Campy Shamal 12 spoke tubular, hed 3 trispoke tubular. I have both in my garage. Reportedly the 12 spoke back in the day tested faster than the 808.

Oh wait, I can’t find tires that fit😟. Sorry carry on!

Maurice

I think there is very little difference between the aerodynamics of the top front wheels. HED, Zipp, Roval are companies I trust to make great wheels. I'm interested in investigating Swisside more but I do not know a bunch about them. Zipp I think is overpriced. HED is by far the best deal. I was convinced that Roval may actually make the fastest wheel by a small margin. A combination of their white paper on the CXL50 plus their engineers' interaction here on the slowtwitch thread about that paper where they filled in a lot of the holes in the paper I thought was great - the data looked good. They seemed quite transparent about it. They actually tested rotational drag, not just translational (I'm not aware of any other wheel company doing that, or at least not publishing results). They did a lot of work on the shape of the hub. They tested spoke nipples.

So after that I bought a CXL64 front wheel. I think there is a chance that they are the most aero by a small margin, they are the lightest, and they are very high quality. I use a HED jet + disc in combo with my Roval.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Any wheel on Cam Wurf's Bolide...

 

A disc, but not permitted for triathlons.


.

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Once, I was fast. But I got over it.

I considered the CXL64 as well. The Specialized supplier (which I have a very good relationship to) was honest enough to say that it probably has little to gain. I agree, but can ask what price he can give on a front wheel. It is just 20g lighter, but has 21 spokes instead of 24, which might give aditional gain.

I know HED is good, and probably gives the best bang for the buck. They are, however, heavier which I dont fancy in a course like Norseman. A HED 3 Spokes would be super cool, but they dont have it disc brake version.

Zipp 808 NSW is probably one of the fastest as well, but at 910g, compared to 735g for the Roval and with 24 spokes I doubt it will be a faster option for me.

Any other options?

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The fastest front wheel is probably the 2-Spoke: http://www.2-spoke.com/shop/

sent a pm

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Andy Tetmeyer (I work at HED)

If it were me I'd look at the aerocoach Aeox 75, then a Hed Jet 90, Hed jet 60, 808 NSW, 808/flo 90 or 60/Orr/a host of other 70-90mm wheels.

Pretty much in that order as well.

For most wheels the tire/tube you use is going to make more difference than if it's an Orr or a FLO or a something else

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Princeton CarbonWorks Wake 6560 Front has tested very well against all of the other wheels on this thread so far. And yes, the Wake 6560 (disc brake) front was on Wurf's Bolide TR+ at Ironman Australia and he ran the Wake 6560 Front and Rear combo in Cannes.

I have an use a 16-spoke Zipp 1080. Feels pretty fast....

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Team Zoot-Texas, and Pickle Juice

Is there any data on this? I've always considered it the wheel equivalent of 6 minute abs. The aero information they have on their website is less-than-convincing at best. I have a hard time making any sense of their CFD images. They just don't look anything like what you would expect a useful CFD simulation depicting velocity to look like. And even if I could make sense of them, without side-by-side comparison results, what could we possibly learn? And their comment that the reason the wheel is faster because of reduced surface area...

• Studying the CFD files confirmed that the much smaller and aerodynamic surface area takes the credit for this thrilling accomplishment! We already knew, of course, that using a disc wheel above a wind-speed of 3 m/s is already slowing you down a lot because of bigger exposed frontal area, but defeating a disc wheel “in its own habitat” in the velodrome is truly sensational!

Pressure drag is BY FAR dominant in wheel drag (or everything cycling for that matter). Viscous drag (skin friction) is essentially negligible. So I do not have confidence they know what they are talking about.


And they claim that disc wheels are only good at less than 3 m/s "wind speed" (whatever that means)?? Uh-huh.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/..._wheels%22_P6237304/

Yeah, that's not data. I don't know what that is.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

We bought it, we tested it and sold the Bontrager Aeolos 9 (what was the right name?)

I’ve been looking the same thing for the last six months and unfortunately there’s not a lot of published data or not any “independent” not biased data that we can trust. Every manufacturer is claiming being faster over the competitors somehow.

The closest I got in my research was the Bikeradar windtunnel test (2 years old already) which concludes that the Enve 7.8 is the fastest, marginally over the Zipp 808 and significantly faster that the Roval CLX64. However the didn’t published all the numbers, and their calculation for combined drag was kinda weird, they only provided the numbers for yaw angles of 5 and 12 degrees at 30mph wind. So, Enve 7.8 vs CLX64 - 35-49 grams advantage respectively. Meaning
3.7-5.2 watts advantage = 64-94 seconds in 180km respectively.

I also went through the Roval white paper about the CLX50 and interpolating those numbers to the CLX64, this should be the fastest. But still it was published by Roval and no other comparison to debate against.
I currently have the CLX50 disc wheelset and it’s sweet to handle, solid and quick. However I don’t have the zipps or enves to compare to, and I refuse to be bias. I believe in numbers and facts.

Personally, I am planing to get the Enve 7.8 disc front wheel as this might be the current fastest front wheel by a small margin, but I’m also aware that Enve support is bad and I’ve seen these rims are either leaking or exploding if not used with the correct tape. So I’m still little hesitant.
For some time I thought about zipp 808 or 858 but the fact they’re not able to publish a single windtunnel chart, for me that means it’s a marketing not to be trusted and worst after some others have demonstrated the new and super expensive 858 is even little slower than 808.

Spoiler alert!!
I’m also aware that there’s a manufacturer claiming to have the new fastest front wheel in the market about to be released. After checking several YouTube channels and forums, this could be either Aerocoach or Enve. Not sure, these are only rumors and we’ll see and hopefully they publish real numbers to support the “fastest” claim.

It’s us (AeroCoach) and there will definitely be numbers. Disc brake too as well as rim brake.

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

If it is faster than a disc as they claim, why does the tandem in post #1 of above thread has a disc on the rear?

Thanks :)

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That tunnel look familier ;) Do you have a date of release? And is it the fastest wheel?

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http://www.triallan.com
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I'm surprised that there aren't more front wheels with narrow flange hubs. Maybe it's on the margins of marginal gains. But there are plenty of 74mm hub options for folding bikes that could potentially be used. Surely that would work OK with a 13mm spacer on either side?

 

I do not know about wind tunnel numbers but TriRig reviewed a set of narrow hub wheels, Xtreme Carbon, here:


https://www.tririg.com/...Carbon_Wheels_Review


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Once, I was fast. But I got over it.

There is little difference between front wheels, as already mentioned. It's barely worth worrying about. I have been to the wind tunnel recently and ride a two spoke, FWIW. I think it's cool and it does not slow me down.

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Dimond Bikes Superfan

That's totally fine. And who knows, the wheel might be fast, but if it is, it's an accident.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

I just told you that I do know and it is fast.

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Dimond Bikes Superfan

Are you guys doing 21 spokes with 2x NDS lacing like Roval? At the moment, if I were running a disc brake TT bike, Roval would be my only choice for a front wheel.

It's been tried many times in the past, but those designs always disappeared after awhile. I don't know it's marketing or tech, or a little of both.

You lose stiffness with a narrow flange, and usually the spoke count is increased, which will increase the drag. Is that more than the gain from going narrow? With the industry's tendency to do things differently just for the sake of being different, I don't expect that there is much in it.

We're hoping to have orders open in about 4 weeks, there'll be a few different offerings. To be perfectly honest the most thing I'm worried about is people not believing the numbers when they see them, but hopefully we've shown thus far that we're very diligent when it comes to aero data.

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

It's relatively tricky to do and you have to design the hub specifically to fit. There are some really fun small hubs (racing wheelchair front wheels for example use a very tiny Phil Wood hub that's extremely narrow)

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

Rovals are good, that's for sure. Our disc brake fronts will be out with all the info in June.

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

You can get that stiffness back by making the flange higher - we have deflection data on our website to show the stiffness is the same/better on our hub than others:https://www.aero-coach.co.uk/...ss-road-front-wheels[/url]

As for aero it's about 1w at 45kph over a typical yaw angle range for a standard hub. It's not a lot but when we also save 1w by hiding the valve in our rims, suddenly you're 2w up on everyone even before you've started optimising the rim shape.

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

    
There might not be a single fastest wheel. From everything I've experienced and heard, wheels interact a lot with tires and forks -- probably your legs too. I wonder for example, how much a really narrow front wheel helps when the wind goes around and then just slaps into your whirling legs. Maybe you're better off with a wheel that acts more like a fairing.

That's why I would not trust tests that just stick an isolated wheel in a test rig. I also wouldn't trust tests that use a single tire across all wheels. A tire that works with one wheel might be trash on another. You gotta test the tire that each wheel mfgr thinks is best -- and then adjust for the rolling resistance.

The problem is the variability of a pedaling rider might overwhelm the differences between wheels. So IMO, the only answer is a whole lot of testing--preferably with the rider who's actually going to use the wheels. Clearly the guys at Hed, Zipp, and Specialized are all really smart and have a lot of experience. But I would particularly trust Xavier et al, because they do a lot of testing with real riders and different equipment.

To give an example of how complicated this is, I do Chung tests nearly every Saturday and Sunday a.m. when I don't have a race. I've tested the Hed Jet+9 and the Enve front against each other half a dozen times now. The Hed has been faster every time, except the last time, when I tried a different tire on the Enve (sorry, my secret and don't try to PM me for the answer). Go figure. Of course my tests are all at zero yaw, so results could differ......

BTW, the Roval tested real slow in field tests.

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My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

Hey Xavier, if it’s possible we’d like to see the numbers for your front wheel compared to the current popular wheels like Enve, Zipp, Roval, similar like the numbers you published for your rear disc comparing to Zipp and Hed, but unfortunately missing the Enve disc and Roval 321. This is why I haven’t still figured which rear disc to get. As a consumer is good to have the full picture of products available before committing for a decision.

I'm not affiliated with Aerocoach, but they do have a comparison on their website. The names of the other wheels are not mentioned, but it's pretty easy to deduce what the other wheels and brands are




For the most part a disc is a disc is a disc. aka, you are looking at maybe a couple watts between different brands. Plus depending on what bike frame you are using, one disc could be faster than another.

I'll let you in on a little secret that could help you make a decision if you are stuck between choices and are trying to get as fast as possible
Hed Disc $1150 usd
Aerocoach Disc ~$1300 usd
Roval Disc $2500 usd
Zipp Disc $2700 usd
Enve Disc $2700 usd

Buy the Hed or Aerocoach and then use some of the $1200 you save and go to a wind tunnel.

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Matt

And here you highlighted something crucial. Nearly all the big brands like Enve, Hed, Zipp and Specialized has "the fastest wheel", but they usually optimize the rims for one tire at one dimension. Hed have test of 23, 25 and 28mm on their website but only with the GP4000S. Aerocoach has the 23mm Vittoria Corsa speed and Enve uses the 25mm GP4000S (I think).

Now I ride the GP5000 clincher, but will probably change to the new Vittoria 2.0 Graphene TL when they come in stock. So what wheel will be fastest with me on my QR Prsix with those tires? Field testing is probably the only way to go, but also very difficualt to do in practice since I have to actually get the different wheels.

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http://www.triallan.com
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Was it generally a big difference?


Strange. How slow?

---

http://www.triallan.com
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Good stuff Matt, makes a lot of sense.

Also to have something in mind is in real life the fastest is not always the best option. Let’s just say a deeper 70mm wheel is marginally faster than a 60mm but the 70 is going to be harder to handle in cross wind and feel harsher in bumpy roads.

The tire selection is another variable, for example I’ve seen the corsa speed one is the fastest in rolling resistance but it seems it’s not the best in puncture resistance or grip in the corners. So in this case the fastest for a time trial race might not be the best for a long distance triathlon.

For all the possible variables is crucial to have more data from the manufacturers about the rims, tires, wind tunnel, etc. so we can make the mix for each scenario depending each athlete.

No, but the consistency was striking. Once I got the test protocol down, the Hed won every single time. I haven't seen that consistency between the Jet+9 and the H3+ -- at least not yet.




Slow enough that I didn't bother testing it anymore. More than 2 watts in every trial. FWIW, I do use the slightly unusual Oval Concepts A900 fork, which was designed for the wheels of 15 years ago. So maybe that combined with the the fact that the Roval has a super wide rim has something to do with it. As an aside, some of these rims are so wide that you have to adjust the brakes out to the point that they protrude beyond the fork.

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My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

Or even: WheelBuilder disc cover: $100.

Our recommendation for this next generation of AEOX wheels is for Corsa Speeds if you want out and out speed / time trial PB etc., but Conti GP 5000 TL for most triathlon situations. Certainly you can train on GP 5000s all day without problem, and both can be set up tubeless.

We were speccing Schwalbe Pro Ones with our wheels for a while last year, but we found that the batches were really inconsistent - sometimes they were so tight you couldn't get them over the rims, and the grip wasn't as good as the GP 5000 TLs when they arrived, so it's a no brainer really. I'm quite a fan of the Conti GP TT tyres, but of course you can't run them tubeless. Nice with latex tubes on non tubeless compatible rims though.

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

It's difficult to explore all the options for customers and you'll always have gaps - I understand it can be frustrating trying to make decisions so we do try and get as much data as we can to be helpful for riders.

As an aside we generally do all of our wheel testing in Cervelo frames as they tend to be quite consistent and representative of performance in other frames. Seeing wheel differences in different bikes is a thing but you're not going to see huge 10w swings from bike to bike with different wheels. We have Cervelos (and other frames) in our CFD optimisation protocol so that we can transfer the results across to the tunnel, track and out on the road - but we doing aero testing every single week all year round (and have done for years) and there hasn't been a bike that's thrown up anything really weird where some wheels come out far better/worse than others.

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

If the HED H3 plus tri spoke tests fast, why don’t more people run It?

Well per aerocoach's test, it tests similar to the HED Jet 6 and is slower than the HED Jet 9 (as well as aerocoach's two offerings). A number of top cyclists will use tri-spokes in TT's still. I think it's fallen out of favor with triathletes as even with the H3 plus you need to run fairly narrow tires for it to shine, and now a days people are wanting to run wider and wider tires for comfort reasons. Also, not sure how the HED 3 plus handles compared to a Jet 6 (or similar). I've heard people say they can sometimes be challenging in a cross wind, but I've never ridden them myself so I can't comment on that

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Matt

Looking forward to the new aerocoach wheels. Out of interest have you ever test a two spoke? I can kind of understand how they could potentially be aero given the rotational drag, though imagine they have other engineering issues.

We've not empirically tested them, no. I have spoken to someone who has however, they said that they weren't bad but not anything spectacular.

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

Cool thank, as a concept I can see how it might work, but of course execution is everything :)

I also heard a lot of good things about the roval but then I found the BIKE RADAR review and they basically say that the Rovals CLX 64 (Rim) are a complete disaster.
What has happend there?

https://www.youtube.com/...BH3wXzhrI&t=656s

Interesting read! https://www.hambini.com/...hich-one-is-fastest/

Dang, they burn FLO badly in that article

Edit: Also of note: 454 is much slower than a 404, a 60mm Bontrager is faster than the deeper 808 and 7.8, and SwissSide beats the 7.8 by a significant 5 watts.

[quote Pun_Times I think it's fallen out of favor with triathletes as even with the H3 plus you need to run fairly narrow tires for it to shine,[/quote]
Based on what do you draw this conclusion??

Read this entire thread, and then get back to us...
https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...el_Shootout_P6710888

Thanks for highlighting this thread!!

Can you share the datasource / comparison about Bontrager and swissside vs Enve?

Based on what do you draw this conclusion??[/quote]
I have an H3 Plus, HED says 25mm on the wheel. I’ve not ran the wheel, curious why more don’t run them.

He's just referencing the much discussed Hambini article.

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Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors

After 11 pages I can't go on. Worst reading recommendation ever!

It's only interesting in that he completely made up a bunch of data, forged a letter from some lawyers and slandered a company and it's founders...

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Haha. Sorry. (Not sorry.) :)

tl;dr - did this guy even conduct a test?

I'm curious why, if deeper is more aero, did Zipp do away with the 1080?

My surmise is that it was more of a business decision. The 808 Firecrest was faster than the 1080 pre-firecrest. The handful of seconds a 1080 Firecrest would have saved would likely have been lost in a bobble or two due to wind. I suspect Zipp didn't sell that many 1080s, so it wasn't worth the cost of new molds.

As an aside, I think the super deep fronts are extinct. The deepest wheel I can think of is the 88 from Premier.

Flo's 90 measures 94.7mm deep both front and rear

Aerocoach is coming out with a 100mm front wheel.

To go modern width at a fraction of the Shimano Pro or the modern HED costs..........anyone give the one Superteam trispoke a shot yet?

Most look like crap with a ridge on the spoke, but the one model looks really good to the naked eye in up close photos. They also even have the modern hole location for the tube and modern widths.

Anyone want to risk $250?

I have the Mavic CXR80 sitting here brand new in the box, unglued $250! Just never got around to using it, complete with tire, glue, and wheel bag

Based on what do you draw this conclusion??[/quote]
I run a Conti Supersonic 20mm on my H3+. Measures out to over 24mm on the rim.

I’ve tried a Corsa Speed 23mm and a Turbo Cotton 24mm on the wheel. The Corsa Speed and Turbo Cotton bulge out too wide on the rim, and I found handling was affected by it. The wheel has been great with the Supersonic.

Here's a bit of data on that - 45kph, Cervelo P5.

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

Really!!??

I have a 22m on it and it mates perfectly. I would expect even a 23 not to fit as well. HED suggests a 25? Where do they say this?

Hi Buzz,

I emailed them and asked the recommended size on an H3 +.

I have the wheel, but think I’m going to sell it.

I had a set of superteam Tri spokes I used to train on. There is no aero research or thought gone into their design besides a basic wing shape. The hubs in them are absolute crap with a lot of flex and play. The first rear I got the tolerance of the bearing was so loose it flopped about the place and they sent me a video of how I could remove the bearing and score the outer face with a nice to make the bearing a tighter fit. I told them you must be joking! They sent me another wheel and I trained on them about a year and sold them but they aren't aero and I wouldn't race on a set.
I race with a Hed GT3 and train on Corima 4 spokes.

hi guys, ronnie here...welcome to the workshop!

New Aerocoach wheels now in their store, a 100mm (Titan) and a 78mm (Zephyr) option - https://www.aero-coach.co.uk/...ox-titan-aero-wheels

Their aero testing:

I wonder why they kept the spoke nipples out after going through the trouble of hiding the valve

easier to service which i think makes a lot of sense given the current main market -uk -has many rough roads.
and i think its a great idea with the valve ( at the same time on the pic the valve looks a bit short and you would have to use a screw on valve i guess to pump up proper , there will likley be many dazzled faces if they have to repalce a puncture in a race and use standard co2 canister)
the other point i wonder it was said the older aerochoach 100m mm wheel was already a hair faster than the hed jed 9 so it would app
ear the new wheel is like half a watt faster than the old one and lost its aluminum breaking surface.
i think its a pity that it looks like the aluminum rim wheel is not for sale anymore.
still it's great to watch that company grow.

The claim is the new one also handles cross winds better, so in the real world that would give a lot more speed advantage than the 0.5W in testing. Of course, how you quantify cross wind stability in a way that anybody else is going to agree with is another matter entirely!

Maybe also some weight savings from going full carbon? Doesn't matter too much from a speed perspective but lighter weight is always good for the marketing department...