStraw13 wrote:
DTD can you comment on why he is training to break the hour record on the bike and simultaneously training to break his 5k PR? It seems they would cannibalize each other if truly going all out for both. Also, how’s his swim going these days, he hasn’t mentioned it in a while. If his swim is decent he should be in good shape for Daytona.

I was also surprised that he is using this non racing period trying to break his 5km run PB. That's a kind of useless exercise from a pro triathlon competitiveness angle in the sense that a few seconds on the 5km changes nothing in his half and full IM races, because he pretty well never accesses that level of speed. It seems he would be much better off getting his 100m, 200m and 1500m speed down. His 100m and 200m are key to not getting dropped at the start line in Kona and his 1500m is key to hanging onto a pack that is slightly stronger than him. This would be a useful exercise and if we're talking complimentary vs cannibalization, the swim work would more compliment a flat TT than the run work. The kick work in the water very much translates to the bike whereas running speed almost never transfers to the bike.

So like you, other than for a personal challenge I am surprised that he's not using this time to smash his 1500m swim time. Duration wise its similar to the 5km anyway for him (his 1500m is somewhat longer than his 5000m run).
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [JackStraw13] [ In reply to ]
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Because having fun and staying motivated key drivers.

He is still swimming and Daytona is the focus. Physiologically speaking getting into great 1hr bike shape and 5k speed shape aligns nicely with training demands of speed needs for Daytona.

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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tilburs wrote:
Because having fun and staying motivated key drivers.

He is still swimming and Daytona is the focus. Physiologically speaking getting into great 1hr bike shape and 5k speed shape aligns nicely with training demands of speed needs for Daytona.

OK but he's going to always suffer in Kona if he can't hang with the second swim pack and then he's playing catch up on th bike which ends up messing with psychology. So hopefully if he really wants to win it, he put's the 40-50,000m per week Andy Potts approved program :-). Winning every other race he can do with his traditional swim. But you would think he'd invest time during lockdown on his weakness that hurts him the most in Kona (plus you never know when pools will be closed back up depending on where he is staying)
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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Let me know if he needs some hour record tips ;p
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
tilburs wrote:
Because having fun and staying motivated key drivers.

He is still swimming and Daytona is the focus. Physiologically speaking getting into great 1hr bike shape and 5k speed shape aligns nicely with training demands of speed needs for Daytona.


OK but he's going to always suffer in Kona if he can't hang with the second swim pack and then he's playing catch up on th bike which ends up messing with psychology. So hopefully if he really wants to win it, he put's the 40-50,000m per week Andy Potts approved program :-). Winning every other race he can do with his traditional swim. But you would think he'd invest time during lockdown on his weakness that hurts him the most in Kona (plus you never know when pools will be closed back up depending on where he is staying)

Thank G-d his coach/advisor has you Dev! ;)
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [turdburgler] [ In reply to ]
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If nothing else, Dev is consistent.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Schrute] [ In reply to ]
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Schrute wrote:
If nothing else, Dev is consistent.

At least I am consistent with the rest of ST that he will not win Kona from the 4th group of swimmers.

But hey it sounds like his coach is saying he is focused on challenge Daytona for now not Kona 2021 so that would make sense.

I think he gains more upside breaking the Canadian hour record than winning Challenge Daytona in the rest of the sports media....so swimming hard to compliment biking hard and a bit of extra swimmer mass will help the hour record than being lighter for a 5km that would hurt the record.

But this is why we are fans. We can second guess every pro and their coaches. That's the whole point of professional sports. If fans don't have their two cents the pros are irrelevant. But hey if Challenge Daytona and 5km PB are the priority then he can knock himself out on those . At least he will race a tri which is fantastic.

oK over to the Giro and second guessing the directeurs sportives and the racers.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Any thoughts about bowling?
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
But this is why we are fans. We can second guess every pro and their coaches. That's the whole point of professional sports. If fans don't have their two cents the pros are irrelevant.

Being a fan can be more about spectating and taking in what the pros deliver. Not trying to tell MJ how to improve his 3-point shooting. Depends on the fan, I guess. But you version sounds more like a critic.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [MTM] [ In reply to ]
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MTM wrote:
Let me know if he needs some hour record tips ;p

For the win!

Let food be thy medicine...
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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Because having fun and staying motivated key drivers.

Thank you David for putting this out there and stating the obvious!


THE key take-away here for most.

In a year when for Age-Groupers and for the most part for Pros, has been a complete wipe-out, this is key! Appreciate it for what it is - a personal challenge, and a bit of thinking outside the box. More triathletes would do better, with this kind of personal challenge(s), and exploratory thinking vs, getting all caught up in the minutiae, details and data of it all!

Lionel will have a good go at this. He has the kind of fitness, power profile, and mental strength to have a good go at the Canadian Record. Upside - he'll learn a few things, and some new skills (riding a fixed gear bike on the track).

Stay tuned for more details - we'll be getting those out shortly - time, and how to watch!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Dev, you are swimming like 40km per week, why aren't you in the lead pack? :)
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [sportstats] [ In reply to ]
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sportstats wrote:
Dev, you are swimming like 40km per week, why aren't you in the lead pack? :)

Aside from a few lifelong fish, I AM leading my age group in most swims. Lionel is not leading in his group haha!
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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hey maybe it gets Sven Tuft out of retirement to do this after a triathlete surpasses all Canadians and Eddy Merckx.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Sven would kill this I am sure and it would be amazing to see him try.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [BMANX] [ In reply to ]
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haha, it was not 1 full hour, but over 28 minutes and 28 seconds Steve Baur did 51.57 kph in this ITT:

https://www.cyclingranking.com/...ance/stages/stage-21

He was only 1:31 behind Lemond and 38 second behind Fignon. OK it was downhill from Versailles to Paris, but would have loved to see what Bauer could have done over an hour if he gave it a shot. Also way back at the LA Olympics, Alex Steida did a 4:51 in the 4000m pursuit back in the time before aero bars and when Steve Hegg went 4:35 for the gold in a road position not aero. Steida's time was 49.5km from a standing start. Not crazy fast, but Steida probably could have put something down in the range of the current 48.5 Canadian record on aerobars and dual discs.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I hope Lionel's attempt pushes a few other Canadian's to give it a try.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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If you go look at the link from the 1989 TdF stage 21 ITT on the Champs, Steve Bauer beat Indurain, Chiappucci and Bjarne Riis
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
If you go look at the link from the 1989 TdF stage 21 ITT on the Champs, Steve Bauer beat Indurain, Chiappucci and Bjarne Riis

Also ahead of such noted TT specialists as Raul Alcala by 10 seconds and a whopping 26 second demolishing of Andy Hampsten. Lots of mediocre performances at the end of the tour correct? Also "only" 1:31 is 3.3 kph or something behind Lemond...

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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pretty sure pro cyclists wont mind a multisport athlete holding one of thier their national title

Lionels religoius training on the turbo trainer seems to be ideal for this kind of epic sustained focus event - would be cool to see him smash it and then the million bucks at daytona
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [lacticturkey] [ In reply to ]
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lacticturkey wrote:
pretty sure pro cyclists wont mind a multisport athlete holding one of thier their national title

Lionels religoius training on the turbo trainer seems to be ideal for this kind of epic sustained focus event - would be cool to see him smash it and then the million bucks at daytona

Several of the Canadian pros know what Lionel can do after racing him this year on Zwift.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag wrote:
lacticturkey wrote:
pretty sure pro cyclists wont mind a multisport athlete holding one of thier their national title

Lionels religoius training on the turbo trainer seems to be ideal for this kind of epic sustained focus event - would be cool to see him smash it and then the million bucks at daytona


Several of the Canadian pros know what Lionel can do after racing him this year on Zwift.

this is a very elegant and sick burn...

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.â€
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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ericMPro wrote:
marcag wrote:
lacticturkey wrote:
pretty sure pro cyclists wont mind a multisport athlete holding one of thier their national title

Lionels religoius training on the turbo trainer seems to be ideal for this kind of epic sustained focus event - would be cool to see him smash it and then the million bucks at daytona


Several of the Canadian pros know what Lionel can do after racing him this year on Zwift.


this is a very elegant and sick burn...

oops. I certainly didn't mean it that way. Can you explain ? I'm Canadian, we're not very good at burns.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [lacticturkey] [ In reply to ]
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lacticturkey wrote:
pretty sure pro cyclists wont mind a multisport athlete holding one of thier their national title

Lionels religoius training on the turbo trainer seems to be ideal for this kind of epic sustained focus event - would be cool to see him smash it and then the million bucks at daytona

I don't think Cam can go take Rohan Dennis' number at the hour haha.

But Cam's racing at the Vuelta, so is he a triathlete anymore?
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
lacticturkey wrote:

I don't think Cam can go take Rohan Dennis' number at the hour haha.

But Cam's racing at the Vuelta, so is he a triathlete anymore?

Why Dennis?
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag wrote:
ericMPro wrote:
marcag wrote:
lacticturkey wrote:
pretty sure pro cyclists wont mind a multisport athlete holding one of thier their national title

Lionels religoius training on the turbo trainer seems to be ideal for this kind of epic sustained focus event - would be cool to see him smash it and then the million bucks at daytona


Several of the Canadian pros know what Lionel can do after racing him this year on Zwift.


this is a very elegant and sick burn...

oops. I certainly didn't mean it that way. Can you explain ? I'm Canadian, we're not very good at burns.

You’re playfully razzing Lionel, as he’s able to hang with his genetic peers on Zwift, but in real life he couldn’t. You’re also subtly zinging the pro cyclists, as the only thing separating them from a mere pro triathlete is not watts or ability but time on a bike.

Well done! Just say “sworry†and we’ll say no more about it ;)

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.â€
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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ericMPro wrote:


You’re playfully razzing Lionel, as he’s able to hang with his genetic peers on Zwift, but in real life he couldn’t. You’re also subtly zinging the pro cyclists, as the only thing separating them from a mere pro triathlete is not watts or ability but time on a bike.

Well done! Just say “sworry†and we’ll say no more about it ;)


Nope. But it takes a special mind to see burns where they don't exist.

First I am a fan of Lionel's having had the opportunity to work with him a few times. He's a great guy and I think this attempt is just what we need right now.

The guy simply said he thinks Lionel will be very strong on a 1 hour effort as seen on Zwift. This rider is well aware of Lionel's capabilities as he comes from tri himself and his g/f is quite involved at the half distance and he's seen him race a few time.

He has also said he'd love to TT Lionel one day.
Last edited by: marcag: Oct 13, 20 8:47
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag wrote:
ericMPro wrote:


You’re playfully razzing Lionel, as he’s able to hang with his genetic peers on Zwift, but in real life he couldn’t. You’re also subtly zinging the pro cyclists, as the only thing separating them from a mere pro triathlete is not watts or ability but time on a bike.

Well done! Just say “sworry†and we’ll say no more about it ;)


Nope. But it takes a special mind to see burns where they don't exist.

Nope, just sarcasm.

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.â€
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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Special dude, I wish him the best. Hope he has fun at it through all the training and prep.

FWIW, I feel there should be a distinction when comparing pro triathletes and pack fodder pros instead of the GC contenders or the TT specialists. Some of even the longer ITT in stage races have some staggering power and speed data for the TT specialists and GC contenders.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [FuzzyRunner] [ In reply to ]
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Had a call earlier today with the Sports Presentation team that will be in place to cover Lionel's attempt at the Canadian One Hour Record on the track. Here are the basic details.

Date - Oct. 23.

Time - Start time will be about 12:30PM EDT

Location - Mattamy National Cycling Center, Milton, ON. Note to local folk in the Toronto area, there will be NO spectators allowed in the building due to the COVID-19 situation. Only a skeleton support crew for Lionel and the Sports Presentation team will be allowed in the building. The Live Stream will be where to watch this (see below)

Sports Presentation - We will be producing a live stream "broadcast" that will be streamed on Lionel's YouTube Page - https://www.youtube.com/...ct8TB_8l5HsQHBBr8hyQ I have been asked to Host the Commentary and I will have Expert Input from the man who currently holds the Canadian One Hour Record, and won a Bronze Medal in the Team Pursuit event at the 2015 Pan Am Games on this same track, Ed "The Read Deal" Veal! Video Technical and Production work will be by Greg McFadden who has shot video extensively for IRONMAN for many years, and working remotely, due to COVID-19 restrictions, Talbot Cox.

I'm sure there will be many questions - fire away and I will try and answer.

Looking forward to this!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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You’re playfully razzing Lionel, as he’s able to hang with his genetic peers on Zwift, but in real life he couldn’t. You’re also subtly zinging the pro cyclists, as the only thing separating them from a mere pro triathlete is not watts or ability but time on a bike.


If we learned anything this year - there is a BIG difference between Zwift Racing and real bike road racing on the road!

But - Fitness for your best Zwift racing performance, more or less is the same, and reasonably close to the fitness needed for one hour on the track.

Most of the top level Zwift races are in the 45 min to 1 hour range.

In terms of pure fitness - from what I know, and some inside info, Lionel HAS the power profile and fitness to really have a serious go at this. His limiter is going to be familiarity with riding the track, and riding a track bike and fixed gear! My understanding is the training sessions have gone well.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:

In terms of pure fitness - from what I know, and some inside info, Lionel HAS the power profile and fitness to really have a serious go at this. His limiter is going to be familiarity with riding the track, and riding a track bike and fixed gear! My understanding is the training sessions have gone well.



Any feedback on if he has the aerodynamics to do it ?
The eyeball wind tunnel (which is not very accurate) says he's not far from where he was when he was in Milton filming "chasing the Lion"


Last edited by: marcag: Oct 14, 20 16:42
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Pretty excited for this. I’m fully in the camp of appreciating this for what it is, a really cool challenge when there’s no racing to be had.

And being in Canada, I’m equally excited that this will be on YouTube and I won’t need to buy a 12 month subscription to Flo tv to see it!
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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That's great! Thanks for the information.

Do you know if Lionel has been in contact with any record holders from previous years or other people with this expertise? I know Alex Dowsett offered to chat (a comment on Lionel's youtube video) with him about the attempt but wasn't sure if anyone else offered up their expertise or if Lionel took up any offers.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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Plenty of folks chiming in about the "old chestnut" ... Lionel´s aero position. What all seem to miss is making changes can take months to adapt to with ensuing losses of power that are not outweighed by aero gains, they can also change comfort and they can change bike handling (Kienle has talked about this in his "testing mantis was fast but straighter extensions more stable" ... paraphrasing).

I´ll also share this prime example of the risk of disappearing down aero rabbit holes...

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/...-world-champs-288833

First and foremost Lionel´s track position has to be UCI legal, it is. Secondly it needs to be comfortable and stable because that allows him to put out big watts.

We know what works *for him* but we also know he doesn´t *look* like Campanearts or Wiggins or Dowsett .... nor should he, everyone´s body is different.

This is simply Lionel doing something awesome, being Lionel and having some fun but rest assured he hasn´t forgotten he is a triathlete nor forgotten there´s a big race in December!!

We have heard from a few Hour record holders and attempt'ers and I´ve certainly communicated with one of them.

Kind Regards,

David

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Dufflite] [ In reply to ]
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Dufflite wrote:
Pretty excited for this. I’m fully in the camp of appreciating this for what it is, a really cool challenge when there’s no racing to be had.

And being in Canada, I’m equally excited that this will be on YouTube and I won’t need to buy a 12 month subscription to Flo tv to see it!

+1, really looking forward to this. As always, Lionel keeping things interesting while most other pro's are not heard from.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for chiming in

Lionel did make some noise on his positioning and aero testing when he went to his new bike supplier. His social media showed some pics of the new position.

Did he have to revert some of those changes for UCI reasons ?

Are there plans to share his power file post race ?
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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The quick answer is - Yes, I am sure there were some minor modifications to be made to meet the UCI regulations.

Going back to a previous, David Tilbury-Davis post here, you really don't want to change much at this stage - at these sorts of sustained power outputs, little changes can take a while to get used to, and while there may be some "gains" here and there for aero, if you can't sustain the power - it's all a wash or worse!

Here's another complicating factor - a full disc front wheel is pretty tricky to handle. So whatever the position is - you need to have confidence in handling the front end of the bike - however you are set up!

Yes it's in the a velodrome, so wind is not a factor, but you are constantly moving the front wheel slightly off-center as you turn left*. The straightaways, where you truly have everything lined up straight are pretty short. At the speed Lionel will be moving 50 km/h roughly, it's only for a few seconds, then back into another turn.

*Knowing the track is key and how the bike will handle. You are not so much as "turning", but using the curve, and the banking and your body to get the bike going left. At these speeds, you are actually counter steering a bit to keep it all in line - using the banking and working with it.(with experience this all become subconscious) Still that front wheel is constantly coming on and off line slightly and one false move and it will catch a huge amount of air. I've seen some of the best Track Pursuit riders in the world take a riding a front disk take a tumble!!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Last edited by: Fleck: Oct 16, 20 8:32
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks

I completely agree and understand on the no making any changes.

I guess what surprised me was his position seems different than some of the stuff we've seen after his fittings in the US and his aero testing.....all of which has been a while ago. Maybe it's the same. Maybe Jim can chime in on the differences if any.

Canadian record is sub 50, correct ?

I hope this motivates some of the Canadian pro cyclists and creates some momentum around the event.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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WRT the front disc, I wonder if it would be faster from a comfort and stress standpoint to run a trispoke or deep dish front. Maybe marginally faster with all things being equal, but being more comfortable would be faster in the end.

Once he explained the rule about 75 cm ( I believe) it became obvious that his tri position is well beyond that number. I just hope he is back to that position for Daytona because it looks really slick (although, we haven't seen any video of a wind tunnel or more track aero testing, yet).

This is the most excited I've been to see a boring bike ride in a long, LONG time!

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [dfru] [ In reply to ]
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This is the most excited I've been to see a boring bike ride in a long, LONG time!


Brent,

We'll try and make it exciting! :-)

While I do have people's attention not just to Brent but to everyone on the Forum, on this - what DO you want us to talk about during the Live Stream. What questions do you want answered (ask away here on this thread)? What do you want us to talk about?


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Last edited by: Fleck: Oct 16, 20 8:38
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:
This is the most excited I've been to see a boring bike ride in a long, LONG time!


Brent,

We'll try and make it exciting! :-)

While I do have people's attention not just to Brent but to everyone on the Forum, on this - what DO you want us to talk about during the Live Stream. What questions do you want answered (ask away here on this thread)? What do you want us to talk about?


Just an idea, it could be cool to get MTM on the line to share some of his experiences and get his commentary.

Not sure you are allowed to do this, but stick a WASP under his seat and show the Alphamantis dashboard of power, speed and CDA. That would be cool
Last edited by: marcag: Oct 16, 20 8:45
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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Canadian record is a shade under 49kmph.

Most of difference is due to UCI rules so don´t read much into the change in position.

David

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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tilburs wrote:
Canadian record is a shade under 49kmph.

Easy peasy for him :-)
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [FuzzyRunner] [ In reply to ]
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Bike details and "official" race date/time announcement



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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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Just an idea, it could be cool to get MTM on the line to share some of his experiences and get his commentary.

Not sure you are allowed to do this, but stick a WASP under his seat and show the Alphamantis dashboard of power, speed and CDA. That would be cool



Who is MTM??

The UCI is funny/serious about extra stuff on the bike - no cameras, etc . .for these attempts.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:
Who is MTM??

Martin Toft Madsen. He is MTM here on ST. I think he posted in the thread. He has (or had) the Danish record and did at lease one attempt at the world record.

Super technical dude.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [FuzzyRunner] [ In reply to ]
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Shimano SPD-SL instead of Speedplay aeros? That seems like a rather large mistake.

Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:
This is the most excited I've been to see a boring bike ride in a long, LONG time!


Brent,

We'll try and make it exciting! :-)

While I do have people's attention not just to Brent but to everyone on the Forum, on this - what DO you want us to talk about during the Live Stream. What questions do you want answered (ask away here on this thread)? What do you want us to talk about?

Not so much a question for Lionel but for the broadcast, will we be seeing real time overlay of his time, distance, and projected distance over 1 hour, if he's ahead or behind, etc?

Also, he is not allowed to have power I believe I heard in the vido, so my guess is we will not have any data (hear rate, power, etc.) to follow along, as he recently did with his 6km TT run video? Is this correct?

What will be his post event meal? (Pangoa bowl Freshi?) (Pizza?)

Lastly, thank you for helping out with the broadcast, DAMN I'm going to miss an hour+ of work next Friday for this!! Really looking forward to it!!
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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I have no involvement in this position, though I did email a few pointers after I saw the video.

I would like to point out something that I think is pretty cool. Lionel did email me inquiring about using the LA velodrome for this attempt. It remains closed due to Covid, but I did point out that it would be smarter to go down to Aquascalientes as it's much faster. His response, I believe, will make you respect him that much more. He said he didn't want to make the attempt at altitude because the current record was set at sea level, and he thought it only fair that he should make his attempt at sea level as well to keep things even. I was pleasantly surprised at this response and his respect for fair play. Rooting for him all the way.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [FuzzyRunner] [ In reply to ]
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OK I was just watching his video and he says he is going with a 61x13.

To put a few set ups in perspective:

  • Eddy Merckx: 52x14 for 49.431
  • Obree: 52x12 for 51.596
  • Boardman on Corima standard tri bars: 53x13 for 52.270
  • Rominger: 60x14 for 55.291
  • Boardman Super man: 56x13 for 56.373


All of these numbers were done above 100 RPM, closer to 105 RPM on mainly lower gearing than post 2014 other than Rominger. Since 2014 slighly larger gearing but most are still way lower than Lionel

  • Rohan Dennis 56x14 52.491
  • Bradley Wiggins, 58x14 54.528
  • Victor Campanaerts 61x14 55.089


Lionel is going with a gear that is 26 percent larger than Eddy Merckx to go for a target near Eddy's speed (Canadian Hour record is a touch slower). The delta between Lionel's gearing and Victor's is 8% but Victor ended up going 55 kph. Rominger and Campanaerts used the same gear and ended up at the same speed, but Rominger was at sea level in Bordeaux (but there was no blood passport back then) vs Campanaerts at sea level.

Lionel will end up cranking at much lower RPM than most of the guys who did this. The rough math is he will end up riding more at closer to half IM or IM cadence than world hour cadence at the target speed (maybe 88-90 RPM)?

Or he's planning to end up riding as fast as Rominger and Campanaerts with close to 100 cadence on the biggest gear ever used till now.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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He says right in the video that he plans to do this ride at 89 rpm.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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I wish Lionel success in his attempt. Do you think his elbow width distance and forearms are too wide in terms of their placement? Most record attempts appear to have forearms nearly touching or touching.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [wetswimmer99] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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He could have been a lot faster, too! The rocket fuel coursing through his veins allows for a lot of aero sins. Show me a pic in the last 20 years of an hour record setter, that has a position similar to Indurain. A few things have been learned regarding aero optimization in 25 years.
Last edited by: wetswimmer99: Oct 17, 20 10:12
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
I have no involvement in this position, though I did email a few pointers after I saw the video.

I would like to point out something that I think is pretty cool. Lionel did email me inquiring about using the LA velodrome for this attempt. It remains closed due to Covid, but I did point out that it would be smarter to go down to Aquascalientes as it's much faster. His response, I believe, will make you respect him that much more. He said he didn't want to make the attempt at altitude because the current record was set at sea level, and he thought it only fair that he should make his attempt at sea level as well to keep things even. I was pleasantly surprised at this response and his respect for fair play. Rooting for him all the way.

Interesting that LA was even a consideration. VELO is such a slow track. And it's hard to ride. An hour on VELO would be super-tiring just holding the line. Milton is a really good track for this. Plus you avoid any of the potential risks associated with needing to do an altitude block. If you can't do altitude, sea level makes a lot more sense, and not just from the standpoint of "fair play." Campanaerts did that big block (6wks, IIRC) in Namibia before heading to Aguas; without something like that (most likely would be, IMO, a block at Colorado Springs), I don't think you'd want to do an hour at altitude. For the pursuit - especially 3K, it's fine, but even there, Mike McCarthy said the altitude hit hard without preparation.

Milton's not that much slower than Aguas since they refinished it. And if you can train on it regularly, that counts for a lot. Milton is certainly one of the better "hour tracks," and, as Dan Bigham showed with his 53.5 at Derby, familiarity counts for a lot. I forget what the track record is for IP in Milton, but in the TP, the Canadians won PanAms in 3:49 ("only" 5 sec off the WR) and the Danes went 3:53 in 2018. That's quick. Granted, that's pretty much the same core that set the current WR of 3:44 (just swapping Folsach for Rodenberg) in Berlin this year (also, notably, at sea level, but very likely with some HVAC trickery as is so common). The Canadian women went 4:13 (only 1 sec off the WR) there in 2018. So it's a fast track. And, especially based on the Canadian's 3:49 and - even more so - 4:13 (by the women), the value of a track you can ride regularly is massive. Will be interesting to see if he gets good air or not on the day.

Especially given that it won't even take 50km to set a new record, Milton is the clear choice. And even going for a substantially further mark, it's still a very good option. The only case now where I would say Aguas (or probably Bolivia) is a real requirement is if you're talking about the overall hour. But one track where I absolutely would never want to do an hour attempt is VELO.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:

Or he's planning to end up riding as fast as Rominger and Campanaerts with close to 100 cadence on the biggest gear ever used till now.

I highly doubt it. I think your math is off though. Isn't 61 x 13 @ 100 rpm more like 59 kph?

Even at 90 rpm that would be around 53 kph, which would be a very respectable performance comparable to Dennis and Dowsett, maybe a bit ambitious? As long as he can keep the legs going at around 83 rpm no matter what, he will take the Canadian record.

I have always found Rominger's performance to be the most impressive. 55.3 kph for a ~135 lb guy on a steel road frame with aerobars and discs at seal level. Yeah, he was working with Ferrari. This is just my opinion and I have no evidence, but I am not convinced the top of the sport is fully "clean" these days.

Indurain perhaps had the engine to go a bit faster, but he never looked comfortable on the track and I don't think his aero setup on that god-awful bike was that great. If anything his 92 TT setup seemed faster.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Engner66] [ In reply to ]
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As Lionel has asserted he´s shooting for a cadence he is extremely proficient and familiar at.

Dev et al..... you can opine about pedals, elbows, hands, head, gearing, cadence etc... etc... but this is a "short window", "have a crack", "have some fun doing something crazy"

It is not optimise the beejesus out of everything to the n´th degree (and believe me I am well versed in all the equipment, gearing, cadence, CdA, position, environmental factors marginal gain stuff...) in a manner that would compromise comfort and power in short term and in reality take 9 months to prep, plan and adapt to.

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Signal8] [ In reply to ]
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I hope he has practiced long blocks at that low of an rpm.

MVH rides super low rpm, but she's an anomaly. Pretty much everyone that starts on a gear setup for that low of an rpm is going to have to be worried about it getting on top of them for the last third or so.

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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Am I right in saying Ed Veal is the current record holder? I have an idea that a UCI Pro did the hour a few years ago (Canadian) but I can't remember.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [bluntandy] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, 48.587kmph

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for your input. Some of us get the feeling that this was perhaps not your first choice for a "pandemic goal". It does seem like an exciting event, and it would be great to see the Canadian record go over the 50 kph mark.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Engner66] [ In reply to ]
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I was pointing out that he has the highest gearing EVER of any athlete who has ended with an hour record (highest gearing previously was 61x14). He will probably end up riding in between 85 RPM and 90 RPM depending on his final speed which is also an outlier for 1 hour threshold effort.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [bluntandy] [ In reply to ]
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Am I right in saying Ed Veal is the current record holder? I have an idea that a UCI Pro did the hour a few years ago (Canadian) but I can't remember


Yes - Ed Veal, who will be joining me in the commentary for Live Stream currently holds the Official Canadian One Hour Record.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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Tilbers, I never made any comments on HIS pad width or his pedal selection or his aero position. Just that his gearing selection is an outlier for his target speed.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [wetswimmer99] [ In reply to ]
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Just to be clear, the picture of Indurain was meant in jest. His position was bad relative to everyone before and after him, but that roughly worked for him on the road (and for sure, what was in his veins was on par with his peers...remember how much Lemond beat Indurain by in the 1989 finishing ITT....Indurain was not even in the same time zone in the pre EPO era in 89)


But to add to his discomfort, Big Mig went to 190mm cranks in the month leading up to his attempt when his road crank length was 175mm. No wonder he looked uncomfortable. But he did this when the theory was longer cranks at the same pedal force will result in more crank torque and keeping the same RPM riders would magically generate more power. Almost everyone before Indurain did it on 175's Everyone was on 175's from Anquetil to Obree (including Boardmans's first record on the Corima). Later Boardman went to 170 for the superman.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Lionel will end up cranking at much lower RPM than most of the guys who did this. The rough math is he will end up riding more at closer to half IM or IM cadence than world hour cadence at the target speed (maybe 88-90 RPM)?


Some observations having spent A LOT of time watching top level triathletes race and A LOT of time watching top level Road Racers and in particular Track Cyclists race. The triathletes have a lower turnover compared to the Roadies and in particular the Track specialists. For the latter, many of come up through the Youth and Junior ranks where they have a max gear for the U20 riders, so ounce up to speed, higher, and higher cadence is the ONLY way to get the bike to go faster. Watching a U20 race, you see quickly where the "soupless" with lap after lap of open racing at over 120 RPM! That's NOT Lionel.

As David said, he's picked a gear that matches what HIS optimal RPM will be. The testing that he has done on the track so far, has told him that. He rides best at about 88 - 90. Trying to ride at 100 - 105, would be out side his wheelhouse.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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By the way, what is the US record now?

As for Milton, its also really easy for travel given where he lives too! Its about as cheap a location as he could end up with!!!! No jetlag and body adjustments either. This should be very awesome.

By the way, what is the typical "addtional distance" that the best riders ride due to not being "on the line" for the entire hour? Or put another way, what is good "additional distance"?
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Milton's not that much slower than Aguas since they refinished it. And if you can train on it regularly, that counts for a lot. Milton is certainly one of the better "hour tracks," and, as Dan Bigham showed with his 53.5 at Derby, familiarity counts for a lot. I forget what the track record is for IP in Milton, but in the TP, the Canadians won PanAms in 3:49 ("only" 5 sec off the WR) and the Danes went 3:53 in 2018. That's quick. Granted, that's pretty much the same core that set the current WR of 3:44 (just swapping Folsach for Rodenberg) in Berlin this year (also, notably, at sea level, but very likely with some HVAC trickery as is so common). The Canadian women went 4:13 (only 1 sec off the WR) there in 2018. So it's a fast track. And, especially based on the Canadian's 3:49 and - even more so - 4:13 (by the women), the value of a track you can ride regularly is massive. Will be interesting to see if he gets good air or not on the day.



Good input.

Thanks, Jordan

Dan Bingham, has told me that Milton is reasonably fast - but he also said, that the turns are not 100% symmetrical, and you need to be careful when you have the bike at speed! It seemed strange to me, but there's a big difference between my 35 - 40km/h on the track on a drop bars and Dan, riding 50 - 55km, on aero bars a few cm off the rear wheel of one of his team mates in a Team Pursuit!!

Familiarity with the track is key. As it is Lionel's only been on the track a few times. This may be his biggest limiter. How many laps of the track has Lionel done vs a World Class Track Pursuiter like Dan Bingham??


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
By the way, what is the US record now?

As for Milton, its also really easy for travel given where he lives too! Its about as cheap a location as he could end up with!!!! No jetlag and body adjustments either. This should be very awesome.

By the way, what is the typical "addtional distance" that the best riders ride due to not being "on the line" for the entire hour? Or put another way, what is good "additional distance"?

US record is still Zirbel's 53.037. That record certainly could/should fall. I had planned to take a crack at it either this fall or early next year (likely Aguas, likely with a camp at Colo Springs), but that was before Covid. The HUUB guys had talked about heading to Bolivia to try to set a bunch of records - and it would have made sense to include Ashton, who I think could for sure break Zirbel's record with only a bit of focused preparation. I thought - and still think (at least for maybe another year or so) - that I could do it; Zirbel just left so, so much on the table in terms of optimization; by power he should have ridden at least another 1km further. IIRC, he did somewhere between 420-440 (he's a big dude...). But on a Diamondback Serios? In 53x13? With a stock front end? I mean, it's astonishing... Thin air helps... A LOT.

But Covid has also changed my perspective on what bike riding and racing means to me. I've been off the track for so long it seems very strange to think about an hour attempt. Master's Worlds coming back to LA next October is appealing, but it's also still quite hard to have any confidence that things will return to "normal." Canada is much more normal in that regard, though still, one has to wonder how track cycling will (or won't) survive Covid. Without the Olympics, will it? It was already super niche, and I don't know that I believe Tokyo games will happen, and - even if they do - will track world cups be a thing again? Lots of athletes crowded together indoors? I just don't know... With so much uncertainty in general, the sway of these types of things seems ... different. At least to me. I know that was a bit of a tangent...

In terms of how much of a difference a good or bad line makes, it certainly can add up. Probably easier to give some perspective on what a "good" line or a "bad" line measures out to.

The red line - aka the sprinters line - is somewhere between 70-90cm above the black line. The blue line is 5m above the black. The total difference in length riding the blue line - which would be beyond bad; it would be truly atrocious - is 15m over a single lap (or an additional 6%). Riding the red line would be an additional approx. 6m (2.4%). You can do the math yourself, but plenty of sites have done it for you - https://www.trackcyclingacademy.com/...around-the-velodrome.

Assuming that a bad line kind of floats between black/red, I think you'd be looking at likely an additional approx. 1% additional distance. You'll ALSO suffer some losses from scrubbing speed on the lateral movement. I think 1% at the very least is likely for the difference between, for example, Bigham and Lionel on the same track. Bigham's 53.5 on 350w is truly remarkable. That's a combination of incredible discipline, optimization, and execution. IIRC, it was within like 0.1% of what he predicted he could do based on testing. Maybe even less. Most of those HUUB guys (except the bigger Tanfields) have CdAs down under 0.18. There's rumors that Archibald even got under 0.16, which is insane. In March, after a fair bit of refinement, I was just a shade under 0.2. While it would have been a huge investment, I was seriously considering the new Wattshop front end, which would have given me the potential to get under 0.19. Wiggins was 0.185, IIRC, from what Josh P told me.

I doubt Lionel is under 0.2, but he might be. At least, for the start. Will be interesting to see how his position degrades (or doesn't) over the hour. As DTD said, there's a ton more optimization that they could have done if this was a serious attempt at the hour. Given the number of strong Canadian TTers and also just how good their TP team is, the fact that the HR is <49km is actually quite shocking. I mean, yeah altitude and all of that, but our very own Kevin Metcalfe's 55-59 HR is notably further than the current Canadian HR. The fact that a triathlete (even one whose physiology and training regime biases him towards such an attempt) is even a consideration for breaking this record essentially "on a lark" still surprises me.

Interesting aside, back before the current hour craze kicked off in full swing, Sebi thought about making a go at the overall HR. Back when Jensie set the record at 51.1. Sebi was extremely confident he could have bested that mark, but he said, "why? to what end?" And I suppose that's really a big part of why the Canadian mark is so low. The HR sucks to train for. Sucks to do. And it's expensive. And no one really cares, at least from a financial perspective. I do hope Ganna goes for it. But I'd rather see him go sub-4. But we shall see. Covid has changed so much about the sporting world, and I don't think it's done yet.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Im excited to see this too, good luck Lionel! For those of us that have never ridden on a track. Is a track slippery? Does one have to be careful about sudden accelerations or is it the opposite and very grippy? is sweat a factor dripping on the track later in the hour?
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [rideupgrades] [ In reply to ]
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rideupgrades wrote:
Im excited to see this too, good luck Lionel! For those of us that have never ridden on a track. Is a track slippery? Does one have to be careful about sudden accelerations or is it the opposite and very grippy? is sweat a factor dripping on the track later in the hour?

They can be slick'ish depending on the surface and the finish, (and of course the tires) the real danger is of going too slow around the bends, at which point you'll slide off the track. Last year lap1 of a scratch race the guy right above me did that... taking out about 4 of us, not a lot of fun. In general the only concern you'd have with a sudden acceleration would be pulling a wheel... but that only realistically happens with worn/improperly adjusted equipment, or on a standing start where a guy is pulling ~1800+watts. Water could be an issue, but it would take more than the amount you would sweat.

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for your detailed response. I would think that moving out of Covid19, track racing will fall into the same category as swim meets. Lots of people indoors with a few athletes racing. I think we will get there so you guys will be back on the track. We have had world wars get in the way of sport and then its all restarted later. Human spirit won't let all this die off. Our memories of misery are short on all fronts. Just give it time.

As for US record, your attempts, I assume wider pad width gives you more control in terms of traveling too far on each lap but an aero penalty. In terms of TTing and puttind down power and aero position, I think your weight is around the same as Chris Boardman's was and you're 15 cm taller? So someone like Chris would have a major aero advantage (shorter legs, shorter torso)? By the way, what crank length were you going to use. Shorter cranks to get more aero, or lengths like the former winners (I suppose 175 on you is like 165 on Boardman anyway). And what gearing and RPM would you have been targeting.

One more question, on the helmet front. Back in the day Boardman, Rominger and others just used fairings. I assume the helmets required for use today are normal aero helmets with more frontal than old school fairnings and more aero drag. What is the thinnest frontal helmet that current guys can get away with?
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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tilburs wrote:
Because having fun and staying motivated key drivers.

He is still swimming and Daytona is the focus. Physiologically speaking getting into great 1hr bike shape and 5k speed shape aligns nicely with training demands of speed needs for Daytona.

It seems like he just went for his 3k running PB and might be going for his 5km PB this week? I hope that timing isn't going to compromise this one hour effort.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [The Guardian] [ In reply to ]
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Not as far as he and I see, the 3k TT was simply part of the 5k build, not in and of itself a goal.

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag wrote:
Fleck wrote:

Who is MTM??


Martin Toft Madsen. He is MTM here on ST. I think he posted in the thread. He has (or had) the Danish record and did at lease one attempt at the world record.

3rd fastest Hour (behind Campenaerts and Wiggins) set in Denmark last year at a hair under 54km. He mentioned another attempt this fall to have something to do...
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [FuzzyRunner] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [talbotcox] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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tilburs wrote:
Not as far as he and I see, the 3k TT was simply part of the 5k build, not in and of itself a goal.

Sorry, I meant if he tried to PB in a 5km on the track this week, would that impact his one hour record cycling attempt. I have no idea, just wondering.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Thanks for your detailed response. I would think that moving out of Covid19, track racing will fall into the same category as swim meets. Lots of people indoors with a few athletes racing. I think we will get there so you guys will be back on the track. We have had world wars get in the way of sport and then its all restarted later. Human spirit won't let all this die off. Our memories of misery are short on all fronts. Just give it time.

As for US record, your attempts, I assume wider pad width gives you more control in terms of traveling too far on each lap but an aero penalty. In terms of TTing and puttind down power and aero position, I think your weight is around the same as Chris Boardman's was and you're 15 cm taller? So someone like Chris would have a major aero advantage (shorter legs, shorter torso)? By the way, what crank length were you going to use. Shorter cranks to get more aero, or lengths like the former winners (I suppose 175 on you is like 165 on Boardman anyway). And what gearing and RPM would you have been targeting.

One more question, on the helmet front. Back in the day Boardman, Rominger and others just used fairings. I assume the helmets required for use today are normal aero helmets with more frontal than old school fairnings and more aero drag. What is the thinnest frontal helmet that current guys can get away with?

172.5. I've done a lot of testing and I think that's the right length for me. 172.5 was clearly better than 175. But 170 seemed pretty clearly worse. I'd target right around 100rpm, which is now fairly comfortable for me. So 100rpm targeting 53.1km. I'd have to do the math on that, but I think that's likely 108" or so? Maybe 106" (So 60x15 or 59x15). But yeah, being 6'3" is not "ideal" for track racing... Wink

On helmets, the POC Tempor seems the pretty clear champ on the track. It's got a ton of fairing. It doesn't have tiny FA, but it does do an amazing job of filling in the gaps.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Looks like Lionel is going with the Garneau helmet he's been using for triathlon according to some subtle social media posts on the Garneau IG feed showing an all black paint scheme.
Last edited by: WHITEJM74: Oct 20, 20 12:40
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
Thanks for your detailed response. I would think that moving out of Covid19, track racing will fall into the same category as swim meets. Lots of people indoors with a few athletes racing. I think we will get there so you guys will be back on the track. We have had world wars get in the way of sport and then its all restarted later. Human spirit won't let all this die off. Our memories of misery are short on all fronts. Just give it time.

As for US record, your attempts, I assume wider pad width gives you more control in terms of traveling too far on each lap but an aero penalty. In terms of TTing and puttind down power and aero position, I think your weight is around the same as Chris Boardman's was and you're 15 cm taller? So someone like Chris would have a major aero advantage (shorter legs, shorter torso)? By the way, what crank length were you going to use. Shorter cranks to get more aero, or lengths like the former winners (I suppose 175 on you is like 165 on Boardman anyway). And what gearing and RPM would you have been targeting.

One more question, on the helmet front. Back in the day Boardman, Rominger and others just used fairings. I assume the helmets required for use today are normal aero helmets with more frontal than old school fairnings and more aero drag. What is the thinnest frontal helmet that current guys can get away with?


172.5. I've done a lot of testing and I think that's the right length for me. 172.5 was clearly better than 175. But 170 seemed pretty clearly worse. I'd target right around 100rpm, which is now fairly comfortable for me. So 100rpm targeting 53.1km. I'd have to do the math on that, but I think that's likely 108" or so? Maybe 106" (So 60x15 or 59x15). But yeah, being 6'3" is not "ideal" for track racing... Wink

On helmets, the POC Tempor seems the pretty clear champ on the track. It's got a ton of fairing. It doesn't have tiny FA, but it does do an amazing job of filling in the gaps.

Yeah, being tall and thin doing all those G forces at each turn its literally harder to get all the blood pooling in your legs way back up to your heart (kind of like the tall fighter pilot's disadvantage in high G force turns) haha! Boardman would have an advantage on you. Same weight, less height, less frontal, easier to pump blood back to heart on 800+ high G turns in an hour (once per 9 seconds)!
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Link for Friday - https://www.youtube.com/...amp;feature=youtu.be

We will be going Live with the Stream at 12:30pm EDT

Lionel will start about 5 mins later, and then 60 minutes after that, be done! :-)


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:
Link for Friday - https://www.youtube.com/...amp;feature=youtu.be

We will be going Live with the Stream at 12:30pm EDT

Lionel will start about 5 mins later, and then 60 minutes after that, be done! :-)

Cool!
I really hope his 5k on 2 days before does not hinder his.chances!
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [lassekk] [ In reply to ]
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That attempt was on Saturday
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [talbotcox] [ In reply to ]
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talbotcox wrote:
That attempt was on Saturday
Ah stupid me! The premiere thing somehow made my brain think it was live, but that is perfect, nice confidence boost
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [talbotcox] [ In reply to ]
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talbotcox wrote:
That attempt was on Saturday

Wait, did we miss the biggests event in multisport all year and is Lionel tacking on a sub 9 min 3000m warmup job before and sub 15:30 5km jog after? OK all kidding aside, I assume the entire stream will be replayable?
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Etiquette on doing a 5km PB paced by a bike?
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [vanchize] [ In reply to ]
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vanchize wrote:
Etiquette on doing a 5km PB paced by a bike?

I don't know but Lionel runs so fast he needs the banking of the velodrome for his 20 laps 5km after his 200 laps 50km on the bike
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [vanchize] [ In reply to ]
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vanchize wrote:
Etiquette on doing a 5km PB paced by a bike?

I was wondering the same thing, he did his baseline fully solo and clocked sub 16 min. It would have been great if he would have done it with the bike behind as it would have been more comparable performances. At 21 kph, into a headwind at the track, some pacing in the form of bike or person does help.

Still, 14:34 is a solid performance, nowhere near the top triathlete runners but he has definitely improved. His technique has improved a bit too.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [vanchize] [ In reply to ]
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Etiquette on doing a 5km PB paced by a bike?


You know we have had 5000m and 10000m World Record races on the track this year, using Pacing Lights!

This is a personal time trial training effort!! Does the pace bike matter?


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:
Etiquette on doing a 5km PB paced by a bike?


You know we have had 5000m and 10000m World Record races on the track this year, using Pacing Lights!

This is a personal time trial training effort!! Does the pace bike matter?

Of course it does matter! I only run high 16 and change 5 k. So like 18 kph, even at that speed, if I can tuck behind a rider or runner, specially into a headwind, you save a few seconds here and there.

Pacing lights is different as it does not give any drafting advantage.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Engner66] [ In reply to ]
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Engner66 wrote:
Fleck wrote:
Etiquette on doing a 5km PB paced by a bike?


You know we have had 5000m and 10000m World Record races on the track this year, using Pacing Lights!

This is a personal time trial training effort!! Does the pace bike matter?


Of course it does matter! I only run high 16 and change 5 k. So like 18 kph, even at that speed, if I can tuck behind a rider or runner, specially into a headwind, you save a few seconds here and there.

Pacing lights is different as it does not give any drafting advantage.

I would say that the bike may make it slightly faster, but the pacing lights took all of the thought into pacing out of it.

Massive improvement. I fully suspect the swim isn't as bad or neglected as people speculate, and this is much more thought through than social media is leading some of ST to believe. Daytona should be massive...

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:
Etiquette on doing a 5km PB paced by a bike?


You know we have had 5000m and 10000m World Record races on the track this year, using Pacing Lights!

This is a personal time trial training effort!! Does the pace bike matter?

Those records also involved pacers (rabbits).

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Engner66] [ In reply to ]
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Yes they even had pacers like Mo Farrah at the London marathon this year. The drafting advantage of the bike definitely is an advantage, as well as not having to check the watch. I wonder if he did his previous PB in 2013 behind a bike.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Engner66] [ In reply to ]
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Of course it does matter!


OK - so, for you, there will be a UCI Commissaire at the Track on Friday measuring Sock Height (they actually have a device for that!!), just so we are all legal! :-)


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Last edited by: Fleck: Oct 21, 20 16:26
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Some people just cannot appreciate something for what it is. He went out for a PERSONAL best which means nothing to anyone but himself. Who cares if he used a pacer or not. Now for the Hour attempt if he wants to it be official then he needs to play by the rules, which I am assuming he is doing.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [talbotcox] [ In reply to ]
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talbotcox wrote:
That attempt was on Saturday

Thanks Talbot.

So was it Erin that Lionel was referring to as setting a new 5k PB? I know his mom has been going to the track from time to time to train with him.
Cannot wait until Friday, GO LIONEL!!!!!
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Engner66] [ In reply to ]
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Engner66 wrote:

Of course it does matter!

This was just a fun run, not an official record or something...
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]
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BigBoyND wrote:
Engner66 wrote:


Of course it does matter!


This was just a fun run, not an official record or something...

Sounds like his mother (not a big lady) was on the bike (guessing), but if his buddy Corey Bellemore ran the whole thing in front of him, it would have been greater draft and nobody would question it haha.

Long live Lionel, without him, we'd have to move on full time to Sam Long...

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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My original comment is that it would have been nice to see how fast he would have gone from the sub 16 he did without any drafting to where he is right now, perhaps it would have been 14:40-14:50?. Running a 14:34 with or without pacing/drafting is no easy feat.

UCI rules are just ridiculous.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [FuzzyRunner] [ In reply to ]
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Kevin McKinnon and Steve Fleck chatting with current Canadian 1 hour record holder Ed Veal before the attempt tomorrow:

https://www.facebook.com/trimagcan/videos/372660503783811/




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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [sportstats] [ In reply to ]
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Kevin McKinnon and Steve Fleck chatting with current Canadian 1 hour record holder Ed Veal before the attempt tomorrow:


Thanks, Marc for posting that up.

A few things came up:

- Lionel has the fitness and the horsepower to do this!

- Where he will have challenges:

1) The technical aspects of riding the bike on the track at 50km/h

2) Experience riding the track - it took Ed Veal two attempts to get to 48.5 km, AND he's a very experienced Track Cyclist - Bronze Medal in the Team Pursuit at the 2015 Pan Am Games, and has raced a full winter program of Track racing for many years. All of the top Hour riders as well as many top roadies, race on the track regularly in the winter - yes, it's just turning a gear over, but there is WAY more to it all than that!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Steve

I found Ed's technical 'red flags' very interesting. The gearing and cadence concerns are valid. Ed was just shaking his head while you were describing his plan! Also the fact is that the required wattage is not a constant when riding the track. Its cyclical and the variations from the turns to the straights every 8 seconds or so, at that low a cadence, will require super-human concentration. Lionel is extremely strong, but it will be very dark for him between 40 and 55 minutes.

Go Lionel !
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [vanchize] [ In reply to ]
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He could have worn Nike shoes instead of Sketchers.

http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [timr] [ In reply to ]
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timr wrote:
He could have worn Nike shoes instead of Sketchers.

but then he wont know if he beat his former PR as the nike shoes these days assist in speed.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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jaretj wrote:
There's really not much turning in a velodrome because the track turns you. It's pretty much riding in a straight line.


Kind of, but you shouldn't undercut the G's on your neck as you round each corner. It can get tiring very quickly if you aren't accustomed to it. I don't know what kind of prep he's doing so this may or may not be an issue
Last edited by: jhammond: Oct 23, 20 11:03
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [jhammond] [ In reply to ]
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Just replying in general here but @steve fleck, excellent job with the broadcast. And to Lionel and team, well done delivering under pressure.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [itritoo] [ In reply to ]
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WOW, congrats Lionel and team! Excellent broadcast and commentary!! I think this sets up his training leading into Challenge Daytona. Will still be a tall task for him to Podium. Go Lionel!!!!
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [CementBottle] [ In reply to ]
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CementBottle wrote:
WOW, congrats Lionel and team! Excellent broadcast and commentary!! I think this sets up his training leading into Challenge Daytona. Will still be a tall task for him to Podium. Go Lionel!!!!

Based on the post race interview, he knows this, that was the purpose of the 5k/hour record fun - because he knows he is giving up too much time to the itu guys in the swim.

Dan Mayberry
Amateur a lot of things, professional a few things.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Nice job, Steve! Had planned to check in periodically but you/Ed held my attention and I watched the full thing. Congrats to all involved, solid effort by Lionel and good production.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Vols] [ In reply to ]
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Vols wrote:
Nice job, Steve! Had planned to check in periodically but you/Ed held my attention and I watched the full thing. Congrats to all involved, solid effort by Lionel and good production.

Agreed, the reality is...it’s rather boring to watch a man spin round and round a track. The announcers kept me engaged to make it more interesting.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [FuzzyRunner] [ In reply to ]
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Congrats to the dude!

I will say, folks comparing drop and bull horn setups of yesteryear with relatively flappy kit and no fancy TT helmet.......it’s a fun comparison but really worthless. The CdA difference is comically worlds apart.

As for Obree, that was a lot of position in the egg. Endura said only like 345w? Now, the superman didn’t prove as good as a Huub Wattbike level modern UCI setup. So more power there.

I like to just leave it where it is, a fantastic performance that yielded a good result.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [CementBottle] [ In reply to ]
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51.304km. This just barely beats Jens Voigt's first hour WR after the rules were reset back in 2014. Quite a far cry from current record of 55.089, but still one's got to be impressed that a triathlete with essentially no hours on the track and who trains indoors only can manage this distance. I'm not sure I need to spend an hour of my life watching it, though.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
Congrats to the dude!

I will say, folks comparing drop and bull horn setups of yesteryear with relatively flappy kit and no fancy TT helmet.......it’s a fun comparison but really worthless. The CdA difference is comically worlds apart.

As for Obree, that was a lot of position in the egg. Endura said only like 345w? Now, the superman didn’t prove as good as a Huub Wattbike level modern UCI setup. So more power there.

I like to just leave it where it is, a fantastic performance that yielded a good result.

I would generally agree With this sentiment. Also if you look at boardman breaking Merckx record it wasn’t exactly a “road bike†set up, 170mm stem, long top tube and iirc 30cm bars etc.

Maurice
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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DFW_Tri wrote:
Vols wrote:
Nice job, Steve! Had planned to check in periodically but you/Ed held my attention and I watched the full thing. Congrats to all involved, solid effort by Lionel and good production.


Agreed, the reality is...it’s rather boring to watch a man spin round and round a track. The announcers kept me engaged to make it more interesting.
.
.
I agree,Steve and Ed did a great job.I was especially interested to listen to and see Ed's mood change ever so subtly as Lionel closed in over the last 10minutes.It was almost like you could feel him thinking "I could have gone so much faster" and he even mentions people calling his a "soft" record and quietly concedes that it was.Those are the moments when you can see the emotion sport can bring out in people and how much it can mean to those who strive to be the best.You had to feel for him standing there watching it all unfold.The flow on from this will be huge and props to Lionel for putting himself out there in his own crazy style.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
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Just want to personally thank everyone for tuning in and following along. Hats off to the production team Greg and Jason, as well as Steve and Ed. This production was a monster. Probably put in 100 hours the last 2 weeks prepping. Massive thank you to everyone and the positive comments. Lionel lives for this stuff so do I! See you on the next project. We are going to take a 2 week youtube break and will start pumping more videos once Lionels gets back to the states.

Cheers again -Talbot
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [talbotcox] [ In reply to ]
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Great efforts from both of you!
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [CementBottle] [ In reply to ]
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CementBottle wrote:
WOW, congrats Lionel and team! Excellent broadcast and commentary!! I think this sets up his training leading into Challenge Daytona. Will still be a tall task for him to Podium. Go Lionel!!!!

Finally getting to watch this and it is like watching Sun Yang swim solo. When you watch Sun Yang swimming with his slow turnover he looks slow...until you see him beside someone. Lionel riding 88 RPM looks like he is cruising up to Hawi vs videos of Boardman going up at 105 RPM!!!! I am loving Fleck and Ed Veal's commentary!
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [talbotcox] [ In reply to ]
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Victor Campanaerts commented that Lionel's lines were similar to his but not as good as Dowsett's. That is an endorsement
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [jhammond] [ In reply to ]
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Would Lionel be able to qualify for the Canadian olympic team for individual pursuit?
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [talbotcox] [ In reply to ]
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Production and commentary was great. Better than most triathlon races.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [LifeTri] [ In reply to ]
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LifeTri wrote:
Would Lionel be able to qualify for the Canadian olympic team for individual pursuit?

I was just wondering about that. He's in a similar club to Boardman and Wiggins (a bit slower but still) on the hour record nd both are 4000m pursuit gold medalists so you would think over 4 minutes, he would also be not far off . 4 min physiology is still around 3:40 slowtwitch and only 20 seconds fast twitch sprinting. But he would have to go at a higher RPM because if not he would give away too much time in the front end to get the massive gear wound up.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Anyone know why a 61-13 gear? Why not a 59-11 at same rpm?
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [AchillesHeal] [ In reply to ]
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Larger chainrings/cogs reduce the frictional drivetrain losses. Just like with oversized pulley wheels, the chain links don’t need to bend as much.

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Last edited by: Titanflexr: Oct 23, 20 23:45
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [AchillesHeal] [ In reply to ]
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AchillesHeal wrote:
Anyone know why a 61-13 gear? Why not a 59-11 at same rpm?

AFAIK there is more mechanical loss with an 11 than with a 13. I don't see any other explanation but I'm far from being a specialist in this field.

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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [captainolek] [ In reply to ]
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In this instance a few factors at play...

1) testing what felt best with the limited track time eg. 58/15 definitely not good choice neuromuscularly for Lionel

2) knowing Lionel’s cadence preference muscular endurance wise (this being the MOST important factor)

3) sourcing the best products / correct products quickly enough

4) the COVID restrictions impacting folks manufacturing capacity

61/13 was the end result of this.

We knew about the drivetrain friction marginal implications but if we had gone 14t we would have needed a 68t front and if we’d gone 15t (both rear cogs trackie’s would prefer in this scenario) we would have needed a 70t! Honestly that big my concern was the chainring clearing the chainstays.

Mark at Pyramid Cycle Design (supplier to many world records and hour record attempts) went out of his way for us to expedite a few track chainrings all coated as per HUUB Wattbike folks.

Likewise HED pulled out all the stops to hand build the Volo’s and supply the special splined White Industries cog.

Canyon literally sent the entire bike including crank and ring and cog Alex used.

4iiii expedited firting a left side only powermeter to a Vision Metron 165mm crank so we could calibrate power output in the test runs to speed and equipment choice.

It genuinely took “a village†to make this happen so fast and for that am thankful to many folks.

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
Last edited by: tilburs: Oct 24, 20 3:07
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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tilburs wrote:
In this instance a few factors at play...

1) testing what felt best with the limited track time eg. 58/15 definitely not good choice neuromuscularly for Lionel

2) knowing Lionel’s cadence preference muscular endurance wise (this being the MOST important factor)

3) sourcing the best products / correct products quickly enough

4) the COVID restrictions impacting folks manufacturing capacity

61/13 was the end result of this.

We knew about the drivetrain friction marginal implications but if we had gone 14t we would have needed a 68t front and if we’d gone 15t (both rear cogs trackie’s would prefer in this scenario) we would have needed a 70t! Honestly that big my concern was the chainring clearing the chainstays.

Mark at Pyramid Cycle Design (supplier to many world records and hour record attempts) went out of his way for us to expedite a few track chainrings all coated as per HUUB Wattbike folks.

Likewise HED pulled out all the stops to hand build the Volo’s and supply the special splined White Industries cog.

Canyon literally sent the entire bike including crank and ring and cog Alex used.

4iiii expedited firting a left side only powermeter to a Vision Metron 165mm crank so we could calibrate power output in the test runs to speed and equipment choice.

It genuinely took “a village†to make this happen so fast and for that am thankful too many folks.

Pretty amazing!

https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [kny] [ In reply to ]
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kny wrote:
51.304km. This just barely beats Jens Voigt's first hour WR after the rules were reset back in 2014. Quite a far cry from current record of 55.089, but still one's got to be impressed that a triathlete with essentially no hours on the track and who trains indoors only can manage this distance. I'm not sure I need to spend an hour of my life watching it, though.

wow ... tough crowd.

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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I think it was a class act to have Victor C and Alex D chatting with all of us throughout the attempt. Wasn't Barrie Shepley that said many years ago that Lionel should just focus on track cycling? Pretty sure he is not that far from the standard for the team pursuit. Ed Veal made the Pan Am team in 2015. Our national record is actually a very solid team pursuit effort 3:49, different team without Ed though.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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David, thanks for helping make this happen. Please pass my congrats to Lionel.

In the post interview he said he did a 30min "trial" at 380 watts and I understood this to be his target for the hour. Is this accurate ?

Congrats to Ed and Steve. I actually didn't watch but listened while riding. Great job.

If Steve can say, without getting into the detail of who is paying for what, how much does an effort like this end up costing with UCI commissioners, track.....?
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag wrote:
In the post interview he said he did a 30min "trial" at 380 watts and I understood this to be his target for the hour. Is this accurate ?

Based on that "trial" we expected that the "price" of 50kmph was going to be in that region. Obviously he went quicker :-)

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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tilburs wrote:
In this instance a few factors at play...

1) testing what felt best with the limited track time eg. 58/15 definitely not good choice neuromuscularly for Lionel

2) knowing Lionel’s cadence preference muscular endurance wise (this being the MOST important factor)

3) sourcing the best products / correct products quickly enough

4) the COVID restrictions impacting folks manufacturing capacity

61/13 was the end result of this.

We knew about the drivetrain friction marginal implications but if we had gone 14t we would have needed a 68t front and if we’d gone 15t (both rear cogs trackie’s would prefer in this scenario) we would have needed a 70t! Honestly that big my concern was the chainring clearing the chainstays.

Mark at Pyramid Cycle Design (supplier to many world records and hour record attempts) went out of his way for us to expedite a few track chainrings all coated as per HUUB Wattbike folks.

Likewise HED pulled out all the stops to hand build the Volo’s and supply the special splined White Industries cog.

Canyon literally sent the entire bike including crank and ring and cog Alex used.

4iiii expedited firting a left side only powermeter to a Vision Metron 165mm crank so we could calibrate power output in the test runs to speed and equipment choice.

It genuinely took “a village†to make this happen so fast and for that am thankful to many folks.

Thanks. That makes a lot of sense.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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tilburs wrote:
marcag wrote:
In the post interview he said he did a 30min "trial" at 380 watts and I understood this to be his target for the hour. Is this accurate ?


Based on that "trial" we expected that the "price" of 50kmph was going to be in that region. Obviously he went quicker :-)

It doesn't look like barometric pressure was too favorable either. Air density just under 1.16 ?
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [AchillesHeal] [ In reply to ]
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AchillesHeal wrote:
Anyone know why a 61-13 gear? Why not a 59-11 at same rpm?

61-13 would have more active teeth engaged in terms of friction losses. If you have more force on less teeth, I would think that should be more losses, so you want the biggest big ring and biggest rear sprocket for the same gear inches. But maybe some track folks can chime in. But a bigger chainring would also have a larger aero penalty if we are looking at all marginal tradeoffs. Does anyone know what crank length Lionel was on too. That has impact on effective gearing relative some former guys using 175s
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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Not sure on what the exact measurement was yesterday, haven´t seen the environmental data yet. But Milton velodrome was pretty stable at 0.072 lb/ft3 in past trials.... the temperature yesterday there was a few Centigrade higher than past trials.

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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It was a 165mm crank.

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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tilburs wrote:
It was a 165mm crank.

This makes the pedal force even higher than guys like Obree, Voigt and Moser who went around the same speed 51+ on smaller gearing. Lionel had the largest gear selection and the shortest cranks of all these guys making his pedal force requirements even more huge. Pretty impressive. Usually with shorter cranks the RPM comes up for the same wattage, but he did it by bringing pedal force up (relative to the other hour competitors).

Also it looked like he was the first one to use an Adamo (or equivalent) so he could have the UCI setback of 5 cm and still ride in a very forward position compared to others.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Steve, you did an excellent job on the coverage. It wouldn't be easy to keep information flowing for an entire hour but you did and had me watching the entire time.

Very impressed with Lionel and the entire crew. This is going to bring more people interested in breaking the new record, including Lionel who said he would like to try again.

Well done.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
tilburs wrote:
It was a 165mm crank.


This makes the pedal force even higher than guys like Obree, Voigt and Moser who went around the same speed 51+ on smaller gearing. Lionel had the largest gear selection and the shortest cranks of all these guys making his pedal force requirements even more huge. Pretty impressive. Usually with shorter cranks the RPM comes up for the same wattage, but he did it by bringing pedal force up (relative to the other hour competitors).

Also it looked like he was the first one to use an Adamo (or equivalent) so he could have the UCI setback of 5 cm and still ride in a very forward position compared to others.

you can put more force on the pedals if you start with a more open hip at top dead center. which is what the shorter cranks give you. but as you note, the biggest obvious difference over the last 2 or so years with lionel is to move from this position (kona, 2017):



to this position:



which, yes, he does mostly by moving forward on the saddle versus where he was 3 years ago. the whole positional transformation has happened since he moved to canyon. the first time i ever saw him on the velodrome - maybe the first time he was on one - was in carson (los angeles), where canyon and jim manton worked on his position (and to determine whether he was an S or a M in his speedmax bike size). even then, he was still a guy looking like he was trying, and failing to do the hoola hoop. (at least to my eyes). he looks a lot more polished now.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Corrected the link to youtube

Last edited by: justcallmejoe: Oct 24, 20 8:33
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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So let's compare Obree and Lionel in terms of crank force assuming same wattage which is likely bad, probably Obree pushed way less wind on the now banned Egg position

165 vs 175 cranks = 5.7 percet more pedal force
61x13 vs 52x12 = 8 percent more pedal force

If we say they did the same average watts (likely not the case), then Lionel likely puts out at least 14% higher pedal force per stroke to get to the same average wattage but its likely higher for the triathlete position vs Egg position.

As for shorter cranks allowing more pedal force, I always thought the idea was if you go to shorter cranks, you keep pedal force roughly constant and go to higher RPM for a fixed wattage (roughly pedal tangential speed stays the same whether is is a shorter or longer crank, for force stays the same, torque goes down due to the shorter arm, but RPM goes up, but that gets you to the same pedal tangential speed). Lionel is on a low pedal speed (short crank arm, low RPM), but high force to get to high torque so he gets to high watts.
Last edited by: devashish_paul: Oct 24, 20 8:05
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
So let's compare Obree and Lionel in terms of crank force assuming same wattage which is likely bad, probably Obree pushed way less wind on the now banned Egg position

165 vs 175 cranks = 5.7 percet more crank force
61x13 vs 52x12 = 8 percent more crank force

If we say they did the same average watts (likely not the case), then Lionel likely puts out at least 14% higher pedal force per stroke to get to the same average wattage but its likely higher for the triathlete position vs Egg position.

while not checking your math, i'm not disagreeing with you. what i'm saying is, it's easier to apply more pedal force if you approach the problem starting with greater leverage. the point of hte smaller crank is to punch the same hole into the wind while starting your push on the pedals with mechanical advantage. in this case biomechanical advantage. so, it's not like - wow, look at lionel's pedal force compared to others - it's that lionel gets to apply more pedal force because he begins with greater biomechanical leverage. and he needs that increased pedal force, because he's giving up the mechanical leverage of the longer crank.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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On the position change, please correct my probably flawed logic

If a 380 watts "budget" gave 50km/h, knowing air density would be around 1.16, we can work backwards to a CDA of .225. I assume total weight to be 74kg and CRR .003. Very rough numbers. I suspect his CRR was slightly better, but I don't know.

With the same parameters, at 51km/h he probably came closer to 400watts. Based on Lionel's Zwift races I think people pegged him around there. I don't think there are too many surprises here.

In 2016 Lionel was measured as a 0.230. That was published by the Alphamantis guys here on ST.

Has his position changed that much ? That was full tri setup and bike.

So what has changed ? Is he that much more aero, is he more powerful ? What is the surprise here ?

I think people are truly impressed with how well he rode. Actually I'm not that surprised, I remember when filming "Chasing the Lion", on day 2 at the end he was quite good on the track. He adapted very quickly.

Are we really surprised at Lionel's ability to suffer through this ? I'm not. It's known to be one of his greatest assets.

Where is my logic flawed ?
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag wrote:

On the position change, please correct my probably flawed logic

If a 380 watts "budget" gave 50km/h, knowing air density would be around 1.16, we can work backwards to a CDA of .225. I assume total weight to be 74kg and CRR .003. Very rough numbers. I suspect his CRR was slightly better, but I don't know.

With the same parameters, at 51km/h he probably came closer to 400watts. Based on Lionel's Zwift races I think people pegged him around there. I don't think there are too many surprises here.

In 2016 Lionel was measured as a 0.230. That was published by the Alphamantis guys here on ST.

Has his position changed that much ? That was full tri setup and bike.

So what has changed ? Is he that much more aero, is he more powerful ? What is the surprise here ?

I think people are truly impressed with how well he rode. Actually I'm not that surprised, I remember when filming "Chasing the Lion", on day 2 at the end he was quite good on the track. He adapted very quickly.

Are we really surprised at Lionel's ability to suffer through this ? I'm not. It's known to be one of his greatest assets.

Where is my logic flawed ?

there's aero, and then there's aero. if you look at a lot of pro cyclists in time trials - contador comes to mind as a very notable example during his career - they fidget constantly while aboard their aero bikes. so, aero when? at what snapshot point during the ride? what i like about lionel's position now is that it's a no-fidget posture. i think we saw that yesterday, and the hour is the prototypical race where you can't fidget. there was some upper body movement, when he was trying to get some english on the pedals, but his keister was nailed to the saddle, in one spot, the whole ride. this is (imho) the real world aerodynamics that is sometimes overlooked. if you've got 3 different positions on the bike, and you only display 1 to your aerodynamicist, you're fooling him and yourself, but you're not fooling the wind or the clock.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:


there's aero, and then there's aero. if you look at a lot of pro cyclists in time trials - contador comes to mind as a very notable example during his career - they fidget constantly while aboard their aero bikes. so, aero when? at what snapshot point during the ride? what i like about lionel's position now is that it's a no-fidget posture. i think we saw that yesterday, and the hour is the prototypical race where you can't fidget. there was some upper body movement, when he was trying to get some english on the pedals, but his keister was nailed to the saddle, in one spot, the whole ride. this is (imho) the real world aerodynamics that is sometimes overlooked. if you've got 3 different positions on the bike, and you only display 1 to your aerodynamicist, you're fooling him and yourself, but you're not fooling the wind or the clock.

thank you. That is an excellent point.

You posted old and new pics. Aside the obvious arm positions, what do you see that I don't ? When I say I don't, I'm blind as a bat on these things. I'm the guy where you need to find the 7 differences between two pictures and I can't find one.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
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iron_mike wrote:
kny wrote:
51.304km. This just barely beats Jens Voigt's first hour WR after the rules were reset back in 2014. Quite a far cry from current record of 55.089, but still one's got to be impressed that a triathlete with essentially no hours on the track and who trains indoors only can manage this distance. I'm not sure I need to spend an hour of my life watching it, though.


wow ... tough crowd.

I was being complimentary. Lionel beat Jens Voigt; that is impressive. Yes, he is far, far off the WR, but account for altitude and air density and that delta effectively halves. Again, impressive, especially for a triathlete with no track background.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [kny] [ In reply to ]
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kny wrote:
iron_mike wrote:
kny wrote:
51.304km. This just barely beats Jens Voigt's first hour WR after the rules were reset back in 2014. Quite a far cry from current record of 55.089, but still one's got to be impressed that a triathlete with essentially no hours on the track and who trains indoors only can manage this distance. I'm not sure I need to spend an hour of my life watching it, though.


wow ... tough crowd.


I was being complimentary. Lionel beat Jens Voigt; that is impressive. Yes, he is far, far off the WR, but account for altitude and air density and that delta effectively halves. Again, impressive, especially for a triathlete with no track background.

Literally 3 min after he was done in the interview that Fleck did Lionel says he wants to try again with proper prep and even try at altitude. He seemed to imply that he's not done with this hour after round one.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [kny] [ In reply to ]
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since this was mentioned in this thread, his 5k "PR" was done in what exact version of skecher shoes?
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag wrote:
Slowman wrote:


there's aero, and then there's aero. if you look at a lot of pro cyclists in time trials - contador comes to mind as a very notable example during his career - they fidget constantly while aboard their aero bikes. so, aero when? at what snapshot point during the ride? what i like about lionel's position now is that it's a no-fidget posture. i think we saw that yesterday, and the hour is the prototypical race where you can't fidget. there was some upper body movement, when he was trying to get some english on the pedals, but his keister was nailed to the saddle, in one spot, the whole ride. this is (imho) the real world aerodynamics that is sometimes overlooked. if you've got 3 different positions on the bike, and you only display 1 to your aerodynamicist, you're fooling him and yourself, but you're not fooling the wind or the clock.


thank you. That is an excellent point.

You posted old and new pics. Aside the obvious arm positions, what do you see that I don't ? When I say I don't, I'm blind as a bat on these things. I'm the guy where you need to find the 7 differences between two pictures and I can't find one.

two things have to match. that you have to get correct. hips position over the BB (seat angle); and cockpit distance (the distance from the saddle to the aerobars and extensions, most notably seen through the shoulder angle).

if your cockpit distance is correct, but your saddle is too slack, you'll move forward to correct the bad seat angle, but that cramps the cockpit. so, you push back. if your saddle is correctly positioned but your cockpit is too long, you'll creep forward until you correct the cockpit distance. but now your saddle is too far forward, and you push back. i have stuck the name "typewriter" onto this phenomenon, where - to fix either of these problems - the rider types, types types, carriage return; types, types, carriage return.

sometimes there are other reasons for fidgeting on the saddle. mostly, just an uncomfortable saddle. but if the saddle is more or less comfortable or at least livable, then you need to not only get the saddle position right, but the cockpit distance right. if you do, then you won't be moving constantly fore/aft. in the first image of lionel, the cockpit distance was too long, during that particular snapshot where he was caught by the camera. something was off. but if you watched him ride yesterday, nothing was off. really, over the last 18 months or so, he's looked pretty darned good on the bike. but never so good to my eye as he looked yesterday, and i hope this whole exercise, besides being a lot of fun for him, informs his road riding as well. now, his road bike position? during his lemmon climbs? that's a different story.

the one question i guess i would have is whether he applied for an ME, and which one? i would guess saddle nose? 1.3.013? this constrained his 1.3.023 to 75cm (it cropped his available cockpit position). i wonder if this was part of why he looked so compact. but he already looked pretty compact in his most recent tri bike rides over the past year.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:
since this was mentioned in this thread, his 5k "PR" was done in what exact version of skecher shoes?

Ugh, looks like Speed Elite...but just don't go there and let this rather impressive fall project shine for a bit.

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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No need to apply for an ME, you get one without question. I believe he was taking the reach exemption, which virtually everyone does when using a split-nose saddle. Even our shortest track and TT athletes, some of whom are barely scaping 5' tall, take the reach exemption, and take it all the way out to 80. No need not to do so.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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24 hours on - here's my thoughts.

I'm going to stay away from the technical discussion, the data, the numbers and leave all of that to those who are far more adept at this than I am.

As an an Announcer and Commentator, who works a fair number of top level races/events in a Calendar year in running, track & field, cycling and triathlon - from National Championships, to World Cups and World Championships, and the occasional National and sometimes World Record - What I had the pleasure of witnessing yesterday in person was one of those TRULY extraordinary and exceptional athletic performances!

Context as always is important Lionel had only been on the track and riding at this level of intensity 5 - 6 times. THIS is not his environment. It's NOT his space. Those that had done this before, and gone this far, have been World Class Road Cyclists and/or Track Specialists - who have spent may be hundreds of hours circling velodrome tracks, getting it all dialed in and nailed down!

Like many things that he has done - it's all a bit unorthodox and unusual - it's the Lionel way!

Before an effort like this, the warm-up is critical. World Class Pursuit Cyclists and Time-Trialers would spend probably about 45 minutes to an hour, riding the rollers and the trainer getting revved up and ready to go. Lionel showed up with about 15 - 20 minutes before the scheduled start time, chatted briefly with his Team, and the broadcast team, donned his skin suit, had his bike measured up by the Head UCI Commissaire one last time, and headed out on the track for what seemed to me like about a 10 min warm-up!! That's it!

Perhaps the BIGGEST concern of the day was the Start. According to UCI regs, he had to use the pneumatic Starting Block. He had only practiced using the Starting Block a few times. To push a 61 x 13 gear away, from this Starting Block is super tricky! I have seen World Class Track cyclists in the Pursuit and Team Sprint Starts, botch it up and fall flat on their face! Lionel wobbled a bit, but other than that, was able to pull away and get the bike up to a reasonable speed, in about a half a lap, and then settle in.

The first 10 - 15 mins is more important than many think. With the usual taper, a good warm-up, there is a tendency to feel like Superman in this time, and go out too hard. Lionel, showed amazing discipline, and patience and held back for the first number of laps, and it was not maybe until about the 5 min mark or a bit further in, that he was up to 51+ km/h. From then on, he was an absolute metronome, knocking out lap after lap within a couple of tenths of a second of each. We were following the lap times, but as you may have heard in the post-ride interview, they were meaningless to him - he wanted Kilometer splits, which Erin his wife was giving to him on a whiteboard!

I know there has been SO much discussion with his position, but to my less than expert eye - it actually looked pretty good. I was backed up by this afterwards by Cervelo Co-Founder, and now President of 4iiii, Phil White, who said he liked what he saw - still some work to be done - but overall, better, and not too bad! My co-commentator Ed Veal, the previous Canadian One Hour Record Holder, and himself a former top-ranked Pursuit rider (Bronze Medal in the Team Pursuit at the 2015 Pan Am Games), said Lionel was moving around a bit more than, he would have liked to have seen - but again, context, becomes key - 5 to 6 times on the track, and Lionel was pushing a much bigger gear, than others who have done this - so more body movement perhaps expected.

The time went by quickly, as I suspected it would, and suddenly we were at the 45 min mark, and Lionel was still knocking out the 17.5 sec laps, again, and again, and again! My thoughts were then, he's going to do this, and he was now after the third of his three goals (1. Break current record. 2. Go beyond 50km. 3. Surpass Jen's Voight's standard - the first of the new Unified UCI Records). The challenge with the bigger gear, lower RPM choice is you have zero wiggle room, when things start to go south on you, and when you can't stay on top of the gear, the blow-up comes, quickly!! But with each minute completed, past the 45 min mark, I felt more and more that we were going to be witnessing some history shortly!

Then he was past the Canadian Record and then past the 50km mark, and now the final count-down began . . . . and then the clock stopped and the distance was, a phenomenal 51.3 km! With the fixed gear it takes a lap or more to bring the bike back down to a pedestrian pace. Some who have done this, (The great Eddy Merckx) have had to be physically helped off the bike, or they have fallen off, or been left hanging on to the inside rail/fence of the track's infield - completely incapacitated. Lionel rolled around to the Start and Commentating location, hopped off the bike, himself and in the matter of a minute composed enough to do the interview that you all saw! Most world class riders ounce recovered, would have headed straight to the rollers for a warm-down. Lionel did no formal warm-down from what I saw. His only complaint to me, was when he walked down the stairs from the track to the infield, past where Ed and were working, he said "my quads are a bit sore"! :-)

There will probably lot's of talk and there already has bee, of, "What's next" In a three-way conversation that I had with Phil White and Ed Veal, shortly after we finished, given what we saw, and Lionel's lack of experience, some fine tuning of the position, and perhaps a trip to the Aquacalientes, Velodrome in Mexico, at altitude, and he could go much further! But again, context is key - next up is the PTO/Challenge Daytona race, where Lionel is going in, clearly in the absolute BEST bike/run fitness of his life and then the UCI eSports World Championships which will be raced on Zwift, where one hour FTP is King and Lionel just showed, absolutely that he's in the best shape of his life for One Hour Power/FTP!

Thank you to the true wizards behind this production - Talbot Cox (working remotely and from afar) and Greg McFadden (many don't know Greg at all, but you've all seen his outstanding camera work in Post IRONMAN Race Videos and from the IRONMAN World Championships).

Thank you to Canyon, Gatorade, Zwift, and Freshii for their partnership.

Thank you to my Co-Commentator Ed Veal - He is the Real Deal, and knows this kind of cycling inside out and it was particularly poignant, as the existing Record Holder to have him involved.

Finally thank you to everyone who did watch and for the many kind words and compliments that came my way. I felt a bit rusty, to be honest. It was particularly special for me, in this upside down year, as this, and last weekend's commentary for FloBikes of the Women's Tour of Flanders, were my first bits of real work in over 7 months! Hopefully we have started the long road back to some level of normalcy!

That's it for from me! Be well. Stay safe and stay healthy!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Last edited by: Fleck: Oct 24, 20 10:59
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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i don't know if it's hard for multisporters to give it all, or if it's just a function of how they're built. i got so tired of hearing how 650c wheels on were slow, that i had liz downing buy a USCF license (in 1990), i drove her out to moriarty, and she broke the women's 40km american women's national record by a minute and a half, in her first, last and only USCF race.

all the other riders, men, women, would literally get to the end, some of them, falling over, or needing someone to keep them upright while they dismounted. foaming. throwing up. looked like they were all dying. and lizzy crossed the finish, stopped, dismounted, and asked, "how'd i do?"

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [dfru] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
dfru wrote:
synthetic wrote:
since this was mentioned in this thread, his 5k "PR" was done in what exact version of skecher shoes?

Ugh, looks like Speed Elite...but just don't go there and let this rather impressive fall project shine for a bit.

I must, mechanical doping assist shoes speed you up 30-60 seconds in a 5k. So she adjusting time, he didn't PR, as you shouldn't with aging and a focus on long distance
Quote Reply
Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fleck wrote:
24 hours on - here's my thoughts.

I'm going to stay away from the technical discussion, the data, the numbers and leave all of that to those who are far more adept at this than I am.

As an an Announcer and Commentator, who works a fair number of top level races/events in a Calendar year in running, track & field, cycling and triathlon - from National Championships, to World Cups and World Championships, and the occasional National and sometimes World Record - What I had the pleasure of witnessing yesterday in person was one of those TRULY extraordinary and exceptional athletic performances!

Context as always is important Lionel had only been on the track and riding at this level of intensity 5 - 6 times. THIS is not his environment. It's NOT his space. Those that had done this before, and gone this far, have been World Class Road Cyclists and/or Track Specialists - who have spent may be hundreds of hours circling velodrome tracks, getting it all dialed in and nailed down!

Like many things that he has done - it's all a bit unorthodox and unusual - it's the Lionel way!

Before an effort like this, the warm-up is critical. World Class Pursuit Cyclists and Time-Trialers would spend probably about 45 minutes to an hour, riding the rollers and the trainer getting revved up and ready to go. Lionel showed up with about 15 - 20 minutes before the scheduled start time, chatted briefly with his Team, and the broadcast team, donned his skin suit, had his bike measured up by the Head UCI Commissaire one last time, and headed out on the track for what seemed to me like about a 10 min warm-up!! That's it!

Perhaps the BIGGEST concern of the day was the Start. According to UCI regs, he had to use the pneumatic Starting Block. He had only practiced using the Starting Block a few times. To push a 61 x 13 gear away, from this Starting Block is super tricky! I have seen World Class Track cyclists in the Pursuit and Team Sprint Starts, botch it up and fall flat on their face! Lionel wobbled a bit, but other than that, was able to pull away and get the bike up to a reasonable speed, in about a half a lap, and then settle in.

The first 10 - 15 mins is more important than many think. With the usual taper, a good warm-up, there is a tendency to feel like Superman in this time, and go out too hard. Lionel, showed amazing discipline, and patience and held back for the first number of laps, and it was not maybe until about the 5 min mark or a bit further in, that he was up to 51+ km/h. From then on, he was an absolute metronome, knocking out lap after lap within a couple of tenths of a second of each. We were following the lap times, but as you may have heard in the post-ride interview, they were meaningless to him - he wanted Kilometer splits, which Erin his wife was giving to him on a whiteboard!

I know there has been SO much discussion with his position, but to my less than expert eye - it actually looked pretty good. I was backed up by this afterwards by Cervelo Co-Founder, and now President of 4iiii, Phil White, who said he liked what he saw - still some work to be done - but overall, better, and not too bad! My co-commentator Ed Veal, the previous Canadian One Hour Record Holder, and himself a former top-ranked Pursuit rider (Bronze Medal in the Team Pursuit at the 2015 Pan Am Games), said Lionel was moving around a bit more than, he would have liked to have seen - but again, context, becomes key - 5 to 6 times on the track, and Lionel was pushing a much bigger gear, than others who have done this - so more body movement perhaps expected.

The time went by quickly, as I suspected it would, and suddenly we were at the 45 min mark, and Lionel was still knocking out the 17.5 sec laps, again, and again, and again! My thoughts were then, he's going to do this, and he was now after the third of his three goals (1. Break current record. 2. Go beyond 50km. 3. Surpass Jen's Voight's standard - the first of the new Unified UCI Records). The challenge with the bigger gear, lower RPM choice is you have zero wiggle room, when things start to go south on you, and when you can't stay on top of the gear, the blow-up comes, quickly!! But with each minute completed, past the 45 min mark, I felt more and more that we were going to be witnessing some history shortly!

Then he was past the Canadian Record and then past the 50km mark, and now the final count-down began . . . . and then the clock stopped and the distance was, a phenomenal 51.3 km! With the fixed gear it takes a lap or more to bring the bike back down to a pedestrian pace. Some who have done this, (The great Eddy Merckx) have had to be physically helped off the bike, or they have fallen off, or been left hanging on to the inside rail/fence of the track's infield - completely incapacitated. Lionel rolled around to the Start and Commentating location, hopped off the bike, himself and in the matter of a minute composed enough to do the interview that you all saw! Most world class riders ounce recovered, would have headed straight to the rollers for a warm-down. Lionel did no formal warm-down from what I saw. His only complaint to me, was when he walked down the stairs from the track to the infield, past where Ed and were working, he said "my quads are a bit sore"! :-)

There will probably lot's of talk and there already has bee, of, "What's next" In a three-way conversation that I had with Phil White and Ed Veal, shortly after we finished, given what we saw, and Lionel's lack of experience, some fine tuning of the position, and perhaps a trip to the Aquacalientes, Velodrome in Mexico, at altitude, and he could go much further! But again, context is key - next up is the PTO/Challenge Daytona race, where Lionel is going in, clearly in the absolute BEST bike/run fitness of his life and then the UCI eSports World Championships which will be raced on Zwift, where one hour FTP is King and Lionel just showed, absolutely that he's in the best shape of his life for One Hour Power/FTP!

Thank you to the true wizards behind this production - Talbot Cox (working remotely and from afar) and Greg McFadden (many don't know Greg at all, but you've all seen his outstanding camera work in Post IRONMAN Race Videos and from the IRONMAN World Championships).

Thank you to Canyon, Gatorade, Zwift, and Freshii for their partnership.

Thank you to my Co-Commentator Ed Veal - He is the Real Deal, and knows this kind of cycling inside out and it was particularly poignant, as the existing Record Holder to have him involved.

Finally thank you to everyone who did watch and for the many kind words and compliments that came my way. I felt a bit rusty, to be honest. It was particularly special for me, in this upside down year, as this, and last weekend's commentary for FloBikes of the Women's Tour of Flanders, were my first bits of real work in over 7 months! Hopefully we have started the long road back to some level of normalcy!

That's it for from me! Be well. Stay safe and stay healthy!


Fleck, I just wanted to provide a huge thanks for bringing to life the greatest FTP + self generated wind tunnel aero test in the history of ST.

20 years of Dan running this place and associated banter from posters all came together in the ultimate show.

now that Lionel has the Canadian, US and German hour records does this bait some other tri studs out to give it a whirl....like Sebi?
Last edited by: devashish_paul: Oct 24, 20 13:53
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
i don't know if it's hard for multisporters to give it all


Swim and bike . . . probably not. We are kind of programed to NOT go there.

We talked about this a bit in the Broadcast. Top cyclists will ride the bike, to collapse, but a triathlete would never do that! Always be in control, and leave a bit in the tank - I have to run after this!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fleck wrote:
i don't know if it's hard for multisporters to give it all


Swim and bike . . . probably not. We are kind of programed to NOT go there.

We talked about this a bit in the Broadcast. Top cyclists will ride the bike, to collapse, but a triathlete would never do that! Always be in control, and leave a bit in the tank - I have to run after this!

You mean for something like this?


Quote Reply
Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
now that Lionel has the Canadian, US and German hour records does this bate some other tri studs out to give it a whirl....like Sebi?


Good question. It might start a flurry. Who knows. Ed Veal told me that he heard that Victor Campernearts is possibly going back to Aquacaliente this winter to have another go at it. Fillipo Ganna, has certainly shown some phenomenal TT performances - at the UCI World Championships and at the Giro. Ditto for Rohan Dennis - he's in phenomenal shape right now. Did you see him in the last two Stages!

As for other triathletes having a go at this and other Canadians - this is NOT an inexpensive or easy logistical thing to go after. Lionel had the financial resources, and the backing of several key sponsors to do this. Of course, Lionel took a completely unorthodox approach to this, but I would think, you would want to allocate at a minimum 2 - 4 months of training and time to something like this for a proper prep - setting all other racing, and other training aside, to specifically train for an hour record attempt.

For the time being Lionel owns the Canadian Record, the 16th Fastest Time, All-Time in the Unified UCI Rules, and Bragging Rights, as the Best Active Triathlete in the World, at the One Hour on the Track.

It does beg the question - of the current crop of top active triathletes, who are known for their cycling fitness/speed . .

- Keinle
- Starkeweiz
- Wurf (although now back in Pro Cycling)
- Frodeno
- Others?

. . . what could they do in a One Hour attempt, like Lionel just did?


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Quote Reply
Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
synthetic wrote:
dfru wrote:
synthetic wrote:
since this was mentioned in this thread, his 5k "PR" was done in what exact version of skecher shoes?


Ugh, looks like Speed Elite...but just don't go there and let this rather impressive fall project shine for a bit.


I must, mechanical doping assist shoes speed you up 30-60 seconds in a 5k. So she adjusting time, he didn't PR, as you shouldn't with aging and a focus on long distance

He's 32. He's not 40. And the skechers shoes don't even have a full plate. Much less foam than other shoes too.

I quite enjoyed the pursuits of both of his projects, and I guess it just gets old every time I open a thread with some positive news and see something about shoes and am not surprised with who wrote said comment. Anyways, whatever floats your boat.

Congrats to Lionel for his incredible hard work, striving for his personal bests and constant improvement, and providing inspiration. I know it's been inspiring to me the past month for sure. And to his team - LS is most definitely on the right path for continued success!

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
Quote Reply
Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fleck wrote:
now that Lionel has the Canadian, US and German hour records does this bate some other tri studs out to give it a whirl....like Sebi?


Good question. It might start a flurry. Who knows. Ed Veal told me that he heard that Victor Campernearts is possibly going back to Aquacaliente this winter to have another go at it. Fillipo Ganna, has certainly shown some phenomenal TT performances - at the UCI World Championships and at the Giro. Ditto for Rohan Dennis - he's in phenomenal shape right now. Did you see him in the last two Stages!

As for other triathletes having a go at this and other Canadians - this is NOT an inexpensive or easy logistical thing to go after. Lionel had the financial resources, and the backing of several key sponsors to do this. Of course, Lionel took a completely unorthodox approach to this, but I would think, you would want to allocate at a minimum 2 - 4 months of training and time to something like this for a proper prep - setting all other racing, and other training aside, to specifically train for an hour record attempt.

For the time being Lionel owns the Canadian Record, the 16th Fastest Time, All-Time in the Unified UCI Rules, and Bragging Rights, as the Best Active Triathlete in the World, at the One Hour on the Track.

It does beg the question - of the current crop of top active triathletes, who are known for their cycling fitness/speed . .

- Keinle
- Starkeweiz
- Wurf (although now back in Pro Cycling)
- Frodeno

- Others?

. . . what could they do in a One Hour attempt, like Lionel just did?

I don't think any of them would beat Lionel. Even Wurf. Sebi maybe given his aeroness. I think the swim takes more out of Lionel than Wurf which is why Wurf outbikes him when fresh, but that's just my hunch watching the two swim. Lionel looks like his is fighting the water more than almost all pros, so he enters T1 more depleted from the swim. But straight up watts on the bike, Lionel is KING. And he nailed the pacing and stayed aero the entire time. Sebi likely more aero and could go as fast off less energy. That's my wild guess. But maybe it baits Wurf into giving it a go.
Quote Reply
Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
devashish_paul wrote:
now that Lionel has the Canadian, US and German hour records does this bait some other tri studs out to give it a whirl....like Sebi?

i would like to see jordan try it. i would get behind that. jordan has a very big bike engine, an awful lot of velodrome miles, and a lot of top end speed (pursuit) training on the velodrome, and the discipline to stick to a very tight position. he may not have been the absolute uberbike king, but i think he has a unique set of assets that lend itself to this kind of effort.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Truly an enjoyable event that you hosted and it was nice to see Lionel get the Canadian record. Here's a write up from Romingers 1994 record, and he like Lionel had very little track riding experience. The article quotes 8 hours of total track practice, before he went 55.291 km/hr. He used aero bars, double discs, and a round tube non aero frameset.

https://www.nytimes.com/...-cycling-mark.html#:~:text=When%20Rominger%20set%20off%20Saturday,hours'%20experience%20on%20the%20boards.
Last edited by: wetswimmer99: Oct 24, 20 16:15
Quote Reply
Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
synthetic wrote:
I must, mechanical doping assist shoes speed you up 30-60 seconds in a 5k. So she adjusting time, he didn't PR, as you shouldn't with aging and a focus on long distance

Fuck off. This thread isn't even about running, and that unrelated 5k was just a personal fun run. It's not taking anyone else's record.

Would it make you feel better if I kept a pre-P5 bike split PR and post P5 PR, since the P5 is faster than my old tri bike was? Would that help you sleep better after seeing the horror or carbon-plated runs on YouTube?
Quote Reply
Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
now that Lionel has the Canadian, US and German hour records does this bait some other tri studs out to give it a whirl....like Sebi?


i would like to see jordan try it. i would get behind that. jordan has a very big bike engine, an awful lot of velodrome miles, and a lot of top end speed (pursuit) training on the velodrome, and the discipline to stick to a very tight position. he may not have been the absolute uberbike king, but i think he has a unique set of assets that lend itself to this kind of effort.

With the CDA numbers Jordan published it's not hard to figure out how many fewer watts he would need. And I have no doubt he could produce them.

I hope he gives it a try.
Quote Reply
Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BigBoyND wrote:
synthetic wrote:

I must, mechanical doping assist shoes speed you up 30-60 seconds in a 5k. So she adjusting time, he didn't PR, as you shouldn't with aging and a focus on long distance


Fuck off. This thread isn't even about running, and that unrelated 5k was just a personal fun run. It's not taking anyone else's record.

Would it make you feel better if I kept a pre-P5 bike split PR and post P5 PR, since the P5 is faster than my old tri bike was? Would that help you sleep better after seeing the horror or carbon-plated runs on YouTube?

yes. this is important. take a look at the Merckx (UCI hour) record if you want to stay on the bike topic. hasnt moved in a while
Quote Reply
Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
synthetic wrote:
BigBoyND wrote:
synthetic wrote:

I must, mechanical doping assist shoes speed you up 30-60 seconds in a 5k. So she adjusting time, he didn't PR, as you shouldn't with aging and a focus on long distance


Fuck off. This thread isn't even about running, and that unrelated 5k was just a personal fun run. It's not taking anyone else's record.

Would it make you feel better if I kept a pre-P5 bike split PR and post P5 PR, since the P5 is faster than my old tri bike was? Would that help you sleep better after seeing the horror or carbon-plated runs on YouTube?


yes. this is important. take a look at the Merckx (UCI hour) record if you want to stay on the bike topic. hasnt moved in a while

Simple searching of your blog shows all the hypocrisy of your posting on the shoes. Give it up - give it up for people putting themselves out there - testing their limits, being positive and inspiring, and the fact that technology changes things for the better (your swim, for instance).

It's super easy to be a keyboard warrior - but honestly Lionel is out there doing things the best he can, and we don't need to come in here and crap on it (or every other thread involving running) and leave a bad taste in people's mouth.

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [dfru] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I've never understood the purpose any of synthetic's posts, except for being a troll. His arguments are weak at best. He doesn't contribute anything meaningful to the forum. Just ignore him, which I could just block his posts.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [hubcaps] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
 which I could just block his posts.[/quote]
You can, click on the user' name and click hide posts.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [dirtbag] [ In reply to ]
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typo wish and which.

But not seeing that when I click on name.
Quote Reply
Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
synthetic wrote:
BigBoyND wrote:
synthetic wrote:

I must, mechanical doping assist shoes speed you up 30-60 seconds in a 5k. So she adjusting time, he didn't PR, as you shouldn't with aging and a focus on long distance


Fuck off. This thread isn't even about running, and that unrelated 5k was just a personal fun run. It's not taking anyone else's record.

Would it make you feel better if I kept a pre-P5 bike split PR and post P5 PR, since the P5 is faster than my old tri bike was? Would that help you sleep better after seeing the horror or carbon-plated runs on YouTube?


yes. this is important. take a look at the Merckx (UCI hour) record if you want to stay on the bike topic. hasnt moved in a while


The only reason the Merckx record has not moved is because it is a dead record. No official attempts are recorded. Cancellara would have broken it most likely had it not been unified in 2014

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
Quote Reply
Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
now that Lionel has the Canadian, US and German hour records does this bait some other tri studs out to give it a whirl....like Sebi?


i would like to see jordan try it. i would get behind that. jordan has a very big bike engine, an awful lot of velodrome miles, and a lot of top end speed (pursuit) training on the velodrome, and the discipline to stick to a very tight position. he may not have been the absolute uberbike king, but i think he has a unique set of assets that lend itself to this kind of effort.


Well based on how Rapp was talking on this thread maybe he changes his mind and dives in.

Related note since we were talking cadence before this and Rapp participated, Alex Dowsett is riding at 94 RPM in the final Giro ITT. That TT has Brandle, Dennis, Dowsett and Campanaerts, four hour record holders. Ganna to come too. The only guy in that set who is ahead of Lionel who is not TTing this weekend is Wiggins. Imagine if we could put Lionel in Milan today

Edit: Ganna on the road, he has not dropped below 500W and is riding at 104 RPM
Last edited by: devashish_paul: Oct 25, 20 7:00
Quote Reply
Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
devashish_paul wrote:
Well based on how Rapp was talking on this thread maybe he changes his mind and dives in.

We need to sponsor him for Canadian citizenship since the US record is 53 and change.

The ST hour record is even higher :-)

I hope some of the Canadian pro tour guys give it a try. Some of them could definitely do it if they hurry up before Lionel does it again.
Quote Reply
Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fleck wrote:
24 hours on - here's my thoughts.

I'm going to stay away from the technical discussion, the data, the numbers and leave all of that to those who are far more adept at this than I am.

As an an Announcer and Commentator, who works a fair number of top level races/events in a Calendar year in running, track & field, cycling and triathlon - from National Championships, to World Cups and World Championships, and the occasional National and sometimes World Record - What I had the pleasure of witnessing yesterday in person was one of those TRULY extraordinary and exceptional athletic performances!

Context as always is important Lionel had only been on the track and riding at this level of intensity 5 - 6 times. THIS is not his environment. It's NOT his space. Those that had done this before, and gone this far, have been World Class Road Cyclists and/or Track Specialists - who have spent may be hundreds of hours circling velodrome tracks, getting it all dialed in and nailed down!

Like many things that he has done - it's all a bit unorthodox and unusual - it's the Lionel way!

Before an effort like this, the warm-up is critical. World Class Pursuit Cyclists and Time-Trialers would spend probably about 45 minutes to an hour, riding the rollers and the trainer getting revved up and ready to go. Lionel showed up with about 15 - 20 minutes before the scheduled start time, chatted briefly with his Team, and the broadcast team, donned his skin suit, had his bike measured up by the Head UCI Commissaire one last time, and headed out on the track for what seemed to me like about a 10 min warm-up!! That's it!

Perhaps the BIGGEST concern of the day was the Start. According to UCI regs, he had to use the pneumatic Starting Block. He had only practiced using the Starting Block a few times. To push a 61 x 13 gear away, from this Starting Block is super tricky! I have seen World Class Track cyclists in the Pursuit and Team Sprint Starts, botch it up and fall flat on their face! Lionel wobbled a bit, but other than that, was able to pull away and get the bike up to a reasonable speed, in about a half a lap, and then settle in.

The first 10 - 15 mins is more important than many think. With the usual taper, a good warm-up, there is a tendency to feel like Superman in this time, and go out too hard. Lionel, showed amazing discipline, and patience and held back for the first number of laps, and it was not maybe until about the 5 min mark or a bit further in, that he was up to 51+ km/h. From then on, he was an absolute metronome, knocking out lap after lap within a couple of tenths of a second of each. We were following the lap times, but as you may have heard in the post-ride interview, they were meaningless to him - he wanted Kilometer splits, which Erin his wife was giving to him on a whiteboard!

I know there has been SO much discussion with his position, but to my less than expert eye - it actually looked pretty good. I was backed up by this afterwards by Cervelo Co-Founder, and now President of 4iiii, Phil White, who said he liked what he saw - still some work to be done - but overall, better, and not too bad! My co-commentator Ed Veal, the previous Canadian One Hour Record Holder, and himself a former top-ranked Pursuit rider (Bronze Medal in the Team Pursuit at the 2015 Pan Am Games), said Lionel was moving around a bit more than, he would have liked to have seen - but again, context, becomes key - 5 to 6 times on the track, and Lionel was pushing a much bigger gear, than others who have done this - so more body movement perhaps expected.

The time went by quickly, as I suspected it would, and suddenly we were at the 45 min mark, and Lionel was still knocking out the 17.5 sec laps, again, and again, and again! My thoughts were then, he's going to do this, and he was now after the third of his three goals (1. Break current record. 2. Go beyond 50km. 3. Surpass Jen's Voight's standard - the first of the new Unified UCI Records). The challenge with the bigger gear, lower RPM choice is you have zero wiggle room, when things start to go south on you, and when you can't stay on top of the gear, the blow-up comes, quickly!! But with each minute completed, past the 45 min mark, I felt more and more that we were going to be witnessing some history shortly!

Then he was past the Canadian Record and then past the 50km mark, and now the final count-down began . . . . and then the clock stopped and the distance was, a phenomenal 51.3 km! With the fixed gear it takes a lap or more to bring the bike back down to a pedestrian pace. Some who have done this, (The great Eddy Merckx) have had to be physically helped off the bike, or they have fallen off, or been left hanging on to the inside rail/fence of the track's infield - completely incapacitated. Lionel rolled around to the Start and Commentating location, hopped off the bike, himself and in the matter of a minute composed enough to do the interview that you all saw! Most world class riders ounce recovered, would have headed straight to the rollers for a warm-down. Lionel did no formal warm-down from what I saw. His only complaint to me, was when he walked down the stairs from the track to the infield, past where Ed and were working, he said "my quads are a bit sore"! :-)

There will probably lot's of talk and there already has bee, of, "What's next" In a three-way conversation that I had with Phil White and Ed Veal, shortly after we finished, given what we saw, and Lionel's lack of experience, some fine tuning of the position, and perhaps a trip to the Aquacalientes, Velodrome in Mexico, at altitude, and he could go much further! But again, context is key - next up is the PTO/Challenge Daytona race, where Lionel is going in, clearly in the absolute BEST bike/run fitness of his life and then the UCI eSports World Championships which will be raced on Zwift, where one hour FTP is King and Lionel just showed, absolutely that he's in the best shape of his life for One Hour Power/FTP!

Thank you to the true wizards behind this production - Talbot Cox (working remotely and from afar) and Greg McFadden (many don't know Greg at all, but you've all seen his outstanding camera work in Post IRONMAN Race Videos and from the IRONMAN World Championships).

Thank you to Canyon, Gatorade, Zwift, and Freshii for their partnership.

Thank you to my Co-Commentator Ed Veal - He is the Real Deal, and knows this kind of cycling inside out and it was particularly poignant, as the existing Record Holder to have him involved.

Finally thank you to everyone who did watch and for the many kind words and compliments that came my way. I felt a bit rusty, to be honest. It was particularly special for me, in this upside down year, as this, and last weekend's commentary for FloBikes of the Women's Tour of Flanders, were my first bits of real work in over 7 months! Hopefully we have started the long road back to some level of normalcy!

That's it for from me! Be well. Stay safe and stay healthy!

Funniest part was how you kept saying he looks good, and Veal would jump in and say wellllll I wouldn't say he looks good....but it works for him. Lol.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:

Well based on how Rapp was talking on this thread maybe he changes his mind and dives in.


We need to sponsor him for Canadian citizenship since the US record is 53 and change.

The ST hour record is even higher :-)

I hope some of the Canadian pro tour guys give it a try. Some of them could definitely do it if they hurry up before Lionel does it again.

Interesting that Tao while winning the Giro was riding at Lionel-esque RPM. Around 90 for the Maglia Rosa. As for the Canadian protour guys hurring up to beat Lionel's time before he beats his own, let's keep in mind Lionel is only 1.2km behind Rohan Dennis' distance already. So they have their work cut out. Sorry I missed Zirbel's 53.037 for USA. I was just looking at world hour record holders. Does Jens Voigt still have the German record?
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Boundless] [ In reply to ]
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Funniest part was how you kept saying he looks good, and Veal would jump in and say wellllll I wouldn't say he looks good....but it works for him. Lol.


I was saying "he looks good" balancing, how I have seen him positioned and riding in the past (Honestly he has looked rough - almost doing battle with the bike - Friday was very different and a HUGE improvement), and his incredibly consistent pacing. That was truly a revelation and amazing. He just kept knocking out those 17.5 sec laps with a .1 variation one way or the other! Ed WAS more critical - but he was bringing the view of a former World Class Pursuit rider!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Someone said this is the 6th fastest ever, is that true?

Could he be faster with a few tweaks?
- no running prs the week before
- altitude track
- practising holding the black line

Its tempting to say pretty awesome for a triathlete (or canadian) but its just straight out awesome
Last edited by: lacticturkey: Oct 25, 20 14:14
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [lacticturkey] [ In reply to ]
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21st fastest on a track bike, 14th fastest per the 2014+ rules.
- Credit Mike Mowett whose spreadsheet covers all hour attempts (from amateur / velodrome records to Pro to Recumbent)

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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I wonder what this effort would translate to in Aguascalientes. Does anyone have an educated guess, all else being equal?
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [dirtbag] [ In reply to ]
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The block function might be the best feature on ST. Seriously.

Formerly DrD
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Watched it this morning for part of my trainer ride. Fleck and Veal did a great job keeping it interesting. Well put together production. This event is right in Lionel’s wheelhouse. That man can suffer in solitude!

Let food be thy medicine...
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:
Funniest part was how you kept saying he looks good, and Veal would jump in and say wellllll I wouldn't say he looks good....but it works for him. Lol.


I was saying "he looks good" balancing, how I have seen him positioned and riding in the past (Honestly he has looked rough - almost doing battle with the bike - Friday was very different and a HUGE improvement), and his incredibly consistent pacing. That was truly a revelation and amazing. He just kept knocking out those 17.5 sec laps with a .1 variation one way or the other! Ed WAS more critical - but he was bringing the view of a former World Class Pursuit rider!

Yes good is relative. He looked better.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]
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BigBoyND wrote:
I wonder what this effort would translate to in Aguascalientes. Does anyone have an educated guess, all else being equal?

Martin (MTM) did 52.32 in Copenhagen, and then not terribly long after (~6mo) did 53.63 at Aguas. It's not 1-1, but with what others have seen going to Aguas you would probably be expecting 1 - 1 1/2 kilometer net gain.

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]
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BigBoyND wrote:
I wonder what this effort would translate to in Aguascalientes. Does anyone have an educated guess, all else being equal?

The assumption is that after an adaptation period, you can put out as much wattage at altitude as at sea level, but depending on the person you may or may not, so I don't think there is any proper answer, because wattage may decay or be close to identical. But let's assume wattage is identical, I would like to know the same answer.

It would be crazy to see what Ganna can do at altitude. He beat Campanaerts by 32 seconds today on 17.5 minutes and Campanaerts holds the record at Aguascalientes at >55 kph.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Is that an assumption anyone other than you has made, that watts are the same at altitude? I am going to say not a chance, especially at high alt like Aguascalientes.

The decrease in watts is expected to be more than made up for by the significant decrease in air density. Thus faster times.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [altayloraus] [ In reply to ]
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altayloraus wrote:
Is that an assumption anyone other than you has made, that watts are the same at altitude? I am going to say not a chance, especially at high alt like Aguascalientes.

.


There is a paper from Bassett out there that gives actual numbers
Here is a TP summary of the discussion https://www.trainingpeaks.com/...-racing-at-altitude/

Drop in power is easily made up by drop in air density but it is variable from person to person. As well, how much you can compensate by acclimatization varies from person to person.

I see numbers like an air density of .975 in Aquascalientes. If true, power to overcome aero would be .975/1.16 or 84%. The 1.16 is based on what I see in environment Canada's database so may be slightly off.

Best would be to find a Colombian born and raised at altitude to do it :-)
Last edited by: marcag: Oct 26, 20 3:41
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag wrote:

If a 380 watts "budget" gave 50km/h, knowing air density would be around 1.16, we can work backwards to a CDA of .225. I assume total weight to be 74kg and CRR .003. Very rough numbers. I suspect his CRR was slightly better, but I don't know.

With the same parameters, at 51km/h he probably came closer to 400watts. Based on Lionel's Zwift races I think people pegged him around there. I don't think there are too many surprises here.

In 2016 Lionel was measured as a 0.230. That was published by the Alphamantis guys here on ST.

Has his position changed that much ? That was full tri setup and bike.

From my calculator, assuming 22Celsius and 760mmHg, and Cf/Cr near from other track performances :

380w for 50km/h : CdA is probably very near to 0,21

This is coherent with CdA of 0,23 with Tri bike and older position, but not very good.
Dowsett on the same bike during his HR was apparently around 0,175

CdA 0,21 at 51.3 km/h will then need 407 watts (all other parameters unchanged).

If LS was capable to push this power (407w) with a 0,18 CdA (nearly Dowsett), it will goes up to 53,8 km :-) (again, all other parameters unchanged).
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]
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Pyrenean Wolf wrote:
marcag wrote:

If a 380 watts "budget" gave 50km/h, knowing air density would be around 1.16, we can work backwards to a CDA of .225. I assume total weight to be 74kg and CRR .003. Very rough numbers. I suspect his CRR was slightly better, but I don't know.

With the same parameters, at 51km/h he probably came closer to 400watts. Based on Lionel's Zwift races I think people pegged him around there. I don't think there are too many surprises here.

In 2016 Lionel was measured as a 0.230. That was published by the Alphamantis guys here on ST.

Has his position changed that much ? That was full tri setup and bike.


From my calculator, assuming 22Celsius and 760mmHg, and Cf/Cr near from other track performances :

380w for 50km/h : CdA is probably very near to 0,21

This is coherent with CdA of 0,23 with Tri bike and older position, but not very good.
Dowsett on the same bike during his HR was apparently around 0,175

CdA 0,21 at 51.3 km/h will then need 407 watts (all other parameters unchanged).

If LS was capable to push this power (407w) with a 0,18 CdA (nearly Dowsett), it will goes up to 53,8 km :-) (again, all other parameters unchanged).


Your numbers are certainly more accurate as I don't know what a good CRR is for a track bike I assumed .003 which is high. I also assume power at the wheel since I don't know what a good efficiency factor for one of these should be. What should be used ?

Temperature was 27 deg I believe.DTD made a comment of them upping the temperature, but I can't find it anymore. Humidity was pretty high. Your barometric pressure is high as per environment Canada (100.28pka), so I suspect your air density is a little high
Last edited by: marcag: Oct 26, 20 5:38
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [altayloraus] [ In reply to ]
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altayloraus wrote:
Is that an assumption anyone other than you has made, that watts are the same at altitude? I am going to say not a chance, especially at high alt like Aguascalientes.

The decrease in watts is expected to be more than made up for by the significant decrease in air density. Thus faster times.

Maybe you misunderstood what I wrote. Of course most of us will never adapt to the point that we can replicate our sea level output at altitude. This will vary person to person. But if Lionel (or someone who put out the same number at sea level), gets to the same number at altitude, what is the distance. It is of course hypothetical. It was not neccessary to come back with a put down and make it personal.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
altayloraus wrote:
Is that an assumption anyone other than you has made, that watts are the same at altitude? I am going to say not a chance, especially at high alt like Aguascalientes.

The decrease in watts is expected to be more than made up for by the significant decrease in air density. Thus faster times.


Maybe you misunderstood what I wrote. Of course most of us will never adapt to the point that we can replicate our sea level output at altitude. This will vary person to person. But if Lionel (or someone who put out the same number at sea level), gets to the same number at altitude, what is the distance. It is of course hypothetical. It was not neccessary to come back with a put down and make it personal.


Chris posted a good article
Here is an article with the math of Dowsett and Wiggins at altitude
https://www.shopforwatts.co.uk/...t-hour-record-take-2

But this is kind of like heat acclimatization. Saying someone could acclimatize to perform the same at 34deg than 21 is not very likely. But a Gomez has a better shot at it than a Brownlee :-)

I know very little about how to acclimatize. I do know this however. A friend of mine is a WT coach. We talked about this at the tour of Columbia last year. He explained to me his rule of thumb. He says when not acclimatized they use 80% of targets, some people move to 95%, some never get passed 85%. The Columbians get to 95% very quickly. They know how well each athlete adapts from experience.

Above I showed the air density/watts number of 84%. You see that a person that can't adapt has no advantage. But I suspect MOST get beyond 85%.

Others that have been through this may be able to add more real world experience. MTM has done it, would be great to hear from him
Last edited by: marcag: Oct 26, 20 6:25
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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I did a raw test on my performance at altitude at a fixed wattage based on sea level acclimatization only 5 years ago. I knew I can hold 225W for an entire half IM course (I did that at 70.3 Muskoka 5 weeks earlier), so I set out from Bormio Italy pegged at 225W to the Stelvio Summit to watch the perceived exertion going from 5000 ft above sea level up to 8700. By 6000 ft, 225W felt like I was in an Olympic tri, not a half IM, by 7000 feet, it felt like a 100% FTP test, and by 8000 ft it felt like I was in a 15km ITT, and above 8500 it felt like I was in a 1km standalone event. the entire time my wattage was at an "easy" Half IM race pace.

I did this as a test 3 weeks out from Ironman Lake Tahoe to understand how much I needed to derate my target wattage at 6400 ft to 7700 ft and decided that I had to assume my 6800 ft FTP was roughly 225W and I then used this to figure out my target watts at IM Tahoe. This worked perfectly. Had I used 265W I would have been walking all of IM Tahoe (and I only went up to altitude the day before the race).

I could have used some textbook math to decide how much to derate, but I had the opp to see how things would shake out through altitude ranges on a relatively easy wattage from sea level.

It would be interesting to know what wattage Victor used in Mexico vs his sea level FTP for his 55 kph after adaptation.
Last edited by: devashish_paul: Oct 26, 20 6:42
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
It would be interesting to know what wattage Victor used in Mexico vs his sea level FTP for his 55 kph after adaptation.

330 seems to be quoted a lot
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not sure how I can misunderstood what you wrote:

"The assumption is that after an adaptation period, you can put out as much wattage at altitude as at sea level,"

As the several posts above note, it's an out of this world assumption that anyone is going to adapt to 100% at Mexico City, or Aguascalientes, or Colorado Springs. Not 'not most people'. Anyone.


You've been around this game long enough to know the effects of altitude - you come from a country that has decent size mountains, unlike either of the countries I have lived in - and you have been an endurance athlete for longer than I have.


A realistic hypothetical could have been: If Lionel put out n watts at sea level, how far would he have gone at altitude x/y/z given the known density of air at each location.


Great ride, but.


Still reckon he'd have been substantially behind Dennis, Brandle, and Campanerts in Milan yesterday though.



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Post deleted by Fleck [ In reply to ]
Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:
Phil also had a careful look over the bike and there were a number of things that he saw - that I'm not at liberty to discuss.

i don't what what the secret is. this is the point of sponsorship. you promote the equipment. you can't promote it if you keep it a secret.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:

It would be interesting to know what wattage Victor used in Mexico vs his sea level FTP for his 55 kph after adaptation.


330 seems to be quoted a lot

From my calculator, 330 or 320 watts

To be compared with a sea level FTP around 380 watts
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [altayloraus] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe I was unclear then and I see how you could have read it....maybe I should have said, "if the hypothetical assumption is you put out the same watts, what's the speed you get at altitude. and of course you will never get to that wattage, but if you did what would the speed be".

It could be a completely different person with the same CdA as Lionel who happens to put out as many watts as Lionel did but can do that at altitude (because his starting point at sea levell is better). I just wanted to get too, "how fast does Lionel's sea level watts get us at altitude"

Maybe that is Ganna who can do Lionel watts at altitude, but Ganna would probably punch a bigger hole in the wind.

Sorry for the confusion. This just turned into an internet misunderstanding. Have a look at my next post further up too where I tested through an alitude gradient (Stelvio) and then raced at the mid altitude (Tahoe) from my testing.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:

It would be interesting to know what wattage Victor used in Mexico vs his sea level FTP for his 55 kph after adaptation.


330 seems to be quoted a lot

I believe Dan Bigham calculated it to be something like 342 or 346W, I took a screenshot of his Instagram story when he posted it but I can't find it anymore..
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Tri_Joeri] [ In reply to ]
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Tri_Joeri wrote:
marcag wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:

It would be interesting to know what wattage Victor used in Mexico vs his sea level FTP for his 55 kph after adaptation.


330 seems to be quoted a lot


I believe Dan Bigham calculated it to be something like 342 or 346W, I took a screenshot of his Instagram story when he posted it but I can't find it anymore..

Interesting.
I guess Dan made a very detailed calculation knowing exact pressure and possibly exact CdA.

Let's make some projections :

If I adjust my model for Campenaerts (Mexico) with 51.1km/h at 342watts (27Celsius, 630 mmHg, CdA 0,171) :

Going back to sea level (760 mmHg), assuming 380 watt FTP (all other elements unchanged), he would deliver 53.9 km/h.

So, going from sea level to 2000m, roughly :

1) Campenaerts only delivered 90% of the power he can deliver on same duration at sea level (342 vs 380 watts)
2) still, pressure being only 83% (630 vs 760 mmHg)
3) this lead to 1.2km more distance (2.22% more) with 55.1 instead of 53.9 km
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]
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Pyrenean Wolf wrote:
1) Campenaerts only delivered 90% of the power he can deliver on same duration at sea level (342 vs 380 watts)

Do you know his FTP was 380 ? I saw a presentation where he was 380 at one point and 398 at another. Did he say he was 380 when he did the attempt ?
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag wrote:
Pyrenean Wolf wrote:

1) Campenaerts only delivered 90% of the power he can deliver on same duration at sea level (342 vs 380 watts)


Do you know his FTP was 380 ? I saw a presentation where he was 380 at one point and 398 at another. Did he say he was 380 when he did the attempt ?

This is only a personal rough evaluation.
More precisely, I would say near 385w, based on the fact he did 399w NP over 30mn on last Euro TT (3rd), vs 412w for Dowsett (4th).

But of course, this change nearly every day.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]
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Pyrenean Wolf wrote:
marcag wrote:
Pyrenean Wolf wrote:

1) Campenaerts only delivered 90% of the power he can deliver on same duration at sea level (342 vs 380 watts)


Do you know his FTP was 380 ? I saw a presentation where he was 380 at one point and 398 at another. Did he say he was 380 when he did the attempt ?


This is only a personal rough evaluation.
More precisely, I would say near 385w, based on the fact he did 399w NP over 30mn on last Euro TT (3rd), vs 412w for Dowsett (4th).

But of course, this change nearly every day.


You may find this interesting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_e2RabmGues

You will need to rewind to 0 for the whole thing
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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I wanted to link to that one too haha, nice one! I seem to recall he stated there that his FTP was just over 400W, around 410W because of the gains he made with the altitude tent experiment?

@Pyrenean Wolf: I sent Dan Bigham a message and the +-340W was his estimate before the hour record attempt happened, the 320-330W was what he calculated after the attempt when he had a better idea about the conditions there so you were right :)

He also told me what John Archibald's CdA is and what he would need at Aguas Calientes, and how much % of FTP John looses in the altitude experiments they've done. I think it will be really interesting once they make their attempts :)
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Tri_Joeri] [ In reply to ]
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Tri_Joeri wrote:
I wanted to link to that one too haha, nice one! I seem to recall he stated there that his FTP was just over 400W, around 410W because of the gains he made with the altitude tent experiment?

@Pyrenean Wolf: I sent Dan Bigham a message and the +-340W was his estimate before the hour record attempt happened, the 320-330W was what he calculated after the attempt when he had a better idea about the conditions there so you were right :)

He also told me what John Archibald's CdA is and what he would need at Aguas Calientes, and how much % of FTP John looses in the altitude experiments they've done. I think it will be really interesting once they make their attempts :)

So, I need to guess Archibald CdA :-)

I think Dan Bigham track CdA was 0,168 in 2018.
I guess Archibald is a bit taller, so I would say for track CdA : 0.17 or 0.172 ?

So, to beat Campenaerts record in HotWater (Aquacalientes...) he probably need 335w ?
Not sure what is his sea level FTP however. Probably not too far from 400w :-)
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]
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Pyrenean Wolf wrote:
Tri_Joeri wrote:
I wanted to link to that one too haha, nice one! I seem to recall he stated there that his FTP was just over 400W, around 410W because of the gains he made with the altitude tent experiment?

@Pyrenean Wolf: I sent Dan Bigham a message and the +-340W was his estimate before the hour record attempt happened, the 320-330W was what he calculated after the attempt when he had a better idea about the conditions there so you were right :)

He also told me what John Archibald's CdA is and what he would need at Aguas Calientes, and how much % of FTP John looses in the altitude experiments they've done. I think it will be really interesting once they make their attempts :)


So, I need to guess Archibald CdA :-)

I think Dan Bigham track CdA was 0,168 in 2018.
I guess Archibald is a bit taller, so I would say for track CdA : 0.17 or 0.172 ?

So, to beat Campenaerts record in HotWater (Aquacalientes...) he probably need 335w ?
Not sure what is his sea level FTP however. Probably not too far from 400w :-)

earlier in the thread....

Rappstar wrote:
Most of those HUUB guys (except the bigger Tanfields) have CdAs down under 0.18. There's rumors that Archibald even got under 0.16, which is insane. In March, after a fair bit of refinement, I was just a shade under 0.2.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry, I missed that one.

I heard a guy was under 0.16 (0.159 apparently) but apparently he was less than 1.75m (5'9").
John Archibald seems to be taller than that (6' + ?).

Maybe Joeri will give us some hint ;-)
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]
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Almost 😉 he said Archibald is touching 0,165 CdA on his track bike. With an air density of 0,94 kg/m^3, which is what he expected at Aguas Calientes, it would mean John only needs 300-310W to break it.

They did experiments in altitude tents a while ago (was in their Instagram stories) where they determined the loss at altitude. For John it was only 7%, they estimate an additional 2-4% because they tested in 22deg C instead of around 30 like in Bolivia.

So assume an FTP of 380-400W, lose 10%, if he can manage 340-360W.. Even if it's "only" 330W, if he can maintain that CdA..
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Tri_Joeri] [ In reply to ]
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Tri_Joeri wrote:
Almost 😉 he said Archibald is touching 0,165 CdA on his track bike. With an air density of 0,94 kg/m^3, which is what he expected at Aguas Calientes, it would mean John only needs 300-310W to break it.

They did experiments in altitude tents a while ago (was in their Instagram stories) where they determined the loss at altitude. For John it was only 7%, they estimate an additional 2-4% because they tested in 22deg C instead of around 30 like in Bolivia.

So assume an FTP of 380-400W, lose 10%, if he can manage 340-360W.. Even if it's "only" 330W, if he can maintain that CdA..

Let's assume FTP 380w, minus 12% : 335w
CdA 0,167 (difficult to stay perfect one hour...), reasonable local pressure, ...

Theoretically he can go 55.5 km

They need to do it quickly.... I guess if Ganna work a bit on his aero, he can beat 56 km :-)
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [FuzzyRunner] [ In reply to ]
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Pacing graph - really impressive effort!

https://twitter.com/...669805622951937?s=20



AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Xavier] [ In reply to ]
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Dowsett just anounced he's having another go at it

https://www.instagram.com/...igshid=12m9vuqxdsjvy
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Tri_Joeri] [ In reply to ]
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Tri_Joeri wrote:
Dowsett just anounced he's having another go at it

https://www.instagram.com/...igshid=12m9vuqxdsjvy

That is awesome. Did Israel Startup Nation renew his contract yet, or is he still shopping himself around. I hope he can take the 55+. Where is he doing this (which velodrome) ?
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Manchester velodrome

he said he had secured a contract for 2 years, but hasn't said with who.

Also says it'll be done on a real track bike, not a converted road bike (so presumably not a Factor)

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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Morelock wrote:
Manchester velodrome

he said he had secured a contract for 2 years, but hasn't said with who.

Also says it'll be done on a real track bike, not a converted road bike (so presumably not a Factor)

Smart move by him. I hardly agree with Wiggins opinion, but I think he is right when he said that once Ganna goes for it, he will push it to 56-57 kph and will be out of reach for a long time. So he is going before him. I don't think he is going to get it though, 55 kph is still a solid performance.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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Morelock wrote:
Manchester velodrome


he said he had secured a contract for 2 years, but hasn't said with who.

Also says it'll be done on a real track bike, not a converted road bike (so presumably not a Factor)


Cool, same velodrome as Obree and Boardman!

I see Dowsett's attempt already on the list on Wikipedia for Dec 19th:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hour_record


Lionel's ride is also on there as is MTM's. How many triathletes are on any Wikipedia page with Eddy Merckx ???? Kudos to Lionel (and I guess Victor Campanaerts is a reformed triathlete too).
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Engner66] [ In reply to ]
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He'll certainly have his hands full, but it's tough to say. 55 is definitely a solid number, but Dowsett is the only person (Voigt, and Lionel I suppose excluded) that has done the hour that looked like they went far too conservatively. He may have been very close to Wiggins if he had paced more aggressively then. If he is on similar/better form than that, and has gained a little % in aero/crr, he has a legit shot with a good day.

Ganna does show all the signs of someone that's going to crush it, probably depends a little on Ineos' plans for him and the 4 minute barrier though.

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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I love Dowsett and his videos. It will be fun to see the build. Whether he gets it or not will be of interest because he is smart and a good lad.

If Ganna has no issues post-Covid he will destroy everyone. His track skills, his CdA and his power are untouchable. Look at his Strava.

525 watts for 13 minutes. 495 watts for an hour. 495 watts average. All my best numbers are reported in NP my friends so I'm guessing a bit higher. ;)

I can't imagine that power for any duration. It's no wonder he crushed everyone in TTs. Rohan was still doing all time best powers in these too. Wout was too. Wout did 470 watts for 20 minutes on a recon of Roubaix and Ganna still beat him.

Top Ganna


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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Tri_Joeri wrote:
Dowsett just anounced he's having another go at it

https://www.instagram.com/...igshid=12m9vuqxdsjvy


That is awesome. Did Israel Startup Nation renew his contract yet, or is he still shopping himself around. I hope he can take the 55+. Where is he doing this (which velodrome) ?

The Irish rumour is Ineos again. I can't see that though.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Tri_Joeri] [ In reply to ]
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Dowsett video just posted. Haha a slightly different approach then Lionel



Last edited by: FuzzyRunner: Nov 10, 20 13:05
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [FuzzyRunner] [ In reply to ]
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Saw it as well, interesting that he only pushed 360W at sea level last time and would need around 400W to match or break Campenaerts' record, I guess with favorable air pressure and temperatures.

Given I read somewhere that he did 400W average at the Worlds TT or the national 25 or idk which more recent TT, I'm curious to see how close he can get.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Tri_Joeri] [ In reply to ]
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Does anyone know Dowsett's weight? Lionel mentions in the Breakfast with Bob interview that he held 380 watts in his attempt.

It will be interesting how far he gets. He seemed to be pretty unhappy with is season so far (besides his stage win, obviously) but not sure if it's because his numbers just aren't there or something else. He did say that he wouldn't be trying if he didn't think he had a shot but I can't really imagine him saying him going for it but has no shot at the record.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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Wondey why Dowsett didn't book a second attempt. Probably easier said than done, from a logistics perspective.

I recall that Rominger did two attempts in 94 (?), first one just to take the record from Indurain 53-54 kph, and then the second attempt about a week later where he took it over 55 kph.

In any case, 55 kph at sea level would definitely get him out of his comfort zone. Been enjoying the hour record performances since the UCI got rid of their stupid "Eddy Merckx" hour record equipment rule.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Engner66] [ In reply to ]
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I THINK Rominger also changed bikes between the two record attemps in two weeks. I believe the second had a front 650 whereas the first one had dual 700's.

Google search shows these images:

Week 1



Week 2


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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting, hard to tell as the angles are a bit different but the second position seems a bit more aggressive, judging on the knee at the top of the pedal stroke maybe coming a bit higher than the elbow?
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Engner66] [ In reply to ]
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I found two more images. You can see in the second one he was able to get lower because the head tube size looks similar but given the 650 wheel, stack appears to be lower. Also I swear they stuck a Lionel style hydration systems in his back to fill the gap to his helmet...what do you think?




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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Engner66] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe I am seeing things and both bikes are 650 front !!!! I believe Luc Van Lierde subsequently used a road version of the 650 fron/700 rear colnago in Kona.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Ferrari wrote up some notes. https://www.53x12.com/rominger-s-hour

Take everything on that site with a grain of salt, but it would be weird to overtly lie about equipment.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [Karl.n] [ In reply to ]
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I remember reading about the "centrifuge effect" for larger riders over the hour. Key quote here

"Finally, at these speeds the one-hour record, with the 442 curves Tony had to negotiate, became a kind of a ride through a ‘centrifuge’. Carrying 15 kg in weight and 13 cm in height more than his rival, Indurain clearly suffered more from the centrifugal force in the curves. This would have been due to the increased rolling friction (which is directly proportional to weight, and through the curves at these speeds the combined weight of bike plus rider virtually doubles), as well as to a more difficult vein blood return from the legs to the heart due to Indurain’s greater height. "
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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tilburs wrote:
Because having fun and staying motivated key drivers.

He is still swimming and Daytona is the focus. Physiologically speaking getting into great 1hr bike shape and 5k speed shape aligns nicely with training demands of speed needs for Daytona.

Your strategy played out pretty well perfectly at Daytona. From a distance it looked like Lionel sat on his watts other than surges to pass competitors, and with no rest compared too those in the largely legal lead group he had the 2nd fasted bike and then he had legs to outrun many ITU top guns.

It looks like a lot of top athletes were not ready for 1:40 minutes bolted in the aero position with zero breaks (this must have seemed relatively easy for Lionel after the hour) and they paid with hamstring and calf cramping on the run. If this was a full half distance event with the longer bike and run, I think a lot of the others have slightly slower runs, but more importantly more real estate to make up time. It all bodes well for Kona next year.

So now with winter, does he get the 160km swimming per month program. 1 minute faster in the swim and this is a totally different race for Lionel given that he ends up coming to T2 with the lead bike group and not playing catch up continuously for 100km!!! He must have burnt the highest number of kilojoules per kilo of body weight of anyone in the race. Chapeau.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
tilburs wrote:
Because having fun and staying motivated key drivers.

He is still swimming and Daytona is the focus. Physiologically speaking getting into great 1hr bike shape and 5k speed shape aligns nicely with training demands of speed needs for Daytona.

Your strategy played out pretty well perfectly at Daytona. From a distance it looked like Lionel sat on his watts other than surges to pass competitors, and with no rest compared too those in the largely legal lead group he had the 2nd fasted bike and then he had legs to outrun many ITU top guns.

It looks like a lot of top athletes were not ready for 1:40 minutes bolted in the aero position with zero breaks (this must have seemed relatively easy for Lionel after the hour) and they paid with hamstring and calf cramping on the run. If this was a full half distance event with the longer bike and run, I think a lot of the others have slightly slower runs, but more importantly more real estate to make up time. It all bodes well for Kona next year.

So now with winter, does he get the 160km swimming per month program. 1 minute faster in the swim and this is a totally different race for Lionel given that he ends up coming to T2 with the lead bike group and not playing catch up continuously for 100km!!! He must have burnt the highest number of kilojoules per kilo of body weight of anyone in the race. Chapeau.

I thought Lionel had a really solid race tactically throughout and ran as well off the bike as we've seen. The specific bike TT work and chipping away at that run speed played off well.

However I'm not sure how many other opportunities there will be on a course that suits his strengths in a truly world class field? The extra 10km on the bike over 70.3 will be countered by the fact that there will be hills and a 12m draft rule which will suit the likely guys up front. And if that swim isn't under a 2 min deficit I think it's gonna be difficult judging by past 70.3 champs.

I still think he's got a World title (not ITU LD) in him, but only at Kona. I think now he's back with DTD the chances of that have went up an order of magnitude, so great work from the pair.
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Regarding his swim - sure this has been asked before, but is it physically possible for LS to get into the second or first pack at Kona?

As in, pretend the only thing he focused on was his swim. All he wanted to do was swim first pack and then drop out. I am interested from the point of view of how some people swim fast and some don’t.

Given the most fish start so young, and given that he seems to have hit the ceiling, is it a pipe dream that he might ever improve his swim in a material way.

What is it about swimming that is such a mystery to some people?
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you.

Ummmm.... we´ll see about 160k swim months, but swim will for sure be a topic of discussion.

Cheers.

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [The Guardian] [ In reply to ]
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The Guardian wrote:
Regarding his swim - sure this has been asked before, but is it physically possible for LS to get into the second or first pack at Kona?

As in, pretend the only thing he focused on was his swim. All he wanted to do was swim first pack and then drop out. I am interested from the point of view of how some people swim fast and some don’t.

Given the most fish start so young, and given that he seems to have hit the ceiling, is it a pipe dream that he might ever improve his swim in a material way.

What is it about swimming that is such a mystery to some people?


In fairness to Lionel, at tremblant 70.3 World's in 2014 he was 4.5 minutes behind Gomez, and yesterday he was 3.5 minutes behind. In both races he bike-ran his way up to 4th overall but this time he was 1:10 off the win, not 5 minutes behind the win (and he beat Javier, who won 70.3 World's in 2014)

To get 1.5 minutes behind (cut deficit by 2 min), he has to rougly swim 6 seconds faster per 100m. But part of that is getting your first 50m and first 200m time way faster, and I don't have any idea what his 50m time is relative to Brownlee or Schoeman.

I believe in advance of Daytona in Lionel's interviews he said his best chance of the win was combinig the hour record training with 5000m run training and he roughly said the swim will be what it will be. He totally delivered on exactly what he said he would do and was close enough that 2nd was a possibility.
Last edited by: devashish_paul: Dec 7, 20 7:09
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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tilburs wrote:
Thank you.

Ummmm.... we´ll see about 160k swim months, but swim will for sure be a topic of discussion.

Cheers.

Well you guys proved the strategy for Hour record + 5000m put him in the realm of the race win in spite of whatever swim he gets. That was hugely impressive to play catch up for every meter of 100km. This is a really tough way to race with zero opportunity to let up in a group be it on the bike or run.

We need to push WTC for a 20m Kona draft rule. This was awesome
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Re: Lionel going to for the Canadian Hour Record [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
The Guardian wrote:
Regarding his swim - sure this has been asked before, but is it physically possible for LS to get into the second or first pack at Kona?

As in, pretend the only thing he focused on was his swim. All he wanted to do was swim first pack and then drop out. I am interested from the point of view of how some people swim fast and some don’t.

Given the most fish start so young, and given that he seems to have hit the ceiling, is it a pipe dream that he might ever improve his swim in a material way.

What is it about swimming that is such a mystery to some people?


In fairness to Lionel, at tremblant 70.3 World's in 2014 he was 4.5 minutes behind Gomez, and yesterday he was 3.5 minutes behind. In both races he bike-ran his way up to 4th overall but this time he was 1:10 off the win, not 5 minutes behind the win (and he beat Javier, who won 70.3 World's in 2014)

To get 1.5 minutes behind (cut deficit by 2 min), he has to rougly swim 6 seconds faster per 100m. But part of that is getting your first 50m and first 200m time way faster, and I don't have any idea what his 50m time is relative to Brownlee or Schoeman.

I believe in advance of Daytona in Lionel's interviews he said his best chance of the win was combinig the hour record training with 5000m run training and he roughly said the swim will be what it will be. He totally delivered on exactly what he said he would do and was close enough that 2nd was a possibility.

I doubt Gomez is as fast in the water as he was in '14 (although I could be wrong). Is he a minute slower? unlikely, but he's probably somewhat slower.

Lionel has improved his swim quite a bit, but he's never going to have that fluidity that pure swimmers have. He just seems to be very rigidly built. I'd guess he's probably no going to get any faster in the water, but then neither are his current competition.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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