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Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice?
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On the descent, coming into Carros Village, I had just bunny-hopped the speed bump and slowed down to 29.3 mph coming into the hairpin that's in the middle of the village when someone slammed into me from behind with tremendous force. We both hit the deck. I was laying on my back screaming "F**K" over and over again. I could not really move, or even crawl off the road. The guy who hit me came over and repeated twice something like "You moved over" and then he got on his bike and continued the race.

Im just back from the hospital. I can't walk (or even really sit) and am in extreme pain in my ribs and my hip/pelvis, but apparently I'm in pretty good shape, considering. May be a minor pelvis fracture that often does not turn up in imaging, but nothing to do about that anyway. Ribs are excruciating.

Would love to hear about it from someone who witnessed it, if any of those people see this.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Oh man, I didnā€™t watch any of the race but want to wish you a speedy recovery.

Most importantly, howā€™s your bike?
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Oh man sounds awful sorry to hear. I was in first group off so only was 1 crash and it was pretty bad. Lots of ambulances headed up when I was going down. Over dinner we had a friend that saw a guy go right over one of the guard rails (if you can call them that) and down the cliff bike and all.

Speedy recovery.

2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry to hear about this, heal quickly. I canā€™t imagine anyone trying to pass on a hairpin turn (even if you did move over a little).
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Shit, I wish you a speedy recovery Ed, sounds like a shocker. What a prick that guy was to carry on down the road.

Only suggestion I have; Strava flyby to see who was riding with you and then look through their ride charts for anybody whose speed dropped to zero in that spot.

Good luck.

Cheers, Rich.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Speedy recovery man, thatā€™s horrible!

80/20 Endurance Ambassador
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Shit, sorry to hear about that Ed. Crappy sportsmanship there
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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I've seen zero of the coverage except results online. Best wishes in recovery.
To that point, despite it being WC 70.3, it would seem if he was okay enough to yell at you that he would first help you off the road and get you to safety--it's the HUMAN thing to do.

Did someone help you out or did you roll/crawl to the side and have someone call for help? That guy sounds like a real weenie smoker.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Dan that sucks. What a dick to throw blame then ride off without seeing if you were ok. Iā€™ll second what was mentioned above to try the Strava flyby to ID who it could be.

Wishing you a full recovery

Matt
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Wow.
Hope you heal quick and are back to 100% soon.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Suuuucky! Wish you well! Didnā€™t see your crash but did see the motorcycle tip over in a hairpin. Took it wide by the cones, oncoming traffic near and down went the bike. Didnā€™t look bad, but tipping one over is never good, even if at 0 mph.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Iā€™m so sorry to hear this Ed. I sure hope that there is some way to track down the duche that hit you. Would enjoy having him outed.

And since no one had asked yet, I guess Iā€™ll have to do it....HOW IS THE BIKE? šŸ˜³
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [Toothengineer] [ In reply to ]
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Toothengineer wrote:
Oh man sounds awful sorry to hear. I was in first group off so only was 1 crash and it was pretty bad. Lots of ambulances headed up when I was going down. Over dinner we had a friend that saw a guy go right over one of the guard rails (if you can call them that) and down the cliff bike and all.

Speedy recovery.


Yeah, that guy fell off a 20m cliff. He was at the hospital too and supposedly in very bad shape. I only heard about him, did not see him. I heard the term 'fighting for his life'. I saw probably 12 guys in the hospital who had crashed. The waiting room was packed with women wearing Ironman shirts.

I was in the first wave too and I saw 2 crashes on the way down, one guy up high, sitting up but his face was covered in blood and I'll could see a bad gash on his temple. I saw a second guy with paramedics but could not really see anything.

I have to say, before my crash I was having a blast, but also very aware that the group racing Dynamics on that descent were VERY dangerous. Lots of people doing very aggressive and dangerous passing manuevers. Basically all out racing the descent in tight packs.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Last edited by: RowToTri: Sep 8, 19 19:27
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [Dbeitel] [ In reply to ]
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Dbeitel wrote:
Iā€™m so sorry to hear this Ed. I sure hope that there is some way to track down the duche that hit you. Would enjoy having him outed.

And since no one had asked yet, I guess Iā€™ll have to do it....HOW IS THE BIKE? šŸ˜³

I can't get up to go look at it but I'm told the bars are broken.

I've tried Strava fly-by but have not been able to find him.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Crap, the double whammy.....

Bars can be fixed/replaced, get healed up....

DB
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
Dbeitel wrote:
Iā€™m so sorry to hear this Ed. I sure hope that there is some way to track down the duche that hit you. Would enjoy having him outed.

And since no one had asked yet, I guess Iā€™ll have to do it....HOW IS THE BIKE? šŸ˜³


I can't get up to go look at it but I'm told the bars are broken.

I've tried Strava fly-by but have not been able to find him.

unleash your activity to the masses... I sure a lot of people would try
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [spntrxi] [ In reply to ]
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spntrxi wrote:
RowToTri wrote:
Dbeitel wrote:
Iā€™m so sorry to hear this Ed. I sure hope that there is some way to track down the duche that hit you. Would enjoy having him outed.

And since no one had asked yet, I guess Iā€™ll have to do it....HOW IS THE BIKE? šŸ˜³


I can't get up to go look at it but I'm told the bars are broken.

I've tried Strava fly-by but have not been able to find him.


unleash your activity to the masses... I sure a lot of people would try


Here it is

https://www.strava.com/...segments/67333975864

The last bits of movement are people moving my bike around. You have to Zoom way in and find the little hairpin in Carros and then you'll see the crash.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Last edited by: RowToTri: Sep 8, 19 20:15
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
On the descent, coming into Carros Village, I had just bunny-hopped the speed bump and slowed down to 29.3 mph coming into the hairpin that's in the middle of the village when someone slammed into me from behind with tremendous force. We both hit the deck. I was laying on my back screaming "F**K" over and over again. I could not really move, or even crawl off the road. The guy who hit me came over and repeated twice something like "You moved over" and then he got on his bike and continued the race.

Im just back from the hospital. I can't walk (or even really sit) and am in extreme pain in my ribs and my hip/pelvis, but apparently I'm in pretty good shape, considering. May be a minor pelvis fracture that often does not turn up in imaging, but nothing to do about that anyway. Ribs are excruciating.

Would love to hear about it from someone who witnessed it, if any of those people see this.

Hey man, when I saw this, I was really worried it was one of those crashes where you lost consciousness and have no clue until you woke up in an ambulance (as you know I can relate to that). I hope you are doing OK as can be.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Wave 4 here the bike the beautiful and challenging, but not suited to funnel 3.5k guys through. For a normal IM 70.3 with larger ability range distribution it might have worked. Downhill passing with guys all over the road just made it sketchy. Watching guys do stupid shit who were no where near podium contention is classic.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [chrsc13981] [ In reply to ]
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To the OP: best wishes on your recovery, and Iā€™m very sorry this happened.

It was striking to me that WC picked this course for a WC. This is the same company that routinely cancels or shortens swims with the slightest bit of inclement weather. Yet, with over five thousand riders, and fortunately good weather conditions, a number of major accidents was inevitable. Too many riders that spend all their time on the trainer, mixed with some serious agro types. There was some serious carnage out there.

Donā€™t get me wrong, Iā€™m all for the self responsibility ethos. Just be consistent about it and let people swim too.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Your crash sounds terrible. Wishing you a speedy recovery.

I was concerned about this happening to me as guys flew past me in the turns. Felt like an Amish buggy on the Autobahn with reckless Porsche drivers zipping by way to close. Never did a race that felt this dangerous.

John Hollenhorst
St Pete Beach
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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100% agree. After the climb and watching 50+ people pass me on the climb I realized any hope of going top 30 top 50 where done. Made the decision to stay safe and turn the race into a nice training day. I think I was lucky to start the descent with one guy who I could watch take all the corners first which was helpful; I used the entire road which made it safer (with the guy in front I could watch to see if a car was coming). Only 3 guys passed me on the way down and it was a lovely ride. I could see how easily it could become a hectic environment with more riders on the course. I donā€™t think it was a safe course for a world championship race, however it did break up all the drafting which is hard to do in these races and it was a spectacular view.

2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, thankfully no head injury. My aerohead is cracked through so it did its job well. I just want a better understanding of what that guy was doing and how it happened.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [Hed Case] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry to hear about the crash. Heal strong.

To be honest Iā€™m not surprised there were a lot of incidents. I remember the descent from Lookout, Chattanooga in 2017; being MOP ish M50-54 I was really among 3 speeds of rider, flying past slower riders from earlier waves but with absolute guns from M25-29 from the wave behind screaming past.

Non technical, so not a huge problem on that day just a bit uncomfortable. I do remember thinking it would be carnage on a Euro switchback descent with different braking points, lines through corners etc from these mixed abilities descending due to the wave start format.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [TRO Saracen] [ In reply to ]
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I went up and rode part of the course earlier in the week but did not actually race. The bottom of the descent (the part I rode) was gnarly and it seems the top was even worse. I can't imagine what it must have been like on race day for the men.

When will Ironman get their head out of their asses and fix obvious issues like this? Make the World Championships an actual World Championship. Get rid of roll downs at qualifying races. Win your age group and get in, if not then too bad. This race should have been capped at 1k athletes. The course would have been much safer and I can guarantee there wouldnt be as many people in serious crashes like there were this weekend.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Ed, this just sounds horrible. I hate to hear this happen to anyone and I find it disappointing that another elite/pro triathlete behaved with such disrespect for another humanā€™s well-being. No championship is worth such lack of compassion. Do you remember if he had any sort of accent? Or maybe anything else distinctive about him that you may have picked up in those few seconds? Bike manufacture/tri kit/sponsor on kit? Sometimes, despite serious trauma, people can recall quite a few things even in very short periods of interaction.

More importantly, please continue to monitor your condition and maybe get second MRIā€™s/ opinions done by specialists in that injured region should it continue to significantly cause you pain and discomfort. I found additional bones broken myself when I did this. A close triathlete friend of mine found ligaments completely torn away from muscle (in surgery) when nothing solid significant showed up in scans. Be good to yourself and I hope you heal well.
Last edited by: Trigirl357: Sep 9, 19 0:49
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [APKTRI] [ In reply to ]
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APKTRI wrote:
I went up and rode part of the course earlier in the week but did not actually race. The bottom of the descent (the part I rode) was gnarly and it seems the top was even worse. I can't imagine what it must have been like on race day for the men.

When will Ironman get their head out of their asses and fix obvious issues like this? Make the World Championships an actual World Championship. Get rid of roll downs at qualifying races. Win your age group and get in, if not then too bad. This race should have been capped at 1k athletes. The course would have been much safer and I can guarantee there wouldnt be as many people in serious crashes like there were this weekend.

I think the issue with this is they need to generate enough $$ to put the race on. WTC is a money making machine so the more the merrier for them. Agreed that would solve a lot of issues, and let it only roll until someone takes it (usually not more than 3rd). I can only imagine how many wrecks would have happened if it rained all day long. It could have been worse. Ed, speedy healing to you...don't skip out on your vitamin E.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [Trigirl357] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks a lot. I'm not a pro, just an AG.

I *think* I remember some sort of accent but I could not tell you what it was. I also *think* his kit was black and white, but really I do not know for sure. I was not thinking straight.

For a long time (30 minutes, an hour... hard to tell) after the crash I was shaking pretty uncontrollably, and occasionally feel very emotional about it. I was not in a super stable frame of mind.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [APKTRI] [ In reply to ]
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APKTRI wrote:
I went up and rode part of the course earlier in the week but did not actually race. The bottom of the descent (the part I rode) was gnarly and it seems the top was even worse. I can't imagine what it must have been like on race day for the men.

When will Ironman get their head out of their asses and fix obvious issues like this? Make the World Championships an actual World Championship. Get rid of roll downs at qualifying races. Win your age group and get in, if not then too bad. This race should have been capped at 1k athletes. The course would have been much safer and I can guarantee there wouldnt be as many people in serious crashes like there were this weekend.

I was talking with my buddy and I think you need to go further. Even if you just take AG winners, at 112 qualifying races, that's still over 2000 racers.

I think qualifying should just be at the regional championships. Set it so that at the WC you have something like 20-30 people in each AG and that's it.

They would have to scale back the production level of the race, and accept making less money on it, so may be a pipe dream. But it would also make it a damn prestigious race.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [APKTRI] [ In reply to ]
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So it felt much safer on race day then it did when we rode it in the morning on Thursday. I imagine the groups behind me would have seen a course that was littered with water bottles and Co2ā€™s due to everyone taking speed bumps at full speed.

2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Race pics... You should be able to pick him out as he must have passed a race photographer closely after you at some point before the crash.

RowToTri wrote:
Thanks a lot. I'm not a pro, just an AG.
I *think* I remember some sort of accent but I could not tell you what it was. I also *think* his kit was black and white, but really I do not know for sure. I was not thinking straight.

For a long time (30 minutes, an hour... hard to tell) after the crash I was shaking pretty uncontrollably, and occasionally feel very emotional about it. I was not in a super stable frame of mind.

What's your CdA?
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [Toothengineer] [ In reply to ]
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I bet it was better up at the pointy end where you were. Were the amateurs taking the full road on the descent? On the live stream the pros were and the commentators were saying athletes were allowed to but were told to primairly stay in the right lane.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [trailerhouse] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe seeing a picture will trigger my memory but I'm not sure I will be able to recognize him.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
APKTRI wrote:
I went up and rode part of the course earlier in the week but did not actually race. The bottom of the descent (the part I rode) was gnarly and it seems the top was even worse. I can't imagine what it must have been like on race day for the men.

When will Ironman get their head out of their asses and fix obvious issues like this? Make the World Championships an actual World Championship. Get rid of roll downs at qualifying races. Win your age group and get in, if not then too bad. This race should have been capped at 1k athletes. The course would have been much safer and I can guarantee there wouldnt be as many people in serious crashes like there were this weekend.

I was talking with my buddy and I think you need to go further. Even if you just take AG winners, at 112 qualifying races, that's still over 2000 racers.

I think qualifying should just be at the regional championships. Set it so that at the WC you have something like 20-30 people in each AG and that's it.

They would have to scale back the production level of the race, and accept making less money on it, so may be a pipe dream. But it would also make it a damn prestigious race.

That is also a thought I had. Make the regional championships much more if an actual championship rather than just another basic 70.3 with a longer name. That way they can then make the other 70.3s non qualifying races and have them much more friendly to beginners (easy swims, non-technical bikes, easy runs). On that note - as the bike skills of triathletes get worse and worse this may become more necessary.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [APKTRI] [ In reply to ]
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Given the WTC business model, I think less technical courses is the only way to improve bike safety.

29 years and counting
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [Jorgan] [ In reply to ]
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I think you may be right, which is too bad. The course yesterday really was glorious. Worthy of a world championship.

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Ed O'Malley
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [APKTRI] [ In reply to ]
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I was not till I got passed by 2 guys using full 2 lanes, then I group of 3 passed me also using full lanes. After that I just stuck with them must of way down just following there line: both lanes all the way to the bottom. I would say my path down was pretty safe... only saw one guy crashed out but man he looked to be in bad shape, lots of blood.

2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not sure putting much energy into finding this guy is going to be beneficial to you. Obviously you're pissed off and rightly so but there's not much recourse after the fact is there?

"They know f_ck-all over at Slowtwitch"
- Lionel Sanders
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [APKTRI] [ In reply to ]
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APKTRI wrote:
.

When will Ironman get their head out of their asses and fix obvious issues like this? Make the World Championships an actual World Championship .

ITU runs the actual world's. WTC is a private corporation.

***
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [Fuller] [ In reply to ]
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Fuller wrote:
I'm not sure putting much energy into finding this guy is going to be beneficial to you. Obviously you're pissed off and rightly so but there's not much recourse after the fact is there?

Ed, I agree with this. The past is the past. We are all racers on race day trying to all go as fast as we can and each of us with a different set of risk tolerances on race day that one the aggregate influence everyone around us....beside us, behind us and even in front of us at that moment (what we do now may affect the race in front of us seconds or minutes or hours from now).

What I can say is none of us can change the past. The easiest way to get past this is focus on being the best man Ed can be in the future...racer, friends, family person, CO worker. You will have positive emotions to build your recovery from. I know you may want closure. The best closure is focusing on kicking all in the future. This weekend while you were in Nice I just did my first half Ironman since we both did Worlds in Zelle Am See 4 years ago. Ruptured discs, then finally getting good enough to ride last summer and then being run over by a bus and more rehab for months. Did my first running in 4 years in March. First Olympic tri in July. 8 weeks later, first half Ironman and matched my time from Zelle Am See 4 years ago and went 4:54 on an easier course but 4 years older on a broken body. I have found just moving forward is the best path. I am just glad you are going to be around to race. Thanks for the help on the rowing thread. If I did not have that positive support from you guys there is no way I would be biking and running again. That rowing machine got me over the hump.


Get well, move forward and good health and more Pbs to come. You are young and have a lot of miles left.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks, Dev. You guys are right that there is no recourse. I'm very lucky that I believe I am going to fully recover relatively quickly. Other people are in much worse shape than I am. I can't stop thinking about the guy that went over the cliff or the guy that toothengineer mentioned covered in blood - I saw that guy too.

That is great news about your racing, I am really happy to hear that you can race again.

I don't think this guy simply made a different personal risk decision than I did. I think he made an objectively irresponsible decision that put me in the hospital, is costing me thousands of dollars and took away my world championship experience. And then he told me it was my fault and left me in the middle of the road.

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Ed O'Malley
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Last edited by: RowToTri: Sep 9, 19 5:52
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [M----n] [ In reply to ]
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M----n wrote:
APKTRI wrote:
.

When will Ironman get their head out of their asses and fix obvious issues like this? Make the World Championships an actual World Championship .


ITU runs the actual world's. WTC is a private corporation.

Are you saying that a jurisdicational global sports governing monopoly is in a better position to run a world championships than a private company. Do we think that Major League Baseball, Tour De France, Tennis Grand Slam events, NBA Championships, Stanley Cup finals are less worthy top world tournaments/sporting events than the associated world championships in any sport? The private corporation world championships (in most case self claimed), are much better quality sporting events than the sporting body monopoly worlds' events. In hockey, no one (except a few random Canadians because our teams can no longer win the Stanley Cup) care about the IIHF Worlds'. The latter tournament is the tournament for those who can't progress in (or never get into) the NHL playoffs.

Dev
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Ed first thing my wife asked this morning when we got up. ā€œGod is there nothing you can do to that guy that caused his crashā€.... I honestly think she was ready to go hunt him down for you.

.... report on IG that there is now a ā€œfatalityā€ can only hope itā€™s not true.

2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:

I've tried Strava fly-by but have not been able to find him.

The guy might have been nervous about this post-crash and kept the activity private or deleted it.

Sorry to hear about your crash. It sounds like a nightmare. At least youā€™re alive and will come back stronger.

https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Ed, I also agree with Devashish_paul as well. I have definitely seen my share of people who have attempted to find others in hope of righting their situation and I totally get it. But I found in their situations they spent a lot of time and additional energy out of their own life only to come up empty in what they were seeking. I have been thinking of your situation since last night and I keep coming back to this very thought which will probably not be popular amongst many in our triathlon community and forum...

As I see it, an accident/collision should absolutely be something of a game stopper for all those involved. I am not speaking of the bike collisions where both parties can get up, wipe the road rash off and continue on. I personally think triathlon rules need to change to cause the parties involved to not leave the scene when at least one is significantly injured, despite the purpose or importance of the race. What if Ed did receive a head injury? Since when is a race more important than human life and their safety as they lie in a road helpless, hurt, in critical conditions or sometimes already deceased? I do believe all parties need to stop, at least try to render aid, flag down assistance and be able to give an account of what happened to an official of some sort. Maybe at a bare minimum give some sort of race official their information if they choose to continue to race on so they may be contacted later for a statement. If this was a vehicle that hit Ed then it would have been illegal to leave the scene of an accident. I am not looking for someone to blame or be liable, I am focused on those statements that could help medical professionals render the best possible aid, especially to those who are incapable of speaking/understanding it themselves. Those statements could also help the racerā€™s family members understand and come to some sort of peace of mind.

This reminds me the recent tragedy of Jill Levy Morris in IMMT. Luckily another male racer saw her just before her death. He witnessed her dire condition as she was still cycling and seconds after he passed her, he heard and saw the aftermath. He had compassion, he stopped his race and was able to give critical information that explained how this tragedy happened to race officials. He was able to fill in the gaps that he believed she was potentially in a state of swerving and passing out when the first service vehicle thought he cleared her. Obviously a horrible situation for everyone but at least people can understand what happened because the witnesses/those involved stopped what they were doing to figure it out. At least the family can understand from someone who was there how her life ended when the two parties involved couldnā€™t speak or make sense out of it. Human safety and compassion should be above anything else.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Really sorry to hear of your accident and also to hear of the other competitors terrible attitude and behaviour.
When I hear stories of folks kicking and punching people in the swim and then leaving competitors seriously injured on the road, I fear for our society. I donā€™t know if itā€™s the competitiveness or just the general callousness of folks that drives this behaviour but I find it very sad.
I really hope you heal up soon.

Will
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [Toothengineer] [ In reply to ]
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That's terrible. I hope it's not true.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Just another thought, was there a timing pad that was crossed nearby? At least you may be able to narrow it down to a smaller group? That is if someone would have access to that???
Again, focus on positive healing!
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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As cyclists, we all live in fear of the hit-and-run car driver that leaves us in a heap by the side of the road. That type of scumbag does so because he can avoid recourse.

Granting the reckless triathlete the same opportunity to ā€œrunā€ without recourse is a similar injustice. Even if public shaming is the only recourse for this POS, then that might set an example for the next guy.

Track the MFer down!

I had an experience yesterday where an Australian cyclist zoomed between me and a guy in front of me on a hairpin, passing me from the outside and the guy in front of me on the inside. I said ā€œbe carefulā€ with a neutral tone, and he turned around twice to yell some unintelligible series of curses. Obviously, the dude was in full amp mode. He finished about 100th in the AG, so what the hell was the point?
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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So sorry to hear of this. Hope you heal quickly and get back at it.

You are totally entitled to a full range of emotions after such an unforeseen tragedy. Whatever you decide to do over the next few months, make sure you make YOUR recovery a top priority. You deserve that more than anything.

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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
I don't think this guy simply made a different personal risk decision than I did. I think he made an objectively irresponsible decision that put me in the hospital, is costing me thousands of dollars and took away my world championship experience. And then he told me it was my fault and left me in the middle of the road.
I wasn't there, but I can tell you what most likely happened. He saw you slowing down on the right and thought he could over take you on the left. You went left to take the proper line for a hairpin and he ran into you. Afterward, he freaked out knowing it was his fault and tried to explain to you that you moved off your line. His biggest error prior to the crash was incorrectly anticipating your path. That is something you can do in a crit, but not in a non-draft triathlon. The biggest error afterward was putting his race above the need to see to your well being. If he could go back and do it all over again, he would have been more careful.

Does knowing all this help?
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [Waingro] [ In reply to ]
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Waingro wrote:

Track the MFer down!

It seems like the only piece of connecting information left is possibly on the GPS servers. But, I don't think Strava or Garmin or whoever is just going to hand over their private data; it would probably have to be legally obtained.

https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
Thanks, Dev. You guys are right that there is no recourse. I'm very lucky that I believe I am going to fully recover relatively quickly. Other people are in much worse shape than I am. I can't stop thinking about the guy that went over the cliff or the guy that toothengineer mentioned covered in blood - I saw that guy too.

That is great news about your racing, I am really happy to hear that you can race again.

I don't think this guy simply made a different personal risk decision than I did. I think he made an objectively irresponsible decision that put me in the hospital, is costing me thousands of dollars and took away my world championship experience. And then he told me it was my fault and left me in the middle of the road.

Personally if that was me, I would pursue this. Hopefully Slowtwitch CSI can get on the case with Strava and Finisher Pics and find the guy and hold him responsible. Incredibly selfish for him to leave you there.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [torrey] [ In reply to ]
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torrey wrote:
RowToTri wrote:
I don't think this guy simply made a different personal risk decision than I did. I think he made an objectively irresponsible decision that put me in the hospital, is costing me thousands of dollars and took away my world championship experience. And then he told me it was my fault and left me in the middle of the road.

I wasn't there, but I can tell you what most likely happened. He saw you slowing down on the right and thought he could over take you on the left. You went left to take the proper line for a hairpin and he ran into you. Afterward, he freaked out knowing it was his fault and tried to explain to you that you moved off your line. His biggest error prior to the crash was incorrectly anticipating your path. That is something you can do in a crit, but not in a non-draft triathlon. The biggest error afterward was putting his race above the need to see to your well being. If he could go back and do it all over again, he would have been more careful.

Does knowing all this help?

I would say in general, just like rear ending someone in driving, the onus is not the person in the front (Ed) it is the person behind (the guy who hit him). We're supposed to be in control of our vehicle to deal with what is in front of us. People in front of us don't have eyes in the back of their heads.

In any case, seriously Ed and everyone. There is nothing to do about the past. Its done, its finished.

I am certain if you find the guy in a bar or cafe, before or after the race, he would say he would never intentionally slam another rider, because I am certain all of us would not because we are likely to hurt ourselves in the process.

NO ONE is thinking with a clear mind when racing is going on when this type of situation erupts out of seamingly nowhere. I don't think anyone is trying to be hurtful to another competitor, but I think we all need to admit to ourselves, that racing is already an insanely selfish thing we all do for ourselves and ourselves only. In this situation, it is very very hard to subserve our personal selfish racing needs. Ed is right to believe that they guy who slammed him from behind is at fault (and in my mind he is). But the guy who slammed him from behind at that very moment in the heat of race that he may have worked his entire life for may have not been thinking that way. He was not about to give up his race for what he thought that another rider did "wrong".

The only way to get beyond this is recognize both the selfish need we all have to maximize our race results while at the same time also seeing the innate "goodness" in the fellow competitor. These forces are diametrically opposite in a conflict situation and its like a split second prisoner's dilemma on how any of us react at that very moment in time.

I can't actually say I would subserve my race for another racer 100% of the time even though I have seen the inside of ambulances in racing and training a bit more than most people (then again I have more lifetime miles in racing and training than most people). I would like to say, most of the time if someone was really badly hurt, I would. If they don't seem badly hurt, I'll ride to the next aid station and get help, because honestly decked out in cycling kit, with cleats and an aero helmet on, short of giving CPR or compression which I can do, I am less useful standing around than going up th course to get real medical aid.

I actually don't think that seeking this guy out to publicly shame, or get charges laid moves anyone forward in any constructive way. If you can identify the guy, sit down in a bar, hug and forgive, and become fans of each other and support each other for the next round of racing you will be stronger for it. My "crash mate" from Ironman Switzerland have a 9 year long friendship....not a close one, but we've cheered each other on over many exploits in life. We don't even really know whose fault the crash was as we were both side by side when bad shit happened but we both wrecked each other's race.

Move on Ed....you'll kick ass. Maybe Taupo awaits. You have better things to spend your energy on now.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [plant_based] [ In reply to ]
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I was in the last wave and didn't see your crash unfortunately, however, I know exactly where it happened. I actually lost a bit of time here as I got caught behind a group of slower riders at that point, there is no way that it was a sensible passing location, but if the rider knew the road well, he also knew that it would have been difficult to pass for the next 200m. when passing I always shout a warning, and wait for a sign that the rider ahead has heard me and will give me space, I probably lose 2 seconds per rider being a bit cautious, but I am not in the hunt for a podium.

The biggest shock for me was Alexandr Vinokurov, his descent was right up with the Pro's (and much faster than Daniella Ryf) but he started in the last wave, so the descent would have been really busy; he must have taken some insane risks

I think that the organizers also need to be very clear, it is ALWAYS the responsibility of the overtaking bike to avoid a collision, when there is a collision, both bike MUST STOP, if the bike being overtaken is unable to continue due to damage or injury, then the other cyclist cannot start again until an official has give the go ahead

Overall I didn't find the course to be overcrowded. In the Alps there are many races, like Etap Du Tour, Alpenbrevet etc, which are significantly more crowded and much scarier descending. I think that it is a worthy venue for the 70.3 World Championships.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry to hear this happened to you.
I was very aggressive at first on the desent, started in wave 3. But once it got steeper with hairpins and slower riders from earlier waves where using the whole road and heavy braking not sure of the turns I slowed a lot and said life over splits.

Sounds like the guy behind you was the opposite.
It was a very tough course to have overlapping speeds.
A race of starting fast to slower athletes would be OK, but I am a light guy and was flying by bigger guys.

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
I don't think this guy simply made a different personal risk decision than I did. I think he made an objectively irresponsible decision that put me in the hospital, is costing me thousands of dollars and took away my world championship experience. And then he told me it was my fault and left me in the middle of the road.

x 1,000

Two MASSIVE mistakes here:

1) The idiot didn't use his brakes as needed. Plus, one NEVER wants to be NEXT to (or right behind, or passing) someone in a sharp turn in a TT type race format. It was HIS fault that he slammed into you, the fault is ALWAYS on the person behind slamming in to the person in front.

2) The idiot did not even have the basic human decency to throw in the towel on his race when he had no idea on the extent of your (clearly severe) injuries. It was basically a criminal hit-and-run. I hope the perp can be identified ('marathoninvestigation', this your chance ... )

Very sorry to hear this news, I hope you heal well and speedily.

Greg @ dsw

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [Triathletetoth] [ In reply to ]
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I was in the first wave, 40-44. And while I was not the fastest descender I was not slow. I had just passed a pack of 4-5 guys and I was going into a hairpin at 29mph after bunny-hopping a speed bump at 33mph...

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [logella] [ In reply to ]
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I would be amazed if that applied to sporting events. I donā€™t recall seeing everyone in the peloton stopping to render aid every time someone crashes in the Tour de France. Same with regard to auto racing. It wouldnā€™t make much sense to charge someone with a crime for leaving the scene of an accident in a sporting event that accidents are very much a part of.

To the original poster, I am very sorry to hear about your accident.


Last edited by: imsparticus: Sep 9, 19 8:58
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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You I know my comment was to my experience in wave 3, not your situation.
I think maybe one of those guys you passed hopped onto your wheel for a faster ride and got to close.

I has a few doing that to me too.

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [Triathletetoth] [ In reply to ]
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Triathletetoth wrote:
You I know my comment was to my experience in wave 3, not your situation.
I think maybe one of those guys you passed hopped onto your wheel for a faster ride and got to close.

I has a few doing that to me too.

I was hit with tremendous force. The guy was going a lot faster than me, not someone on my wheel that got too close.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [Jorgan] [ In reply to ]
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Jorgan wrote:
Given the WTC business model, I think less technical courses is the only way to improve bike safety.

Nah, ban North Americans. Having done a few races in Europe, their courses are (mostly) far more technical than anything in NA.
Europeans know how to handle their bikes (and vehicles too), because they are used to it and get practice.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]
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NordicSkier wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
Given the WTC business model, I think less technical courses is the only way to improve bike safety.

Nah, ban North Americans. Having done a few races in Europe, their courses are (mostly) far more technical than anything in NA.
Europeans know how to handle their bikes (and vehicles too), because they are used to it and get practice.

I beg to differ.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]
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NordicSkier wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
Given the WTC business model, I think less technical courses is the only way to improve bike safety.


Nah, ban North Americans. Having done a few races in Europe, their courses are (mostly) far more technical than anything in NA.
Europeans know how to handle their bikes (and vehicles too), because they are used to it and get practice.




the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]
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NordicSkier wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
Given the WTC business model, I think less technical courses is the only way to improve bike safety.


Nah, ban North Americans. Having done a few races in Europe, their courses are (mostly) far more technical than anything in NA.
Europeans know how to handle their bikes (and vehicles too), because they are used to it and get practice.

yeah us in murica can only turn left on banked roads
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
I was in the first wave, 40-44. And while I was not the fastest descender I was not slow. I had just passed a pack of 4-5 guys and I was going into a hairpin at 29mph after bunny-hopping a speed bump at 33mph...

Why did they choose to send out a slow age group first? Wouldn't it be better to get all the fast athletes out there from the start and then open the gates for the rest?
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [Trigirl357] [ In reply to ]
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Not sure the status of the law esp in France with 'closed roads' but failure to stop at a road traffic collision where there's an injury?

In the UK that's a criminal offence. And just because the roads are trafic closed, doesn't mean other traffic laws (such as stopping at an accident) are also suspended.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [Dbeitel] [ In reply to ]
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Dbeitel wrote:

And since no one had asked yet, I guess Iā€™ll have to do it....HOW IS THE BIKE? šŸ˜³

See my first response after the OP. ;)
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

1) The idiot didn't use his brakes as needed. Plus, one NEVER wants to be NEXT to (or right behind, or passing) someone in a sharp turn in a TT type race format. It was HIS fault that he slammed into you, the fault is ALWAYS on the person behind slamming in to the person in front.

That's on oversimplification. I pass in corners all the time and I have to be next to someone to do that. If you cut across the lane and cut me off, that's on you. Not saying that's the case here, but there are certainly cases where the bike being passed is at fault.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [Thom] [ In reply to ]
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Thom wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:


1) The idiot didn't use his brakes as needed. Plus, one NEVER wants to be NEXT to (or right behind, or passing) someone in a sharp turn in a TT type race format. It was HIS fault that he slammed into you, the fault is ALWAYS on the person behind slamming in to the person in front.


That's on oversimplification. I pass in corners all the time and I have to be next to someone to do that. If you cut across the lane and cut me off, that's on you. Not saying that's the case here, but there are certainly cases where the bike being passed is at fault.


Sure, I follow.

But the person passing has enormous visibility of the situation ahead. While a person in a corner ahead of you and being passed by you has only a vague awareness of what might be happening behind (and to the side of) them. If you pass in a corner, you MUST plan on every possible contingency, including the person ahead of you "cutting you off", not because they dislike you or are trying to block you, but because they simply can't see you. Even on a bike, there are blind spots (well, ... unless you are a horse with eyes on the side of your head ... ).

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
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Last edited by: DarkSpeedWorks: Sep 9, 19 11:08
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [Parkland] [ In reply to ]
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I am quite certain that I have heard in briefings before that in this kind of incidents a racer should be staying with the victim at least to make sure help can be sent or officials alerted. But I guess sadly just not all people are as good as you'd hope they are.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]
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NordicSkier wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
Given the WTC business model, I think less technical courses is the only way to improve bike safety.

Nah, ban North Americans. Having done a few races in Europe, their courses are (mostly) far more technical than anything in NA.
Europeans know how to handle their bikes (and vehicles too), because they are used to it and get practice.

Meanwhile I've seen some right dickheads from Europe riding like right dickheads in Europe.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
M----n wrote:
APKTRI wrote:
.

When will Ironman get their head out of their asses and fix obvious issues like this? Make the World Championships an actual World Championship .


ITU runs the actual world's. WTC is a private corporation.


Are you saying that a jurisdicational global sports governing monopoly is in a better position to run a world championships than a private company. Do we think that Major League Baseball, Tour De France, Tennis Grand Slam events, NBA Championships, Stanley Cup finals are less worthy top world tournaments/sporting events than the associated world championships in any sport? The private corporation world championships (in most case self claimed), are much better quality sporting events than the sporting body monopoly worlds' events. In hockey, no one (except a few random Canadians because our teams can no longer win the Stanley Cup) care about the IIHF Worlds'. The latter tournament is the tournament for those who can't progress in (or never get into) the NHL playoffs.

Dev

Are you saying that a private corporation is going to make decisions in the best interest of competition and the well-being of the athletes, even if those decisions have a significant impact on their bottom line? Like, say, reducing the number of athletes on course and bringing their dollars to host cities? Not happening.

My point was that ITU runs worlds, just like UCI does for cycling. WTC runs Ironman, just like ASO runs Le Tour.

Anyway, in this particular case, no organizing body would have made a difference. Someone overcooked a turn and hit someone. And I would bet dollars to Timbits that there is a a French or German thread on some European tri board cursing out the unpredictable descending skills of all of these foreign flatlander athletes. It's regrettable and shitty, but it happens. Hope the OP recovers quickly.

***
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [BobAjobb] [ In reply to ]
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BobAjobb wrote:
NordicSkier wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
Given the WTC business model, I think less technical courses is the only way to improve bike safety.


Nah, ban North Americans. Having done a few races in Europe, their courses are (mostly) far more technical than anything in NA.
Europeans know how to handle their bikes (and vehicles too), because they are used to it and get practice.


Meanwhile I've seen some right dickheads from Europe riding like right dickheads in Europe.

They may ride like dickheads (what does that even mean?) but they know how to handle a bike.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [BobAjobb] [ In reply to ]
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I donā€™t live in the UK, but I canā€™t imagine one would be criminally prosecuted for failing to stop at an accident involving only participants in a sporting event (think British Grand Prix , Tour of Britain, or any of the Olympic cycling/triathlon events). This accident occurred during an event that bills itself a ā€œWorld Championship.ā€

A few years back, everyone on this forum was outraged when Andrew Starykowicz spent time in an Abu Dhabi prison following an incident at the 2012 Abu Dhabi International Triathlon after colliding with a volunteer while cycling during the race.

So while not stopping is morally reprehensible, I donā€™t see someone being prosecuted for failing to stop and render aid. I would not want to race is such country.

[quote BobAjobb]Not sure the status of the law esp in France with 'closed roads' but failure to stop at a road traffic collision where there's an injury?

In the UK that's a criminal offence. And just because the roads are trafic closed, doesn't mean other traffic laws (such as stopping at an accident) are also suspended.[/quote]
Last edited by: imsparticus: Sep 9, 19 13:49
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I like your point of view Dev.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [M----n] [ In reply to ]
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M----n wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
M----n wrote:
APKTRI wrote:
.

When will Ironman get their head out of their asses and fix obvious issues like this? Make the World Championships an actual World Championship .


ITU runs the actual world's. WTC is a private corporation.


Are you saying that a jurisdicational global sports governing monopoly is in a better position to run a world championships than a private company. Do we think that Major League Baseball, Tour De France, Tennis Grand Slam events, NBA Championships, Stanley Cup finals are less worthy top world tournaments/sporting events than the associated world championships in any sport? The private corporation world championships (in most case self claimed), are much better quality sporting events than the sporting body monopoly worlds' events. In hockey, no one (except a few random Canadians because our teams can no longer win the Stanley Cup) care about the IIHF Worlds'. The latter tournament is the tournament for those who can't progress in (or never get into) the NHL playoffs.

Dev


Are you saying that a private corporation is going to make decisions in the best interest of competition and the well-being of the athletes, even if those decisions have a significant impact on their bottom line? Like, say, reducing the number of athletes on course and bringing their dollars to host cities? Not happening.

My point was that ITU runs worlds, just like UCI does for cycling. WTC runs Ironman, just like ASO runs Le Tour.

Anyway, in this particular case, no organizing body would have made a difference. Someone overcooked a turn and hit someone. And I would bet dollars to Timbits that there is a a French or German thread on some European tri board cursing out the unpredictable descending skills of all of these foreign flatlander athletes. It's regrettable and shitty, but it happens. Hope the OP recovers quickly.

And you would be wrong. No organization owns the exclusive rights to a call it's event a world championship...except for a full ironman, of course, where ITU lost in court to WTC (aka, the Ironman World Championship predates ITUs very existence). In reality, it is the quality of the competition rather than the status of the host that determines the degree to which an event is a true world championship or at least of world championship caliber. Having done four ITU long course worlds and four Ironman 70.3 worlds, I certainly don't think ITU is any better qualified at hosting an event than Ironman. You certainly can't argue that ITU world championships are more competitive than Ironman at long course. And if you think that ITU isn't a money-grubbing enterprise that makes Ironman look like the model of generosity then you aren't paying attention. The truth is that for both organizations need age grouper's money to host their world championships.

It is tiresome to see the constant bashing on Slowtwitch of one or the other's WC events. The fact that there are multiple opportunities for recreational adult athletes to participate in "world championships" is a good thing. If you don't like WTC WC events ... don't participate. Same goes for ITU.

Meanwhile, I wish a complete and speedy recovery to the OP. His race was ruined by a careless and unfeeling athlete that doesn't belong in any race.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [Parkland] [ In reply to ]
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Yes you are correct. After I typed my response to Ed, I went back and re-read the string (It was late and I was hungry after riding all afternoon !). So yes you get the award for the first to ask about his bike.

I apologize

DB
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [M----n] [ In reply to ]
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M----n wrote:
Are you saying that a private corporation is going to make decisions in the best interest of competition and the well-being of the athletes, even if those decisions have a significant impact on their bottom line?

i have not found, in practice, that sports organizations under the olympic umbrella are any more likely to run things for the best interest of the athlete than is a private corporation. they're both whipsawed between the legitimate needs of the athlete and the private ambitions of the org, and of the folks who run or work for the org. beyond that, the ITU lost not once, but twice, when legally trying to enjoin the WTC from calling its races WCs.

otherwise i don't have any quarrel with what you're writing.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Oh man. That sounds terrible. I was once run over by a biker who lost control on a descent (underpass) in the city of Chicago. I was running and he barreled over me without notice. Was not good. Wishing you a speedy recovery.


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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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HuffNPuff wrote:

And you would be wrong. No organization owns the exclusive rights to a call it's event a world championship...except for a full ironman, of course, where ITU lost in court to WTC (aka, the Ironman World Championship predates ITUs very existence). In reality, it is the quality of the competition rather than the status of the host that determines the degree to which an event is a true world championship or at least of world championship caliber. Having done four ITU long course worlds and four Ironman 70.3 worlds, I certainly don't think ITU is any better qualified at hosting an event than Ironman. You certainly can't argue that ITU world championships are more competitive than Ironman at long course. And if you think that ITU isn't a money-grubbing enterprise that makes Ironman look like the model of generosity then you aren't paying attention. The truth is that for both organizations need age grouper's money to host their world championships.

It is tiresome to see the constant bashing on Slowtwitch of one or the other's WC events. The fact that there are multiple opportunities for recreational adult athletes to participate in "world championships" is a good thing. If you don't like WTC WC events ... don't participate. Same goes for ITU.

Meanwhile, I wish a complete and speedy recovery to the OP. His race was ruined by a careless and unfeeling athlete that doesn't belong in any race.

The things that hold private corporations that run a championship to account are players Unions. Not governing bodies. The Governing bodies of Baseball, Basketball, and Football in the US are quite young and are heavily reliant upon the leagues for funding. USSF is the only one that seems to have A lot of power over their sports leagues in that through the powers granted to them by US law, they set standards for the professional leagues in regards to things like Funding and total teams. The NASL (second NASL) lost in court when it tried to get an injunction and retain it's Division 2 status after it had dropped to division 3 for failing to expand to 20 teams or so.

So the only thing that would increase standards for say Ironman to limit race slots at a World Championship so it is "safer" is for there to be an athletes Union. Well, there are very few pros in this sport. And the slots at both 70.3 and 140.6 World Championships seem to be more due to market demand and Ironman wanting to make a buck. Now, having just completed an Ironman branded event in IM 70.3 Traverse City. That was worth the money. It's taken USAT YEARS, YEARS to get to the point of putting on high quality championships. However, I'm not sure they have that kind of capacity to do it every week.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [Toothengineer] [ In reply to ]
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I met the guy on my flight to Munich today who was the first to find the guy who went off the cliff. He said he saw a smashed bike by the guardrail and stopped and looked over, saw him and climbed down the cliff.

They guy survived. Broken femur but he's going to be ok. They sent two helicopters and a roped mountain rescue team to get him.

The man who found him went on to finish the race after he was flown out.

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Last edited by: RowToTri: Sep 10, 19 1:50
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Oh wow; good to hear nothing worse.

How you feeling today.

2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Thom wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:


1) The idiot didn't use his brakes as needed. Plus, one NEVER wants to be NEXT to (or right behind, or passing) someone in a sharp turn in a TT type race format. It was HIS fault that he slammed into you, the fault is ALWAYS on the person behind slamming in to the person in front.


That's on oversimplification. I pass in corners all the time and I have to be next to someone to do that. If you cut across the lane and cut me off, that's on you. Not saying that's the case here, but there are certainly cases where the bike being passed is at fault.


Sure, I follow.

But the person passing has enormous visibility of the situation ahead. While a person in a corner ahead of you and being passed by you has only a vague awareness of what might be happening behind (and to the side of) them. If you pass in a corner, you MUST plan on every possible contingency, including the person ahead of you "cutting you off", not because they dislike you or are trying to block you, but because they simply can't see you. Even on a bike, there are blind spots (well, ... unless you are a horse with eyes on the side of your head ... ).

How is this any different than skiing? If you hit someone in front of you, you were going too fast for the conditions. Period.

I agree you can get close to the other bikers during a turn, but you should be anticipating that someone will go wide just before the turn instead of staying inside the whole time. You can make the pass after the apex and then fly by them if you're the truly faster rider and would have a higher exit speed.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [APKTRI] [ In reply to ]
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APKTRI wrote:
the commentators were saying athletes were allowed to but were told to primairly stay in the right lane.
If true, this is bad. Racers should either have the whole road or not; it shouldn't be fudged like this.


http://www.jt10000.com/
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
I met the guy on my flight to Munich today who was the first to find the guy who went off the cliff. He said he saw a smashed bike by the guardrail and stopped and looked over, saw him and climbed down the cliff.

They guy survived. Broken femur but he's going to be ok. They sent two helicopters and a roped mountain rescue team to get him.

The man who found him went on to finish the race after he was flown out.


That's a great guy!
I 'like' Dev's reasoning here. I'm sure whoever hit you didn't do that intentionally. It sucks, it hurts, but sometimes bad things happens, without anybody intending to do bad stuff. And in a fast, technical descent, with a crowded road, during a race, there is so much to pay attention too, that crashes will happen. It just really sucks you were involved, but right now there's nothing to do about it, and your energy is best spend on recovery and the future. Hope the recovery will go well.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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I'm a descent climber, but terrible at technical descents... i knew that i did qualified at a race that was not super competitive, therefore mid pack at that race was a good result for me. Whistler was really good course for me, Nice not so much... therefore stay up right was my priority for me.

Given the level of the euros (they have home ground advantage and they all qualified in super competitive race)... the only way to make it into top 100 (AG) was to have really good skills and take a lot of chances.

I was in the first wave, I thought the spacing between rider was reasonable given how similar everyone is.

I think i saw the aftermath of 5-7 different crashes on the descent, and there was a lot of people left behind me... so i won't be surprise if they had 20-25 crashes in total. To be perfectly honest, most of those crashes did appear to be users errors (or people hitting other people, which is really bad !!)

I did pre-ride the course, and to be honest, i though they did an OK job with all the race day signs. Few spots could have been better, but more the confusing roundabout and the narrow cones line on the return to T2 (i actually saw a crash there while i was running).


Overall, I think IM did an good job with the bike course (we all knew it as a technical course)... but they did a terrible job with the logistic: relative to North American races, they had fewer volunteers and the one that were their were clearly at their first rodeo.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [AS88] [ In reply to ]
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AS88 wrote:
RowToTri wrote:
I was in the first wave, 40-44. And while I was not the fastest descender I was not slow. I had just passed a pack of 4-5 guys and I was going into a hairpin at 29mph after bunny-hopping a speed bump at 33mph...

Why did they choose to send out a slow age group first? Wouldn't it be better to get all the fast athletes out there from the start and then open the gates for the rest?

What are you talking about? 40-44 is always one of the faster groups. At Wisconsin last weekend they have the second highest number of finishers in the top 10
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
I met the guy on my flight to Munich today who was the first to find the guy who went off the cliff. He said he saw a smashed bike by the guardrail and stopped and looked over, saw him and climbed down the cliff.

They guy survived. Broken femur but he's going to be ok. They sent two helicopters and a roped mountain rescue team to get him.

The man who found him went on to finish the race after he was flown out.

Nice of the guy to stop his race to find the guy who went over the cliff. I wonder how many bikes went by before someone took that action?

How are you doing today? Getting ready for Taupo?
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [chrsc13981] [ In reply to ]
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chrsc13981 wrote:
Wave 4 here the bike the beautiful and challenging, but not suited to funnel 3.5k guys through. For a normal IM 70.3 with larger ability range distribution it might have worked. Downhill passing with guys all over the road just made it sketchy. Watching guys do stupid shit who were no where near podium contention is classic.

This was my assessment as well. I was in Wave 3 (M35-39) and found the descent to be treacherous. As it was that descent was technical enough to demand full attention. Under normal 70.3 distributions of speeds, I would bet the number of people really trying to crush the descent would be fine and there wouldn't be much crowding. But put 3500 people of WC-capability onto it and you have a recipe for disaster. I couldn't believe how many crashed, ambulances, cops directing us around downed riders, etc I saw. I was utterly terrified the whole way down, not for fear of myself losing control, but for fear that someone was going to crash into me from behind with nothing I could do about it. One guy passed me dangerously on the inside of a sweeping turn, blew his rear tire just as he goes by. I heard his carbon wheel go scraping across the pavement as he passed in front of me by inches, and face-planted into the rock wall. I couldn't spare him a second glance because I was 1) trying to get my heart out of my throat at having narrowly avoided a 30+mph crash, 2) because at 30+ mph in a sweeping turn I had no attention to spare for the guy and finally 3) I'm sorry, not sorry, but that was the consequence of a dangerous high speed pass in a turn and he paid a price for it.

That course would have been fine if everyone was on well-handling road bikes and had the skills of a pro-tour rider. But put a bunch of fast amateurs on mostly TT bikes with carbon wheels, who likely have no skills regarding 20 miles of twisting descent, and you have a seriously dangerous situation on your hands. That course was inappropriate for use for this particular race.

I LOVED that bike course. Beautiful and challenging. I wish I had the opportunity to ride it without all the dumbasses around me crashing out. It was a terrible bike course for the WC, though I am sure it's fine for the regular 70.3.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [iamuwere] [ In reply to ]
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iamuwere wrote:


What are you talking about? 40-44 is always one of the faster groups. At Wisconsin last weekend they have the second highest number of finishers in the top 10


Maybe in a local American race but there weren't any Americans in the top 40 for the overall age group race in Nice, so it is hardly relevant . If you want stats on how M40-44 does in a competitive field look at Nice this year or Kona last year; best male 40-44 didn't come top 30 in Nice.

Dunno how it was in Kona but I would be very surprised if anyone from M40-44 placed in the top 10.

Now that we cleared that up, do you understand what I am talking about?
Last edited by: AS88: Sep 10, 19 7:56
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
I met the guy on my flight to Munich today who was the first to find the guy who went off the cliff. He said he saw a smashed bike by the guardrail and stopped and looked over, saw him and climbed down the cliff.

They guy survived. Broken femur but he's going to be ok. They sent two helicopters and a roped mountain rescue team to get him.

The man who found him went on to finish the race after he was flown out.

Wow, I did the old Nice race years ago and a pro went over into trees. We heard he did not make it though after 2 weeks.

I hope you're doing better. I know the sting of not finishing has made it so much worse and one cannot fathom why a fellow athlete would do what the other guy did. Hopefully karma will treat both of you as it should and you'll be back stronger. Good luck.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [M----n] [ In reply to ]
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ITU runs the actual world's. WTC is a private corporation.


And there in lies the challenge with this.

ITU is the world governing body for the sport of triathlon and IRONMAN, owned by Wanda, is a for profit, now publicly traded, Event Management and marketing company. There is nothing wrong with any of this. IRONMAN organizes and puts on fabulous and amazing events - some of the absolute best endurance sports races/events in the world. They have been absolutely brilliant marketers of the IRONMAN brand!

But here in Nice they may have overstepped themselves a bit - with too challenging a course and perhaps too many athletes in the race and on the course. The move to two days - one for the women and one for the men, was helpful, but now if they are going to have races on course like this (which in one way is a good thing - see below), they probably need to look at limiting the AG fields.

A few years ago, I was Race Announcing at a large Gran Fondo. Simon Whitfield was one of the events VIPs and Ambassadors. It so happened it was pouring rain at the start. I had Simon up on the stand, with me doing a quick interview before the start. I asked him if he had any tips, for the riders, waiting for the start for riding in the rain. He said "Avoid the triathletes"!

That was meant as a bit of a joke, but Simon was right, triathletes are not known for their bike handling expertise. As fate would have it I was on some of those back-roads just outside of Nice in the Maritime Alps the week leading into race week. Many very tricky, high speed downhills. Tight turns. Narrow roads with lots of what they call in Europe "Road Furniture" - round-abouts, speed bumps, bollards etc . . I was a bit worried then, from what I saw, and unfortunately, their were many crashes and incidents.

For no-drafting racing to be legit and fair, they NEED challenging terrain - lots of uphills to break things up, but unfortunately, what goes up has to come down, and this is the, if you will excuse the bad play on words, unfortunate down-side of this.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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To the OP - So sorry to learn of this accident. That is awful how the guy just left you. I hope you are feeling better!

I was the last wave to go off in the women's race (45-49). And I was shocked at how fast middle-aged moms were barreling down the descent. One wrong move and you're going to be messed up pretty badly. I'll admit I have gotten really slow on the descents even with a bike racing background from 20 years ago. This year I had 3 friends (all accomplished IM athletes) have significant bike crashes where they ended up in the hospital. And I crashed badly in 1997. Now at age 49 I'm like a little old lady on technical descents (mostly I'm scared of the other athletes who sit on the trainer and hardly ride outside). So I rode down the descent this past Saturday very slowly and carefully. Doing the math I lost about 15 minutes to the women who had comparable times going up the climb. But I don't care. I wasn't going to podium or come close so why take chances and ride dangerously?? I saw two bad crashes with women on the side of the road and ambulances. I was rattled and really worried about them. I knew the men's race would also have some bad accidents. (hate that I was right)

While I thought the bike course was insanely epic and amazing, it wasn't the safest choice for a field of athletes who spend most of their time riding indoors with their power meters.

Death is easy....peaceful. Life is harder.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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"what goes up has to come down"

Guess a two transition race could avoid this, and it sounds like lots of crashes and medical bills and maybe worse.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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I wish you a quick recovery and am glad you weren't hurt worse.

As someone who hasn't done a WTC race in more than a decade but will likely always say my Kona finishes were the highlights of my athletic endeavors, put me on the list of those who think they should reduce the size field to 1500 each day. Of course, that would hurt IM's pocketbook unless they doubled the entry fee.

It's not just because of the Nice course. Even if the course is less technical, 3000+ appears to be too many to avoid significant positioning issues on the bike.

Slowman, how about a poll on what folks think the field size should be at future 70.3 Worlds?
Last edited by: Mark Lemmon: Sep 10, 19 11:17
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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FWIW, I think the guy who hit you should be banned from racing for life.
His decision made you crash and endangered your life AND he didn't stay, just because of his fucking race.
If I were in a race and saw someone crash, and in pain on the ground, I'd stay until medical support arrives.
What the fuck is wrong with people??
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [70Trigirl] [ In reply to ]
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70Trigirl wrote:
To the OP - So sorry to learn of this accident. That is awful how the guy just left you. I hope you are feeling better!

I was the last wave to go off in the women's race (45-49). And I was shocked at how fast middle-aged moms were barreling down the descent. One wrong move and you're going to be messed up pretty badly. I'll admit I have gotten really slow on the descents even with a bike racing background from 20 years ago. This year I had 3 friends (all accomplished IM athletes) have significant bike crashes where they ended up in the hospital. And I crashed badly in 1997. Now at age 49 I'm like a little old lady on technical descents (mostly I'm scared of the other athletes who sit on the trainer and hardly ride outside). So I rode down the descent this past Saturday very slowly and carefully. Doing the math I lost about 15 minutes to the women who had comparable times going up the climb. But I don't care. I wasn't going to podium or come close so why take chances and ride dangerously?? I saw two bad crashes with women on the side of the road and ambulances. I was rattled and really worried about them. I knew the men's race would also have some bad accidents. (hate that I was right)

While I thought the bike course was insanely epic and amazing, it wasn't the safest choice for a field of athletes who spend most of their time riding indoors with their power meters.

I am going to "slightly disagree with you" about dumbing down race courses because so many athletes do all their riding on trainers (not controlling their back wheel which is the single most important part of controlling your bike on a descent...you steer with your core, hips and legs and counter steer with your arms, not steer with your hands)....in any case, courses should not be dumbed down because idiots spend all their time on trainers because they are scared of being hit while outside. If you're too scared of being hit outside and spend all your time on a trainer, then you're just a friggin hazard to everyone around you when you show up to race and have not practiced riding outside.

Riding outside is generally pretty safe (50% of us will die from a heart attack or cancer before we die from biking) and in my life I have had two life altering accidents (I got run over by a bus last year in a kind of freak accident)....but I still think that if you want to actually do races on real bikes, then you better be riding outside and not spend your time on trainer and show up and be a hazard to everyone on race day....or pack your bike up to your basement and just race in your virtual Zwift world, but please don't show up to a real race.....especially a race with technical descending.

By the way, when I say "you" in this post, I am not talkingg to 70Trigirl, I am talking to all the people who just train on trainers and show up at races and do stupid things on real bikes in the real world. Once in a while shit happens out on the road (Lance crashed 3 times in his final Tour de France, he almost never crashed before), but there is a whole pile of stupid things that happens at races because guys and girls can't stay upright on their bikes without two prongs of a trainer holding up the rear axle.

I've done Ironman France and as others said in a non championship race, it was clear sailing most of the way. I actually Kona qualified because I out descended a bunch of people in my age group by 10-15 minutes. But I have something like 30ish years of technical descending riding during my trips to Europe and there was generally a ton of space to pass when I did IM France. I would think if you put 15 people of my descending ability together each trying to out descend each other, we'd turn into a hazard to slower riders and probably to each other if one of the guys did something idiotic. But generally good descenders don't do idiotic things around good descenders, because we respect each other and the risk. The problem arises when you mix good descenders and less good descenders and you get massive speed differentials. Thus the no passing zones at Oceanside and IM Tremblant. I get why they do it and it really pisses me off that we don't get to race the descents, but it is what it is.

But I think part of the problem in Nice was people on tri bikes. Lots of people come on ST and ask what is the fastest bike for IM France and for sure if you can handle a tri bike like Lance or Wolfgang Deitrich or Sebi Kienle, its by far the fastest option. But for most of you, on this forum in a championship race, you can't handle your tri bike at speed with people around you and speed differentials...all those aero base bars with no up turn....well on a switchback with your base bar pointing down hill and your sweaty hand sliding off the top, you have nothing to counter steer against and your body wants to fly over the top of the bars. Sebi knows how to steer that bike and he's not around that many people. The rest of the age groupers are not Sebi.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [Mark Lemmon] [ In reply to ]
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+1

Never going to happen though unless high-profile AGers start declining slots due to the crowds.

Personally, I would pay more for a smaller field, but then again, I wouldn't want the best athletes priced out either. And I realize these races wouldn't exist unless WTC makes a profit

Having large fields like this isn't only dangerous, the results are also kind of a farce because you have to employ some drafting and blocking tactics to have a chance at the podium (yes, I saw this from a bunch of the top AG guys on the ascent and the descent. No one ever gets a blocking penalty even though it is probably the most frequent offense).

A legit WC would have super small fields that would provide adequate, pro-field-like spacing. I would probably not qualify very often in that case, but so be it.



Mark Lemmon wrote:
I wish you a quick recovery and am glad you weren't hurt worse.

As someone who hasn't done a WTC race in more than a decade but will likely always say my Kona finishes were the highlights of my athletic endeavors, put me on the list of those who think they should reduce the size field to 1500 each day. Of course, that would hurt IM's pocketbook unless they doubled the entry fee.

It's not just because of the Nice course. Even if the course is less technical, 3000+ appears to be too many to avoid significant positioning issues on the bike.

Slowman, how about a poll on what folks think the field size should be at future 70.3 Worlds?

Strava
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [sch340] [ In reply to ]
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See, in bike racing you've got a follow car of some kind behind the pack or it's a parking lot crit. The assistance is there.

On a point 2 point tri, the other athlete could be the only assistance for some time.

I see no difference between a criminal vehicular hit and run and this. Adding the incentive of a triathlon just adds selfish motive to not stay at the scene.

We don't need people in these sports who will leave an injured person. Given that, I'd say dole out a year ban.

Incidents involving touches of bodies or wheels happens. Incidents implying fault even. However, those incidents are part of the sport. But.......leaving injured people behind is NOT part of that.

So yes, there is recourse here. Finding out who, then reporting the who to the organization, and asking the organization to do something. Even if they do nothing.

I wouldn't want that person in a race with me. Hitting you is one thing, but they might be the one that leaves you for dead!
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
See, in bike racing you've got a follow car of some kind behind the pack or it's a parking lot crit. The assistance is there.

On a point 2 point tri, the other athlete could be the only assistance for some time.

I see no difference between a criminal vehicular hit and run and this. Adding the incentive of a triathlon just adds selfish motive to not stay at the scene.

We don't need people in these sports who will leave an injured person. Given that, I'd say dole out a year ban.

Incidents involving touches of bodies or wheels happens. Incidents implying fault even. However, those incidents are part of the sport. But.......leaving injured people behind is NOT part of that.

So yes, there is recourse here. Finding out who, then reporting the who to the organization, and asking the organization to do something. Even if they do nothing.

I wouldn't want that person in a race with me. Hitting you is one thing, but they might be the one that leaves you for dead!

Everyone is getting on here and acting like they are a saint.

I call BS on most of you because I have been the one on the side of the road and had dozens of riders whizz right by, who saw what happened with the road painted red in blood and just put their heads down and figured that someone else would deal with the fallen athlete and their race was more important. Almost none of you stop when I rider is down.

Most of the time, I don't really want to stop either. It takes every ounce of my humanity to grow up and realize its a mom/dad/husband/wife that needs help before I can come to my senses...and I've been the victim at the other end and I still have this racing priority when I am in racing mode....that's what makes most of us racers and if you ever bike race, you just leave the fallen/crashed athletes behind. That's bike racing. It just is. The race goes on. Its brutal but its actually part of bike racing. The race almost never stops for a crash. Remember when Fabio Casertelli hit the rock parapet on the Col d'Aspin in the Tour De France 1995. Well the race went on. Casertelli died and left a newborn son.




The next stage was neutralized but the stage that he died in just kept rolling on. The stage after the neutral stage. Team Motorola crossed the line together



Lance was on a mission and took every risk on the descent imaginable to take the race win.



I was in an Olympic tri 2 weeks ago. Multi loop race. A rider went down before I got to a certain point. I'll tell you what I did. I slowed down, but honestly I wanted to keep racing. There was another person (not a rider, I don't know who) tending to the fallen athlete. I went on with my race but at every aid station after kept telling the volunteers there is an athlete down. The people racing around me, said NOTHING. At the far end of the course I stopped and said, "you might want to get an ambulance out there if you have not". Luckily they got the message from other aid stations (not sure if it way mine or someone elses). By the next loop, I arrive to the spot (4x10km loop, so its only 16ish minutes later) and the ambulance is just getting there. No one wants to stop to make room for the ambulance. Everyone wants to keep racing (as did I, so its not like I am some sort of saint).

NO ONE WANTED TO STOP THEIR RACE TO HELP A FALLEN ATHLETE.

and this was at a local Olympic tri. Everyone was more concerned about their time on sportstats than the poor guy on the ground.

I'm sorry, but I am not buying all the saints on here saying they would just subserve their races to give primary care to another athlete. Most people don't in a race. They keep racing and expect the race staff to take care of the other guy.

To Ed, you'll be OK, just move on. I don't think we gain anything by hunting the guy down and asking for the "revenge" that most people on here are asking for (ban him, shame him, whatever), because I BET that if they were in the same situation in the race as the other guy with you, not knowing exactly the extent of your injury, and with adrenaline through the roof, they pick up their bike and move on. What would I do ? I don't know. I don't think any of us can sit here as keyboard warriors and know what we would do. As a keyboard warrior my answer is, "the right thing to do is to look after Ed on that spot". But in the heat of a race, maybe trying to chase "an only important to me top 20 in my age group", I don't think my thought process would be so clear.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I've also been the guy on the ground in an Olympic, taken away in an ambulance. Only one that stopped was my friend. In my case though the guy that caused it was also down and hid bike destroyed and he couldn't go anywhere. But TBH I am glad he was there, because he knew what to do after a crash and he kept me calm until ambulance arrived (injuries were quite bad but no head injury thank god)

I do think there is a difference between someone actually causing a crash, and going down as a result, and walking over to the one you crashed out... and people whizzing by after the fact. I think here he had a responsibility to give up his own race and see that Ed was attended to. I have seen crashes but to date by the time I am there someone else has gotten there and I have no relevant training, when that has happened I notify the next race representative I see.

I would like to think if I was first on the scene I would stop. But have not been tested
Last edited by: ChrisM: Sep 10, 19 12:51
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
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ChrisM wrote:
I've also been the guy on the ground in an Olympic, taken away in an ambulance. Only one that stopped was my friend. In my case though the guy that caused it was also down and hid bike destroyed and he couldn't go anywhere. But TBH I am glad he was there, because he knew what to do after a crash and he kept me calm until ambulance arrived (injuries were quite bad but no head injury thank god)

I do think there is a difference between someone actually causing a crash, and going down as a result, and walking over to the one you crashed out... and people whizzing by after the fact. I think here he had a responsibility to give up his own race and see that Ed was attended to. I have seen crashes but to date by the time I am there someone else has gotten there and I have no relevant training, when that has happened I notify the next race representative I see.

I would like to think if I was first on the scene I would stop. But have not been tested

I think the other problem here is we have a sport where people come from different backgrounds:

  1. Biking, you don't stop for the fallen.....the race goes on
  2. Soccer, it does not stop...unless the ref stops it. You ignore who is down
  3. Hockey....ignore who is down tell the play is called
  4. Swimming....the scenario is not applicable
  5. Running...in track if someone cramps up and crumples in their lane, or in a 1500m get stepped on and spiked, the race just goes on after the bumping, grinding and falling. No one cares about the person who falls. The race goes on. The person who fell, that's their problem
  6. Football...play goes on till play ends and ref blows whistle
  7. Rugby...same deal
  8. XC skiing....the race goes on every time somoene else crashed. They could slam their head into a tree on a 60 kph descent and its just like bike racing...the race goes one
  9. Speed skating, short and long track....you keep hammering after the other person crashes.
  10. Golf/tennis....not really applicable


I'm trying to find one sport that anyone does competitively where you actually stop and halt the competition if someone gets hurt. I don't think there is a sport where ahtletes on their own halt the competition. The ref either stops the game or the game goes on. This is what most people are trained in as athletes before they even get to triathlon. Its no surprise there is minimal Sainthood out on the race courses. These instincts are hard to break

So if you put athletes from a variety of competitive backgrounds in a worlds race, I actually don't expect anyone to stop, I really don't....If I crash, cross my fingers and pray that someone infoms the next aid station. Heck maybe for all we know the athlete that crashed into Ed went to the next aid station to get help because that's people a more useful thing to do than just stand there and fake like you can render medical support when most of us cannot ( I have my training in the military and can render rudimentary life saving stuff to a mate, but I am no medic....I think most of us are in that boat).

I realize I am taking a position that many of you may both disagree with while finding uncomfortable...I kind of feel like Col Jessop calling it like it is in a few good men, "you want the truth...."
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Hey, no movie quotes !
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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The huge diffeence in virtually all the other sports is that help is immediately to hand from non-competitors , eg doctors/ physios at the side of the pitch at Football, rugby etc.
In cycle racing (at the upper end at least) there's support cars just behind.
Long course Triathlon however you're out on your own, some times in the arse end of nowhere. That places more responsibility on others who are around in the race.

Oh - and I have stopped to help in my 1st full distance race. It cost me 10 mins.
My deal with the guy concerned was it was we would say it was 20+ minutes if my buddy caught me šŸ˜
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Dev, I a bit surprised at you position on this. And its true it might all stem for your opening sentence:

I think the other problem here is we have a sport where people come from different backgrounds:



The background that I come from is one that I recognize that even at a '70.3 World Championship' event, there are certain priorities that take precedent. Even in the middle of battle, we must remember that the welfare of people is paramount - this is a AGE GROUP race. Its middle aged Athletics, that is just bragging rights.

The individual that hit Ed, knew he messed up. He was off the bike, and yelled that it was actually Ed's fault. With Ed in a heap, and his bike broken, there is no way he did'nt know Ed was messed up, bad. How the hell do you not, as a rational PERSON, not expect him to stay and help. Instead he just leaves....

My Background would not even consider leaving under those circumstances. Anything else is just Criminal.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Dev

I think your comment about it being in the heat of the race is important. It was likely a split second decision that caused the accident and another split decision not to stop. Given the descent, once 5 seconds had passed, stopping wasnt really an option anymore. While Iā€™m not defending this guy (and like to think I would stop!) i agree that context matters and itā€™s easy to say behind a keyboard with plenty of time to think about it that we would all stop.

Iā€™ve been on the receiving end that resulted in a broken hip. I was pissed, but moved on. Regardless, I hope OP heals well!! It does suck.
Last edited by: DFW_Tri: Sep 10, 19 14:33
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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He fell too.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Hmmm I guess I did read that above, but forgot. Again, not that I was saying this guy was ā€œrightā€ before, but That does change things in my opinion. Thatā€™s makes it much more deliberate. Still heat of the moment, somewhat; he may have been stunned, like you. But, he had a clear chance to regroup, look at you, make a decision about his next move. etc. thatā€™s a bit different than blowing by an injured person at 40 mph. Anyways, it sucks for you for so many reasons. And nothing will change that. Speedy recovery!
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:


Everyone is getting on here and acting like they are a saint
Quote:
.

Many years ago in Penticton.during the bike leg of the Peach Classic Triathlon,I saw a forlorn looking young pro on the side of the road with a broken chain.I slowed,turned around and gave him my chain breaker and told him to just give it to Steve King when he finished the race.

Turns out it was a young Jonnyo....

I must be a saint to stop and help someone from Quebec.. :-)
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
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I'd like to think that would stop in a situation like this but honestly I'm just a different person when I'm racing, not a total asshole but dangerously close. Not proud of it - I haven't been tested yet so hopefully I'll do the right thing.

"They know f_ck-all over at Slowtwitch"
- Lionel Sanders
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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DFW_Tri wrote:
Hmmm I guess I did read that above, but forgot. Again, not that I was saying this guy was ā€œrightā€ before, but That does change things in my opinion. Thatā€™s makes it much more deliberate. Still heat of the moment, somewhat; he may have been stunned, like you. But, he had a clear chance to regroup, look at you, make a decision about his next move. etc. thatā€™s a bit different than blowing by an injured person at 40 mph. Anyways, it sucks for you for so many reasons. And nothing will change that. Speedy recovery!

I have to wonder if there were other people around that may have been in a better position to help. If not then I'll agree that this offender is just pure bad news.

I am prettttty confident I'd stop, but as soon as someone with a phone or with expertise showed up I'd be outta there. Not like I'd be of any help medically beyond "pressure on wound" type stuff for a conscious person.

Too old to go pro but doing it anyway
http://instagram.com/tgarvey4
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [MrRabbit] [ In reply to ]
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Obviously I did get help. And pretty quickly. And since I was on my back I could not see if or when he left. But when I asked the people helping me about the guy that hit me, they did not know that I had been hit and they said he must have left.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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I don't mean to say I'd assume you'd get help and bail. But once I was confident you were getting the best care in the moment and there was nothing I could do to help, then I'd go. I'd just be clutter.

Really unfortunate, and it sounds like the guy was way in the wrong to me. I hope you recover fast and well. Sorry some people suck at this sport.

Too old to go pro but doing it anyway
http://instagram.com/tgarvey4
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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In response to devashish_paul

Sailing maybe
ā€œThereā€™s a code amongst thieves out there,ā€ said Ken Read, who skippered PUMA Ocean Racingā€™s il Mostro team to a second-place finish in the 2008-09 Volvo. ā€œOne minute youā€™re trying to beat the guy at all costs, the next youā€™re his life raft.ā€

https://www.wsj.com/...high-seas-1418936913
Last edited by: Pmth95: Sep 10, 19 16:38
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [Pmth95] [ In reply to ]
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Back in 2008 I was competing in World Freeskiing Championships here in Alaska. Skiers go in time trial sort of format , though runs are not timed but judged on difficulty, fluidity, aggression etc (kind of like figure skating, but that is another thread topic).

Anyway a skier couple guys ahead of me hits big cliff, lands wrong , tomahawks into outhouse sized rock... lights out, game over for him.

The organizers canceled the rest of the day but everyone voted to go back up the next day and finish event.

This scenario is tangently related to OP but it makes you wonder what the point is , risk vs reward for any of these endeavors. We all convinced ourselves that the guy ā€˜would want us to finishā€™ and ā€˜ he died doing what he lovedā€™.

Iā€™m not so sure about that.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [JYoung] [ In reply to ]
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JYoung wrote:
Hey, no movie quotes !
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry to hear this Ed. I was following you Sunday and wondered what happened. Hoped it was mechanical only. Heal up and try to be optimistic about how much worse things could have gone.

Thereā€™s no excuse for hitting anyone from behind. Wholly on the closing rider and if u have any knowledge of the course that spot In Carros is not a place for passing.

My wife raced Saturday and had the opposite start position. Last wave:( She is a wicked descender and was obstructed the entire downhill by side by side descending riders. She did benefit that a moto came along and started helping to clear out those blocking.

It is a great course and wonderful venue. Sorry you werenā€™t able to finish or enjoy your last day or two here:(
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [Fuller] [ In reply to ]
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Fuller wrote:
I'd like to think that would stop in a situation like this but honestly I'm just a different person when I'm racing, not a total asshole but dangerously close. Not proud of it - I haven't been tested yet so hopefully I'll do the right thing.

I guess only a few of us are willing to admit that we become dangerously close to being assholes while racing, but the reality that I've seen out there, is that the majority once racing turn into exactly that person. You see it all the time in swims with the mass start kicking and punching that never happens in real life! In any case, I don't think its worth judging a fellow competitor based on a split second bad decision in racing. Any of us can turn into that person, even though here on the keyboard, or in a cafe we are all civil to each other (well, minus the obligatory ST forum name calling etc).

At the moment that the guy smashed into Ed, he "felt" Ed was in the wrong. Ed has no eyes in the back of his head so we know that Ed was in the right, but it does not matter what we know now, at that moment he felt Ed was wrong, was angry, picked up his bike and left because he THOUGHT that it was Ed's fault so why should he stick around/ He made that bad decision with adrenaline pumping and with his race being his primary filter. Its not the right thing, but it was his reaction at the time. As DFW_tri said, once 5 seconds (or more like 30 seconds) down the road even if he realized he was wrong, it's too late to go back up.

Ed, my suggestion is to move on and forgive the guy for his bad reaction. He was not thinking clearly. There is no way he wanted to hurt you. None of us want to hurt another competitor (even the person who reacts in the water with a retaliatory punch on account of bodies bumping is just trying to signal to the bumper to get away, not too hurt the bumper). At that moment he was selfishly thinking about his own race, but racing is inherently selfish, so that's the primary mindset that we need to pull our minds out of when someone is hurt. Its harder to do than most on here are making out. If it was easy to do, EVERYONE WOULD STOP FOR A DOWNED RIDER until medical aid come, but almost everyone keeps racing and almost no one goes to the next aid station to ask for help (and slow down their own race).

I liked the sailing analogy that one of you guys brought up. I think it is a great one. I would like to think we can all behave like sailors and one moment try to beat the other person but at the next moment be their first line of medical support. Maybe this is required "pre race briefing" and cultural indoctrination into our sport. Right now, there is no norm for it. If there was I would not keep seeing tons of people keep on racing every time a rider is down (a few times it was me, in many races its others.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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So I'm sitting here in an arm chair at 4am because it's to painful to lie flat to sleep. I definitely appreciate your point of view, Dev. I'm not the one calling for criminal charges or banning. But I would like to know who it was and get an understanding of how they were riding. Did they get a penalty and were trying to make up for it with an extra-dangerous descent? There were TONS of guys in the penalty tent at the top of Col de Vence.

You've made several posts admonishing me to not seek revenge or punishment, but I don't think I have once stated on this thread that is what I want.

Edit: I know he obviously did not intend to run into me or hurt me. It caused him to crash too and risked his own race and health. He did make a conscious decision to ride recklessly or beyond his capability putting others at risk and for that he can be blamed. And as for leaving, since he crashed it's not like 5 seconds later he was too far down the road. He was standing over me.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Last edited by: RowToTri: Sep 11, 19 4:00
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Dev,


You are obviously a very bright guy, and you add so much to the forum, but your below statement is just plain dumb. If an activity leads to ā€œtwo life altering accidentsā€ I would hardly consider it ā€œpretty safe.ā€ At least not over the long haul. Racing on a bike designed to go fast is a relatively high risk activity as your (and my) accident record demonstrates.


ā€œRiding outside is generally pretty safe (50% of us will die from a heart attack or cancer before we die from biking) and in my life I have had two life altering accidents (I got run over by a bus last year in a kind of freak accident)....but I still think that if you want to actually do races on real bikes, then you better be riding outside and not spend your time on trainer and show up and be a hazard to everyone on race day....or pack your bike up to your basement and just race in your virtual Zwift world, but please don't show up to a real race.....especially a race with technical descending.ā€


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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Ed, another ST thread that took off on its own!!! Hope you are doing better and better, sounds like everything will heal back to 100%, and of course bikes are bikes, just an excuse to replace and/or upgrade your front end!

When I first read your report, it brought back almost exact memories I had in Catalina Island one year, only we were lapping slower riders. I too was braking into a hair pin turn, and out of no where some guy wraps his arms around me and we go flying to the ground, him on top, while I slide on the pavement. IT was such a shock and happened so quick, I had no idea what the hell happened. Thought maybe someone jumped out of a tree on top of me even. But the dude apparently hit a bump, knocked his arms off his bars, so he could not brake behind me, so his survival instinct said to just grab the guy in front to break his fall..

Like you I was pretty pissed at the time, I was able to bend my bars, and ride one legged back to T2, and even hobbled/jogged the run. Figured I might heal a bit better if I didn't let everything real stiff, turned out I had a separated shoulder too..

So not much to add, except the anger you feel towards this guy will fade, and one day it is just a story to tell, when someone asks about that scar..I understand you are not holding some of the vitriol in this thread at this guy, good on you for that, it serves no purpose. I never got to talk to my guys either, he of course had a soft landing and got back and continued on too. For about 10 seconds after I actually figured out what happened, I just wanted to punch him out, but that faded quickly and it was time to just do what I could to get help, and heal...
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Biking: actually riders do stop, especially mountain biking, but in my 20 years of mass start racing road, mountain, cross and gravel the rule I have observed is people stop/assist for riders down. And even for flats and mechanicals where the rider is clearly fine- you hear a chorus of "need anything?" going by. I have given up tubes, CO2 ect in races before to people I don't know. Even in Xterra this is common in my personal experience.

In Tri- with the strong "no outside assistance" rule, often very large bike fields, roving moto's ect, it is easy to see how most racers could logically think "Oh they got this covered" whereas the same person in a mountain bike race would automatically check.

While I find Triathletes on average to be terrifyingly bad bike handlers in traffic (lack of practice, nature of TT bikes, red mist of racing, and fatigue probably all play roles), I do not find them any less altruistic. In fact- in pre-race transition I find them to be more than willing to help complete strangers, beginners with a spare set of goggles, water bottle ect.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for sharing your story. My anger at the guy is already fading but I think I will always be disappointed to not be able to see what I could have done that day. While I certainly was not going to be at the top of the AG, I was having the strongest bike segment I'd ever had, I felt great and I was having so much FUN.

I think the travel has put some extra strain on me as the pain has increased significantly starting last night. Going to the Ortho today and hopefully he'll confirm that nothing serious is wrong.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Dev

Since the Sailing Analogy was brought up a couple of times, I will add to it. I knew Ken back in the day, we traded tacks on the race course many times, and even had a few beers together. He was/is a fierce competitor on the water. Yet the article clearly puts into perspective his regard for his fellow competitors and friends - at that level many sailors know each other.

And yes, pre-event at the Skippers Meeting it is generally emphasized that safety and sportsmanship is of paramount importance.

And to give the example, at a North American Championships I was racing my boat, a J/22 in Galveston Bay. Long story short, one of the competitors fell overboard going downwind ( with spinnakers up). Most of the fleet passed him by, and he had essentially given up hope. I happened to see him and spun around to pluck him out of the Bay, losing many places in the race. Turns out it was a buddy of mine ! Later on, over one of many beers, he admitted that he had given up hope and was about to go under. Afterwards, the Race Committee, upon hearing the story and recognizing the places I had lost, issued redress, and had my standings improved.

So, the moral of the story is that stopping to aid a fellow competitor that is hurt or in trouble- no matter what the circumstances are - is what we have to do. As athletes we are fiercely competitive but should respect our fellow athletes by giving aid when required - no question.

db
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I think you're off base with some of your criticisms. My position is pretty clear and I bet it's shared by most. I'd 100% stop if I was the only person around. And as soon as I felt like I wasn't useful I'd be gone. Sooner the better for all parties. I'm no doctor.

And your complaint that no one around you was yelling at the aid stations that someone was down? Well if I was cycling near a guy yelling that they're was someone in need of help I'd keep my mouth shut so people could understand him. Maybe the ones out of earshot of you were doing the same. In fact they likely were.

Racers can be decent humans too.

Too old to go pro but doing it anyway
http://instagram.com/tgarvey4
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [MrRabbit] [ In reply to ]
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Very sorry to hear about your crash, RowToTri. I was amazed at how many unnecessary risks people were taking - I was no where near the front of the 30-34 AG, and many around me were not either, so don't see why the risk was so needed, especially when you can tell most had never even tried.

I rode the course twice prior to race day, and can honestly say (with data to back up) I was able to descend faster without other reckless guys around me. I am not a technical descender like some of the gents on the course who were riding well in the 2:30-2:45 range, but also know my limits.

Saw a few gents in stretchers with heads bandaged up - one was on the left side of the road near the cliff on the back part of the Col De Vence. When I went by there was a lot of blood, but luckily the first responders were there and directing racers to slow down and stay to the right when approaching the blind corner.

Speedy recovery to you my friend.

IG: NCGregory8778
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [Dbeitel] [ In reply to ]
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Dbeitel wrote:
Dev

Since the Sailing Analogy was brought up a couple of times, I will add to it. I knew Ken back in the day, we traded tacks on the race course many times, and even had a few beers together. He was/is a fierce competitor on the water. Yet the article clearly puts into perspective his regard for his fellow competitors and friends - at that level many sailors know each other.

And yes, pre-event at the Skippers Meeting it is generally emphasized that safety and sportsmanship is of paramount importance.

And to give the example, at a North American Championships I was racing my boat, a J/22 in Galveston Bay. Long story short, one of the competitors fell overboard going downwind ( with spinnakers up). Most of the fleet passed him by, and he had essentially given up hope. I happened to see him and spun around to pluck him out of the Bay, losing many places in the race. Turns out it was a buddy of mine ! Later on, over one of many beers, he admitted that he had given up hope and was about to go under. Afterwards, the Race Committee, upon hearing the story and recognizing the places I had lost, issued redress, and had my standings improved.

So, the moral of the story is that stopping to aid a fellow competitor that is hurt or in trouble- no matter what the circumstances are - is what we have to do. As athletes we are fiercely competitive but should respect our fellow athletes by giving aid when required - no question.

db

Thanks for sharing this for racing. I've been around the block in triathlons and generally there is not much help going on for downed riders. I am just calling what I have seen out on the race courses. Can we do better. For sure, I have tried doing better but if the general etiquette is "we all stop to help" then it just would be what we do. But that's not what is going on at races out there today...at least no universally!
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Well, i think there is a difference between "stop to help" and "stop because you hit someone"

Personally, if the guy is moving, i'm not stoping, but i will tell (probably stop) the first person in a real position to help (ie: with a phone at a minimum)... if the guy is not moving... then it's different.

If you hit someone, your race is over and you have to stop until the person is on their way to hospital, otherwise you are just a bad human...
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [benleg] [ In reply to ]
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Hello benleg and All,

Various sources.....



If you start to die on Mount Everest, you're probably on your own. There are rare instances of people going on rescue missions up the mountain, but for the most part, they're simply not feasible. There's no way to transport someone down from that high and no way to get them warm again, and attempting to help is likely to result in the rescuer dying as well. So, even if you're conscious, talking, and asking for help, people know there's nothing they can do, and they'll likely leave you.

David Sharp learned this the hard way. Sharp was trying to climb Everest in 2006 without a team or bottled oxygen. He became exhausted and stopped to rest, and then became frozen in place, in a seated position. At least 40 climbers passed him while he was sitting there, and some even spoke to him on their way up. No attempts were made to rescue him, however, and descending climbers found there was nothing they could do. This lack of effort is still criticized to this day.

===========================================

The debate around ethics on Everest has raged since 2006, when an estimated 40 climbers passed a dying British mountaineer, David Sharp, without stopping. A week later a US climber, Don Mazur, and his team gave up their own summit bid to co-ordinate the rescue of an abandoned Australian, Lincoln Hall.

He survived. On the weekend the Shuttleworths reached the summit, an Israeli climber, Nadav Ben Yehuda, carried a Turkish-born American climber, Aydin Irmak, to safety on his back for eight hours. So should the Shuttleworths have stopped and tried to help?

There are no formal guidelines issued to climbers, and we don't know the risk it might have meant for their own lives.

But can it ever be right, in the words of mountain leaders Chris and Simon Holloway, for climbers to "carry on to the summit, while there are living people dying behind them"? Ben Yehuda, a former soldier, described his decision to stop as "automatic".

For others, it plainly isn't. In an era when climbing Everest has become a form of extreme tourism open to anyone with $10,000, has human life come to count for less than the fulfillment of a personal ambition?

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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 In an era when climbing Everest has become a form of extreme tourism open to anyone with $10,000, //

I want to know who gets to climb Everest for only 10k. Plane flight and hotel just at the beginning and end probably costs that much. I'm thinking that on a budget, maybe some can do it for $50 to 60k?? About the same as getting into Kona, if you use eBay...
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe he did not finish the bike or dropped out at the run. That will narrow down the field for you some. If you remember what he looks like you could scour the photos to see if you recognize him. Not much help. Hope you find him and you heal well.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I agree 100% with you Dev. What I saw (in the last wave) was 90% or more did not know how to really ride their bike and it was their inability to ride that caused the accidents. That course is not technical in the least. All the switchbacks were easily seen and the gradient was never more the 6-7%.

I think this course was the perfect example to show how the drive to ride indoors has turned triathletes into riders who cannot ride. Sadly, I bet the feedback will send WTC to find less 'good' courses and we can all ride up and down highways like in Texas.



"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Elliot | Cycle2Tri.com
Sponsors: SciCon | | Every Man Jack
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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I can't imagine not stopping if he also went down.

Then again I'm a strange one, become friendlier on race day as compared to training. It clears my mind as opposed to going terminator mode.

With that being said, outside the races I'm not so nice and I would track that f**k down via photos and time splits and do what I could whether legally or just getting him out of the sport.

There is no place for that behaviour, if you're involved in a serious accident... Stop!
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
Thanks for sharing your story. My anger at the guy is already fading but I think I will always be disappointed to not be able to see what I could have done that day. While I certainly was not going to be at the top of the AG, I was having the strongest bike segment I'd ever had, I felt great and I was having so much FUN.

I think the travel has put some extra strain on me as the pain has increased significantly starting last night. Going to the Ortho today and hopefully he'll confirm that nothing serious is wrong.

Sorry was off ST for a bunch of days with work and travel. I hope your wounds are getting better, (physically and mentally). You'll be kicking butt again. Sorry you were not able to get to your full potential on this race day. It really does suck.

To the guys on the rest of the thread, its an imperfect world and we're talking in hypotheticals on what others and each of us do in a race situation. My main point is I've seen more "leave the fallen guy there" for himself or others to figure out and carry on racing. If you come from a road bike racing background, its practically an instinct to get up from the tarmac and go regardless of who caused what (maybe a perfect example was Movistar in Friday's Vuelta stage pressing the gas pedal when Roglic was down). This is obviously not the right things to do in many situations in tri, but I've seen more of that going on, than people being actively helpful and subjugating their race to show compassion. Mainly I am calling out what I see out there. Most of you guys taking the counter view on this thread may be the real life exceptions, but I am not sure that all of you will react in a race situation how you (and I) say we would here in text.

I like Nealhe's Everest related post. I guess that's the ultimate one where climbers THINK they cannot do anything when actually they "MAY".

By the way, I don't actually hold it against another rider if we tangle and go down and the other guy gets up and moves on. To me, going down is a part of racing that can happen. Establishing who is at fault in the heat of the moment is really hard to do. Heads are not clear. Largely each guy will blame the other guy. If the other person realized that I am badly hurt and on the verge of death, hopefully he stops just for my family as I would like to return his family the same favour. But i am not sure that he may know what state I am in. Hopefully both of us can check on each other and make sure we can both move on, or if one of us can move on, stabilize the person who is there and go ride up and flag down help.

In Ed's accident everything was further complicated by it being downhill after the guy departed. If he decided to change his mind, he's not climbing back up 2km.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [MrRabbit] [ In reply to ]
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MrRabbit wrote:
I think you're off base with some of your criticisms. My position is pretty clear and I bet it's shared by most. I'd 100% stop if I was the only person around. And as soon as I felt like I wasn't useful I'd be gone. Sooner the better for all parties. I'm no doctor.

And your complaint that no one around you was yelling at the aid stations that someone was down? Well if I was cycling near a guy yelling that they're was someone in need of help I'd keep my mouth shut so people could understand him. Maybe the ones out of earshot of you were doing the same. In fact they likely were.

Racers can be decent humans too.

Hey, there were a few people approaching the aid station before me. NO ONE slowed down to inform the aid station that a rider was down. Just calling what I saw. I'm not a saint either. I did not stop my race. There was someone with the downed rider, but no ambulance there yet. I could have at least momentarily stopped and asked "can I do something". But instead I took the 'racer option' which was keep my race going till the next aid station and inform them. The really compassionate option would be to penalize my own race time, hang out make sure things were stable and then maybe be the one to seek help. I chose to keep my race alive and "kind of help", but I did not subjugate my race. AND NO ONE NEAR ME DID EITHER....and largely almost everyone else is taking the racer option.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
APKTRI wrote:
I went up and rode part of the course earlier in the week but did not actually race. The bottom of the descent (the part I rode) was gnarly and it seems the top was even worse. I can't imagine what it must have been like on race day for the men.

When will Ironman get their head out of their asses and fix obvious issues like this? Make the World Championships an actual World Championship. Get rid of roll downs at qualifying races. Win your age group and get in, if not then too bad. This race should have been capped at 1k athletes. The course would have been much safer and I can guarantee there wouldnt be as many people in serious crashes like there were this weekend.


I was talking with my buddy and I think you need to go further. Even if you just take AG winners, at 112 qualifying races, that's still over 2000 racers.

I think qualifying should just be at the regional championships. Set it so that at the WC you have something like 20-30 people in each AG and that's it.

They would have to scale back the production level of the race, and accept making less money on it, so may be a pipe dream. But it would also make it a damn prestigious race.

part of the beauty of triathlon is that amateurs can race at the same WC race as the pros. it's the only sport where it happens. a curse and a blessing. if you start making regional championships the only places where people can qualify, you start adding another factor... the wealth factor.

not everyone can afford to fly to a regional championship. i'm not sure how many people it would filter out, but i think it dilutes the competition. a lot of people qualify racing their "backyard" race.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [ahhchon] [ In reply to ]
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That's true. But if you want to limit the entries to 20-30 per age group, rather than 538 like my age group, how else do you do it?

I'm not 100% sure that limiting the field that much is the right thing to do, but it's one way to reduce the danger on courses like Nice - and I wish we had more courses like Nice.

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Ed O'Malley
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [benleg] [ In reply to ]
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benleg wrote:
Well, i think there is a difference between "stop to help" and "stop because you hit someone"

Personally, if the guy is moving, i'm not stoping, but i will tell (probably stop) the first person in a real position to help (ie: with a phone at a minimum)... if the guy is not moving... then it's different.

If you hit someone, your race is over and you have to stop until the person is on their way to hospital, otherwise you are just a bad human...


Agree, nailed it!
Last edited by: tate: Sep 15, 19 18:01
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [tate] [ In reply to ]
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In car racing, you are instructed to not stop. You radio in the accident (but on circuits, usually track marshals on every corner are on it). Marshals come on scene as appropriate, and rescue vehicles are on site asap as appropriate.

But nice would have fewer ā€œmarshalsā€ per km of road, so not apples to apples. And bikes have a lower rate of catching fire and exploding.

Make sure i am ok, and let me know you will notify staff at the next aid station if it is that bad.

Sounds like a shitshow with a bunch of bikes/riders not familiar with descending.

Riding in a peleton is not for the inexperienced, or faint of heart. Descending in any form of crowd, especially if you are used to solo riding mostly in the flats, is just asking for a big pot of extra spicy trouble...
Last edited by: Rocket_racing: Sep 15, 19 18:27
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [CPT Chaos] [ In reply to ]
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CPT Chaos wrote:

I think this course was the perfect example to show how the drive to ride indoors has turned triathletes into riders who cannot ride. Sadly, I bet the feedback will send WTC to find less 'good' courses and we can all ride up and down highways like in Texas.

I bet If you look back 3ish years on ST, weā€™d have threads on how bad triathletes are at bike handling

This thread made me feel like I would too take the moral high ground and stop. ā€œ Of course I wouldā€ I thought to myself when i read this thread on Friday PM.

But in a bike race Saturday, two crashes brought guys down near me and I didnā€™t have the slightest desire to stop. I candidly thought ā€œthat guys an idiotā€ for crashing like that, and didnā€™t second guess myself . Only after re-reading new posts on this thread did I realize the irony.

Now I didnā€™t cause the wrecks either, and I didnā€™t roll past a guy covered in blood, solo, on the side of the road. Iā€™m hopeful that Iā€™d behave differently in those situations
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [mvenneta] [ In reply to ]
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The key factor in this case is the behavior of the person that caused the crash. It would have been different if the OP was okay and able to get back up and ride off, but they weren't. The person causing the crash didn't seem to accept any responsibility in this situation.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [mvenneta] [ In reply to ]
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mvenneta wrote:

I bet If you look back 3ish years on ST, weā€™d have threads on how bad triathletes are at bike handling


An interesting thing I think I'm taking away from this is that on the whole, the actual bike handling and descending skills of the riders in this race (which admittedly represent the top 1.5-3% of triathletes) were actually very good. I think where a minority falls flat (and it doesn't take many to wreak a lot of havoc) is in their decision making - particularly decisions as they relate to descending in groups.

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Last edited by: RowToTri: Sep 16, 19 6:32
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Iā€™m glad youā€™re doing well , considering.

Body feeling better?
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
mvenneta wrote:

I bet If you look back 3ish years on ST, weā€™d have threads on how bad triathletes are at bike handling


An interesting thing I think I'm taking away from this is that on the whole, the actual bike handling and descending skills of the riders in this race (which admittedly represent the top 1.5-3% of triathletes) were actually very good. I think where a minority falls flat (and it doesn't take many to wreak a lot of havoc) is in their decision making - particularly decisions as they relate to descending in groups.

I'm not so sure that's the correct conclusion based on my observations over the years. While the selectivity of this race takes out a lot of the least skilled riders, nonetheless there aren't that many triathlons with descents as long and fast as this one, at least in the US. So those fast descending skills are not developed well by those triathletes that don't regularly do mountainous rides or fast pack riding. I think you've got a combination of:
Riders not that skilled so they are slow on the descent
Riders that are skilled and fast on the descent but take proper caution around the slower riders
Riders that are strong but not nearly as skilled as they think they are and who take unnecessary risks

I've seen plenty of riders that fall in the last category and they are perhaps the most dangerous aspect of the triathlon bike leg. They think strong legs equals good bike handling skills, they don't understand the limitations of their own skills, and they think the importance of their own race justifies putting other competitors in danger.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
I think where a minority falls flat (and it doesn't take many to wreak a lot of havoc) is in their decision making - particularly decisions as they relate to descending in groups.

When you write descending in groups, I assume this means that there were positioning violations involved? Please correct me if my assumption is wrong.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [Mark Lemmon] [ In reply to ]
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For sure there were lots of violations. But I do not think I saw anything that was an attempt to take unfair advantage. The variability in the speeds people were comfortable descending at, combined with the difficulty in passing safely meant people bunched up until they could pass. Generally it meant people were going slower than they would go if they were riding alone, not faster.

FWIW, at the penalty tent at the top of the climb, there were at least 15 guys packed into (around) it when I rode by.

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Ed O'Malley
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Replying to the thread, not to you. I'm very sorry about your crash.

FWIW, a female friend of mine also crashed on the descent at Nice, she was in one of the earlier waves. She wasn't hit by another rider, she just lost focus and hit the mountain. Two other female competitors stopped for multiple minutes, and left only once my friend urged them to. Her crash wasn't as bad and she was able to finish, after being cleared by medical and having her bike patched up.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
For sure there were lots of violations. But I do not think I saw anything that was an attempt to take unfair advantage. The variability in the speeds people were comfortable descending at, combined with the difficulty in passing safely meant people bunched up until they could pass. Generally it meant people were going slower than they would go if they were riding alone, not faster.

FWIW, at the penalty tent at the top of the climb, there were at least 15 guys packed into (around) it when I rode by.

If you cut the field in half, would that alleviate the bunching on a course like that?
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
mvenneta wrote:

I bet If you look back 3ish years on ST, weā€™d have threads on how bad triathletes are at bike handling


An interesting thing I think I'm taking away from this is that on the whole, the actual bike handling and descending skills of the riders in this race (which admittedly represent the top 1.5-3% of triathletes) were actually very good. I think where a minority falls flat (and it doesn't take many to wreak a lot of havoc) is in their decision making - particularly decisions as they relate to descending in groups.

The bold is really what my beef with this course was. The bike course itself was beautiful, and challenging. I thought the course itself was great. I would have preferred an aero road bike for it, since I was not on my aerobars for basically the entire time we were climbing or descending, but that's just for personal comfort rather than a handling issue. The course was *just* technical enough that you needed to keep your head about you coming down, but it wasn't crazy or anything. My biggest fear was someone making a dumb decision behind me and taking me out. I saw too much stupidity going on while descending. I was uncomfortable not with my own skills, which I think are pretty decent, but with everyone around me making bad moves.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [Mark Lemmon] [ In reply to ]
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Mark Lemmon wrote:
RowToTri wrote:
For sure there were lots of violations. But I do not think I saw anything that was an attempt to take unfair advantage. The variability in the speeds people were comfortable descending at, combined with the difficulty in passing safely meant people bunched up until they could pass. Generally it meant people were going slower than they would go if they were riding alone, not faster.

FWIW, at the penalty tent at the top of the climb, there were at least 15 guys packed into (around) it when I rode by.


If you cut the field in half, would that alleviate the bunching on a course like that?

I think it would.

I think they tried pretty hard to spread things out, given how big the field was. They started 10 athletes every 15 seconds for each wave. 15 minutes between the start of each wave. For the bigger waves that means essentially no time between the back of one and the start of the next. I think it took about 2 hours to get everyone started - about 3500 people.

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Ed O'Malley
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [mvenneta] [ In reply to ]
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mvenneta wrote:
Iā€™m glad youā€™re doing well , considering.

Body feeling better?

So got the MRI results today. 5 pelvic fractures, spanning both sides of the pelvis. Bone bruise on the right ball of the femur and a small labral tear.

In 8-12 weeks I should be good as new.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Geeeezzz!!
So sorry man.
Prior to race day I was cursing being in the last wave. After reading thru a bunch of the bike reviews on here........ glad to have been in the last wave and stayed on two wheels (even if my time did suck)!
* Iā€™ll stick with blaming that on the heat & stronger headwind of later afternoon! šŸ˜‰šŸ˜‰
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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ouch

2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [logella] [ In reply to ]
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I am sorry Ed was injured

With respect to recourse, what a statute says in France and getting recourse to it are two very different things.

If Ed is here, he can report it, but is any energy going to be expended in focusing on it here? In my experience no.
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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.... Time to just hit the big 'RESET' button !

Take care and rest up.

db
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [Dbeitel] [ In reply to ]
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Just a quick update- I've been running and biking for about a month and all is good with the pelvis. The shoulder injury turned out to actually be a torn rotator cuff (supraspinatus) and I've been doing pt for it for 6 weeks or so. Great news today- I've been cleared to swim! Alternating kick/swim by 25, no more than 500 total. After months of no improvement, the last two weeks it has gotten a lot better!

I can still feel the rib sometimes but nothing terrible.

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Ed O'Malley
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Glad to hear!
Thanks for the update and glad you are on the mend!
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Thats great news Ed, just in time for the 100/100!!
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
Just a quick update- I've been running and biking for about a month and all is good with the pelvis. The shoulder injury turned out to actually be a torn rotator cuff (supraspinatus) and I've been doing pt for it for 6 weeks or so. Great news today- I've been cleared to swim! Alternating kick/swim by 25, no more than 500 total. After months of no improvement, the last two weeks it has gotten a lot better!

I can still feel the rib sometimes but nothing terrible.

Hey this is super news. I was wondering if you can use the concept2 as part of your rehab. When I was run over last year by a school bus and my arm with minced meet, I was able to use the concept2 long before I could swim (I was doing legs only sets at first once my leg was better).

My family may kill me if I threaten to do the Hawaii 70.3 but you COULD see me out there with you next May especially if I close a biz deal there!
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Would love to see you there. Close that deal!

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Ed O'Malley
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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oh i'm definitely not a 100/100 guy...

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Ed O'Malley
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
oh i'm definitely not a 100/100 guy...

Well maybe go for 75/100 which I think is optimal during a tri build especially if you live somewhere that you can ride outdoors all winter. Hey, my employees are going to accuse me of trying to do deals everywhere that I want to do a 70.3. I am in Dubai in 10 days to try to build biz there and then back in 9 weeks to do the 70.3 and we have a proposal on a project over at the big Island.....so where else do I need to do a 70.3 and have an excuse to do biz haha (I was joking with Rob Gray that i am the only idiot to start an entire tech startup just to have an excuse to go to places where there are cool tri things to did LOL).

In any case, let's both get over our injuries and if 70.3 Hawaii does not sell out after I have Dubai done and assuming our proposal to the Big Island customer has legs, then maybe the stars align.

In any case hopefully by May both you and Chris Froome (another shattered pelvis guy) are in full form.

Dev
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Re: Anyone see my crash on the descent in Nice? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Positive news! I hope you have a full recovery and great 2020 season.
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