Is this TT per qualification only?

Yeti racer wrote:

Is this TT per qualification only?

Yes, you need to buy a license and travel to Colorado Springs. If you can afford those things, you are qualified. :-)


Seriously, all you need is a license. For the TT you can be a cat 5. For the road events you'd need to be a cat 3 unless you're 60 I believe then cat 5 is okay.


I did a bit of looking through the BRAC web site to see what races were held in Colorado Springs. If I had to guess, this is likely to be the road race course.


https://www.strava.com/routes/13429290



They held the Junior and Master state RR championship on this course last year on 8/12. Also worth noting that Pikes Peak is traditionally on this weekend. Was 8/11 last year. So if all you want to race is the TT, do that and then to the Pikes Peak fondo on the weekend. Just bring appropriate gearing for a mile at 10% at almost 14,000' above sea level.


The road course looks like a race of attrition. Not particularly hard, but will wear on you. That and it peaks out at ~7,200' above sea level. But the climb only averages about 3%.

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

Edit: I'm a slow typer. So what he said ^

You only have to qualify by being in the proper age category. RR and crit are cat 1-2-3 only for some age groups.

Word has it that the TT course will be in Fort Carson and the RR course will be AFA worlds.

Ask around the local cycling community and more info should be available. Plenty of riders with connections to the folks at USAC.

That's the truncated version of the course. Totally dictated by one climb, recovery, descent, climb again. The full Worlds course is longer, has a longer less steep climb and more rollers over the top. Much more suited to tactics.

carlosflanders wrote:

That's the truncated version of the course. Totally dictated by one climb, recovery, descent, climb again. The full Worlds course is longer, has a longer less steep climb and more rollers over the top. Much more suited to tactics.

I don't really have any knowledge, I was just taking a guess given that this is a course that is CURRENTLY being used and it's on the Air Force Academy grounds. If you're talking about the full worlds course from 1986 I am pretty sure that will not be used based on the press release from USAC.


"Riders across multiple age groups will be racing in the home of USA Cycling, Colorado Springs, Colo., on parts of the 1986 UCI Road World Championships course in August."

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

I have raced at Air Force probably five times and there have been about four different coarses. The one consistent thing about them all is that they will be a mixture of long'ish shallow climbs and maybe a couple of short punchy climbs of the 75 yard variety. Toss in one or two fast docents with a corner or two and there was probably 2 miles of dead flat stuff by the football stadium a couple years back. Nothing like the long climbs that decided the Utah and Bend races.

My guess would be that the route will be determined by what is available. They will be busy tormenting the incoming cadets in August and the fall sports teams may be practicing, so I would be surprised if they ran through campus. I think the loop you showed on Strava would limit access to the visitor center. My guess would be they would use the upper part of the Strava loop and run the route down and across the lower sports fields and by the pool, but that is a total WAG.

The one commonality is that they have never been pure climbers coarses. They are consistently hard and you will need to ride intelligently to do well, especially if it is breezy. I would guess it will be a race of attrition

I have no idea what they could do at Fort Carson for the TT. I have never been there. The outside bet would be to run the TT in South Park. Probably 20 years ago they ran a National record challenge up there. Bostick, Frye, Colby... were all there. There was new pavement, but the weather was unusually bad on both occasions. That would be a super fast coarse on a good air day.

The longer version of the course has been and is currently used in the AFA RR every April for more than a decade. Shorter version has been used in August at the Thunderbird RR for the past two years.

The full worlds had a couple of diversions but the long course is 90% of that. The short course is 70%.

We'll have to wait and see which version they use. The longer is far better for a RR, IMO. The shorter is a succession of hard hill reps.

Edit: Here's the longer course as used this April and with minor variations for many years. Runs clockwise.
https://www.strava.com/segments/6965064?filter=overall


For reference, the shorter course: Used in August 2017 and 2018 for Thunderbird RR
https://www.strava.com/segments/15801158?filter=overall

Would be great to use the long course but hard to see them shutting down most of the campus for several days.

Definitely a power climber's course. Bigger guys who can climb and have good fatigue resistance are well suited. Wind can make a huge difference. April is always windy, August much less so.

That said, the only thing I'm sure of is that Mike Carter will win his age group.

Don't have any more info about Fort Carson but my source is reliable.

I hadn't really thought of that and I thought it was funny, but ya, that is a very safe bet

Wait... Are you [grumpier.]mike Carter?

I think they require a double triangle frame, so there is that, but I cant remember back to june for sure

My guess would be that they determine which route has the crappiest pavement, then choose that one.

Oh hell no. The only thing we have in common is the first name. I bet I out-weigh him by 40-50 lbs and I certainly lack his talent.

I put my money on Grumpier Mike or Carter on a TT any day.

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BoulderCyclingCoach.com

I'm the race director for the Darkblade Systems Road Race on the Air Force Academy, one of two yearly Air Force Academy Colorado races. grumpier.mike has nailed the nature of road courses on the base. I've been trying, but I still don't know the nationals course.

As for the TT, I have no idea. I can only assume there will be some climbing involved - it's Colorado.

Michael

If you need any suggestions, I really like the northern coarse that has the short punchy climb just north of the hockey and basketball arena and then drops down in front of the stadium.

The idea that because 'it's Colorado' everything needs tailored to climbers is stupid. If they put a serious climb in the TT (like the hess TT), I hope the average field size is less than ten. I won't go and I live in CO.

Keensburg is too far away. So is Alamosa. Anything around Colorado Springs is hilly. I like Test Track Road in Pueblo, but that's probably too far away too . . . and it has a few hills.

The old Tri lake TT might be a good option. Maybe a little short for a national but the climbing is not steep and it lends itself to true TTers.

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BoulderCyclingCoach.com

Tri Lakes is nice - still hilly - but likely way too short for a national race.

My preference would be Test Track Road near the Pueblo airport, but it's probably too far from Colorado Springs to hold the TT race. Test Track would make a good 40K race.

Michael

Not that it's much of a data point, but I did elite nationals in 1987 in Denver. The TT was in Castle Rock and the RR was on the Morgul Bismark course. Those two courses are over 50 miles apart. Pueblo is only about 41 from COS according to Google Maps...

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

I will be disappointed if they use the Keenesburg course. Facilities lacking and the pavement is crappy.

I've been looking at google street view and it looks like there are a lot of flatish paved rural roads east of CO Springs. Am I getting the wrong impression?

if the pavement is crappy, you have a winner :)

Looks like average temps for that time are 70's/80's? Is that right? Any risk of really hot weather? (which I struggle in).

Oh boy, you don't want to go there. Out that way is the biggest population of over-the-top aggressive, cyclist-hating exurban hillbillies in the entire state. Propose closing down the roads for a day of TTs and they'd be at the end of their driveways with a full box of rock salt shotgun shells.

I know this sounds extreme but most people around there are real assholes.

That's why you hire cops....

And do they usually close the roads? I've never been to a race where that was the case.

50s to 80s is the range. If it is hot, it will be dry... but that isn't common in Aug. If it rains (this is monsoon season) you might get really cold (low 50s)... and get hailed on. Rain is most common in the afternoon. Aug is the least windy month.

A friend of mine from Atlanta sent me these links. Two options each for the road race and TT. Based on the account that created them I'd say that the RR and TT course will come from these links.

https://ridewithgps.com/routes/26975265

https://ridewithgps.com/routes/26975279

https://ridewithgps.com/routes/26975370

https://ridewithgps.com/routes/26975995

Both TT options have around 1,000' of climbing or so. So I don't think it will be an Watts/CdA contest. Aero of course will be important, but you're going to have to bring some horsepower also.

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

Very interesting. No uphill finish for either RR course.

That is a chunk of climbing for a TT. Pacing that is going to be really important and difficult for those combing from sea level because you will have to guess your power adjustments at altitude. I agree with your horsepower assessment AND don't bring too much extra weight. I better switch to light beer now.

I reached out to Chuck Hodge, chief of racing and events for USA Cycling, and asked about the course this morning. He was kind enough to respond immediately with the following:
We are going to be meeting with local agencies to finalize details early in 2019 - although we have preliminary agreements on our chosen course. Our goal is for a flat 20k and 40k and we are looking at certifying for records.

We will produce course maps and related information once we have our final agreements in place.

Chuck

That's pretty exciting. I like flat and fast TT courses!

Thanks.

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

Both of these two TT proposed routes are horrible. The first has like 16 corners! The Second has a very fast long down hill. Its easy to hit over 50mph on it. Last year during our Road Race there, I was running Hed Jet 6's and as the winds picked up in the last two laps, as it does in the afternoon next next to the foothills, I was getting pushed all over the place. I had to sit up and then ride back onto the group. I can only imagine how bad it could be descending at 50+ mph with a disc and deep wheels. Someone is going to get hurt really bad. Flat 20k and 40K routes that are certified would be wonderful.

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BoulderCyclingCoach.com

Yes, I'm really hoping the two courses you posted as possibilities won't be used. The Air Force Academy is at over 7000 ft in altitude and both courses have a ton of climbing. I don't believe they would be worth the time to certify for records-- as USA Cycling said they planned on doing-- since it would be really tough to crack a record on those courses. Also weren't the courses posted as possibilities 30 KM? If so, that would not make sense, since records are recognized at 40 KM and 20 KM depending upon age. But since you have a few of those national records, I don't have to tell you that! :)

I'm the Thunderbird race director. I'm pretty sure Nationals will use a different course of the Air Force Academy.

Michael

I think this is fairly accurate.

Another possibility for the TT is around Hanover (east on the prairies).

Michael

Flattish is being overly nice. Nothing is flat around Colorado Springs, but out east is flatter. I do think around Hanover is a distinct possibility - hilly, but flattish for the area

Michael.

Hot weather is possible, as is cold weather. Colorado's weather is bipolar, even on the same day.

Michael

But "flat" is relative for Colorado. I don't know anything around here that's flat like Moriarty, NM.

Michael

Flatness is nice, but if you want a fast course it's also important to have an eye to prevailing wind direction and intensity (usually increasing in the morning, and decreasing in the evening). And if there is steady wind, it's faster to have a headwind on the downhill stretch, and a tailwind on the uphill. Of course, good pavement is important. Smooth asphalt, not chipseal. Even smooth chipseal is slow.

Chipseal is the norm around here. Most of the hills out east are lumpy; there may or may not be an overall uphill or downhill direction. August is generally light on wind, but being out east, there will likely be some wind - generally a southern-ish wind, but not always, and that often changes from morning to afternoon. Expect the wind to change direction and intensity, unexpectedly too. Lake sailing in Colorado is a sailor's nightmare. There is little predictability.

Well parts of South Park are pan flat. It has been too many years since I drove over to the north end from the Springs, but that might be a possibility.

Yes. I believe years ago TT's were held around Alamosa, CO. Elevation 7,500 ft. and flat. And very fast TT 40K times.

Alamosa is 165 miles from Colorado Springs. I can't imagine they'd expect people to drive 5+ hours round trip on top of racing, and hopefully lodging/racing additional days in C.S., as great of a course as it may be.

Oh no. Of course not. Not for Nationals. But it would be a fast course if the TT were held around Alamosa.

I would go down there for a race especially if the surface was smooth. Moriarty surface is killing the times down there.

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BoulderCyclingCoach.com

FYI, Pikes Peak Hill Climb will be held on Saturday Aug 10 during Master Nats (afaik not affiliated to nats)

I saw that and I'm all over it. _IF_ the schedule is the same as last year it would be on my off day between the RR and the crit. If that's the case, I'm in. I think it will be a good opener for the crit. :-)

Based on last year's schedule, 35-39 and 40-44 men and all women's races would conflict with Pikes Peak.

Seriously, it's a fun race and a great climb. Just early as hell. I believe we started at around 7am when it was the national championship those two years.

And don't even think about not bringing a 32 tooth rear cog if you're thinking of doing it. The last 1,000' at 10% is not to be underestimated.

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

I climbed Pikes last year and didn't think the last section was too bad. It was the switchbacks right after the 12ish mile point (from the entrance station) that were the worst for me with the 14%+ grades. Personally, it made that last section seems easy in comparison.

I agree on the 11-32 though. My average cadence was around 60 I think, only averaging 6-7mph.

The race starts at Crystal Creek Resevoir at 9,000'. Is that section you are talking about after the lake? I think it might be. In that case I'd guess it's all about context. For me that last 1,000 feet, besides starting at 13k' is after about an hour at threshold. Perhaps if I just rode the climb at a more moderate pace it would be less noteworthy. I did remember thinking up to that point that "maybe I didn't need the 32 at all today" and then being happy I had it up top. Also, I probably hit the part you are mentioning after just a few miles (if that) while the group was fresh and still being conservative while you had probably been climbing for an hour by then.

I'd like to ride the whole thing from Manitou Springs one day. Seems like cheating to "only" start at 9k'.

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

Yeah, the section I'm talking about is maybe 6 miles past the lake. It's right after the guard house where they do the brake check on the way down.

Routes are posted on USA Cycling. https://www.usacycling.org/...ps/2019-masters-road

Flattish 40k and a hard road course

Not bad. Should be a fast TT if it's not windy I'd guess. The RR looks fairly hard, but it is a ways from the last climb to the finish. Though they could put the finish somewhere else if they wanted.

The crit looks like one for the sprinters with only one real corner and it being near the start.

Either way though it will be fun I think.

THanks for the heads up.

And nice job in the TT at VOS.

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

Speaking of VoS, it looks pretty similar. Non-technical out-and-back power TT (though longer of course) RR with like 12-mile laps with one climb per lap. The climb looks about 70ft "harder" than VoS, but with an average grade of 4%, still looks like an attrition climb more than an outright W/kg selection.

Thanks for the info!

I don’t quite understand the metrics that they supply on the web page, but I am guessing the max gradient it about 8.5%. The upper 1/2 of the loop is the part that I expected, but I have never done the bottom 1/2. I think it will be a very fair race. It will be hard but not a pure climbers race and I am guessing the distance won’t be too long because you can probably only get a couple of age categories on the circuit at any one time without too much mixing. This kind of limits the damage a guy like Mike Carter can do.

I think the first climb will be about 9-10 mins and the second 3.5-4 mins. Second climb is a lot steeper and shorter and I expect is where separations will occur. Pack will go hard and steady up climb 1 but not attack it. Both climbs get steeper near the top, which makes the efforts a bit more controlled. On the thunderbird RR the steep part was near the bottom so you'd do the second half totally gassed and trying to hang on.

I'd expect the race to break up into small groups that would sprint it out on the slight negative grade finish. Very hard for a solo rider to stay away with so much exposed descent.

Should be a great race. Very tough but not as hard on the flatlanders as other possible courses.

Thanks for posting!

1.5% gradient at the steepest? The TT will be a W/CdA sausage (and lady sausage) swinging contest. And for all the rumors of it being a certifiable length for records, it's shy of 40K for now.

Ya, I noticed it was slightly short also. It is a bit lumpy, and at least 7 years ago looked like rough chipseal, so maybe not ideal for speed anyway. https://www.google.com/...3D100!7i13312!8i6656

Anybody who lives in the area got a recent report and a profile?

I think people who want to set records will have to stick with Sattley and Moriarty for now, besides which I'm not aware of any "soft" 40k records currently. Anyway, you'd be at a potential disadvantage complying with UCI bike/position rules for a record attempt, given that they have not enforced those rules for years at masters nats as far as I know (and I don't expect them to start again anytime soon).

Jerseys >> records, in my opinion (and I've had one of each).

I can not complain about flat and fast for sure
Kevin , looks like we are back in same age group again
look forward to catching up

Hopefully for me I'll have a better day than in Ogden where you started behind me, caught me, flatted and then caught me again after your wheel change! Hopefully a lot better. :-)

See you in a few months.

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

Ha ha me too, don’t want to flat for sure
Not sure I will ever have legs that good again.

hopefully it's a really nice rough chipseal!!

I say in jest cuz there is finally a flattish straight TT and I will be in no shape to race this year

Reply to no one in particular:

Is there a baby masters (30-34) category? I know CX Nats is doing that now but can’t find the answer for the TT.

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Alex Arman

Strava

They dropped baby master's for road nationals after the 2011 in Bend.

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

Thanks, but DAMMIT! Now I have to wait to grow up.

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Alex Arman

Strava

You can always do amateur nationals instead. Just sayin'.

I was thinking about it. Though it’s a 5 hour flight vs 90 minute drive to the Springs.

Maybe I’ll buy a fake mustache, forge an ID, and register in the 35 AG.

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Alex Arman

Strava

Headed to Colorado Springs next Tuesday and might be able to scout the TT and road courses. Google street view show nothing but slightly rolling chipseal.

Great! Curious what the road looks like these days. Chipseal can change a lot in 7 years.


Some of the rollers are pretty significant, like here: https://www.google.com/...w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
and here: https://www.google.com/...A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
But no real climbs for sure.

Anyone know of a good place to stay? What day is the TT?

https://www.strava.com/activities/2200202496

Thanks, that's helpful!

Some climbing on the way out, a 5.5 mile section that averages ~1% with a couple short hills that go up to ~10%. The road surface looks like pretty gnarly chipseal. Notice any bad bumps or divots that need to be avoided?

The pics are from a friend. I'll talk to him this week and get any more details. Looks like some rough chip seal alright. You'll be right at home!

curious if you got any further info. e.g., how is the surface compared to the rough section on last year's course (2018, Augusta) after the right turn. I think that would be torture for 40k.

I rode the course two weeks ago. The pavement is below average but better than the stretch of asphalt after the turn at nationals last year. The course is not flat. At least its not flat to somebody like me from Louisiana. There are few flat sections and it seems you are either going up a short hill or going down one. In my opinion the course is similar to the one in South Carolina about 3 years ago only with worse asphalt.

yes, but SC had that 95% humidity going for it.

(thanks for the info Tim)

Thanks for the info! I was hoping they'd picked that road because it was scheduled to be resurfaced this year. Guess it could still happen, but new chipseal is often worse than old.

Planning to make the trip down and check out the course soon.

btw, at the CO state champs last week, a bunch of guys from Indiana (Gary P & crew) and others turned up and blitzed the Keenesburg course. I think the field in the 60+in particular was tougher than will be at Natz.

This is the only regular 40k in CO, most TTs are in the 20-30 min duration. Riders tend to have aggressive or not well-fitted positions that they can tolerate for the shorter time but will often blow up on a 40k. Times were all over the place.

Has anyone been down to this course recently? Work schedule has had me doing Google Streetview recons only. Hoping for the latest road surface info.

I rode most of it yesterday. The surface isn’t smooth by any stretch of the imagination, but it’s better than Keenesburg or Moriarty.

The rollers (predominantly up on the way out) weren’t too bad in the 4-5 mph southerly winds I experienced, but if we run into 12-14 mph winds out of the east like those forecasted for later this week, I imagine some folks will be small ringing it up the longer ones.

Dammit... I only got a 58... ;)

Thanks for the info! Really, it's better than Moriarty? It looks like really chunky chipseal from the photos. Unless they did something to it recently?

Any potholes serious enough to worry about? That's one thing I appreciate about Moriarty; don't really need to worry about dodging stuff like that.

I haven’t been to Moriarty in a few years, but my memory is that there were quite a few expansion cracks and rough patches along the edge.

There are a few rough sections along the road’s edge, but unless you’re hugging the edge you won’t have any issues. The chip seal may be slower than some will like, but you won’t worry about rattling fillings loose... I didn’t find the road surface to be a big deal. Depending on wind speed/direction the wind will either be no big deal or a huge deal. The way CO weather varies, we may not know what to expect until you’re in the start queue

This is great information. Thanks.

I looked at some local weather stations and you are correct! Wind up to heinous levels can pop up suddenly, even in the morning. I guess that area (the desert plains well east of the mountains) is the birthplace of tornadoes, so wind can be unpredictable. It can be unpredictably hot as well. Yesterday it was 90 and pretty humid at 8:30am.

Some false advertising here: "Additionally, new for 2019, USA Cycling will offer a certified 20k and 40k time trial course on Hanover Highway/Myers Rd. south of Colorado Springs - perfect for setting new national records."
https://coloradospringssports.org/...sters-road-nationals

It's shy of 40k per their own map, plus it's far too hilly and poor pavement to be a good record course anyway.

The tech guide details the last 3K, which differ from the originally posted route. It now finishes west of the intersection of Demmler Rd. Probably 40K now.

I think you are right! Looks like they moved the start farther west as well.

"The Time Trial start is located on Myers Rd just to the east of S Peyton HwyParking will be on the shoulders of S Peyton Hwy and on the shoulders of Myers Rd west of S Peyton HwyPacket pickup will be located at the intersection of Myers RD and S Peyton Hwy on the east side"

There is no way that they would not be able to have a certified course. Its a straight shot, that's the minimum they could do.


And as far as 'perfect for setting new national records' - I don't think so ....

interesting that the RWGPS route (linked from the USAC site) shows 411 feet elevation gain/loss, and not much in the way of grades, while the Strava route shows 741 ft with some steeper pitches.

It's not so bad for the 20k riders. The elevation map is pretty useless, as it misses all the grade detail. There are 4 short climbs on the 40k course with ~5-6% grade, three in succession starting near the 10k point and a little kick at the end of the long gradual climb before the turn.

It will be interesting to hear the comments on the course, and the venue itself !!!!

I unfortunately hit a pothole hard while riding the course Wed, and found out that night that my steerer was cracked... so I didn't race. There were a lot of potholes, and some very hard to see in time on the fast downhill-tailwind parts. The road surface was good for chipseal though; small aggregate so not too rough.

From the weather station nearby it looks like a strong east wind developed and was over 20mph by noon. This meant an uphill into a strong wind for anyone starting around then or later. Times were slow. Earlier riders might have experienced a small benefit from the wind, though.

Congratulations to grumpier.mike for easily winning the 55-59 age group! That's the only age group I have the results for.

Way, way hotter than expected. Didn't really notice the wind until I checked my speeds after and was wondering why I was so thirsty, too busy trying to keep the sweat out of my eyes during. Uphills were exceptionally brutal and humbling. Some dogawful potholes out there and rough chipseal. Had a lousy race myself but I know what to work on. A pity, because this course suits me perfectly. Plenty of hard grinding on the out and pedalling at high rpm on the return

It appears that a few national records were set. One 50+ dude did a 49:36 - which I assume is a record.

Highlights of the day were running over a deceased rattlesnake with the bike, a cow wandering around on a side road looking for shade and all the shot-up road signs. Don't get out to the boonies often enough.

Haven't been at natz before, but the organization seemed good. I think they could have been a bit more thorough with the tech document - elevation profiles are a bit off and it's weird how they shift between kms and miles arbitrarily.

 

Live and archived results via this link: http://www.livelynxresults.com/...ace.php?eventid=7410

google one2go event services if this doesn't work

Kevin Metcalfe's 50-54 record still stands, I think its 49:28 or 49:29. The only 40k record that was broke (I think) was the 50-54 Woman, by like 3 minutes by Julie Emmerman.

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BoulderCyclingCoach.com

It was my team mate Dan Bryant who almost broke my record. I told him how bad I felt that he didn't break it. :-)

I found that to be a really tough TT. Lumpy courses like that aren't my favorite. I suffered a lot and was pleasantly surprised to end up in 3rd.

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

Thanks for the link! This might be of interest also: https://www.strava.com/...16688?filter=overall

I noticed that Mike has the KOM for the return leg but is 3min down on the overall. Guess the wind wasn't too bad for those who started earlier. Jadon Jaeger's 387W average is astounding at that altitude.

You mentioned that it was hotter than expected, but it was cooler than it had been on prior days.

https://www.usacycling.org/article/three-records-fall-during-first-day-of-masters-road


Three records were set.


Apologies to Kevin for underestimating his record, I knew he had beaten the 50 min mark but didn't realize he had smashed it by more than 30 secs and that Dan's time wasn't a record.


Temp wise, It was a few degrees cooler in the shade than previous days, but I found the direct sun much more oppressive than expected and the wind dried me out. Picked up some nasty sunburn on a couple of patches where I missed applying sunscreen properly.


Return leg was very, very fast and tucking and coasting may have been more efficient in several spots. 30 mph average on the return would be MOP.


Mike's data is astonishing. Seriously slippery character.